Episode 193 - Nabia Jenkins-Johnston - Leaders On Leadership

As a leader, you may find yourself standing alone, making tough decisions that require courage and conviction. This episode’s guest has shown that and more, effectively navigating the price of leadership. Join Nabia Jenkins-Johnston, Head of Content and Brand Strategy at The Expert Series' ETP Forum hosted by ETF Global, as she explores the profound challenges faced by leaders, including loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. She shares personal insights and practical strategies to overcome these obstacles. Discover how to maintain your identity, embrace vulnerability, and prioritize self-care while leading with compassion and authenticity. This episode offers valuable lessons for leaders at all levels, inspiring you to stay true to yourself and make a lasting impact.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Nabia Jenkins-Johnston - Leaders on Leadership

Thank you so much for joining the show where we pull back the curtain on leadership and we talk with leaders of all ages and stages about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. I am excited to introduce to you our newest guest. Her name is Nabia Jenkins-Johnston. Nabia, welcome. 

Thank you so much, Dr. Jones. This is quite a pleasure. I've been looking forward to it.

Thank you so much. for this interview, please call me Tracey. I so appreciate the honor of the doctor because I did earn itm but thank you. I really appreciate that.

You certainly did. I will call you Tracey, though. I just need to remind everyone, Dr. Jones. 

Now you see, everybody, why I love her so much but let me tell you about Nabia. She is the head of content and brand strategy, leading events at the expert series ETP Forum, which is hosted by ETF Global. She's going to unpack what those acronyms mean. Her work guides innovation, creating opportunities for financial service professionals to connect and grow within the ETP ecosystem. She is a storyteller, managing the delivery of concise, emotional, and thoughtful work, both strategically and creatively, bringing human stories to the stage in person, in print, and on screen. Nabia, I can’t wait to learn more about what you're doing and introduce you to our readers.

Thank you so much, Tracey. It's exciting. I'm excited to be here. I think that your message is incredible. Happy to jump in and answer any questions and just talk about my experience. 

Wonderful. I want to tell our readers, because they always wonder, “Tracey, how do you meet all these great people?” By going to tremendous events. In September 2024, I was in downtown Philly for an event with the American College of Financial Services. Our readers know I'm involved with them with the Center for Military and Veterans Affairs. They did a Soldier Citizen Award. We had one day of leadership speakers. Then we had an event in the evening. 

While we were listening to some of these tremendous speakers, I looked over at another table because this fascinating woman asked a question and I thought, “Huh,” and it was Nabia. Our eyes locked and we connected during one of the breaks and the rest was history. We connected at the event that evening. We exchanged cards. We chatted since then. I asked her to come and be a guest on the podcast. Nabia, before we get started, can you explain to our readers what ETP and ETF Global, what that is, and what that entails?

ETP Forum And ETF Global

I think that one of the things you highlight in your experience and mission is the importance of bringing people together, essentially. I also believe that we learn the most when we are connected, iron sharpening iron. The ETP forum has been running for about 12 years. This is going into its 13th year. The ETP forum is an opportunity for folks in the ETF ecosystem. 

ETP stands for Exchange Traded Products, not just ETFs, but the entire ecosystem, which I really believe is marked by essentially giving choice to our investors, the choice to make decisions on investing that are based on their highest interests, their thoughts about the future, where they feel there will be growth in technology, but doing that in a way that feels a bit safer, because essentially, ETPs and ETF products in general, allow you to make investments with a little bit of a cushion. You have a basket according to the interest that you have. 

Those interests may be what we've called ESG. They may be socially focused. They may mean that we're excluding items. I don't want to invest in items that would maybe highlight alcohol or maybe I think that crypto is the future, but it's been a little turbulent, so let's do something that spreads the risk out across crypto products. The forum essentially has been quality first, focused on incredible content, great speakers like yourself, and connecting the financial advisors with the producers of these products so that they're making qualified decisions. 

You told us what ETP stands for. What does ETF stand for? 

Exchange Traded Funds. A type of ETP.

For late people like me, because I'm not from this world, but I'm getting acquainted with it, all of us have wealth that we're trying to build and invest, so we can use and be good stewards of all the great gifts that we have been given. Really, this is in the financial, she said, hooking financial advisor with the producer of the products. I love the fact, especially nowadays, because I've had some people on the show that talk about value congruence for your money. 

You want your money to go to organizations and away from entities that you don't want to support. I think that it's so incredible today that investors are getting more savvy and the producers of products are aware of this and connecting the right people because I work a lot in the nonprofit space and it's all about dialing into the people that get excited about the mission that you're promoting. 

Mission first, principles first, priorities first. 

Loneliness

Nabia, my father wrote this speech, The Price of Leadership, many years ago, and it's probably one of the most downloaded events. We still sell the little booklet where he talks about what it really takes to pay the price of leadership. Leadership is not for the weak or the faint of heart. In it, he shares four distinct things that you are going to have to pay in order to truly be a leader and not, as I call them, a LINO, a Leader In Name Only because we know there are many of them out there. 

The first thing he talks about, Nabia, is loneliness. We've heard that it's lonely at the top and heavy is the head that wears the crown. Can you unpack what loneliness means to you as a leader, maybe a time when you've experienced it, how you got through it, and what you'd like to tell our readers about loneliness?

I appreciate the opportunity to speak about leadership from a non-fluffy Rose-colored lens perspective, and I think loneliness is absolutely the place to start. One of the things that you mentioned a bit earlier, Tracey, is the importance of perhaps a calling. The idea is that we are essentially doing our life's work, and maybe that starts very young. Maybe that's not something that is just about when we get into positions of leadership, but it has to do with a mindset that is really about being unique and unafraid. 

I think that from childhood, that can mean that you are a little lonely. You may not be the most, excuse me, Tracey. As you know, I am in London and my trip has caused a little bit of a frog in my throat. The loneliness may manifest as not being the most popular kid or being the most popular in a group when you're an adult. I am thankful to say that I have gone through seasons where I felt different. I felt unique. I am West African. I'm originally from Sierra Leone. We're back and forth in the United States. 

As I got older, we made the decision to make this permanent. I experienced quite a few things in my childhood that really set me apart. I was a Sierra Leonean kid who spoke English but was taught to say, sir and madam to all of my teachers. That was not something that was necessarily common in my third or fourth-grade classroom. I was marked by being an immigrant and by automatically being curious in the sense that everyone is curious about what is different. I am thankful for the times when I had to adjust to not having comfort in the form of being the popular vote. 

There are times when you will have to learn how to stand on what you believe in, even if you're standing all alone. I think that that's something where, as much as I have had the benefit of an incredible network as I've gotten older. In the beginning, I learned that lesson because of the opportunity to travel and stand and be a little bit different. Some of the techniques I learned from are things that I still use to this day when I'm called to speak at a meeting and present my work as we all are. 

There are times when you will have to learn how to stand on what you believe even if you're standing all alone.

When I am asked those questions, maybe you get asked when you're presenting a research paper and you're grilled or drilled. The memory of standing with myself and my higher power the entire time reminds me that that's still how I'm standing, and it's how we continue to stand. Regardless of who's around us now, it's you and your higher power.

I love it. In leadership literature, what you talk about is called personal agency. You are your own agent. People say, “Do you have an agent?” “Yeah, it's me.” Nobody's better than me because I know me. I've got all my skin in the game, literally, and figured out this. There's a beautiful term. I love that you talked about young people because now, you look at people, so many young people are in this stage of their lack of self-identity. They lack their self-competence. There are many, many root causes for that. 

I'm so thankful that you talked about your childhood and realizing different is good. Who wants to be like everybody else? We all talk about diversity and inclusion, and I want to be included, but I have always loved being typically the only woman in the room. I was like, this is cool because you hit the curiosity thing. If you walk in and think, everybody's against me because I don't look like them, that's what you're going to manifest back. I was always like, but why wouldn't they want to ask me because I'm the only one like me? I think that's a beautiful way. I also had parents, probably like you, that realized they were different. 

My father realized he was different educationally, upbringing, bloodline, everything. He was always like, “It's good to be different. You are different.” Don't have an issue with that. I love that you talk about loneliness and dealing with it because it comes to all of us. Look, we have people who are adored by millions committing suicide because of loneliness. You're in London, the UK. I just heard it has a ministry of loneliness. It's not good loneliness. It's depressing. It's hopelessness. I love that you talked about how you have to own yourself first as a leader because there will be times when no one will be there standing with you. 

There's a leader and I remember the quote before I remember the leader at certain times. I guess that's abuse that says that if we grow fat off of the praise of others, then we'll starve when it's removed. Actually TD Jakes. That's the quote. If we go fat off the praise of others, we'll starve. Exactly. We'll starve when it's removed. It's a diet. It's a diet, but it's worth it. 

Weariness

I love it. Now, we talked about loneliness. The next thing Charles talked about was weariness. It's tough. You have to be at the top of your game at all times, even when you're not feeling it because people are looking to you. He also talked about how, a lot of times, you may be the one doing the work of 10 people because not everybody is as self-motivated as you. Nabia, how do you deal with weariness and staying strong? 

I will first admit that I could use all the advice that I could get unweariness both from the audience and from yourself and anyone else who cares to share because I think that part of when we talk about the price of leadership, being tired is probably the number one most common in my opinion and that may be as a result of hitting high standards and not having a lot of forgiveness from the environment. Sometimes, the timelines. The deadlines don't allow you to be as balanced as we'd all like to be, stop when we need to, and take moments when we need to cancel things when we need to. 

I think that even in the midst of that weariness, which I absolutely experienced, especially when I'm trying to start something new, taking on a new goal, a new task, a new element of something I've done before, I am really fighting myself with the expectations I'm setting for how quickly I need to master a new task, a new skill. I have found that it's sometimes the cost that I'm paying to be whatever success looks like, whatever leadership looks like. One thing I can say that I am learning is that here goes another quote. 

This one's by Dr. Seuss. I believe the quote, if I remember it correctly, says, “Those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter.” Essentially, I take that to mean that if the folks around you, if the system around you, can’t allow you to be human, I'm going to bank on the fact that in a little while, you'll see that there's no amount of work, no amount of exchange in terms of weariness that will gain that approval. It's important to remember to choose carefully who you're reporting to, who you're being, and who's asking things of you because good leaders, we're good leaders, but the leaders that we're reporting to, we're all answering to someone, they need to prioritize your humanity. 

Leadership: If the folks and the system around you cannot allow you to be human, then no amount of work and amount of exchange in terms of weariness will gain that approval.

They need to care about you in a sense, sometimes more than you care about yourself, which is another thing I have learned from you, Tracey, that a leader needs to be more concerned about the success of those they are taking care of. I think that that's something I've learned: if you push yourself and do everything you can, that is all you can ask of yourself. Folks who are aware of your value will be happy with the output, even if it's not perfect. 

That's a hard pill. It's a hard lesson to say, “Sometimes I'm going to fail. Sometimes I'm going to be tired. Sometimes I'm going to get sick, but guess what? You will value who I am and the effort that I put forth.” To sum it all up, my baseline for success is that I have done everything I need to do, not that I have made someone else feel like I accomplished everything they thought I would.

I'm glad I have this recorded because I wrote down about ten unbelievable bullets. Nabia, thank you for that. You had asked about input. The first word out of your mouth is forgiveness. Weariness, there's good weary, like when I would go to war, go to bed, and go, “We did everything we could to get the bad guy.” Then there's that weariness, just like loneliness, there's good and bad loneliness, and there's good and bad weariness. You talked about forgiveness. I think for our leaders out there, Charles wrote a book called, Forgiveness is Tremendous because if there's somebody that had some things that he could have held onto his whole life. 

I tell people, “Charles, if he didn't find God, he could have gone become Jimmy Hoffa or he could have been totally tremendous. Honestly, because he had so many rotten things done to him. He wrote a book called Forgiveness is Tremendous. That I'm going to get you back or I'm going to create this enterprise of vengeance or manipulation, that cult of personality, it's a real thing. Forgiveness. For our readers out there, and that first word you said, a lot of our weariness, if we really unpack it, we haven't forgiven others or we haven't forgiven ourselves. 

You hold onto that, you dream about it, you have nightmares about it, and you wake up tired. You just got to relinquish that. If you want some tips for that, you can read Forgiveness is Tremendous because it's phenomenal. I love that you talked about deadlines, but we had a guest on our show and they said, “The root of all our heartbreak is expectation.” We need to get rid of expectations. You can have goals, but expectations set us up for failure every time. Goals are the outcome of what we want.

I can’t even control the outcome. You talked about it, but I can control the processes and I can control my performance. That's it. These expectations are the root of all disappointment. Disappointment is a self-imposed emotion. Somebody also told me that. They're like, “If you're disappointed, that's on you.” I'm like, “I'm not going to say that anymore.”I'm thankful cause I have to own that stuff. I love that you talked about getting rid of that. I love that. Who are you reporting to? 

The people who love us. I love that you see this at your youthful age because some people at my older age still struggle with, “Somebody says that I disappointed them or let them down.” None of us really care about one another. Disappointment is a jagged word that you cloak on somebody to try and diminish them. All we can do is the best that we can do to help me, but if you're going to critique me, you're not prioritizing me as a human being as a work in progress. 

This is amazing. Excellent thinking. I'm happy that I asked because I've gained a lot just from listening to you. Our lives are so much bigger than whatever project we're leading, whether that's an organization or being a leader at our jobs. It is important to remember that just because you are “failing” or not living up to someone's standard in one area or another doesn't mean that that's your whole being. That's your whole life. We're often tasked, especially as women, with being mothers, wives, and daughters. There were so many things other than our role. I think that's another thing listening to you that just came to mind. We have to ask ourselves what success looks like as a whole.

Our lives are so much bigger than whatever project we're leading.

I met Nabia and I'm going to say something else as far as weariness and the women juggling everything. If you're tired, put some concealer on. Do you know what I'm saying? When I met her, obviously, weariness comes from physical stamina, not just mental and spiritual, but we're still in this mortal coil. We're going back to dust. If we're distilled down, we're worth about 23 cents in minerals and stuff like that. We have infinite value in God's eyes, but basically, this mortal coil is nothing. 

We still have to take care of it because we have to run the race strong. Nabia, when I saw her, she presented well and looked healthy and clear of mind. I watched her ask questions, engaging, clear, sparkly eyes. I tell people, too, “I know you may be tired, but do everything you can to present well because she looked the part.” If we don't take care of our outward appearance, we're going to set ourselves back. It's going to be more difficult. Actually, in implicit leadership theory, where we have our idea of what an ideal leader looks like, attractiveness is one of the categories and I don't mean good looking. What I mean is how put together you are. 

Do you look like a leader? I grew up probably like you, with people who taught me manners, were well appointed, well healed, and just looked great and not in a like they looked masculine and feminine. They didn't look sexual. They looked together like good people. Sorry, I just stepped on my cat's tail. If we focus on this, a lot of times, my point is if you don't do it, you honestly, you're working against yourself. 

I know it takes extra effort to try on your outfits before you go before a meeting and make sure everything looks good. If you're sitting on a stage, make sure everything lays good, you know what I'm saying? It's really worth it because that's one of the things in addition to how you greeted me, your warmth, your persona, and your presence. I think a lot of times, even though we may be barely hanging on there, we still have to still have to present well. 

I really appreciate that. I've been thinking about this, Tracey, if it’s okay to say my side of meeting you quickly? I am honored to be part of the American College of Financial Planning from the perspective of both being a student. Currently enrolled in a wealth management certified professional course, but also engaging as an advisory board member for the Next Generation Task Force, which essentially seeks to, I like to say study, almost study what it takes to create retention for financial advisors, for finance leaders, how do we keep the great people that we hire? 

Obviously, the recruitment and each cohort in the advisory council works on their passion, whether that's retention, cultivation, or recruitment. I was asked just off the cuff, “Would you like to attend this event?” I said, “Sure.” Not having ever been part of a military summit before. I have said this to you before, but I'd like to say again that it was probably one of my most enjoyable days and nights because we also had a lovely dinner. I enjoyed all of the content, but I especially enjoyed being around great people. 

Meeting Tracey, she talks about you, gives great compliments, and I'm very appreciative, but she outshone me completely in her kindness and warmth. That makes such a difference to people. It makes a difference when they are maybe doing something for the first time, but it also says so much about her leadership because folks who are truly centered and strong and know who they are, are not afraid to give that away, to give that word away. I just wanted to say thank you for that, Tracey. 

Leadership: Folks who are truly centered, strong, and know who they are are not afraid to give kindness away.

Abandonment

Thank you. Thank you for that tremendous feedback, Nabia. I truly appreciate it. We talked about loneliness. We talked about weariness. The next thing Charles talked about is abandonment. Abandonment, again, there's good abandonment and there's bad abandonment, fear of abandonment, abandoning pets, abandoning your children, not good, but what Charles talked about in abandonment was he would say, “I spend more time in a day thinking about what I like and want to think about instead of what I ought and need to think about.” 

For him, abandonment is this pruning, the singularity, this hyper-focus. How do you, Nabia, with all the things that people probably see you and are like, “Let's get her involved in this thing.” How do you stay focused so you can pour into the roles and the organizations that are the highest and best use of your time?

I like to think on my past and to think about all of the lessons I've learned because, in certain moments, things seem so important. In retrospect, we know that hindsight is 20-20. In retrospect, we remember the things that are of true value to us. I worked for the AFL-CIO for a period of time, really learning incredible skills and learning incredible leadership skills.

One of the things that I will always take away from that amazing experience is that we are here to replicate positivity, essentially. If in someone that's on your team you see great qualities and a couple of things that may not be perfect, the idea is to emphasize what is positive and to give solutions for the things that perhaps are challenges. 

When I think about what is important every day, the connections I make with my team, with one-on-one conversations that maybe just happen as we all have meetings every day, you meet someone for the first time, I think about what it is that I'm investing because at the end of the day, that's what's going to really create added value, but it's also going to be what's going to grow. All of my weaknesses. All of the disappointing things. Those things are not necessarily going to bear any fruit. If I can make a connection and invest in something, plant a seed, that's what I want to focus on. For me, when we talk about focus, that's what I want to be doing. I want to be planting a seed.

I love that. I love that you talked about one of my favorite parables. I was reading John where Jesus talks about, “I'm the vine and you are the branches and we need to prune away things that are not of value or serving us or are dead, diseased, and dying.” Past experiences are a huge part of what we are. When you draw back to your previous jobs where you were just taught, it's almost like you talked about a beautiful mindfulness that every conversation I have with this individual, yes, we have all the results and we're here for a reason in the bottom line and the shareholders. 

Right now, you talked about it to replicate the positivity. A lot of times, we get too far. Our brains are everywhere rather than in being present with that person. We're not able to encourage growth because we're so scattered. You shared a really unique perspective on abandonment. I love that you take every moment and are mindful about pouring into that and investing in it. People say, “What if it doesn't grow?” As Ken Blanchard would say, “Then we help them to the competition.” 

Everybody has a pearl in them, but if you're not going to be open or grow, that's fine. That's your choice. Free will, baby. I think we lose the majority of people because we just don't spend the time tending and caring for them, which is really at the root of all leadership. Again, I was always told we don't grow our business, we grow people. People grow. A business is nothing. People say, “This church is bad, this religion is bad, this party is bad.” It's the name of something. We need to look at the individuals. It's all about one-on-one. That's how life is lived. Your comments just made me really think about that. Sister, on to the next one. Vision. Where there is no vision, the people perish. 

I would sit there like with these wealth planners growing up or these big motivational speakers like Norman Vincent Peale and Zig Ziglar, and no. I'm just like, “Obviously, these guys are successful because they're visionaries”. I'm just a little Tracey and I don't think I'm a visionary. I'm good at a lot of stuff. I didn't like the lack of self-esteem, but they think differently, like Elon Musk or Steve Jobs. 

My dad's like, “Tracey, vision is just seeing what needs to be done and doing it.” I'm like, “I think I could do that.” It was very strategic, but also with a real tactical, pragmatic thing to it. Can you share, Nabia? You've obviously moved to different roles in your career, and what do you have next? How do you cultivate your own personal and professional vision? 

Personal And Professional Vision

As you were speaking, I thought about different ways to define vision. You mentioned where there is no vision that people perish. Write the vision and make it plain. Another great quote. The idea that perhaps vision is bigger than us is something that's comforting. When I mean that from the perspective, both of having a dream, something literally dropped into your mind, dropped into your soul, something maybe you feel almost like you can’t remember, not thinking that way, it was just always with you, whether it is a calling, something that's pulling you forward, and so it's bigger than you in that way, or it's something that is created with the people around you. 

It's one of the biggest joys in my life to see maybe the start of an idea be really developed by having input from those that are around you. When I think about vision and my process, you talk about your dad and how important it is to think about what needs to be done, know what needs to be done, and then do it. That's how we define vision in our everyday lives for projects. You also mentioned what it means to have your own personal vision. It's something I don't talk about a lot, but I'm going to talk about that here briefly. 

My hair, I was talking about Sinead O'Connor with some family and thinking about what it meant to be a woman and what it meant to be strong. There were times in my life when I really felt like how brave is it of Sinead O'Connor to cut her hair off or whatever it is. As silly and as simple as it is, I think about looking at who you have always wanted to be. We don't need to look around. That doesn't have to be something that is a group project to say, what is beautiful to you? What is strength to you? What does that look like? 

Who you always wanted to be doesn't have to be a group project.

What does happiness look like to you? I have made a large focus on thinking to myself, let's not just survive. Let's thrive by remembering what your favorite place in the world is and what your favorite experiences have been. Let's pack each day with value based on your assessment. It can feel indulgent, but it's like if you wanted to cut your hair, cut it. If you love apple pie, bake it. If you like those shoes within reason, buy them. I think taking the time to reassess outside of all of these distractions is what makes me truly happy and buzzing, and knowing that it's not selfish, it's not self-centered, it's focused. 

That helps me to make every decision align because it does go out of alignment and realign to my highest self, my highest and best self. As a person, I'm top of the charts. I am the highest authority in my own life. That's what I would say is like reassessing and writing that down. I love Italy. It's probably the place where I've always said that one day I would want to live in Italy. What are we doing towards that goal? 

I love that. I love that you said being you is not a group project. I love that. What makes you buzz? You know what, Nabia? Being you is not a group project, but doing you is. You know what I'm saying? I was listening to a podcast. The guy said there are two things that are involved in our life. I would say from a perspective, “What do you want and how do you get it?” What do you want, he calls it your mirror because a lot of people, I want to do this and they start getting ahead. 

You have to get in front of the mirror. This takes so much time, but this is 90% of the groundwork. As you said, you have to understand who you are, what you're gifted at genetically, experientially, and spiritually, and what are you, who are you. We have all these great people who have poured into us and given us our sense of identity that we've gotten through others, but who we are. Get in front of that mirror. Then the second thing he said was, “Then you look out the window.” That's where you pull the resources from the books, the connections, the means, the money, the training, and the mentorship. 

That's where you pour it in. It's this beautiful thing. Before you go, a lot of times, we want to look out the window. We think about vision. What am I going to do? Bring it back. As you said, who am I going to be? That's why people spend decade upon decade doing great stuff, but they still don't know what they really want to do or their highest calling of service. Now, that being said, sometimes that hits us like a bolt of thunder. 

A few of us that's happened to, not me. For most of us, it's like a gradual dawn. It's taken me 61 years to look in the mirror every day and go, I get you now, I get you more. I love you more than I did yesterday than I did yesterday. I know you better than I did. For most of us, it is like the sun's rising. It's a gradual illumination versus, but some people do know right away, “This is who you are and this is what you're going to do.” I love that you talked about what makes you buzz and doing or being you first versus doing you. 

That is vision, but so many times we run, we start looking at everything out there, what everybody else is doing. Will I have to be like them or I'm going to miss the bandwagon or I should have bought crypto because now it's $62,000? Stop. Are you really a girl? Are you just doing this because everybody else is doing it thing? I really appreciate that insight because you can’t see vision until you can look at yourself and know, “What does that mean? 

Perfect, Tracey. 

What does it mean? You just encouraged me. I just love that. I love that you said you take comfort that it's bigger than us. Yes, it's about who we are, but integrating that into the world because you just don't sit there. As kids, we had that little hymn, “This little light of mine, I'm going to let it shine.” I did under a bushel, no. We don't just sit there and say, “I got a vision. Nobody's going to know about it.” It's bigger than us. Your vision was given as you talked about and abandonment to encourage and share with as many people and synergize it with the rest of humanity to make the world a better place. That's all I have to say about that. 

Tracey, I love it. Love it. 

Sister, we did loneliness, we did weariness, abandonment, and vision. Nabia, is there anything else that you would like to share with our readers as far as your wealth of leadership that you would like to share with them?

I am reminded by so many others, including Tracey, that leadership is about servanthood. We talk about servant leadership. If I go out of alignment, I think literally every day is about getting back into alignment, waking up back into alignment. The one thought most helpful for me is that you are a servant. You are a servant and you are here to serve the needs of your team. You are here to serve the needs of whatever project you are leading. You're here essentially surrounded by leadership opportunities. Whether we are, as you said, hopefully not LINOs, correct me.

Leadership: Leadership is about servanthood.

Leaders In Name Only. Yeah, we're not LINOs. 

Leaders In Name Only. Hopefully, we're not LINOs, but even if we don't have the name, even if we don't have the title, which is never what's important anyway, even if we're classically not seen as the leader when we're doing the bake sale at church and we're putting together wonderful items for charity. The leadership opportunity is there to work on those skills by essentially, as you said, finding what needs to be done and doing it. That would be the last thing that I have to say is just we're sharpened daily.

I love that. You really tied that back nicely into vision. You're a pro, sister. Well done. Thank you. It is. I never thought about that quote as the ultimate servanthood. It is. Just find it and do it. Look in that mirror, look out that window, and call out to who you need to do it with. 

I've learned so much. 

So am I. I'm going to go down and start blogging because I got all this stuff. Where do I start? Where do I start? Nabia. I cannot thank you enough for sharing this with our readers, and I look forward to many more connections. I look forward to meeting you in person, either in Philly or New York City soon. Coming up here and visiting, but I just want to thank you for your heart for what you do and just your tremendous spirit. Your parents must be so proud of you. You're just amazing. 

That is so sweet. I can’t wait to go tell them that. 

Yes, you need to tell them that. They can come to talk to me because I'm a doctor and everybody has to listen to me.

Do you hear that, Mom and Dad?

I'm sure you did a good job on them too. To our readers out there, thank you so much for being a part of the tremendous tribe. Thank you for paying the price of leadership. I know you guys are out there doing it. You're reading great books. Remember, as Charles said, you will be the same person five years from now that you are today, except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. 

You read us share some tremendous people, some tremendous resources, some tremendous books. Pick some up. If you like what you read, please hit the like or the subscribe button and share this with some of your friends out there who are leaders who would like a little boost of positivity and, information, and inspiration. Thanks so much for being a part of us, and have a tremendous rest of the day.

 Important Links

• Nabia Jenkins-Johnston

• Forgiveness is Tremendous

About Nabia Jenkins-JOHNSON

View fullsize

Nabia Jenkins-Johnston is the Head of Content and Brand Strategy leading Events at The Expert Series' ETP Forum hosted by ETF Global.

Her work guides innovation, creating opportunities for financial service professionals to connect and grow within the ETP ecosystem.

She is a storyteller, managing the delivery of concise, emotional, and thoughtful work, both strategically and creatively-bringing human stories to the stage in person, in print, and on screen.

Episode 191 - Denise Cassidy - Leaders On Leadership

Navigating the complexities of leadership has its own challenges and merits. That journey to finding balance in work and life has no one-size-fits-all answer. In this episode, Denise Cassidy, the Director of Strategic Development at DBJ Wealth Management, reveals her approach to finding balance and avoiding burnout. She also shares how she left her comfort zone to transition into a new leadership role and stresses the importance of setting boundaries and prioritizing self-care to avoid burnout. Through the conversation, you will also view delegation as empowerment and see the importance of setting and communicating hard limits. Denise is the torch that brightens the path toward leadership, empowering women in their leadership roles.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Denise Cassidy - Leaders On Leadership

Welcome to another episode, where we pull back the curtain on leadership and we talk with leaders of all ages and stages about what it takes to truly pay the price of leadership. I am very excited because my guest is Denise Cassidy. Denise, welcome.

Thank you so much, I'm happy to be here.

Thank you. Let me tell you a little bit about Denise. Denise Cassidy joined her current team in July of 2021 as the Director of Strategic Development. Prior to joining DBJ Wealth Management, she had spent 21 years as a sales executive for Verizon with vast experience in sales strategy, employee development, operational processes, and efficiencies. Denise helps oversee the sales, service, and operations of the firm while also helping with continued efforts to establish and build strong relationships with her clients and businesses. We going to learn a lot today from Denise. Thank you again, Denise, for agreeing to be a part of this podcast.

Thank you. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Denise and I met at the beginning of April and it's May now, the very end of May. Newfound sisters and friends here. Denise had signed up with the American College of Financial Services, their chartered leadership fellow designation. Many of you have heard me talking about that. I love being a part of that. Denise was in our most recent cohort. I always extend the offer. I just so enjoyed her in that scarce five weeks, getting to hear about her vast background and how she spent a lot of time in one industry and transitioned to another, just like a lot of our listeners are out there doing in that. Just like I've done. When she agreed to be on this podcast, I was absolutely thrilled.

Without further ado, we're going to go right into my father's, one of the most often downloaded and requested speeches that he gave called The Price of Leadership. It's very poignant, it's very pragmatic, and it's very real. He talks about if you're going to really, truly be a leader and not just call yourself a leader, here's the price you're going to have to pay. The first price he says, Denise, is loneliness. We've all heard that, it's lonely at the top. They always say when you're a manager, you can have friends, but then you get to be the boss and it's kind of different. What does loneliness mean to you, Denise, in your decades of experience? Maybe for our listeners out there who might be in a season of loneliness, what would you recommend to them?

Be Confident

I thought a lot about this when that question came over. I think loneliness, one thing I would say is that it's reoccurring. You'll go through it multiple times throughout your career. You'll go through it, whether it's loneliness because you're missing your family because you made decisions within your career that are taking you away, or it could be loneliness because you've decided that you were done in a segment. For me, I ran a lot of different sales organizations.

My primary one was the store channel. It was where I grew up, it was where I started, but then I knew I needed to make changes. I decided to jump into a different channel. That's very lonely because those that you built rapport with and you have trust with and knew that they would work extremely hard with you to achieve goals, you had to rebuild all of that. You were starting all over by yourself.

There are so many different stages that you go through in loneliness, but at the end of it, you take the lessons you've learned from each of the different components and what you learned that got you through the stage of loneliness before, and you bring that forth and it takes you through to the next one. Just know and be confident it's temporary. It is a temporary period of time that you will overcome, and you will move past.

There are so many different stages that you go through in loneliness, but at the end of it, you take the lessons you've learned from each of the components.

I love that you said that it's temporary, but also recurring because someone once told me every time you grow or change, something has to die. I think about what you were talking about when you left Verizon and moved over, it's almost like changing high schools. I want to leave my friends, but yet I'm going to find new friends. I have to make this transition. I love that you said it is recurring but it's also temporary, and if you got there once before, you’re going to get through it again. I love that. You've been in your current role how long now? About three years?

About three years.

You took all the things from before and kind of are building them on this?

I did, yeah. You have to really dig deep sometimes because you're stepping into their world, not your world anymore. I had to figure out how to blend my world with them and not vice versa. I think sometimes that's a trap. I sometimes think that people go in and, having 21 years of experience, could walk in and say, “I know everything, but I had to blend into their world in order to be successful.”

It's interesting you said that because a lot of times when leaders come in from the outside, I've done it many times, after a certain number of years, they're still like “They just don't like change” or whatever. And it's like, you say that, but did you realize you stepped into their world? I know you were brought in, but it is still their world, so you have to approach it differently, even if you are the smartest person at the table. That's very interesting because otherwise, you'll alienate them.

That loneliness is self-induced because you come in with that attitude. Excellent points, Denise. Thank you. The next point he talked about was weariness. You wear many hats: a new grandmother, children, business, all these other things that go into school to get your CLF designation. There's a lot on our plates, especially for women. How do you handle weariness and stay in your top form because so many people rely on you?

Self-Care

I'm still trying to figure that out. I think that that's the ideal. You have to know there are going to be times when you are okay to say, “I need a timeout.” We all get vacation days, and we all get personal days, but what we do with those days to self-heal, self-inspire, and self-motivate. Those days sometimes we don't take. We take the days off because we need to do something for somebody else.

We need to take care of a child. We need to take care, but I would recommend, and I have done this, that there are days I need for me. There are even nights that I need for me. At home, I'll tell my husband, “8:00 I'm going upstairs. I might not fall asleep, but I'm done for the evening and I'm going.” Because I need time to self-motivate, self-heal, and take care of some of that weariness that happens.

That's good. I'm sorry, I was even thinking of a summer vacation company. I'm leaving for Greece on Monday and I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to make it because I got so much to do to get ready for this time off supposedly for myself. I love that you're saying that just take the time for yourself. I'm sorry, Denise, go on.

No, that's perfect. Then as far as the business, sometimes weariness comes from how many things get taken on your plate. How do you handle all of it? I would say delegation is key. I've thought a lot about delegation. When you first start out in your career, you think they're just giving me this because they don't want to do it. They don't want to have to do it. They're giving it to me because they don't enjoy it or they want to sit with their feet up.

You get that perception of leaders at times, but when you truly engage with your leader and understand the reasons why delegation is important and what it's doing for the other person than what it's doing for you because a lot of times it's actually easier to just do it yourself. Could we agree? Then that becomes weariness because you're like, “I just have to get this done because I can do it better, faster, more efficiently.”

That's hindering you and that's hindering the people that work for you because you are not giving them the opportunity to excel in their roles, to become your next leader, to become the person that you entrust to handle what they're capable of. You have to get over yourself to think that you are the only one that can do it and be the best at it. It might not be exactly the way you would want to do it, but if it gets done and achieves the result, does it really matter? That helps with weariness.

Boy does it ever. That is such wise, and I love it. You're helping them to become the next leader because that's the whole thing. We're all moving on. I love it, Denise. The next thing you talked about was abandonment. Abandonment, fear of abandonment, abandoning an animal, abandoning a marriage, it kind of has that negative connotation. In the price of leadership, Charles puts a slightly different shift on it.

That we have to abandon what we like and want to think about and do in favor of what we ought and need to do. It's almost this pruning or hyper-focus on what we need to look at. How do you do that, Denise? How do you stay with all the people that obviously will come to you because you're very talented, you're very smart, you're very driven. How do you stay on point? You talked about it's okay to say no and to delegate, but what do you do to abandon the stuff that's not the truth?

Delegation

I'm just kind of going back to my Verizon days, actually. One of the toughest decisions, again, that store channel was so important to me. That's where I started. It's where I got my first leadership, my second leadership position. You feel this kind of sense of obligation and loyalty. For me, and for what I felt I could handle and help the business achieve, I knew I needed to abandon that organization to go to another organization, which was extremely scary because I was dipping my feet into an organization that was not full of women, that was not a believer that leadership equaled lateral moves.

They believe that you have to start at the bottom and grow up within your own organization. I had to fight all of that. I had to abandon my beliefs in the store channel and the beliefs that you have to follow a certain train and prove to them that I could laterally move, drive that organization, and help the overall success of not just that channel, but the region. I had to make that jump. For the team that I left behind, you don't really leave them. If you're a true leader, I left them with, I'm there.

Finding Balance: You should follow a certain train and prove to them that you can move laterally.

It's a phone call. You've always called me before, you can call me again. I also understood and identified those that also needed a jump. Once I got my feet planted, once I built my brand, and once I created that, I reached back and pulled some of them into the new organization because that's what was best for them. I knew me doing that was bigger than me. You fight that and you choose that abandonment because it's going to help more than just yourself.

I love that you don't ever leave them. It doesn't matter if you go across the planet or jump industries like we did, we're still there. Especially now, I love connecting with people I worked with 40 years ago. It's we're still here. You still impacted me, you're still impacting me now. Absolutely beautiful. Denise, I just think back to the classes we had together, you have such a beautiful understanding of the fluid, intergenerational, collective nature of leadership.

It's not just about us, we have to look, but then we always have to be looking for everybody else and bringing them along the way. Some people like you will have this intrinsic personal agency where you get it and you can, but then there'll be other people that need somebody like you to tap them on the shoulder and say, “Come on, you can do this too.” Just beautiful.

This is the funny part, it's not all without selfishness, because we all have that little bit in us. I don't want to do this forever. Who's going to do it when I'm not here? I don't want it to collapse. I want to leave a legacy. The only way you do that is you invest in other people. There's a piece of it that is self-motivating because I don't want to do this forever.

There are some leaders who are like, “If I step away, the place is going to fall apart.” I'm like, you should not say that. That is incredibly self-serving, and it's a testimony to the fact that you're an anti-leader, you know what I'm saying? I'm in a legacy business, yet Charles is gone, but he had left enough already established that we just somebody passed me the baton, and there was a whole lot of stuff going on besides that, but we kept moving forward. That's really when you abandon your sense of self and understand that it's more than you. We’ve talked about that in our class, there has to be a future to leadership.

Not just right now with me and my retirement, my 401k, but what's going to go on with the entity after I'm gone because sooner or later, we're all going to be gone. I love that abandonment. The last thing he talked about was vision. We heard the verse in Proverbs, where there is no vision to people perish, and also, one of the things we talked about in the CLF was the importance of values and vision. Denise, you're obviously good at this and you move towards where you want to go in the future. What's next? Or what would you recommend for people that maybe don’t think that they're that strong on the vision aspect?

Don’t Be Afraid Of Change

For me, it was creating a whole new vision. You talked a little bit about when I walked away. I want to just kind of start there for a moment because I lost a vision. I planned on being there for a very long time. I planned on retiring from there, but things happened. Decisions in our personal lives took over, what I wanted more, and where that balance came from. Then I went for about a year, almost two years, of not having a vision and not having a purpose, which I thought because I left my purpose. I had my whole life wrapped around this one entity of it.

When you asked me, “Denise, tell me about yourself.” The first thing I said was, “I'm a director for Verizon Wireless.” No, I'm not. I'm a mom. I'm a wife. I'm a community involved and volunteer. All of those things. I was so much more, but it took me a little time. I'll say, I enjoyed some of it. It was summer. I was laying in my pool enjoying like, “I think I could do this.” About six months into it, I was going, “I cannot do this. We have more to give.” I knew my vision again was wrapped back around leadership. Leadership was where I wanted to stay and help.

Again, not leadership for the reasons you were talking, some people want to be a leader because of money. Some people want to be a leader because of power. I truly, my soul, my being is about helping other people achieve their visions and goals. How do I bring out the best in them? That's where I knew I had an opportunity to find that. I happened to meet my current employer through conversations and he talked about the vision and what he wanted to develop and I was like, “I know I can help. I know I can do this.”

We just kind of carried on conversations for a while, and it's okay to re-identify your vision. It is truly okay. I think sometimes when you give up on one or you abandon one, you have a hard time. My vision didn't change, the place changed. It takes time to realize that. What I would say to people is don't be afraid of the change of a place. It doesn't mean you have to change who you are and what your vision and aspirations are.

Don't be afraid of the change of a place. It doesn't mean you have to change your vision and aspirations and who you are.

Before we started recording, Denise shared with me about her son being in the Navy. I can remember a lot of people, and I was asking, “Is he going to stay in for 20 years?” I remember when I stepped out of uniform, and I know that a lot of my colleagues when they were tired and put the uniform on for the last time, some of them really struggled. I know I did but then I was off to something else so quickly. I filled that but it is really interesting.

Even back on running this business, there are times when something didn't work out and I couldn't do anymore and I'm like, “I killed the business. I killed it I guess.” It's like I love it when you said that re-identify. No, I didn't kill it. The values are unkillable. They're internal. They've been along since the beginning of time and will be long after I'm gone but it is a different place. When I finally embraced that, I stopped looking at, I'm making a good or right or wrong decision. Like you said, a passion to just lead and serve others wherever that place is.

What a profound way to look at vision. I know that's going to touch a lot of people because a lot of us are in seasons of transition or maybe we're empty nesters. Now we think, “What is my point now?” Well, you still have that. You didn't all of a sudden not become a parent anymore. You have to re-identify yourself. Maybe you're more now of a consultant of your adult children versus a coach or a cop. I just love that you said that. That's really profound.

Isn't that great that you get to change that with your children? You just spent so many years, but now you're their confidant. You're the person that they want to share versus forcing them to share. We used to force them to give me your grades.

Let me see your phone.

Let me see your phone. Now it's like, why?

Why are the cops outside?

Now I get, look at this, what do you think of this? How would you say this? I'm like, I love this transition.

Still, it's different. Like we said, you're abandoning one thing, but it's that loneliness that they're not in the house anymore, but they're in your world in a different place and still in your hearts. That was the re-identifying. You're going to become something else. I've worn a lot of different hats. All hats are wonderful. People are like, “Would you miss this? I do, but I love this new hat.

Once you get into that fluidity, you become really kind of more free to serve wherever. Remember, it's not about where I want to lead and serve. In my belief, it's wherever God wants to put me. That's the highest honor or wherever people need you the most, it may not be where you thought about going. Many times it's not, but when you become more big-picture about it, I think that's when you can embrace those changes.

I would say go through the motions. Let the feelings happen. Let it occur. You'll go through many different stages of that abandonment or loss of your identity. That time between Verizon and coming to DBJ, I had the opportunity to spend numerous amount of time with my parents, which I didn't because I traveled a lot. I was in a hotel four nights a week. I mean, my life was away, wasn't here. We ended up losing my mom in October of 2021. That summer before, I could not ever get it back but it was what needed to happen.

Finding Balance: Go through the motions, right? Let the feelings happen.

I believe that God put this situation in front of me at that time because I needed to be with my parents. That vision again was, I want to help, I want to support, I want to guide. I was able to do that for my parents. I was able to be at the doctor's appointments when my mom was diagnosed with cancer. It was very quick, but it was for a reason. I believe that that was part of the vision and part of my time, that's the place that I needed to lead.

For our listeners out there, I know probably quite a few of you are in a place right now or perhaps a door closed that you wanted to get open, but please just know and have faith, there's something else more urgent that's going to require. Just like you said, you had no idea, but all those months prior, and Denise, what a gift to be there in the end. As I was for both my parents. I miss them more than anything, but I was blessed enough to be there for the last few months with both of them. Not many people get that.

No, they don't.

Denise, listen, we talk loneliness, we talk weariness, abandonment, and vision. Is there anything else that you would like to share with our tremendous tribe about leadership?

Finding Balance

I think the only other thing that gets presented to me throughout my whole career was how do you balance? How do you find a balance between your personal and professional life? I've always been the believer that that is a very personal decision. When I say that, what fits for one does not fit for anybody else. As leaders, I think it is very important for us to remember that because I've been to so many conferences where they're like, “It's great.

I have a successful family at home and a supportive spouse and I have a nanny and I have,” but we're talking to individuals that are in the audience that may not have that or do not have the funds or the resources to do that because they're not in the same position. I would encourage everyone to take a deep dive and think about how you would respond to that type of question and to understand that I would support you, but it's a personal choice for you. I would also explain that you have to figure out what your hard limits are. What are you willing to do and what are you not willing to do?

When you write your hard limits, you communicate those hard limits. Every time I was up for a promotion or every time I was looking at a new position, I shared those hard limits with my leadership to make sure they were okay. Will this fit or won't this fit? If it does not fit, then this isn't the right time for me to move because I'm not sacrificing these hard limits. Some of those, for example, would be, I would miss a baseball game, but I would not miss the sectional game. I would miss my son's swim meet, but I would not meet when he was competing in the States. You just have to understand what those look like and be supportive of your team to help them set those hard limits.

In 2024, it seems like we're getting way better at that, but we have to know it. First of all, say it, own it. Again, if you don't want to give stuff up for that, I'm not judging. You have to own it, but you have to articulate it. We talked about that in the class. You have to tell your boss, these are my hard stops. They cannot read your mind, but you have to know, I love the hard limits, it's very good. You know what? They want to see you happy too.

They understand that you're not just an entity showing up, that you're a body, mind, heart, and soul, and that's what leadership is all about. It depends, you said that. That was the thing about leadership. How do you lead people? Well, it depends. Depends on the follower. It depends on the context. It depends on the situation. I think that's great that there is no hard how to achieve balance. I mean, if there was a real answer to that, everybody would be in balance.

I'll be doing it. I say that sometimes when somebody figures out, can you let me know too? That would be great.

People say, “How did you get successful?” I go, “When I do, I would be the first to write it down. I'll let you know.” Denise, listen, what is the best way that people can get in touch with you?

I'm on my email. I can give you my email address, which would be great. Also, I'm on social media platforms. My email would be DCassidy75@gmail.com. I'm always looking for connections. I'm on LinkedIn also, you can find me. That would be a great way to communicate and connect. I love talking to others. My hope is to reach out. I would love to have conversations. I love to have conversations about women's leadership and women moving up in organizations and striving for that.

I have a lot of background in that area also. I believe we learn from each other. I'm not in the conversation to teach everything but also gain knowledge. The more I can connect with great people in our country, which there are. There are so many amazing people and amazing leaders out there. It will help me better myself also.

I love it. That's why you were the first one to reach out to me and connect on LinkedIn. I loved it. For listeners out there, if you're jogging or whatever, don't worry. You don't have to find sticks to write this down or whatever. We'll go ahead and put this in the show notes and we'll take care of it. All right, Denise. Again, I cannot thank you. It's been so wonderful to connect again. We're connected on LinkedIn. You guys connect with us. Just thank you again for sharing your thoughts with us. I know our listeners will truly be not only inspired but also informed.

Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Nice to see you again.

Likewise, and to our tremendous tribe out there, never forget, that you're going to be the same person five years from now that you are today, except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. Make sure they're both tremendous. If you like our show, please hit the subscribe button and share the conversation that Denise had with me today so you can bless others in their journey on the price of leadership. We'd love the honor of a five-star review and we're so thankful to have you a part of this and you keep on paying the price of leadership. Have a tremendous rest of the day. Bye-bye.

Important Links

• Denise Cassidy - LinkedIn

• DCassidy75@gmail.com

About Denise Cassidy

Denise joined the team in July 2021 as the Director of Strategic Development. Prior to joining DBJ Wealth Management, she spent 21 years as a Sales Executive for Verizon, with vast experience in Sales Strategy, Employee Development, Operational Processes, and Efficiency. Denise helps oversee the firm's sales, service, and operations while also helping with continued efforts to establish and build strong relationships with our clients and businesses.

Episode 190 - Franklin Beach - Leaders On Leadership

Despite facing challenges and questioning his path, Franklin Beach, a pillar of his community and a man of unwavering faith, shares his journey towards joy and living a purposeful life. Through his experiences, Franklin emphasizes the importance of faith in navigating life's difficulties and the power of forgiveness in letting go of burdens. He highlights that overcoming challenges can be a source of valuable lessons and growth. Inspired by his dedication to his church, an international children's charity, and his long-standing service as a local alderman, Franklin underscores the profound fulfillment found in serving others. Whether you're facing challenges or simply seeking a deeper meaning in life, Franklin's message offers a beacon of hope. He reminds us that with faith as our guide and a commitment to helping others, we can all discover the path toward joy and live a truly purposeful life.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Franklin Beach - Leaders On Leadership

Welcome to the show where we pull back the curtain on leadership and talk with leaders of all ages and stages about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. I am tremendously excited to introduce you to my guest, Mr. Franklin Beach.

---

Franklin, welcome.

Thank you so much. It’s good to be here with you and your guests.

Thank you. Let me tell you a little bit about Franklin. He was adopted at less than a year old. Franklin Beach was raised in a Christian home attending a Salvation Army Church where he is still active. Franklin has been a lifelong businessman owning an accounting firm and is involved in other community and international endeavors. Frank is an elected alderman in the city of Rockford, Illinois for 44 years, devoted to servant leadership. He and his wife, Sonja, have been married 64 years and have 2 married daughters, 2 granddaughters, and 1 great-grandson. Franklin, thank you again. I’m so excited to have the honor of meeting you.

Where did you learn all of that stuff?

Tremendous words get out about tremendous people. Speaking of which, Franklin and I have only recently been connected. We were connected to the Lord many years ago. Do you want to tell the folks about your connection with my father and how we found each other?

It’s unbelievable that we are talking to one another. I keep asking myself, “Dear Lord Jesus, why would it be that You’d allow this connection to happen this time in our lives?” The truth of the matter is I saw you on Facebook. It was an email of some kind. I called you on the phone to get the connection. I was like, “Is this truly Charlie Jones’ daughter?” It’s true that I did that.

It was many years ago that I met your father in Rockford. He came through for some seminars. I was a young man at that time, but we had a liking for each other. We spent a lot of time in person on the phone to talk about each other. The thing that really drew me in was that one day, your father called me on the phone and said, “God told me that you’re in the process of selling your business.” I said, “How in the world would he know that?” because I never talked to anybody about it. I hadn’t talked to my wife about it. It was in my thoughts that this was something that I needed to do.

I stood there in my kitchen startled to say, “What do you mean God told you to call me?” He said, “That’s what I did. Are you in the process?” That was the direct question he asked me. I said, “I am.” He said, “That’s good. Meet me up in Minneapolis. I want you to come up. I want to talk to you about some books.” I said, “I don’t want to talk to you about books. I’m not a reader.” He said, “You will be when I’m done with you.” I can still hear that.

He said, “I’m telling you one thing right now. You get this straight in your head. Promise me one thing.” I was like, “What’s that?” He said, “I’m only going to ask you to read fifteen minutes a day. Please understand.” He made a big deal out of that. He said, “Don’t read on the weekends. Please promise me no Saturday or Sunday, but read fifteen minutes a day.” He knew what was going to happen. You can’t eat 1 potato chip and not eat 3, 4, or 10.

There is a famous line about how five years do not make you different as for what you are today except for the people you meet and the books you read. I’m different from meeting you. How true that is. My life is being enriched at this moment. I heard a man tell me, “I’d rather be an inch from hell going away from it than 1,000 miles from it going towards it.” If you take that principle and extract that into other areas of your life, who it is, it doesn’t matter how deep or down you are. If you’re headed in the right direction, it’ll all be fine.

That’s how this thing all started. I went up to Minneapolis and met him. I wish I could remember that couple up there. They were a nice couple. I forgot. Maybe some other day. We talked about books, and your dad was there, “Tremendous” Charlie. How I loved that man. When I traveled around the country, I always took the time to call him. I knew your brother, Jerry. I met him. We went to Minneapolis. I have all kinds of stories about him. That’s for another day.

I remember that I once started a book business called Harvest Time Books. I thought, “This is great. Since God was in it and Charlie was in it, things are going to work out wonderfully.” I’ll tell you the truth. It didn’t work out wonderfully. That’s where my story begins. That’s where loneliness begins. That’s where the abandonment begins.

All of those things that say, “Are you going to go for it or not?” Leadership, as his book outlines, has nothing to do with personality, title, or other things that people think you have to have as a leader. Your dad said in the first seminar I ever attended with him, which he made a big deal and you know that, The Seven Laws of Leadership. He said, “You get your pencil. You’re going to write this down.” I can still hear his voice saying, “The first law of leadership is work.” You’ve heard that before, right?

Yeah. Nothing works unless you work it. He was like, “Get to work. What are you doing here?”

Exactly. You don’t have to put your sign up that says you’re the president, this, or that. Get your butt to work.

I love when you said, “Are you going to go forward?” There are readers out there who are like, “You’re speaking to me right now.” How do you deal with that when you’re in something? You feel called to it. You feel the Lord has given you confirmation. You said something didn’t work out. We’ve all been there. The question is, are you going to go forward? You do get that loneliness. Can you unpack that for us?

Loneliness And Finding Peace

The loneliness comes in all the relationships you’ve made in the community, your church, or whatever. You start going inward by thinking, “What are they going to think about me? They think I’m going to be a failure.” Everything starts going about me rather than getting on with it. I had to reach that point. Let me say this to you. I remember that one evening, I came back to my office because my inventory was in the basement of this building, about 4,000 square feet. I saw all my inventory, the last hope of trying to recover funds floating in the water. There must have been at least half a foot or more of water.

What had happened was that during the snowfall, the exhaust system in the building that we were at was drawing the snow in the building and melting it. I was so angry. I was angry at the Lord. I was angry at everything. I was like, “This isn’t working. What am I going to do, Lord?” I walked up into my office and left the darn book floating in the water. You know Jesus lives in my heart. I’ve been growing gracefully with Him through the years. I said, “Dear Lord Jesus, with friends like you, who needs enemies?” That’s exactly what I said. The Lord said, “Do you have anything else you want to tell me?”

We’ve all been there.

I let go of a whole bunch of things. He said, “Now we know who you are.” I said, “Who am I?” He said, “You’re a traitor.” I said, “What?” He said, “The first time you run into a concrete wall, I’m the first one you want to throw out.” I went and got on my knees, laid down on that floor, and said, “God, now I understand there is no set of circumstances that we can carve out that’ll produce a lasting joy and a lasting peace other than a right relationship with you.”

I asked Him to forgive me for those words. I didn’t want to say them, but they came out of my mouth. I told my friends. They said, “How can you be so happy losing all this money?” I said, “That’s a cheap lesson.” It’s a tremendous lesson to learn that there are no circumstances that bring peace and joy other than a right relationship with God. That’s been helpful to me all through my life. Time doesn’t permit us to go through other stories, and I’m sure your readers don’t want to read all of those kinds of things.

You may have known this about Charles. In ‘72, in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, we had Agnes, the flood of a lifetime. Charles had the bookstore at 10 North 2nd Street in Downtown Harrisburg. He couldn’t even get across because of the floods. When he finally got there, he looked in the basement and the inventory, his plaques, and all his board recognition from when he was with Mutual of New York were gone.

He had that same thing where he looked at the Lord and was like, “It’s yours to give. It’s yours to take.” I’ll never forget him coming home and crying. I was only nine at the time. I’ll never forget that. That was such a lesson for him. He was like, “God, You can take it at any point,” but when your life comes up like that.

I didn’t know that about your dad. Maybe this is going the wrong way, but I can also remember the tender heart of your father. I remember sitting with him at the airport. He said he was going home to sell his boat. I said, “Why in the world would you go sell your boat?” Your father started crying right there. We were sitting on suitcases in the airport. He said, “There are many people that need help. I can always buy another boat, but right now, they need money. I’m going to go sell it and give it to them.” Lessons to learn from a young man.

He was very convicted about that. That was like, “You got to do this.” I have nothing against people who want to spend their wealth doing fun stuff. He was terribly convicted about that. The other thing he said was, “While I’m out in my boat having fun, other people are on dry land recruiting my clients.” That was the other thing. People used to laugh too. He was like, "Leisure is great, but you have to be careful because you’re trading your time off with somebody else.”

Thank you for sharing that. The Lord really softened his heart. I want to get to abandonment after that because you talked about that. How do you deal with weariness? we got to run and not be weary. It is exhausting. You get beaten when you look at your last hope of recouping revenue. Pretty much, 99% of our audience have felt that, especially as entrepreneurs. They are like, “Lord, this is it. I’m so tired I can’t even see a weight out of this. How do You stay strong? “

It’s interesting. I told my kids not long ago, “I remember an illustration that we’ve all had. You’ve gone to a restaurant, and it’s got really dark lights that you could hardly see. After you sit down and they serve you the water, pretty soon, your eyes adjust to it. You can see in that dark room real clearly. It is wariness in business. Nobody wants to go in that ditch. No one wants to go in that pit. No one, including Joseph, who was sold into slavery out of a pit. Once you get down in the pit and your eyes get adjusted, it’s easy to say, “I like it down here. I have no responsibilities. I don’t have to do anything. Put my thumb in my mouth and have a pity party.”

Even when friends came, they tried to pull you out of that pit. You fought to go into it, and then you’re fighting to get out of it. I had a friend who came by and helped pull me up out of that pit and put me on the ground. That’s when I reconnected back with your dad and all of that kind of thing. That’s true. Are you in the pit? Do you want to stay down there? Do you want to keep sucking your thumb? Do you want to let life pass by? Are you going to take the God-given gift you’ve gotten? Get up and move on. That’s my story as far as that motivation. I’ve been in those pits. The good thing is when you go to a pit, you’re only there for a few minutes because you know what the past was. You get yourself up and go. I don’t know if that answers your question.

That’s beautiful. When you’re down there, you think about how long you used to stay in it when you were either spiritually immature or too prideful to ask for help or give yourself grace. The older you get, you’re more seasoned as a leader like most of our audience where you realize, “We’re still going to get in the pits and the ditches.” We don't have to stay in them for any length of thought.

Learning Opportunities

That’s right. That’s the exciting part about it. At this point, it’s not that you’ve arrived or I’ve arrived. We won’t arrive until we’re there in glory. The point of it is the experience comes by saying you can either stay there or get out. How long do you want to be there? How long do you want to be miserable?

You said the word miserable. Charles would say that you can be happy miserable or miserable-miserable. Somebody said to me, “Pain is a fact of life. Misery is optional.” I thought, “Isn’t that true?”

Pain is a fact of life. Misery is optional.

That’s exactly right.

If you are all the negative emotions, the guilt, the shame, and the misery, that’s all self-imposed. It’s going to be a pain. People say, “You’re going to act like everything in life is going to go right.” You are never going to hear me say that. Who wants to tune in to a show where everybody’s life is perfect? I wouldn’t find anybody to interview.

I’m a little suspicious of, “My life is perfect.”

That’s a good point.

We can enjoy our life on the journey. There were times when they were having a good time, and there were other times when they were in the pit. Jesus told me, “Get out and move on.” Those are choices that we make. I have to tell you this. I could still remember this one man. He was the vice president of a large aerospace company from our church. I said it before, but he said, “How can you be so happy losing money?” I said to him, “God was gracious enough to only let me lose this amount.”

There was a lesson that we all have to learn. I might as well learn it there than go someplace else and really have to learn at a much more difficult level. I do believe in my heart there are lessons that we all have to learn. We are either going to learn them from our parents as we grow up, the ones that love us the most and that give us the most slack, if you will, or if we don’t and the guy says, “I don’t like discipline,” I’m sure he’s going to love it and pamper it. I believe in my heart that we all have basic lessons we have to learn and we might as well get on with it. That’s what I learned from your dad. He was the same way.

Purposeful Life: God is gracious enough to bring us lessons to learn.

He knew about pits. He is going to pump you up. He is going to smack you, pull your thumb out of your mouth, and then give you a big hug. That was it. There was no going back. Otherwise, you were going to have to deal with him. You did not want to go back to him thumb-sucking a second time.

One of the gifts God gave your dad was to shake people up a bit off of the normal things you get or hear in leadership seminars. It’s not that they’re wrong, but they’re not in the right direction. That’s what was good about it. He gave a new perspective on what was really real. The truth of it is with any embarrassment, Jesus Christ was a part and parcel of every one of those decisions.

Have it in your heart, first of all, who you’re going to serve, and then move on with it. Everything we do is an act of worship. I don’t care what it is. This interview is an act of worship. Selling books is an act of worship. Digging a ditch is an act of worship. No matter what we’re doing, this short time on Earth is an act of worship. That’s my view of it.

People might feel like, “I got to worship and go to church, sit in the field, fold my hands, say two prayers, and memorize a verse.” Those are all good things, but there’s more than that. The salvation we get through Jesus Christ is his gift to us. What we do with that is our gift back to him, no matter what it is. There’s nothing more than loving our kids.

Purposeful Life: The salvation we get through Jesus Christ is a gift, and we should give back to him.

Loving our Heavenly Father.

That’s what He did. He loved them.

You alluded to or hit on in the beginning the word abandonment. Charles’ term of abandonment was not walking away from something. I’m like, “How’d you get so successful?” He’s like, “I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success. It’s only by the grace of God I’ve had any success.” His point was that most of the time, we are busy with what we like and want to think about and not what we ought and need to think about. It was this real pruning, capturing every thought, every word, and every moment, and being very intentional about the highest use of our time for the service of God. How do you stay abandoned to your truest and highest calling?

Letting Go Of The Past

I’ll try to answer that for you here. It’s very easy to look backward and say, “If I would’ve only done this, that would have solved blah.” If you get that thing going in your mind, it can destroy any forward movement. I had to come to the place in my life where I say, “Lord, thank You for my past, thank You for the future, and thank You for today. God, what is it that You want me to do today to get to tomorrow?”

I told someone this not long ago. They asked, “How is it that you and your wife can be married 64 years?” I said, “First of all, understand one thing. I couldn’t be married yesterday. That’s over with. I can’t be married tomorrow. That hasn’t happened yet. I’m married today. I take care of it today.” That’s the same way in my walk with Jesus. I can’t be in love with Jesus yesterday. That’s gone. I can’t be in love with him tomorrow. It hasn’t got here. Take care of your relationship with him today, whatever that is.

The point of it is if there’s a problem between you and someone else, get forgiveness. Don’t sit there and hold it. It’ll destroy you. Jesus said over and over, “Forgive.” He even said, “When you go to the altar and there, you realize you are all against your brother or your brother is all against you, get off of that altar. Go make it right.” I can tell you stories about that in my life. That’s how I move forward. It’s not that I’m perfect, but that’s in my mind. Do you have to plan? Yes. You plan for you. God says, “Plan the state of your businesses,” but I can’t live it until it happens. I don’t know if that answers your question, but That’s where I’m at.

It did. Charles wrote a book called Forgiveness is Tremendous with Dan Ledwith. For our audience out there, it is one of the most profound books. It talks about what forgiveness is and what forgiveness isn’t. We’ll get you a copy of that. I narrated it too. It’s so powerful. That’s one of the things if you do nothing else, is abandon that sense of animosity, enmity, and anger even towards yourself. You’ve got to forgive yourself, and you have to forgive others.

Charles in the book and Dan really unpack what it is. They’re like, “If Christ remembers our sins no more, what are you doing? Why do you keep dragging this up? Is there something Jesus left? He died for every sin that ever was, will be, and ever committed. End it. You don’t need to spend your time on that.” I’m so glad you brought up forgiveness because that is one of the things that a lot of people cannot move forward from. Blessed are the peacemakers. They’re still stuck in that past and that anger. That’s a devil. The devil may not be able to get our souls, he loves to keep us in that sense of anger and hostility.

One of the things that God has helped me understand through the years is understanding that grace has settled it as far as us and Him. He doesn’t remember anything any farther than the East from the West. I thought that was interesting. There’s no ending to the East or West. There’s an ending to the North and South, but not the East and West. There’s still a memory there that helps you remember what He saved you from, but we’re not supposed to live in that. We’re not supposed to let that be the thing that defines who we are. That’s what happens so often. If Satan gets a hold of our minds and keeps whipping over, tell him, “Take a hike.”

It’s done. It’s already been covered. Christ being omnipotent and omniscient has already seen the end. He has already seen the end of the story. We already know from Revelation what the end of the story is going to be, but get out of it. I keep going on about this because even up until about a few years ago, I really did not understand the concept of forgiveness and what it is. It’s not that you erase it out of your mind, but you don’t live in it. It makes you more empathetic. You talked about Charles’ tender heart. It’s because he knows what a scoundrel he was. He knows what scoundrels were in his life. When he found Christ, nobody was more thankful for, “You’d love somebody like me than Him.” He realized how rotten he could be and how much forgiveness he needed.

It certainly is not a passing passage in scripture. I have to bring up to my own family from time to time when things go sour with other relationships not just in the family but with other people, “You have to let go of that. Give it to God.” If it’s true that if thy enemy is hungry, feed him. Give them something to drink. God said, “I will repay.” If that’s true, if the Creator of the world says, “I will repay,” it is going to be better than anything I can think of. He’s like, “Take care of yourself, Frank Beach.” It’s like the old adage. If you’re only 1% wrong and the other person is 99%, take care of your 1% and leave the 99% to God. I think that’s true. What do you think about that?

If you're only 1% wrong while the other person is 99%, take care of your 1% and leave the 99% to God.

I love it. I’m writing that down because that is so good. We’re worried about being right. It’s like Christ, “We don’t know the other person’s motives. We can’t even mend out justice.”

That’s right.

It’s more important to be relational than right and to focus on yourself. When we do that, everything takes care of itself. Charles would say that. Nobody wants to be told, “You brought it on yourself.” People will call me, even salespeople, and tell me how I messed up and how wrong my website is. I’m like, “If you were within arms reach, I would slap you. If you show me what’s wrong, I’d understand.” That was his thing. He was like, “Focus on yourself and let God fix everything else.”

What is this song we sing in church? Trust and obey for there’s no other way. Those are simple words to be happy in Jesus.

That’s how we lead and grow teams. The disciples were loyal to Him because they trusted who He said He was and then they obeyed. That’s it, these two things. Whatever you’re committing to. That’s what Charles would do too. He’d be like, “I’m not going to tell you what to believe or where to go to church,” and he would challenge you, “but you better know where you’re planting your flag and be able to defend it because otherwise, you’re living an inauthentic life.”

You better know where you’re planting your flag and defend it. Otherwise, you're living an inauthentic life.

That’s exactly right.

It was a very good challenge.

That’s a brief story.

I love it.

I get to meet Charlie’s daughter after all of these years. What a treat that is for me.

This is crazy.

I hope that we can continue to communicate with each other.

We will. That brings me to the last point, vision. What is the future for Franklin Beach? We’re getting started.

I don’t see anywhere in the scripture that gives me permission to retire. It tells me to occupy until He comes. As long as it gives me strength, I'll keep moving on. I may sleep a little later, maybe an hour, or I may do my scheduling a little differently, but I’m far from being done. The vision for me is that most of my activity is centered on my work with the Salvation Army. I’m on the board of directors and an active charter member for Kids Around the World. They’re an international organization that builds playgrounds, does feeding projects, and leads kids to Jesus Christ all over the world. It’s in about 137 countries. You might want to look it up on the website, Kids Around the World.

I will.

We got through our springboard meetings. It’s exciting to see what’s going on. We’ll probably do pretty close to ten million meals this 2024 with kids and see how they come to learn about Jesus. We’ve created a new way to tell stories for kids. I spend a lot of my time with that and then the city council. I’m still on the city council as an alderman in the city of Rockford. I said, “As long as the people want me there, that’s fine.” That’s a story in and of itself someday on how in the world I became an alderman. Someday, we’ll talk about that on the phone. That’s where I’m at. I’m excited about life. I love my kids. I love my wife. We do stuff together when we get a chance. That’s it. You can call me Frank too.

I will.

My adoptive mother changed my name from Frank to Franklin because my biological mother was like, “I’ll call him Frank.” She changed it to Franklin. When my mother was alive, I always had to sign Franklin to make her happy.

That’s beautiful. Have you ever met your biological mother?

I met my biological aunt. The long and short of it is I called my aunt on the phone and said, “I don’t expect you to talk to me, but please let me say one word. If my mother had been alive, I would want to thank her for not aborting me and giving me life.” She started crying. She said, “Come to me. We have been praying for you ever since. We didn’t even know our sister was pregnant.” I came to find out that my biological grandfather had been a Pentecostal minister for 37 years. To see how God had taken me from the womb of one woman and put me in the arms of another to where we’re talking to Charlie Jones’ daughter, are you kidding me? Am I excited or what?

It’s unbelievable.

If I could go near you, I’d take you in my arms and give you a big hug and kiss.

I will take a rain check on that. I used to live in St. Louis. We would’ve been a lot closer. I get out in the Midwest. We will connect and hug this side of Heaven. I promise you that.

I can’t wait. Thank you so much for taking time with me.

You’re welcome. I want to say to our audience, thank you so much. Frank, this has been such an incredible blessing. You spoke to my heart. I know you’re speaking to other people. I look forward to talking about many more books with you and many more tremendous connections. To our audience out there, if you like what you’ve read, please hit the like and the subscribe button.

We’d be honored if you would leave us a review and share this with other people who need to know about what it takes to pay the price of leadership and how life gets more tremendous. They need to meet Tremendous Frank because Frank is proof positive that you’ll be the same person five years from now that you are today except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. Thank you again.

Thank you for your time. Thank you to your audience as well.

Have a tremendous rest of the day. Bye.

Thank you. Same to you. Bye.

Important Links

• Franklin Beach

• Forgiveness is Tremendous

• Kids Around the World

About Franklin Beach

Adopted at less than a year old, Franklin Beach was raised in a Christian home, attending the Salvation Army Church, where he remains active today. Frank has been a lifelong businessman, owning an accounting firm and participating in other community and international endeavors. Frank has been an elected City of Rockford, Il Alderman for 44 years, devoted to servant leadership. He and his wife, Sonja, have been married for 64 years and have two married daughters, two granddaughters, and one great-grandson.

Episode 189 - Curt Vincent - Leaders on Leadership

Have you ever felt like your life wasn't going according to plan? Curt Vincent's story is one of unexpected turns, leadership lessons, and finding the path to purpose. After being drafted out of high school, his initial plans were derailed, but with the help of a strong leader, he discovered a talent for leadership and a love of learning. Life threw him curveballs, like being called back to the Army after 9/11 and later having to choose between a high-paying job and his startup dream; through these challenges, his faith and openness to new opportunities guided him. In his third career, Curt is on a quest to discover his true calling. He emphasizes the importance of self-confidence in leadership, balanced with keeping the ego in check. Tune in to this episode because Curt's story is an inspiration for anyone who has ever felt lost or unsure of their path.

---

watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Curt Vincent - Leaders on Leadership

It is time for our latest edition of the show, where we pull back the curtain on leadership and talk with leaders of all ages and stages about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. I am tremendously excited because we have a very special guest. His name is Colonel Curt, or to us, lay people, civilians, Curt Vincent. I want to tell people briefly about Curt's subject matter expertise.

Curt is a cyber security consultant. He's a strategist and also a speaker. He has been a cyber security maverick in both the Army, respect, and Wall Street. He is the Founder and leader of the 400-person Morgan Stanley cybersecurity program. He's been a leader since becoming a sergeant at the age of nineteen. Curt has been in the cybersecurity world. He loves to say that he demystifies cybersecurity for senior leaders, C staff, and boards. It's not just technology. It's people and culture.

I love this Curt, because everybody's aware of this from yelling across the room at somebody saying, “What's this email?” “Don't open that.” Curt says insurance claim data shows that as much as 80% of cyber breaches occur because your employees unwittingly invite criminals into your company or home. Curt, we want to talk about all things leadership but especially about this great thing that you do with cybersecurity. Welcome, Curt.

Thank you. It's good to be here.

Give the audience a brief context of where we connected. Our first correspondence was Curt had come in with an order through our website so automatically, I see how tremendous he is. I then see he comes through with another order. When you order from our website, you get a discount code for the next one so he came in and ordered something else.

I went in and being the nice person that I am, I refunded his shipping because it was going to the same place. I get this email from Curt saying, “What's going on? You refunded the shipping.” Fast forward several weeks and here we are. Curt, you've been in the tremendous sphere for quite some time but we have only just connected. Would you share about that?

I'm thrilled to share about it. I'm going to embarrass you in the process because you have no idea what I'm going to say. The first thing that I want your audience to know is I knew very little about Charlie "Tremendous" Jones. However, I learned the quote, “You will be the same person in five years, except for the people you meet and the books you read.” I love that quote. I use it in my public speaking because it's so profound.

One of the things I do is when I go all the time, I'm always exploring somebody or something extremely deep. I had decided at this point in my career that I was going to dig into who was Charlie "Tremendous" Jones. I started to watch as many YouTubes as I could find. I started buying old CDs off of eBay. I discovered your website. From there, it's a short circuit, more data and input. I started to order these things. I noticed you had some videos and MP3s.

I'm going to tell your audience, I prejudged you. I've seen this many times. People are riding on the coattails of their mom or dad and they're not able to stand up for themselves. However, you told me the story later that your dad threw you out of the house and said, “Go earn your stripes,” which made me respect you. I dug into your LinkedIn and I was like, “This is an amazing lady.” I prejudged her incorrectly. I had to buy one of your books and went through it as quickly as I could. If I make a mistake, I admit it. I sent Tracey an email saying, “I judged you incorrectly. I apologized.” From there, we started to have a dialogue and I would say we became friends if I can call you that.

Thank you for that. Charles did. He pretty much was like, “You got to go earn your stripes.” I remember watching successful people that I sat under their tutelage since I was little and no one said, “I inherited this. My last name is this. My daddy was a general.” It was all, “I made my own way.” I thought, “To be standing in front of people and help them find their way, you have to have made your own way.” He emphasized that but that was something as a child, I understood. I appreciate that, Curt. It means a lot. Let's get right into talking about paying the price of leadership.

Loneliness

Curt, one of my father's known speeches was called The Price of Leadership. It's in one of the little booklets that we have, the life-changing classics. In it, he says, “If you are going to truly be an authentic leader, there's a price you're going to have to pay.” It isn't a corner office, million-dollar salaries, or everybody loves you. There are four things he talks about. The first is loneliness. We've heard the statement, “It's lonely at the top or heavy as the head that wears the crown.” Can you share with us in your leadership journey maybe a time when you went through a season of loneliness and some words of exhortation for our audience?

Unfortunately, Tracey, everything with me is a long answer. Let me dig in. You'll appreciate this though. I have to go back to when I was in high school. I was back in an era where things were very different than now. My father felt, rightly or wrongly, that I was very rebellious so he forced me to quit high school and join the Army on my seventeenth birthday. What happened here is that I joined the Army as a seventeen-year-old man-boy. As I like to say, pimple-faced kids are showing up in the 101st Airborne.

The first sergeant who was the top enlisted person for the company took a look at my education and entire profile and said, “Vincent, it says here that you're a high school dropout. You're not going to the airfield,” and that was supposed to be a helicopter mechanic and a co-pilot.” He says,” You're going to the education center. You don't come back until you get a GED.”

I have to make a very long story short. This guy was about 5'5", a Puerto Rican gentleman named First Sergeant Ortiz but because of the amount of leadership and his time in the Army, I thought he was 9 foot tall. I did exactly what he said, fear and trembling. I went to the education center and did everything I was supposed to do. That was my job, to get the GED. I brought it back and laid it at his feet. I said, “Can I go to the airfield?” He said, “Yes. However, you have to go back to the education center and sign up for college credit. I want you to show up in my office weekly and tell me how you're doing.” It took two courses.

I started to do this. I was getting extremely good grades, A's and B's at that point. I wasn't getting that kind of positive feedback at home. I started to learn that at the very beginning, we'll get to the loneliness but the whole thing is this man went out of his way for me. To make another extremely long story short, he had me take college courses up until it was about four months from when I was supposed to graduate high school, co-wrote a letter with me that I sent to my high school with my GED and my college transcripts, asking them if I could graduate with my class and they allowed me. I'm in the yearbook as Unavailable For Photo.

The reason I'm mentioning this is this was the first influence I got in terms of what leadership is about. It's about making sure you're doing the right thing for the other person. There's no loneliness there. However, because of this individual, I strove to do the very best I could in this environment and made the rank of Sergeant at a very young age, nineteen years old. This is where the loneliness comes in.

Leadership Is Servitude

The very first thing that happened was I was a part of a group and then I was picked to lead that group. I had a very senior NCO come to me and say, “You need to disassociate with those people. They're no longer your friends. They work for you.” The one thing I love saying is he taught me that leadership is servitude. It's not about you. You're there to make them successful. I learned that at a very young age.

Leadership is servitude. It's not about you. You're there to make others successful.

The second thing he taught me is, “Phrase in public, rebuke in private.” Never call anybody out in front of anyone, pull them on the side, and be able to explain but phrase them to the high moon in the same way that First Sergeant Ortiz had with me. At the age of nineteen, I had to learn that leadership is servitude but I also had to learn how lonely it is as you're trying to stumble through figuring out what's the right thing to do and how you can be a good leader. It's very lonely.

It’s the idea of perseverating over particular problems and going and asking senior NCOs. This was long before I became an officer. Also, to be able to ask, “What would you do?” I didn't realize it at the time but that's what mentorship is about. You can cure a bit of loneliness by getting one or more mentors, which I still have, to be able to help you sort things out but not violate the relationship between what you have with you and the people who work for you.

I love that you talked about the two big factors as a young person where you're in a collective with camaraderie in high school. You got stripped away from that. When you go into the military, as I did, you're in a troop or a barracks together. If somebody has to fall out, get separated, or gets held behind due to whatever physical or you had to get your GED, that's lonely too, because you come in together as a cohort and the goal is to come out on the other side as a cohort. Rather than be so angry about the fact that you didn't get to do the traditional route, say with your peers, you said, “I'm all in.”

Like Joseph, you landed on your feet. Curt is also a dear brother in Christ and we're going to talk about this. I was reading Oswald Chambers and he talks about how burdens are a fact of life but we learn to carry them with God who was our companion. When you talked about that and a mentor, Lena Horne has one of my favorite quotes, “It's not the burden that breaks you down. It's the way you carry it.”

When you have other people there to help you, back when we grew up, it was more like, “You got to tough it out and figure it out.” Now, the more people you know to assist, the higher you are as a leader because you're asking other people to shoulder that burden with you. Mentors are the cure for loneliness. Curt, the next thing we talked about is weariness. I know you know 1 thing or 2 about weariness and Charles as a leader.

Weariness

You're going to be doing all kinds of things physically, mentally, and spiritually. Charles always told me, “Tracey, it's not for people who are weak, even physically, because a lot of times, you're going to be doing things that somebody else should be doing. If everybody did what they were supposed to be doing, then we could be a collective. We wouldn't have to have a leader and a follower. It's tiring.” Curt, how do you stay in top fighting form? You're dealing with a nasty and cowardly enemy that can sneak up and wreak terrible havoc and even lead your troops. How do you combat weariness?

The story I would tell you there is we have to fast forward a number of years to where I had gotten out of the Army, went to college, Electrical Engineering, Master's, went back in through ROTC, worked my way up through the ranks, and ended up into cybersecurity. A part of what I like to joke about was that I had planned to get into the recording business and had planned to use my engineering degree to be able to do recording and touring, which I did in college to put myself through.

It's not in the Bible but I love this adage. It's man's plans and God laughs. At the end of college, I ended up back in the Army and cyber, which I didn't expect. You used Joseph as an example. It's like being thrown in a cistern but ending up as number two in Egypt later on but you can't see it at the time. After my Army career, I ended up getting picked up on Wall Street as a technologist. Back in the '90s, Wall Street was trying to figure out the latest technology as best it could.

I did some consulting and got picked up by Morgan Stanley. The guy I had done work for, the top technologist for 6,000 people who were all technologists, says, “This internet thing is going to be big.” Nobody had a vision of where it was going to go but this guy did. He said, “I want you to build a group. Here are six people. Keep hiring until I tell you to stop.”

This is where the weariness comes in. If I was going to take six people who I had to first convert to my way of thinking, that's job number one. Number two, start hiring like crazy and be able to put in place my philosophies, which are not mine. They're from reading books like your dad, Earl Nightingale, and all these greats. Why try and reinvent the wheel?

The thing is that you've got to have a team that can help you grow a larger team and get what I would call something equivalent to a movement going as opposed to fighting. Where it became weary is telling people, “The one thing that I put into place is that as we hire, if you hire anybody that is not smarter than you, I will fire you.” The reason I said that was I have twenty years in the government and I've seen the DMV and the post office. Usually, you hire people that you can control and you're better than.

I didn't want to grow a large organization of people who were trying to maintain control. I taught the initial team and as we grew, we would have leadership sessions for the people who showed leadership potential and grew them internally. We would explain how leadership works. The one thing I said to folks is, “There are two ways to get promoted. One, you can either stand on people's heads and climb over the wall and you are successful or they can lift you and make you successful.”

That's the way we tried to grow up. You want to talk about weariness to be able to try and convert people to a different way of thinking, especially on aggressive and abrasive Wall Street to be able to get people to understand that this is going to be our culture. We are not going to be like everyone else on Wall Street. We're going to be different and we were but you want to talk about being weary and lonely at the same time. That's the one because you can find very few mentors when you're trying to do something different.

You can find very few mentors when trying to do something different.

There are two books I'm reading. One has been around. It's sold millions and millions of copies. The Master Plan of Evangelism. It's all about Jesus picking the twelve, and that was it. It’s how he got their buy-in and loyalty. It wasn't about him going and healing people, although he never shunned mass ministry but it was all about that core. Leadership is about getting that 6 because then that 6 gets their 6 and that 6 gets their 6. That's how you grow a movement.

The other book is by Steven Sample. He was the tenth President of USC, The Contrarian's Guide to Leadership. In it, he says, “The problem with organizations and leadership is A people hire A minus, A minus hire C, C hire D.” I'm sorry. That's the way it is. That's not being mean. Look at any organization. His thing was, “You have to be incredibly intentional about hiring. You can't even hire yourself. You have to hire above you.”

Men say, “I married up.” You got to hire up if you want this thing to do it. I love that you said that. You don't have enough energy. You have to focus on your core. That's one of the biggest leadership pitfalls where we fall. We have to be everything to everybody and be there for everybody. Not even Jesus was that. Pour into the people that get it so they can go be an extension of you.

Jesus went off with Peter, James, and John.

Abandonment

Even after his twelve, he had a further level of intimacy. The three-legged stool, I tell people, “You got to have your trinity.” You have other layers but otherwise, you'll burn out. You'll never make it. I love that, Curt. Loneliness, weariness. The next thing my father talked about was abandonment. In this, he said, “Abandonment is necessary.” What he meant was you have to stop thinking about what you want and think about in favor of what you ought and need to think about.

He would tell me, “Tracey, on any given day, I do more to contribute to my failure than my success.” I'm like, “What are you talking about?” He's like, “I waste time. I have conversations that have nothing to do. I don't capture my thoughts.” His thing was abandoning everything that isn't the highest and purest form of your calling. Can you share with us about how you help people do that?

I'll give you the story first. In this particular case, I had also gotten called back out of retirement to be able to serve again after 911. The reason I'm telling that story is I thought I was going back to the Middle East but they said, “No, not this time. You're going to Fort Huachuca, Arizona.” I went out there and ended up buying a house and starting a business of wireless internet for the desert because you can do that by having satellite dishes.

The whole point is after I came back to New York City and Morgan, 2008 hit and nobody got bonuses. My boss came to me and said, “You did a good job this year. I want to do something for you. I can't give you any money but if you want, you can work from Arizona. You could go to your place in Arizona as opposed to the four-hour round trip commutes into New York.” I said, “That's worth more than money.” I went out there in 2008. I was able to work for a couple of years. The decision was made that all senior leaders had to come back to one of the four hubs, which was New York, London, Japan, and Hong Kong.

I was told, “You have to come back or we got to let you go. There are no exceptions here.” I had taken and put a lot of money into this business in a year and a half prior. I couldn't leave my business partner so I made the decision to take early retirement from Morgan and stay in Arizona. The feeling of abandonment was going from a Wall Street salary to a minimum wage job at a college. I was doing a startup. I felt abandoned. I'd lost complete hope like, “I'm doing the wrong things. I'm not doing what you want, God.”

You brought up Joseph. My wife and I are studying Daniel. It's the same thing. You don't know what God's plans are. Therefore, I didn't understand what God's plans were and here I am, as I'm trying to get this business off the ground, which is doing quite well but this is many years later. I couldn't see it at the time with that feeling of abandonment. Losing everything I've gained and it's all going to slip away was an awful feeling. I didn't dig myself out. I was led to being dug out.

Different opportunities present themselves. I was brought to the world's largest hedge fund in Connecticut. I was brought for six months. This was when I met Maria, my wife. I ended up staying in Connecticut. Life started to change. I ended back up on Wall Street again with different organizations like Bank of America and such. Life started to take on a different feel from what it had been.

The abandonment is the equivalent of Joseph being thrown in the cistern going, “All I got to do is wait for it to rain.” You're waiting for the other shoe to drop but there's a lack of faith, is my point. I'm confessing that I didn't do a good job of saying, “Lord, I don't know what you're doing but I'm in no matter what happens.” I'm working on my third career at this point.

I love that you said a different feel. For anybody out there, change is difficult, even though we have our faith and we know that God has already worked it out. He doesn't write checks and intends to cash in on and call you places. I love such a word of encouragement. We've had so many of our guests and you echoed the same thing. It is scary. We feel like you poured so much into it but remember, it is all God's. He's already seen this to the end. You're His child.

I love that you said it's a different feel. I feel the same way too. I'm not a big feelings person but I look at life now, even from what it was years ago. I'm like, “This is a good season.” Coming through all that, it's radically different than what I thought it was going to look like. It's different but it's good. There's a richness about it that you can reflect and go, “I see why I was dumped in the pit to become number two and everything in between.”

Daniel is being thrown in the lion's den. It's a different feeling from leading all of Babylon.

I'm going to see Daniel at Sight and Sound. You're outside of Philly, correct?

Yes, I am. My wife and I have tickets. We’re bringing a relatively new believer with us out to Sight and Sound to see Daniel in August 2024. That's why we're going through the book of Daniel at home in extreme detail.

That’s Ezekiel.

Ezekiel is my thing.

Vision

It is the time to make it your thing. The last thing that Charles talked about is vision. We've heard, “Where there is no vision, the people perish.” I don't know if you know this about my dad but he flunked out of school in the eighth grade. He went on to get his GED and become one of the most wise people out there or a guru. He had this hunger for leading. He had a few men in his life and women, my mother, one of them, who gave him the affirmation that he did not have growing up.

Path To Purpose: If there is no vision, the people perish.

He would tell me, “Tracey, vision is nothing more than Snally seeing what needs to be done.” We all can do that but then doing it, there's this very pragmatic action-oriented execution type step that he takes not just in theory but in reality. You're talking about you're on your third career. How do you set the stage for vision and what's next? A lot of our audience are like you on their third and fourth couple retirements but you show no signs of slowing down. How do you craft what's next?

I want to take you back to what my plan was during my undergraduate and when I was getting an Engineering degree. I had my vision but it wasn't God's vision. You wanted to talk about abandonment. It fits right in with that as well. I didn't put two and two together. This is like Monday morning quarterback. You look back over it and it's easier to see than in real-time. I've got a vision.

My first career was in the Army. My second career was in Wall Street. In my third career, I decided to strike out on my own and do cybersecurity and public speaking to be able to generate the leads for doing the cybersecurity consulting. I also want to be able to build an organization where I raise people who understand what I do so that you can become me if that makes any sense.

I don't want to get too much into detail, except to say I've been in five startups in my career. None of them made me rich but the main thing is that I do understand the startup mentality. You're waiting for the payoff in the future. You're not expecting it now. This is all part of the vision. You’re saying, “This is what I want to be able to see.” However, in this third career that I'm working on, I'm trying to leave my vision glasses, if you will, on a coffee table and saying, “Where's my God vision glasses?”

I'm trying to seek because I've got my ideas for what Curt Vincent wants. Yet, what am I supposed to do? I'm not quite sure of that. This is why I take you back to my first vision of working in the recording business. What I’m trying to do is to be able to be aware of when the Holy Spirit is moving. It’s when you're meeting somebody you didn't expect to meet. I didn't expect to meet you. I wanted to buy some books and material off your website for crying out loud.

Here, you've taught me humility as well. I'm gaining a lot about the knowledge of your dad. I want to make a digression here and say that your dad dropped out in the eighth grade. I know the story and also how he ended up at work. That's where that quote that he said about reading. I do a lot of audiobooks. You and I talked about that in an email but I do that because then I can do a lot of mowing the lawn and driving. I can consume a whole lot more. I do probably close to 24 books a year in that regard.

There's another person who is a little on the notorious side, Frank Zappa. I'm going to change the quote a little bit to make it PG but he says, “If you want to meet a girl, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library.” The whole point there is that you have to be focused on the vision of what it is you want to learn and then you consume a lot of books like your dad said and did to be able to use that as fodder so that you can be the vision that's designed for you can become more clear and you've got the tools so that you can affect that change in that vision.

If you want to meet a girl, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library.

I love that you talked about what's next. Vision has that future element. There's the past. We learn from the past. There's the present. We want to be mindful, enjoy, and be aware of where the spirit is leading us. It's why I wrote The Art of Tremendous. It's not my dad. It's if you do these things, then you get to be tremendous too. You can carry the moniker like tremendous Colonel Curt is carrying the moniker on. I love it. I'm interested to see what this next chapter is. It’s very exciting.

Thank you. I'll keep you posted on that. I have no clue.

I'm with you. Isn’t that beautiful though? The tendency is, “I'm going to go reach for my glasses again because I got to know what's going on.” God puts the glasses on you when He needs you to know. Until then, be present, be mindful, and fall deeper in love with Him. He'll make it clear when the time is right but it's hard for people like us.

I'll give you one more piece if I may and that is at the tender age of 68, I've learned the difference between praying and meditating. I shared with you on an email that there's a huge difference, and I'm not going to go into it, between presenting and public speaking. I didn't realize that until a few years ago. I want people to hear this. It was put to me in military terms by a friend who says praying is like transmitting. You're transmitting.

Anybody that's been around prayer knows that prayer is not supposed to change God. It's supposed to change us. Got that, but meditating is taking your finger off of the transmit button and listening. That's something I haven't spent a lot of time doing. I've spent a lot of time in prayer but I've not spent a lot of time in meditation trying to sit here quietly like Jodie Foster in Contact with a pair of headphones, trying to listen for what God is trying to tell me. There's a requirement for patience there. I want the answers now. I don't want to wait.

You said you're studying the book of Daniel. That's meditating. We get this idea that it has to be humming. That's good but anytime you're opening the word of God, His word is living and the Holy Spirit is speaking if you open your mind to that. You're meditating a whole lot more than you may think you are.

Thank you. I needed to hear that.

That's what I'm here to exhort you. Curt, we covered loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. It’s such a robust discussion. Thank you for sharing your journey with us. Is there anything else regarding leadership, because we're all things leadership here, that we haven't touched on that you would like to share with our audience?

Ego Vs Self-Confidence

The one thing we did not talk about is ego. There's a massive difference between ego and self-confidence. Ego is about you. Self-confidence is about the tools you've been given one way or another or in faith. Therefore, it’s the idea of relying on self-confidence, being open, having the receptors out, and being able to keep the ego in check. I'm no different than anybody else. My ego gets out of control. My wife slaps me around and gets me back in line, which I do appreciate.

I would say it’s the idea of being able to truly understand the difference between those two. In leadership, everybody wants to follow someone who is at least acting like they know what they're doing. Therefore, you don't want to be so humble. You stand there with your hat in your hands going, “What do you think?” No, that's not the way it works. Therefore, it’s being able to keep those two in balance so that you're presenting something that people want to follow and feel confident in following, and then the ego, which can get out of control. There are countless Bible stories of ego getting in the way.

Path To Purpose: Keep your ego and self-confidence balanced to present something people want to follow.

I was reading Clarence Larkin's book on Dispensational Truth written in the '20s. One of his points is the Bible has to be inspired by God because nobody would write a book so damning of their culture, race, and civilization. As the 44 authors of the Bible, we'd only put about the good stuff. Not that I have any doubt that it is the revelation of God but who else across the history of time would write about the Jews writing about their horrific failures, David, the gross moral sins, Moses, Esau, and Cain? It goes on and on.

The other thing about is Paul outside of crisis. The leadership of Paul in Romans 8 is saying, “In my spirit, I want to do right but my flesh, I can't help myself.” We have to struggle with that as leaders. We still are part of this earth, even though we're regenerated. We have victory but we still have that old sinful nature. What does he say? “It causes me to do everything I don't want to do.” We can't do a Flip Wilson, “The devil made me do it.” We still have control.

The other one is, “New levels, new devils.” As you continue to grow in your faith and knowledge, the devil has to get very crafty in finding new ways to seduce you, wear you down, or depress you. You've got to stay in fight and force as you know who's been fighting bad guys his whole life. I love the thing on ego. That's the root of everything. All bad things start with pride and ego. Curt, how can people get in touch with you? You're a speaker and you like talking to different groups. There's anybody out there in a corporation. Do you speak at events or trade shows?

Yes. I've been trying to focus more on senior leaders and boards only because boards are being held accountable. They can be fined and go to prison if they're not showing fiduciary responsibility to cybersecurity. I focus more on leaders. My big thing is I demystify. What do I mean by that? You get 50 cybersecurity people together and they want to talk all the geeky stuff. Therefore, it frightens CEOs and presidents. I boil it down to where this is not hard. We need to be able to talk about this and break that down. That's what I do. The easiest way is simple. It's CurtVincent.com. That's where my speaking site is with contact data.

Path To Purpose: The easiest way is really simple.

You also have an email of dry bones. Do you want to talk about that?

I do. Funny you should mention that too. Dry bones are important to me. It comes out of Ezekiel 37, a vision that Ezekiel had. For those who are not familiar with it, I'll tell you in 30 seconds, God gave a vision to Ezekiel and showed him a valley full of skeleton bones. They represented the people of Israel, who were no longer following God. God brought him to this valley in a vision and said, “Can these dry bones live again?” Ezekiel answered, “Only you know, God.” He says, “You're going to help. This is what you're going to do.”

The dry bones through the story come together, muscle sinew, and then become human beings again as they get watered through the word. The word dry bones is important to me because it represents a second chance. My wife and I bought this place in Pennsylvania. This is my 23rd move. I told Maria, “I'm not moving again. They're taking me out of here with a toe tag.”

That's what my husband says about this house. He says, “The only way I'm leaving here is that a body is in a casket.”

We're doing that but we named our place Dry Bones Farm. The only thing we grow here is old. The reason I mentioned that is on the property, we have a small barn but it's more of an outbuilding. I'm building a recording studio in there as a place where I can do music, recording, Bible studies, or whatever I want to do in that facility. That's why dry bones are important to me. The barn is the holy of holies.

For those of you not familiar with Ezekiel, there are a couple of different animated things on YouTube. I remember the first time I saw it. Ezekiel wasn't one of those you dwell on, not anymore. I was mesmerized by talking about regeneration through Christ, even before Christ had through the word and the beginning was the word. Curt, thank you. Get in touch with Curt. Curt, you got to write a book too.

I'm working on it.

I’m glad to hear it because we got to hear your word too. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with our audience. I’m so thankful that we connected. I’m glad to hear you're close by. I look forward to many more tremendous interactions with you.

Thank you so much for having me on. I hope the words were encouraging for some.

To our audience out there, if you like what you heard, please hit the like and subscribe button. If you would do us the honor of a five-star review, that would help other audiences looking to pay the price of leadership know that this is a great place to come for resources and advocacy. As Curt said, remember, you're going to be the same person five years from now that you are today, except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read so keep them both tremendous. Thank you so much for paying the price of leadership. Have a tremendous rest of the day.

Important Links

• Curt Vincent

• The Master Plan of Evangelism

• The Contrarian's Guide to Leadership

• The Art of Tremendous

• Dispensational Truth

• LinkedIn

About Curt Vincent

Curt Vincent is a cybersecurity maverick in both the Army and Wall Street. Founder and leader of the 400-person Morgan Stanley Cyber program. Leader since becoming a Sergeant at the age of 19.

Curt demystifies cyber security for senior leaders, C-staff, and boards. It's not just the technology; it's the people and the culture. Insurance claims data shows that as many as 80% of cyber breaches occur because employees unwittingly invite criminals into their company. With Curt, you can feel confident and protected.

Episode 185 - Derek Kilgore - Leaders On Leadership

Leadership is all about embracing both the highs and the lows. This episode’s guest finds comfort in the impact a leader creates through it all. Dr. Tracey Jones engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Derek Kilgore, a grounded leader and financial advisor with Northwestern Mutual. Together, they pull back the curtain on the challenges and triumphs of leadership, discussing topics such as overcoming loneliness, navigating weariness, making strategic decisions about abandonment, and crafting a compelling vision for the future. Derek shares personal experiences and practical insights, emphasizing the importance of meaningful connections, intentional prioritization, and the relentless pursuit of a vision. Whether you're a seasoned leader or aspiring to be one, this episode offers valuable lessons and inspiration to help you on your leadership journey.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Derek Kilgore - Leaders On Leadership

I am very excited because my guest is Derek Kilgore. Let me tell you a little bit about Derek. Derek is a grounded leader with a heart-centered and results-focused approach. He and his wife, Amber, live in Littleton, Colorado with their two children, Addison who is 12, and Ethan who is 10. Derek is a financial advisor with Northwestern Mutual and leads a team of 15 advisors in his office. Derek, welcome.

Tracy, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited about our conversation.

Thank you, Derek. As I read to the folks, he is an advisor with Northwestern Mutual and that is how we connected. I am with the Center for Military and Veterans Affairs at the American College of Financial Services. I teach their CLF designation, which is their chartered leadership fellows. Derek is taking this tremendous certification because he is very serious about leadership. In the course, I'm like, I would love to have you on my show and Derek graciously accepted, so thank you again.

You're so welcome. I was excited and I think we got a lot to talk about so I'm looking forward to it.

We do. Let's get right into it. My father gave a speech many decades ago, many times. Probably his most often given speech, he was a world-renowned motivator, but he also talked about leadership. very pragmatic, very real. He talked about the price of leadership in that if you are going to be wearing the crown or the mantle of leadership, there's a price you're going to have to pay. You need to be aware of it. In that, he listed four things, the first of which is loneliness. We've all heard that it's lonely at the top, but can you unpack for the leaders tuning in, what does loneliness in leadership look like for you, maybe a time you went through it? Any words of wisdom or resources you can share with our audience?

I love the idea of being vulnerable in the conversation about these are the hard things around leadership and the things that we struggle with. I think it's so easy and tempting to write a beautiful book about all the amazing accomplishments that we've done and all the awesome trophies and look at all this stuff. That can be inspiring, but I think it often can be somewhat defeating. Let's talk about what it's like and let's build alongside each other. I love this idea.

Around loneliness, I am a very connected person and I feel very deeply. It's very important for me to have meaningful and deep relationships with the people around me. I've struggled quite a bit with the loneliness factor. People inside my immediate professional circle professional, they totally get what we're doing right. They're building something alongside, they're in another office in another state or another city and we're encouraging each other. That's amazing and helpful.

Outside of my professional world, people don't understand what I'm building and what we're doing and leading people on a large level. Especially being in the financial services world, I think people look at that as like, "Are you guys on Wall Street up there? What are you doing over there?" They don't understand. There is a little separation where the wins that I have, if we are hitting a recruiting goal or we're hitting a metric for our office or a sales target, we're so excited about that, and then I share that with people outside of my professional world and my church community or my friends. They're happy for me. They're like, "Yay, good job, Derek," but they don't understand what it took to do that and what the scale of that accomplishment is.

On the other side when I'm oh we had this amazing recruit, "He was coming in in April and then he decided to take another job and we were so bummed out because he was going to be a perfect fit for our team. It was an alignment." The curve ball, I share those heartaches and people are like, "That's a bummer. I'm sorry that happened," but they don't understand that it's a big deal. It's important to do that.

Loneliness outside of my professional world has been a challenge to fill. What I've done to mitigate that is surround myself with people who get what I'm doing. People who are building alongside, creating accountability metrics, and also encouraging relationships that say, "What are you working on? I know you were hunting that goal down. How's that working out for you?" They can do the same for me. To mitigate the loneliness as much as possible has been very helpful.

I love that you said building alongside because I would venture probably 80% of our audience are entrepreneurs or retired once, twice, or thrice from other entities and now are already served. It's so important. You talk about building your business, especially in the financial services sector. You need to be with people who are like that because otherwise, you get somebody who may be in a 9:00 to 5:00. They can be very discouraging because the world we live in where you can only eat what you kill, it's a whole different thing. I love that you talked about get people that get you. Sometimes even your family. I can remember my dad saying, "Honey, I got man of the year." She's like, "Where's the check?" She didn't get the fact that all these things are necessary.

I'm echoing that exact thought. Align yourself with people that get you. I've got a buddy, Scott, who we met at church and he's about 20 years ahead of me. We'll talk about mentorship here in a minute, which is crucially important. He totally gets my world. He's built businesses. He's taken them public before. For me to share and for me to feel heard reduces the loneliness factor.

Align yourself with people that really get you.

That's so important because you want to quit. We all want to quit. Especially entrepreneurs, why shouldn't we quit? Why shouldn't I go back to the easy secure way? You get people who have already gone through it and they understand what you're going through. I love that. We talked about loneliness. Next, we talk about weariness. Before you came on, I asked Derek how he was and he was talking about being busy. You talked about sleep, water, rest, and all that stuff. This plays onto weariness because even in times of abundance we can get stretched too thin. Can you talk to us with everything you have going on, you're a father, you're involved in a lot of different things, and building a business, how do you day energized at top form?

We could probably spend hours talking about this subject, about effort and rest at the same time. I've learned this phrase called equipoise, which means two things at the same time. Two things that are both true at the same time but could appear to be opposite. This idea that we can have full effort into our life and also a healthy amount of rest is the ultimate challenge. I think we could all work ourselves to death. Brene Brown says, "Some people wear overwhelmed like a badge." They're proud of how overwhelmed they are. It's like, no, I don't want that, but I do want a high amount of success and a high amount of accomplishment. I want to maximize the life that God's given me, but I also don't want to burn out, be exhausted all the time, not present with my family, and not loving my wife the way she deserves.

There is a tricky balance between the two. Maybe balance isn't even the right word. I like the word harmony quite a bit, meaning some things are louder at certain seasons of my life and some things are quieter in certain seasons of my life. Sometimes the percussion set is taking a solo and it's like this crazy moment. Sometimes it's this peaceful sauna that's playing. The harmony of the pieces of my life, I work hard to do that.

Practically, what that means for me, that's been so helpful. I modeled it after one of my mentors, Ben. The quiet time in the morning is the most important time of my day. I've heard it say, "If you win the morning, you win the day." I'm typically up around 5:00 or 5:30. I try to do 30 minutes, sometimes an hour in the Bible, I'm reading and praying. Sometimes I literally just sit in my chair and be quiet because I know starting at 6:30 or 7:00, it's to the gym and then in the shower and then meetings back to back all the way through. Full productive. We're rocking and rolling all the way through, and then it's home, then dinner, then the kids, then some fuss is going to happen, and then it's in my bed and I'm going to sleep.

I know if I don't carve out the first hour of my day, there also is a tide element I think into that, meaning giving the first of your day and the first of your money to God. If I don't do that, I feel like I'm out of sorts. I work hard to compartmentalize that part of my day. Also, I feel like it gives me more freedom to drive into my day harder because I know I've already rested and I feel renewed and I'm not going to get burned out. That cycle has been very helpful for me in order to stay grounded and stay rested while also producing at a high level.

"Win the morning, win the day." You talked about it being your first fruits, that is a biblical concept. You give your best. We're republishing Ben Franklin's way to wealth, early to bed, early to rise. It seems like it's one of those constants out there thinking of financial geniuses. I love that you talked about that. It's so important. When you say balance, it's not like at any given time we can walk away from something. Balance implies something is down, but I love the harmony or the synergy or something is louder, something is a little bit lower.

I would say 99% of our guests talk about that first hour and how important that is to get your spirit fed first because that's what fuels. When you get burned out and tired, it's not your body. I know we're mere human beings. Hopefully, we know enough to take care of ourselves and get rest and stuff, but your soul's tired. Something's not getting fed.

The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry: How to Stay Emotionally Healthy and Spiritually Alive in the Chaos of the Modern World

I totally agree with that. Have you read the book, The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry?

No. Sounds tremendous.

It's awesome. The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by a guy named John Mark Comer. It's exactly what you described is giving us space for our souls to rest. Left to our own devices, I think we would all, for a million miles an hour, everything's on fire, total chaos, always distracted, always on our phones, and there's a real effort to being restful and being settled. Check that out. It's a very interesting read. I think you'll like it.

I love the title. Thank you. You always recommend the best books. We've been recommending books since we met.

That's right.

We talked about loneliness. We talked about readiness. The next term my dad talks about is abandonment. For those of us in pet rescue or fear of abandonment, that's not the abandonment he's talking about. He's talking about the ruthless elimination of whatever it is that is sucking away the best and highest. Hurry, how do you abandon hurry? With everything that comes to you and you know you've got a million people, you're getting good ideas from, how do you stay tightly focused, singularly focused so you can channel your best into that vision that we will talk about next?

Abandonment, this is a beautiful concept. I think it comes down for me to having the courage to say no to things that are good so that I can say yes to the things that are great. I think that summarizes it. Let's break it down, but I think that's a good starting place because we all have good things in our life. We have relationships, opportunities, business stuff, coaching, "Can you be on this podcast?", and all this stuff. You're deciding, is this good or is this great? Sometimes we need to say no to something that could be awesome and very profitable and probably what God wants us to do in the end. It's not bad. It's pretty good. We need to say no to that and leave some space for something that we couldn't even think of or didn't see around the corner, comes around, and we're like, "That was amazing."

For me, practically what that means is every year, sometimes I'll do it twice or quarterly, but at least every year, I'll reprioritize the things in my life. I literally get a piece of paper out and write down, professional life, my leadership responsibilities, my family, my relationship with my wife, my relationship with my kids, my relationship with God, my responsibilities at church, this other side project I'm working on. I look at them and I ask myself introspectively, are those misaligned? Are we putting more time and energy towards the wrong thing? How much effort and energy we're putting toward each thing? Is it the right priority order?

For me, that priority is first my relationship with God, and then second my relationship with my wife, then my kids, then my professional world, and then all my church responsibilities. At times, those have turned upside down or mixed around and the reassessment helps line out what's most important. What that does for me is it allows me to go with so much more confidence to do the things I need to do because I know it's the best and highest priority. It's easier for me to say no because I know that I'm doing the thing that's the highest priority. What do you think about it?

I love when you say no to people and you have a reason for it because this is what I'm focusing on right now. People get that. I think sometimes we're like, "I don't want to let that person out." When you explain that to them with truth and say, "Listen, this is great, but right now my main focus is this. Can we reconnect in 3 or 6 months down the road?" I love that you talked about that because everybody in the CLF talks about this. When we lay out our refocus or recalibrating or are pruning away not the highest and best use of our time, we do talk about the different areas. Family, faith, financial, physical, relational, volunteer.

For the audience out there, don't try and throw it all onto one plate. Be very intentional about teasing it out and looking at specific goals. People are like, "It all links back up to the one thing." I think sometimes people try and take on too much and it's very good. Successful leaders like Derek sit down with a piece of paper and scrap up. We all do it. It's not like, "Haven't you figured it out yet?"

There is no amount of time during the year that it's not good to recalibrate your flight plan because remember, things are changing too. Doors are opening, doors are closing. There are unexpected things, an illness, a bonus, or an opportunity. Thank you so much for that. I love that you shared with the audience that you get the old-school piece of paper out and write that stuff down.

I love your comment about recalibrating your flight path. That is exactly it. You're in flight and you're like, "Let's make sure we're on track for where we're supposed to be going. Are we in the right seat? Do we have enough fuel?" Recalibrating is so helpful. I remember a time when I wasn't doing that and it didn't go good, so I thought I might share that story. It was the end of 2021 is when this happened. The business was going okay, but it wasn't really where we wanted it to be. I was turning the flywheel hard, like working a lot of hours and putting my effort and energy toward it, believing that this thing was going to take off and be amazing, but it wasn't amazing at the time. It just was okay. My wife's like, "I think you could do it. It's going to be great." I'm like, "This is hard." I'm working.

There are people ahead of me like, "He's there or she's there, it can be built." I was right in the thick of, someone had to graph around the valley of despair. You're excited about the thing, and then it's going great, and then you go to this valley of despair, and you're like, "I'm in over my head and I'm not making the money I wanted to." The failures are stacking up longer than the successes. I was right in that moment at the end of 2021.

I then did that exercise and I realized that part of the problem is I'm giving too much of my time away to my church responsibility. I was on the executive leadership team at the church and I was putting in a bunch of energy and effort. That wasn't producing a ton of fruit, but I felt like it's good work, obviously it's growing the church. I also had some other personal things that I was doing for fun that weren't filling my cup.

It's like good or great. I think it was that comparison. I did the sheet of paper and I was like, "This is a hard decision but this church responsibility has to go down a couple of notches. I got to put my business relationship higher up, my business adventure at a higher level of priority." I talked to Amber about it and she was like, "That makes total sense."

I had a hard conversation with my leadership team at the church and I said, "Obviously I'm still in this thing and love you guys. I just need to put my focus or turn my flashlight toward this business. We're at a crucial point where we need to get out of this dip." Like you said, they were so gracious, so kind to say, "We love you. Go crush it." I felt validated in that, and then we did. We had a great year in 2022. 2023 was even better. I want to share that story for our audience to say, it's okay if it's not going okay. It's okay if it's not going the way you thought there is a path forward.

It's okay if it's not going okay. It's okay if it's not going the way you thought. There is a path forward.

I thought that you said in the thick. You're talking about this and I don't know if I should laugh or cry because I remember those days. I still have them, but I'm laughing because we've all been there. When you talk about being in the thick, that is a great point for our audience out there. That's probably a great indication for you to say, "Stop. Let's lay it out on a paper and see exactly what's going on."

The second point that I love you talking about, you said to be fruitful, not be workful or be productive, but be fruitful. I'm all for kicking down doors and making it happen, but if you've been kicking on the same door for three years, it might be time and there's something not meant to happen. Like you said, you're a man of face, so you and I both know that we're being oriented towards, there are other circumstances, blessing, and things coming into our life. Again, if it's not bearing fruit, I don't want to say quit, but be honest about that and see what you need to do.

As you said, you went to your church leadership and you were honest with them. If you are out of whack or out of balance and you have to throttle back from something, don't just ghost people. Don't just leave them wondering, "I wonder why Derek isn't so engaged anymore. I wonder why Steve stopped coming to our board meetings." Be honest with them because otherwise, that person is like, "Did I do something wrong? Are they upset?" Everybody who loves you understands time is precious. We time tied. That's so wonderful that they would be fully supportive of you, but had you not had the courage to speak truth and love with that tough conversation, they might have been like, "Why is our brother dissing us?" That's never good.

Also, to echo that point, I felt more supported and more encouraged to go into this new season because they were like, "Let us know how it goes. We're rooting for you."

They're praying for you. They can support you from another facet of your life because they know it's all congruent. When you get this dialed in, then you can come back and touch on that again. Like I said a lot of times, like you said, when you're in the thick, we don't want to let people know we're in the thick, we tend to isolate ourselves. Worst possible thing we can do. We don't want to throw out our lifelines.

Loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. I can remember sitting around as a little girl listening to people like Og Mandino, Zig Ziglar, and Norman Vincent Peale thinking, "These guys are smart. How do they get so smart?" I'd hear people talk about vision. I'm like, I'm not sure if I was born with that. My father was always like, "Tracy, vision is simply seeing what needs to be done and then doing it. Otherwise, you're a dreamer or you're a doer." You don't know where you're going. Like we said, you're a busy little bee. Either/or you're dreaming but you're not putting anything to work. Your vision for your business and what's next? You are growing an agency so everybody's looking to you and you have all these different pieces. How do you own your vision for what's next?

We could spend lots of time talking through this subject because it's so powerful. I think I have struggled with vision early in my career. For me, what I struggled with was believing that big things were possible. That was hard for me. We came from a modest income and lifestyle. Both my parents worked their whole life. They were moderately successful. We didn't go without by any means. I paint that picture because in the financial services world, some of the people who've been here for 30 years and have built tremendous businesses, they're wildly successful. The amount of income that they're bringing in is a pretty big number.

When I say I struggled with believing for big things, that's what I mean. It took a lot of effort and a lot of faith for me to be like, "No, I am deserving and worthy of running a successful practice, earning a healthy income, making a big difference in people's lives, and being present for my kids and for my wife." Believing that took a lot of effort. I don’t want to start there because it's not easy. It's not like you roll out of bed and go like, "I'm going to be the next Disney. I'm going to make this humongous." That doesn't happen. It takes a lot of effort to build a vision. Do you have comments on that?

Leadership: I am deserving and worthy of running a successful practice, earning a healthy income, and making a big difference in people's lives.

No. It's funny because one of the things in the CLF was guys how to write your vision and how you're incorporating that, so no. Keep going.

Some practical things that helped me quite a bit. One, I had examples to follow. I had people that I could look up to, buy a cup of coffee, meet with, sit with, buy lunch, and visit with them. Just ask them about their life like, "How did you get there? What is your life like? What are you struggling with. What's going good?" That way, it's not this abstract idea. It's like, I don't want everything that Mike's life is like and I don't want everything like Rachel's life, but I want a little bit of that. That seems pretty good. Her life is pretty cool. It helps you believe more if you can see and meet people who are ahead of you. That takes some humility to go, "I'm not where I want to be but I'd like to be where you're at in 5 or 10 years. Can I buy you a cup of coffee? I'd love to hear."

They're always so honored. They're always like, "I'm still trying to figure it out and you think you want to be like me?" It's always a great connected moment, back to loneliness, helping mitigate that. You then get to use parts of their life as an example on how you want to build yours because if you've never seen what an amazing and tremendous life is like, it's easier to see it from someone else already having it been done, and then you can start to build it yourself.

I love that. To reverse engineer. I love that believing that big things are possible for you. Derek, I know you say your parents were moderately successful but they raised and had you.

I don't mean to downplay my parents. They're amazing.

I'm kidding. I'm just looking at like, "Your parents must be so proud of you." I'm so proud of you and I'm just your acquaintance.

I appreciate that. I had one other thought. Here's a practical idea. I have a vision document that I use typically once a year. I have almost all of my advisors use it on a regular basis. It has the categories of life. This isn't like a hard and fast rule, but generally speaking, the categories of someone's life, spiritual, physical, emotional, financial, relational, and professional as well. Those areas are pockets of someone's life. It's helpful to own this document, write out 2 or 3 sentences of what that part of your life looks like in 24 months. Sometimes 10 years is too far, and I think 6 months is good but you want to stretch it a little bit, so the 2 to 3-year mark works well.

The cool thing is you write it in first person. It sounds like, "I am a loving and present husband and I treat my wife with respect." All these amazing things that you are. "I'm running a successful business and earning this income and I'm impacting my clients in this way. I am a physical body is strong and I sleep well at night." The more detailed, the better, and then you have a literal document, you put it on your wall, you read it, and you're reading the picture that you've painted of the life that you're building.

It helps as a true north to go, "Why are we working so hard and why is it worth the fight?" You then read the document about what your life is going to look like in 2 or 3 years and you go, "Yeah, that's what we're doing. That's who we want to be. That's what we're building. That's what we're going to." That has been tremendously helpful.

We covered loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Anything else that you want to talk about on leadership, because then I want to talk a little bit about what you do?

Real quick, an advice I would give everybody across the board if they're willing to listen is have somebody who's pouring into you, walk alongside someone who's at your same stage, and always be pouring into someone else. If those three things in your life are happening at every stage, you're more better off than less. You're more doing it the best way than not.

Have somebody who's pouring into you, walk alongside someone who's at your same stage, and always be pouring into someone else.

It's so funny you said that because I can remember 6 years ago when I met my husband. Of course, I was coaching and like you, we pour a lot into people. I remember he looked at me and said, "I read books so I get it. I have my faith, I get it." He's like, "Who's pouring into you?" I remember thinking, I think we overlooked that. Most of our audience are probably like, "Really, Tracy? I didn't." I think it goes without saying be very intentional because that keeps you from getting stagnant. That's the way it's supposed to be to keep that regenerative cycle.

Exactly.

So important. Derek, you're talking about your job as a financial planner. I'll tell you out there for our audience, the more I interact with these people, if I had to do over again, listen to Derek talk about his vision. If I had to do over again, I would've signed up. I would've found Derek and been one of his advisors and helped him grow his business. For anybody out there looking, it's such a tremendous opportunity.

I know what it did for my father, Charles. He had no education, he had nothing, but it is an industry that you'll help people mitigate the risks in life, build for their dreams, and build to take care of those that they love. Like you said, you get to build whatever you want it to be. Yes, it's hard work, but what isn't? I marvel at what you're doing and the gift that you do for other people and helping them achieve financial wealth and most of all security.

I appreciate you saying that. I love that comment. You can build it however you want. I came from a culinary background, so years ago, I was a chef. I didn't even go to finance at college. I worked in the kitchens for almost ten years and have a culinary degree, and then realized that I want to do something more significant. It's been an uphill battle, no doubt, but I just share that story to say, this is not a well-educated Harvard grad that needs to have a finance degree. It's like, if you want to build something, help people, and make a difference in other people's lives, it's a tremendous career.

It is, and my dad didn't even have a high school diploma. I'll tell you what, the company you're working for, Northwestern Mutual, nobody trains better than that. They will not let you fail. That's what's a beautiful thing. Derek, what was the thing at culinary school? Had you heard about this? For our audience out there that may be at a point where they're like, "What's next?" I have a couple of friends midlife that I'm talking to and I'm like, "You need to look into this industry." What made you make that pivot?

I was running a catering business that was mildly minus is how I would describe it. That's not a word I know, but it's like less than mild. Again, I'm working my butt off doing this thing and it wasn't working. It was like not doing what we needed it to do.

Yeah, I know.

That was on its way in a folding fashion, and then my advisor tugged my sleeve and said, "Derek, I think you'd be good as a financial advisor." Honestly, my first thought was like, that's a nice compliment, but I don't know anything about financial planning. That is not in my wheelhouse. I'm not even understanding why you're asking me that question.

I then unpacked. It's not about how beautiful a portfolio you can make or how great at math you are or algorithms, it's about connecting with people and a lot of effort, but building relationships and wanting to build something yourself, wanting to be an entrepreneur, and wanting to grow something. You can learn the tools and the skills of financial planning. You can learn how to build an insurance tool. You can learn how to build a financial plan. You can understand how Roth taxation limits work. You can learn the skills, but the hard around building something and helping people was what drew me to the business.

Leadership: It's not about how beautiful a portfolio you can make or how great at math or algorithms you are. It's really about connecting with people.

Derek, now that we mention that, how do people get ahold of you? Is there a preferred manner?

Yeah, sure. You'll put my email and probably my website in the link. Best way is to click that and check out my website. I'd love to connect and always up to chat.

To our audience and Derek, thank you so much. I got a lot of great notes. The way you say things, you got me laughing and reminiscing about my own personal journey. What a joy to have you share with our audience about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. We wish you so much more success. I know you'll achieve it.

I appreciate that very much. It's been awesome hanging out with you. Thank you.

You're welcome. To our audience out there, thank you so much. If you like what you heard, please hit the subscribe or share button. If you do us the honor of a review, we would be so thankful. Share this with other people. Share this with your friends. I know your leaders, you hang out with a lot of leaders that are maybe looking at how to pay the price of leadership to encourage and inform them. Always remember, you're going to be the same person 5 years from now that you are now, except for 2 things, the people you meet and the books you read. Make sure they're both tremendous. Thanks so much everybody. Have a tremendous rest of your day. Bye.

Important Links

• Derek Kilgore

• The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry

About Derek Kilgore

Derek Kilgore is a grounded leader with a heart-centered and results-focused approach. He and his wife, Amber, live in Littleton, Colorado, with their two children, Addison, 12, and Ethan, 10. Derek is a financial advisor with Northwestern Mutual and leads a team of 15 advisors in his office.

Episode 186 - Jon Gordon - Leaders On Leadership

The business scene often glorifies the nonstop grind, believing that the only people who succeed are those who do not even take a pause or a break. However, this means they do not have to celebrate their wins and feel gratitude to the people around them. Jon Gordon makes sure that he does not commit this mistake and therefore puts gratefulness and joy as his core values. Joining Dr. Tracey Jones, he explains how gratitude plays a huge role in becoming a positive leader who does not lose sight of their vision. Jon also remembers how he jumped back from a failing cookie venture to launching a successful leadership training program.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Jon Gordon - Leaders On Leadership

Welcome to the show where we pull back the curtain on leadership and we talk with leaders of all ages and stages about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. I'm so excited because I have a very special guest. The one, the only, the tremendous, Jon Gordon.

‐‐‐

Jon, welcome.

It’s good to be with you. How are you doing?

I'm tremendous that I'm talking to you. You're probably like, “Jon Gordon. Don't I know that name?” You do. Are you ready? Jon is a husband and a father. He's also an author. His best-selling books and talks have inspired millions of readers and audiences around the world. He's the author of the timeless classics that we've all read, The Energy Bus, The Carpenter, Training Camp, The Power of Positive Leadership, The Power of a Positive Team, and his latest, The One Truth.

When he is not running through airports or speaking to businesses, hospitals, or schools, you can find him playing pickleball and taking long walks, which are where he gets most of his tremendous ideas. Jon believes in keeping his bio short because his past accomplishments are meaningless. You remind me of my dad there. What matters most is that he says something today that will inspire you to take action tomorrow. Jon, thank you again for carving out of your busy schedule to share with our audience.

I love that you're doing this and it's called Tremendous Leadership because it’s your dad’s brand. It’s what he was all about. My daughter is 25 and is speaking as well. She speaks with me. She does leadership talks. She does talks about teamwork and mindset based on my teachings. She and I are doing this, and you and your dad have that bond too. I love that.

I love that. How I connected with Jon is Jon shared the stage with my father. About a couple of months ago, we were both with Lead Like Jesus on their board with Ken Blanchard, Phil Hodges, and Phyllis Hendry. We were doing a 25-year anniversary and Jon was on there. You made a crack about my father when you were talking about coming up with new speech material. You said he said, “I don't need new material. I need new audiences,” or something like that. As a speaker too, I laugh about that. Do you want to share anything about my dad before we get started?

Sure. I learned about him a lot from Ken Blanchard talking about him. Ken would tell me stories because Ken is my mentor. I know your dad mentored Ken in many ways. It's cool how the torch gets passed. Ken would say that your dad said, “I don't need new material. I need a new audience.” It's about knowing what you're here to share and your core message. Often, we think we have to change it up all the time when you have this core message and you share it over and over again.

I told your dad's advice to Damon West whom I wrote The Coffee Bean with. Damon is known as the Coffee Bean guy, which is about not being an egg, not being a carrot. The carrot gets weakened in hot water. The egg gets hardened in hot water. They are both affected by the culture, the environment, and the negativity. The coffee bean transforms the water. It transforms the environment. It is not impacted by the environment, but it defines its circumstances and its environment. The power is within that coffee bean, and we have that power as well. As he's going out there sharing The Coffee Bean because we wrote this book together, I would always give him your dad's advice. It's so cool how a life touches a life. Did he grow up with a big family and a lot of kids?

Yeah. Six of us.

He grew up with a bunch of kids. He would say he didn't sleep alone until he got married, which is hilarious. Humor but incredible leadership. People would ask him, “How are you doing?” He is like, “I'm doing tremendous.” I talk about positivity. How can you not be positive when you are feeling tremendous? Your dad paved the way for guys like Ken and people like me to do what we do. It's so special to be with you. My daughter is carrying on the tradition as you carry on the tradition of your dad. It’s cool.

I can't imagine. That's so exciting. We talked about loneliness. One of the things he talked a lot about, and you hit on it John, is he was so great about leadership but also really funny. He had this beautiful duality about the bittersweetness of life, but he talked about the price of leadership. It was one of the top speeches that he gave. It's one of our little life-changing classics.

He says that if you're going to be doing leadership, it's not for everybody. If it was, the world would be a different place. He talks about the four tenets of leadership that you're going to have to be paying. The first of those is loneliness. We're all about positivity, energy, and atmosphere, but there are times in leadership when you are going to face loneliness. Can you tell us a little bit about maybe a time in your career when you dealt with that or what you would advise our audience if they are in a season of loneliness?

Yeah. Personally, I dealt with loneliness in terms of, for years, I was out there speaking, writing,  traveling, and going through the grind. It was me coming home and then being with my family. I didn't really have friends. I did not have friends for a long time. I couldn't make time for the friendships because I was so busy on the road speaking and doing this work. In many ways, it felt lonely.

COVID hit and I realized how much I miss people and how important relationships were. For COVID, it was the great separator. For me, it was a great uniter because I spent a lot of time with friends during that time and realized how valuable friendships were. It enhanced that connection with those friends and others.

When I think about leaders, I invest a lot in leaders and work with a lot of leaders. My goal is so they don't feel lonely because I know it could be very lonely at the top. You’ve got to build a team around you that you can pour into and who pours into you. You also need a group of colleagues. We see masterminds developing. We see confidants, inner circles, or whatever it may be. You want to build your board or build your circle of people who understand what you're going through and who can speak into your life.

Since it can get very lonely at the top, you have to build a team around you. Pour into them and they will pour into you.

YPO is big with that in terms of creating forums where different leaders will talk about their personal lives, their struggles, and their challenges so that we address loneliness. A leader who is isolated and lonely and feels separate and divided winds up doing things that are not good for them, their teams, and organizations. We want leaders to move towards wholeness, connection, and unity where they then feel more power and more at peace. They have these incredible relationships that make life and leadership so much more rewarding. I often say, “You may be alone at times, but you don't have to be lonely.”

You hit on it too. That is a choice. Going through the grind, we've all been there. We have grown our businesses. It's tough to pass up. You're hustling. I know how hard my father hustled until his last breath, but then you made the choice. That is a choice. You've got to be intentional about putting those networks out. I know you pour into people. Do you have a mastermind group that you're part of too that pours into you?

It’s not an official mastermind, but I have a group of friends that I connect with. Ed Mylett, who is a big name in the motivational speaking world, is a great friend. There’s Erwin McManus who is a pastor out of LA and also does a lot of speaking. I'll hang out with Erwin. A lot of different speakers are also my friends. We also are connecting and talking. There’s also John Acuff, Donald Miller, and Rory Vaden. This group will get together once a year. There's an author for authors meeting. We will get together and all share different ideas and practices. That's one thing I do.

Also, I work with a lot of sports teams. I'm good friends with Sean McVay, Eric Spoelstra with the Miami Heat, the head coach there, Dave Roberts, the Los Angeles Dodgers manager, and P.J. Fleck, the coach of Minnesota football. I connect with a lot of leaders that way. We connect, share, and talk about life, growth, and challenges. I have poured into and become friends with a lot of these leaders. I have found that the more that they have people around them including me, it's beneficial to them.

I love that. For our audience out there, some of you may think, “I'm not in a formal group.” That's okay. I've been in a season where I was in formal groups. I'm like you. I have my inner circle. My Peter, James, and John, my top tier of the people you meet. That's what my dad would talk about. For the audience out there, it can be something more formal. When you get to the point where you're established, you start to coalesce together. Thank you for that advice.

I have one other piece of advice. One great thing to do is to get on a text thread with a group of friends. Maybe it's 4 or 5 people. For us, it's 4 or 5 guys. We do a devotional. Every day, we send out a devotional and we all comment our thoughts on the devotional. It's a way to stay connected and also grow together.

Gratitude: Get on a text thread with a group of friends and do a devotional every day. This way, you can stay connected and grow together.

I love it. That's awesome. I know a lot of people do daily devotionals together. That’s very powerful. The next thing my dad talked about is weariness. As you're going through the grind, we're still more humans. My father would always tell me, “You're going to find a few people that do more than what's required, but a lot that do less.” You as an entrepreneur are wearing so many hats. You see the vision. How do you stay in top form? I know you talked about going out, walking, and playing pickleball, but how do you stay in your most tremendous form?

That's more important now than ever. I really believe we're understanding the importance of physical fitness for our mental health and how important exercise is. We live in a world where a lot of people will sit on the couch and watch TV. They're not active anymore. They don't walk. We've got to make sure that we are physically fit.

For me, as a former athlete, there was a time in my life when I stopped working out and stopped exercising and people noticed. My friend, Eric Spoelstra, the Miami Heat coach, said, “You used to look like a writer. You now look like an athlete again.” What happened was I had gotten fat and gotten heavy. I started to exercise again. I work out several times a week with weights and I build muscle.

From there, I'm also walking every single day for up to an hour. I walk and practice gratitude. Research shows you can't be stressed and thankful at the same time. While I'm walking and practicing gratitude, it's a double boost of positive energy for my life. It makes you feel tremendous when you do these gratitude walks. Those walks also have turned into walks of prayer which have been great as well.

I do these gratitude walks, and then I also am eating right and eating healthy. In the old days of people on the road eating a lot of junk food, too many speakers have eaten that way. I really focus on eating healthy even when I'm on the road. I've got the diet right. I've got the exercise. I've got the weights, which is essential. Men especially, but women as well, the more strong muscle you have from lifting, and it doesn't have to be big muscle, will enhance your longevity and your health for a longer period of time.

I feel better at 53 than when I was in my 30s. People say I look like I'm in my early 40s. It's because of my physical fitness, my overall health, and how I take care of myself. There's sleep. You have to make sure you are sleeping. I don't drink a lot. Once in a while, I drink. I'm not against drinking, but I don't drink a lot because I know it produces inflammation. There's a lot of sugar there, and it does affect your body and your motivation on going. I try to have really good habits.

When I'm on the road, I have to train like an athlete. When you're on the road, you're an executive, or you're in business and you're running a company, you have to have endurance. You have to have strength. You have to be able to get through the grind of a day. The more physically fit you are, the more mentally fit you'll be.

The more physically fit you are, the more mentally fit you will be.

I love that you said physical fitness is tied to your mental health. There's so much focus on mental health. Let's stop by and look at the body because we're all one entity together. I love the weights too. For women, it is bone density. If you want osteopenia at 55, don't pick up anything. That's why I got two Australian Shepherd puppies a couple of months ago. I'm going to have really hard bones.

I love that.

Thank you. We talked about loneliness and weariness. He talked about abandonment. It’s not abandonment in the sense of fear of abandonment or abandoning an animal. What Charles talked about was abandoning what you like and want to do in favor of what you ought and need to do. He was very hyper-focused as you said about him. The coffee bean, what is that one thing? I'm sure you get so many people that say, “You should write a book on this or this.” How do you stay focused on the best and highest use of your time of what God has uniquely called you to do? I'm sure anything you touch you could do.

That's true. In many cases, I've also done things wrong. I started Positive Cookie. I've created the Positive Cookie with a team of people. I invested in this business and thought it was going to be really successful. Every cookie came with a quote inside, a positive quote. It was an encouraging kind of cookie. I then realized it cost too much to make the cookie for what we could sell it for in grocery stores and I quickly had to walk away. I lost a lot of money. I could have stayed with it and eventually made it successful, but I heard the words loud and clear. It came to me. It was, “I did not put you on earth to sell cookies.”

I love that.

When that happened, I said, “Even though it was $150,000, I'm going to walk away,” and I did. Do you know what's cool? I said, “Why am I here? Besides writing and speaking, why am I here?” It was clear that I had the energy and capacity to do more than write and speak. If I could make a cookie and create a cookie company, I could do something else. That's when we launched Positive Leadership training, Positive Teamwork training, and Energy Bus certification. We have Jon Gordon certified that we’ve created this whole training company around. We're developing positive leaders, their mindset, their leadership, and their teamwork so they can create a great culture, great teams, and great organizations. That's what we're all about.

That came about because of the failed cookie. I talk about how it was a positive cookie, and then it became a negative cookie when it failed and I lost all that money. It became a positive cookie again when I realized I would've never started the training company if it wasn't for Positive Cookie. That's a great example that every challenge is an opportunity. Every failure is a lesson along the way.

It helped me realize, “Stay focused on your core. What are you meant to do? Why are you here? There are a million things you can do, but what are you here to do?” That comes with prayer. That comes with walking with your creator and saying, “God, what is my purpose? What is your plan for me? I'm open.” I'll often say, “God, make it idiot-proof because I'm an idiot. Make it so clear to me that this is for me or not for me.”

You'll try things out along the way. You might mess up here or you might fail there. You might say, “That's not for me.” Sometimes, you have to do trial and error, but for the most part, you don't want too many big mistakes where you go down the wrong path. You’ll spend your whole life climbing the wrong ladder. For me, I'm very clear. It's writing, speaking, training, and developing leaders. Along the way, it's around the idea that positivity is a competitive advantage. If I stay focused on that for the rest of my life, I'm going to be pretty solid.

Sacred Cows Make the Best Burgers

Your plate's going to roll. Thank you for your transparency because a lot of times, as entrepreneurs and as people who have a lot of energy, drive, vision, and ambition, we see things. We're like, “We could make it work,” and you could make it work. One of my favorite book titles is Sacred Cows Make the Best Burgers. You have to know when to hold them and when to fold them. I love that you   heard the voice that said, “You could do it, but there's better use of your time.”

I love that you said that that let you know you still have the energy and drive for some other creative element in your life and you got with God about it. Thank you. That story will really stick with me for a long time. We've all been there. I'm sure a lot of people on the show are like, “Him too?” I don't really know if that encouraged them.

We talked about loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. There’s then the word vision. We know from the Bible how important vision is. A lot of people call it different things. Growing up under visionaries like Ken Blanchard, Og Mandino, and Zig Ziglar, I'm like, “They have a different kind of blood flowing through their veins.” My dad was very pragmatic. He was like, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it.” This poetry but also the plumbing aspect of it. Can you tell us how you set forward your vision? I[1]  know you talk about prayer, but how do you envision for the future?

We teach this and train on this. We call it a telescope and microscope. Telescope is the big-picture vision of where you're going and why you're going there. It's your vision and your mission. We don't get burned out because of what we do. We get burned out because we forget why we do it. You know your why. You know the way. As a result of that, you're not going to let obstacles get in the way. The big-picture vision is essential.

A lot of times people have this big-picture vision but they don't take action. Your dad would say, “You got to do it.” That's the microscope. The microscope is the zoom focus actions that you'll take to realize the picture in our telescope. In our training, we have them write down, “What's in your telescope? What has to happen for your microscope to realize the picture and your telescope?” It creates a practical vision that you can implement.

What I have found is there are so many teachings out there where people say, “What's your vision? Where do you want to go?” and they leave it alone at that. That's it. They're done with that. I say, “There's more to it.” To really bring it to life, we teach to have one word for the year. Pick a word for the year that will give you meaning, mission, passion, and purpose. Your one word embodies the why behind the bigger-picture vision that allows you to remember it and take action each day. Often, we lose sight of our goals. We may even lose sight of our vision. One word is something you remember every day. It allows you to focus on it. It sticks.

We often lose our set of goals and the sight of our vision. But remembering just one word every day allows you to get your focus back.

My word this 2024 is first. I[2] t's first because I want to experience God's love first. God's first love is why we love. There's a scripture that says because of His love that flows through us, it gives us gratitude and joy. I was thinking, “I want more gratitude and joy in my life this year because I've been so busy striving and driving.”

The training company has taken a lot out of me because I'm leading it in many ways. Until I can hire a CEO, I'm running it. I'm also speaking and writing. What I'm realizing is I've got to connect to God first and seek the kingdom first. In that first love, I will have more gratitude and joy. That's driving me this 2024. It's what I think about every single day. It allows me to focus on the picture of what I'm trying to achieve in the telescope.

That is His highest calling for us. He wants us in communion with Him on earth. We're going to have it in eternity. I love that you talked about how to focus on that. Remember. Our Father has already seen it through to the end. He already knows who your CEO is. He already knows when they're coming. He already knows what's going to happen. We can focus on that and all the rest of it files into it.

I'm praying that happens from what He knows. I'm praying for a great man to come into my daughter's life at 25 who will love, honor, and adore Him. If He already knows that, God, make it happen, please.

That's beautiful. I finally found my great man at 56. It was worth the wait. That's all I have to say.

I love that. That's inspiring.

That's a perfect assignment. We talked about loneliness, awareness, abandonment, and vision. Is there anything else for our listeners out there that you would like to share about leadership? I then want to talk about how they can contact you with your courses and your books.

I love that you're doing this. Your dad was such a hero to me and to so many people. It's pretty incredible that you're carrying on that legacy. I think about the fact that he was so positive but also pragmatic. People often think about positivity. Being a positive leader is about Pollyanna positive. This is not about ignoring reality. It's about maintaining optimism, belief, and faith in order to create a better reality. As a leader, your positive mindset will help you be a more positive and better leader to build a stronger team. It's essential.

I want to give one strategy for people on how they can be more positive. People say, “Be positive,” but how? The best advice I ever heard was from Dr. James Gills, the only person on the planet to complete six double Ironman triathlons. That means you do an Ironman, and then a day later, you do another one.  The last time he did it, he was 59 years old. He was asked how he did it. He said, “I've learned to talk to myself instead of listening to myself. If I listen, I hear all the fear, the negativity, the doubt, and all the reasons why I can't finish this race. If I talk to myself, I could feed myself with the words and the encouragement that I need to keep on moving forward.”

As a leader, there are going to be days that we need to talk to ourselves instead of listening to those negative voices and negative thoughts. Those negative thoughts are not coming from you. How do I know? Who would ever choose to have a negative thought? The negative thoughts are always coming in. They're spiritual. They try to make you feel powerless. They try to weaken you and try to make you feel anxious. They divide you.

When I think about thoughts, I think about the fact that overthinking is always associated with negative thoughts. We never say, “I have too many positive thoughts.” We never say, “I'm too grateful right now. I  have too much encouragement right now. I'm feeling too confident.” We always associate overthinking with negative thoughts because that's what happens. Negative thoughts come in and they create clutter.

The root of the Greek word anxious means to separate and divide. When you're anxious, you feel separate and divided. That's what negative thoughts do. That's what fear does. It separates. It divides you. It makes you feel weak and powerless. All mental health disorders report feelings of being alone, isolated, and disconnected. What are people dealing with more than ever? Leaders are feeling lonely, disconnected, and separated. People are. Kids are.

The One Truth: Elevate Your Mind, Unlock Your Power, Heal Your Soul

I wrote The One Truth, my newest book. It came out months ago. That book is helping people to have a high state of mind to win the battle of their mind. It's based on biblical principles. Once you understand the one truth, you'll be like a Jedi in this world with a more positive mindset to lead better. Talk to yourself. Don't listen to those negative thoughts. You speak truth to the lies day in and day out. That will give you more power and more peace in God's presence to lead in a more positive and effective way. That's one tip I wanted to share.

Thank you. I know for our audience out there and for me, that talking to yourself is beautiful. I know your books are all on Amazon and they can pick them up. Is there a great place where people can connect with you? Is that how they can sign up for some of these courses and the leadership training that you have?

They can go to JonGordon.com or JonGordonCertified.com. We have a certification program that allows people to train and teach all of my concepts, principles, practices, and frameworks. That's a lot of fun. That was something I was expecting to do, but I know that's what I'm supposed to do after the whole cookie thing. That's our next wave. How can we impact leaders and trainers who are going out there to share this message of positivity, mindset, leadership, and teamwork?

We give them all the tools to do that and make an impact in their organizations or in other people's organizations.  They can go to JonGordonCertified.com. On Twitter, Instagram, and social media, I'm @JonGordon11. I write a weekly positive tip every week. I've been writing it since 2002. People could always sign up for that. I have a ton of free resources to help people as well.

I love it. I cannot thank you enough for your time and energy. I probably won't sleep for about two days because your energy is so amazing. It's so tremendous. Thank you for getting to serve alongside you with Ken and Lead like Jesus and what you meant to my father and what you meant to me. I'd love to stay connected. I know our audience is going to be so blessed, inspired, and informed by the information that you shared.

I look forward to it. Thank you so much. With Ken Blanchard, really quickly on that, I have to say he changed my life. He wrote the foreword to The Energy Bus. If he hadn’t written the foreword, I don't think that book would take off like it did. Your dad impacted him. He impacted me. You and I are impacting the next generation. Let's go do it.

It’s an honor. To our tremendous audience out there, thank you so much. We couldn't do it without you. Thank you for paying the price of leadership. Remember. You're going to be the same person five years from now that you are now except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. Jon has some tremendous books for you. You got to hear his wisdom. To everybody out there, if you like what you read, hit the like and subscribe button. If you do us the honor of a review, we would be tremendously blessed. Keep on paying the price of leadership. Have a tremendous rest of the day. Bye.

Important Links

• Jon Gordon

• JonGordonCertified.com

• Twitter - Jon Gordon

• Instagram - Jon Gordon

• The Energy Bus

• The Carpenter

• Training Camp

• The Power of Positive Leadership

• The Power of a Positive Team

• The One Truth

• The Coffee Bean

• Sacred Cows Make the Best Burgers

About Jon Gordon

Jon Gordon is a husband, father, and author. His best-selling books and talks have inspired millions of readers and audiences around the world. He is the author of The timeless classic The Energy Bus, The Carpenter, Training Camp, The Power of Positive Leadership, The Power of a Positive Team, and his latest, The One Truth. When he’s not running through airports or speaking to businesses, hospitals, or schools, you can find him playing pickleball and taking long walks, which are when he gets most of his ideas. Jon believes in keeping his bio short because his past accomplishments are meaningless. What matters most is that he says something today that will inspire you to take action tomorrow.

Episode 184 - Vicki Glogg - Leaders On Leadership

Finding your inner circles and cultivating those is essential so you don’t have to face the changes or problems alone, and instead, you have a team that supports you. Today on the Tremendous Leadership Podcast, Vicki Glogg, a Licensed Therapist and owner of the NEED Company, expresses the value of building and cultivating the people around you. She reveals that her higher power lifts her and giving herself the grace to find herself, snuffs out the flames of burnout. Vicki also discusses the importance of providing care for those around her. In this inspirational episode, Vicki highlights how Nine Eight Eight Design Company makes a difference. So, tune in to this episode now.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Vicki Glogg - Leaders On Leadership

Welcome to the show where we pull back the curtain on leadership and we talk with leaders of all ages and stages about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. In this episode, I am tremendously excited because my guest is Vikki Glogg. I want to tell you a little bit about Vikki. Vikki is a licensed therapist working at Penn State Health and Hershey, but she is also the small business owner of Nine Eight Eight Designs Company. If you're dialing that, it's NEED company. She has taken her love and passion for designing and making apparel and merchandise. She has combined it with her profession of mental health and suicide prevention awareness to sell products that help our community and the stigma. Vikki, thank you so much for agreeing to be my guest on the show.

Thank you for having me.

I'd like to tell our audience, because they're always like, "How do you meet all these tremendous people?" This past October, I was at the Tanya Nabis Women's Conference, the Be Extraordinary Conference. I was there with my table connecting and networking with people and the tremendous Miss Vikki came by. We shared some words and she shared a transition she was going through in her life. She got a copy of SPARK. Fast forward to about a week and a half ago, I got a note from her on LinkedIn. We immediately connected like you're supposed to. I got a note from her about this tremendous new chapter in her life. I'm like, "I got to have you on the show to share with it." I'm sure she's going to talk about that at the end of our show. Vikki, welcome again.

Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here and I'm honored that you had me on the show.

You're so welcome. Vikki, we're here to talk about the price of leadership. My father, Charlie "Tremendous" Jones wrote a book or gave a speech, I put it in a book format, many years ago. It was one of his keynote speeches and he called it the Price of Leadership. In it, he said that if you are truly going to be a leader, there are four things that you are going to have to deal with, all of us. No matter how successful or the worst leader in the world.

The first of them is loneliness. We've all heard that it's lonely at the top. Heavy is the head that wears the crown. Can you share with us a time in your life maybe where you went through a season of loneliness? If we have any of our audience out there who are in that season, maybe a resource or a word of advice that you would give to them?

It is and it can be very lonely at the top. I couldn't agree with your father more than that. Before I transitioned to the therapist role at Penn State, I was the clinical director of a rehab facility. I had to oversee a lot of staff. It was challenging at times because you would know the ins and outs of what's going on behind the scenes that you couldn't tell your staff yet. It was hard because you want to be such a transparent leader and inform them of what's going on. At the same time, you have to wait for the right moment to present that to your team and you want to present it to all of them at the same time. It's not whisper down the lane.

The most powerful thing that I've learned along the way is to utilize the other leaders that are in your army. I've always found that to be the most beneficial, whether it was having a clinical supervisor working underneath me, discussing these transitions, getting those feelings out like, "I can't believe we're doing this," processing behind closed doors, and processing those feelings because change isn't the greatest for everybody. How is each person going to respond? Also, look at the personalities of every member of your team.

Utilize the other leaders in your army.

By having those conversations with the director of nursing or the executive director or the chief clinical officer, all those other leaders who are in this army with you taking on that role and know what the processes are that are going on behind the scenes that the rest of the staff don't know, that's the most imperative thing to utilize. Those members that you can rely on and that you can process these things.

For me, it was always imperative that whenever we were having a meeting in regards to something changing, I would look at who was invited to that meeting and say, "These are people I can talk to about this." It's because I'm keeping it confidential until it's ready to roll out, but at the same time, these are the people who are going through this change with me. Even though I would work with a director of nursing, something may be changing with her in the medical field versus me in the clinical field. At the same time, as both leaders, we’re able to utilize each other. At the same time, there is that moment of loneliness in how she can't relate to me in regard to clinical.

It's like, who do I look at to support me in that element? It seems like being able to be aware of who is around me. For me, it was the chief clinical officer and the executive director, individuals like those that you can process those, and start looking and saying, "I looked at this process that we're about to change. Here are the pros. Here are the cons. Here's where I think we're going to have hiccups." The most important thing is processing and bouncing ideas back and forth on how to present this effectively, appropriately, and in a healthy manner to the team.

I know leaders like myself are like, "I dream of a team like that." If you are tuning in and you're blessed with a team like that, then you know how imperative what Vikki is talking about. Great wisdom. Vikki, how many people would you say were in this inner circle of yours that you could go to and help? I think there are a lot of misconceptions maybe about what that inner circle looks like.

For me, in the direct facility that I was working at, there were about five leaders. There were five of us, all of different backgrounds, all having different departments. Above us, we had our corporate leadership team that was very heavily involved. They were brilliant servant leaders. That's another little niche I will put in there that when people are asking, "What's your leadership style?" Servant leadership is the most profound, unique, and beautiful type of leadership style anyone can possess.

In corporate leadership, I had about three individuals that I would go to who knew what was going on. That was our chief clinical officer, our CEO, and our chief marketing officer. Those three people threw out the ideas, and then how are we going to work as a team to build that? The five of us would then develop those things amongst us.

That's so important for leadership. You have this tight inner circle, and then you have your other early adopters, and then it goes out from there, so there are ripples. For leaders out there, you will encounter loneliness. It's what it is. There's only one of you and you're the only one getting paid to do what you do. By the nature of what it is, you're going to be alone. Loneliness, like you said, I love that you talked about that. It's imperative as leaders, whether you've been in the job for 30 years or 3 minutes. Find those people in your in-group or your inner circle and make sure you cultivate that relationship because you're going to need them. I also like the waves. Rather than blast it all, get the ones who need to know the closest, the ones who can give you some whys before you broadcast it out to the masses or everybody else.

Leadership: Find those people in your inner circle and ensure you cultivate that relationship because you will need them.

That's one thing that I learned that skillset most recently in my previous position. Our executive director was amazing. He was outstanding and he had this process of his own for new processes that developed. He's like, "We have the introduction. We have the thought process of the pros, the cons, the hiccups, and the bumps in the roads that we may face. How are we going to present this to the team? Let's develop it." We would then have an early launch date. "We're going to pilot this new thing first."

We would then pilot it for about a month and it's like, "Here are the hiccups. Here are the changes. Here's this, that, and the third. Now, here's our official launch date." That's something that I took away from his leadership. Don't just gun it. Take those baby steps. Take it one small bite at a time. Don't gobble the whole cake. If you want your cake and eat it too, you have to take it piece by piece.

The next topic we're going to talk about is weariness. I'm sure in your role, especially in your new role, it's tiring. You have to be strong and mentally, physically, spiritually, everything to be a leader. My father would talk about weariness. A lot of times you have brilliant people on your team who fill you up or the wind beneath your wings. A lot of times, you also have people that aren't doing what they need to do and are fighting against you. They don't want to see you no matter what you're doing. No matter how much of a servant you are, they're not going to follow.

How do you deal with weariness? You are dealing with people in distress before. You have that empathy and you have that drain as you're pouring into them. How do you stay strong? Who pours into you and how do you stay at your top form so you can be this blessing that so many other people need?

In my last role, I didn't do as much of this as I do now. The one who lifts me up the most is my higher power. It took me a while to figure that out truly because I poured everything into my work, into my passion, into my drive, and into the facility I worked at. It was a 24/7 facility. I led everyone to believe that if the facility is 24/7, Vikki's 24/7. I burnt out. I literally killed myself and it wasn't healthy. When this previous position ended, I had to sit and reflect with myself on what happened. What happened in my life?

As you and I discussed when we first met, it was eye-opening to me that I needed to find myself again because the last thing any leader wants to do is be a hypocrite. That's how I truly felt when I look back on it because I was pushing so hard for my staff and my team to engage in self-care, to have boundaries with work, and to spend time with their families. I wasn't doing that but I was telling others to do that.

For me, when I got to this place of complete burnout, I said, "If I'm going to continue to do my passion and have that secondary drainage, I would always feel that emotional drainage from providing therapy to others, I need to look at myself first.” Through some self-awareness and some guidance and prayer with my higher power, I realized that I needed to take a step back.

I thought it was interesting that your dad talked about it a little bit in his speech and you as well in the book about taking that step back for a minute of being a leader and realizing, "I know down the road I'm going to be a leader again. I'm a born leader." At the same token, sometimes we need to find ourselves again in order to get to that place. For me, I took it as God's way of saying, "You need to reestablish your boundaries. You need to reestablish your self-care. You need to find your passion again." I had lost all of that because I had given so much to everything except for myself.

Take a step back for a minute from being a leader.

For me, the weariness, we can give so much to others, but eventually, our cup will empty. If we pour every single drop that we have into everybody else's cup and there's nothing left for us, then we will have nothing left to give. It took a turning point in my career to realize that, but it was the most powerful life event that could have happened for me.

I want to chime in here because I met you at that point. I don't know if it was that day or that moment, but I love that you said you're going to step away from being a leader, but it's going to happen again. God knows when. Remember, he's already seen this through all eternity. The fact when I met you, you were so raw. Thank you for sharing.

We've all hit burnout. My dad hit chronic fatigue. It happens to us because you've got to be very intentional about who pours into you. We work ourselves almost to death. You were so vulnerable in what you shared with me. You were so hurt in a tender way, not in an angry way. You owned it and you said, "I have to make a change, I don't know what it is," but then you took the time for self-reflection. For anybody tuning in out there where you're on the edge of the bottom have fallen out. Vikki, I would say when I met you, the bottom had fallen out, correct?

It did.

Everything you loved professionally, your identity because of pouring out too much, they said, "This is it." They gave you honest feedback and you took it. You were open to receiving it and then we connected and you were open to share with me. You didn't know me from anybody, but you were so up. I think God already was working that he already knew we were going to meet on October 16th or whatever it was even if you're broken. That's the time when you stay open because that mess got put away.

You give yourself grace. We all try so hard. We rely on God. We have great friends, but we still mess up. You gave yourself the grace to heal and reflect and not hide. I meet a lot of leaders when they go through burnout or the loss of something, they hide, they're embarrassed, and they're shamed. That's a self-imposed emotion that we don't want. I'm sure you're going to talk a lot about suicide. That's when people get so tired and they're like, "I can't do this anymore. Literally, I can't do this anymore." We want to fight that. Thank you for sharing that because we all go through it. If you're pouring out, sooner or later, it's going to hit you. It's a very delicate balance.

Based on what you said, how many times did Albert Einstein fail trying to figure out E = mc2? He didn't give up. He just said, "This one didn't work, so now we try again." That's so important that it's okay for leaders to fail. We are allowed to fail. For the longest time in my career, as a young leader, I thought failure was not an option. I'm not allowed to fail. For the first time, failing to the point where the bottom fell out, I realized I failed. That's okay because by failing I realized what I needed to fix. It couldn't have been more powerful than that.

Leadership: It's for leaders to fail. We are allowed to fail.

I had my family, my friends, and everyone supporting me, but when your entire passion, drive, and dedication to something completely goes out the window, you do get to a place of, "What do I do next? Where do I go from here?" That's where it's so important that you need to look at yourself and what happened because even if we want to blame others, we still have a part in it. It's a piece of accountability that we have to take grasp of that I don't think we always want to when we fail.

Also, you run and jump back into something else because it's a hot market. You don't take the time to realize because otherwise, you're going to repeat the cycle. It's about us and what's going on with us. Vikki, thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that. We did loneliness and weariness. The next thing you talked about was abandonment. It's not abandonment in a term of abandoning a pet or fear of abandonment that a lot of people deal with. I'm sure you know a lot about that in the field you work with.

My father would always tell me, "Tracy, I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than I do my success." He was talking about abandonment as being very hyper-focused. Abandoning the habits, the conversations, the time sucks. The habits that don't contribute to us becoming the most brilliant version of ourselves. Even if we think of carrying the weight of the world and being everybody's savior, is something you need to abandon, that savior complex. Can you share with us how you pruned away all the things? I'm sure when you work with people in rehab, you have to prune off a lot of self-doubt, "I can't do this," and people telling you this. How do you abandon the crap so you can stay highly focused on what's next?

What I realized is that in my last role, I was doing a lot of abandonment, but it was abandonment to my team. As I always have and always will be, I'm a transparent soul. I always have been. Truth is the best medicine. What happened was I lost my position as a clinical director due to an unhealthy and unsupportive environment. That's the gist of what I got.

I had to sit with them and think, "What does that even mean?" I thought I was supportive. I was making sure that the facility ran while we were waiting for our next executive director to come on board. I was making sure things were going smoothly, plans were going in place, data was being done, and budgets were being figured out. I was doing all these things but the number one thing I was abandoning was my team, the support that they needed, the care that they needed, and the time that they needed.

I thought in my mind I was providing those things but in reality, I wasn't taking the time to sit with them and say, "How are you doing today? What do you need help with? What can I do for you?" That's so important that when we start to abandon the needs that we have because of fear of failure, we then abandon everyone else who works beneath us. Always remember this quote. "It's not the clients that we need to take care of, it's the staff. If we take care of our staff or our team, they will take care of the rest." It's so important to remember that and I lost sight of it.

If we take care of our team, they will take care of the rest.

For me, it was imperative to realize that if I ever get into leadership again, I need to remember that my team has to come first. That budget can wait. That data report can wait. If my team comes to my door and says, "I need to talk to you. I need help with something," whatever I'm doing that is for administrative purposes at that moment can wait. I can't abandon my team because, without my team, I have no services to provide to the population we serve. That's the number one thing I took from abandonment in my role as a leader.

Again, you're not a leader if you don't have any followers. Followers are not clients, customers, and shareholders. It's the people in your professional home. That is the essence of all leadership theory and why people struggle with leadership because they think it's about doing things. It's about your immediate team. You take care of them. That's the whole reason you're getting paid for. Yes, budgets and all that other stuff, but your number one priority is them. Thank you for sharing and articulating that so beautifully.

It's also so important that when we're doing or creating job descriptions, those first five points are your five crucial job duties. As leaders, we get lost in the other 50 bullet points instead of remembering those first five. If I would've been more mindful and not abandoned my job description and taken on all these other things, I would've realized within the first five points to provide supervision and guidance to the clinical team.

We've all been there and done this. Even my friends who are generals, even my friends who are administrators, even my friends who are salespeople, this is something we deal with. Thank you for sharing that wisdom. That’s great for our audience to hear. Last of all, but certainly not least, vision. I'm excited to hear how you craft your vision. My father always told me that you don't have to be an Elon Musk or a Nostradamus. Vision is about seeing what needs to be done and doing it. It’s the Law of Attraction plus action. How do you hone your vision, Vikki?

My vision has always been about care and providing care to those around me. When I first started in the field, I started as a therapist. My care was focused on my clients. As I became a supervisor and a director, my care changed to my team who worked under me that I supervised. Also, as a director of rehab, my vision is focused on the care of a facility, a team, and all of that. I did lose that vision.

After meeting you, going to the women's conference, and reading your book, I was able to have that reignition of a vision because my flame had burnt out. When I decided to take on the venture of a new role, completely different. I went from working in substance use for seven years. I switched over to a chronic illness therapist, working with individuals with chronic illness and their mental health needs, and looking more at a mental health basis. I said, "We're going to hit every single type of disorder here."

Also then, the vision of my company that I decided to create that I was terrified to even consider starting. I didn't tell anyone that I was doing it because I was afraid of failure. I said, "No, this has to happen. I need to make this happen because this vision is so important." I have about 3 or 4 different visions within my company that I hope continue to grow so that more people can see that vision, that power of support, community, unity, and ending a stigma. There's such a hateful stigma toward mental health, substance use, and suicide. If we got rid of the stigma from it, more people would be open to the help that we all need so that at the end of the day, we all can be cared for and care for others.

I love that you talked about providing care. Kevin McCarthy did his book Tough Shift and he has this, on purpose, whole genre. He says, "Your purpose in life is a verb and a noun." Yours is providing care. Anything else that orients back up to that will always keep you down. As you grow your new thing, look at different apparel, speaking, and all this other stuff, writing a book I'm sure, all those things orient back to that because that's what keeps you grounded and keeps your identity and your singularity focused on that spark. Vikki, can you tell us a little bit about this Nine Eight Eight Designs company? We wrapped up the price of leadership and I want to thank you for that, but I want people to hear about what's next for you.

Leadership: Your purpose in life is a verb and a noun.

I'm still a therapist. I love to practice. I'm still doing that at Penn State as my full-time job. When I was looking at what I wanted to do for my self-care, because when I lost my last position, I said, "You're going to engage in more self-care. You're going to take care of yourself. You could have a stressful day at work talking to eight different patients, come home, and be completely emotionally drained. What are you going to do for yourself?" I had to find that because I had never had so much free time on my hands in my life. I had a Cricut that I purchased a year and a half ago. It was still sitting in the box that it shipped in. I hadn't even opened the box. I was like, "Let's give this a try." My sister-in-law helped me learn how to use it and things like that.

Tell our audience what Cricut is.

Cricut is a machine that creates decals and designs. You cut it out and you have to make the design whole and then you can put them on tumblers, shirts, hoodies, bags, everything. That's how people get decals for their cars on the back of their cars that say, "Dog mom" or "Cat mom." For me, I started out by doing the decals that I would throw on my own mug. I was like, "That came out weird," so I'll throw that on my own mug. One day I said, "I'm going to try doing shirts." I made two shirts, one for me and one for my mother-in-law. My significant other looked at me and he said, "You should start your own company." I said, "Honey, that's very sweet of you, but no." He's like, "No, really, those turned out beautiful. I love what you did with them."

Both of them were in regard to mental health and suicide prevention awareness. I sat more with it the more he talked about it because he is an entrepreneur, he has a couple of businesses of his own. I said, "I don't know." I thought more, long, and hard about it." I was like, "Let me make a couple of other shirts." I made some more shirts and they kept getting better and better. I made different designs focused on mental health awareness and suicide prevention awareness. I said, "All right, God, I see you. You're telling me that I need to do my own line of mental health and suicide prevention awareness apparel and merchandise, but you can't start a business without a name. You need a name before you go somewhere."

I was driving home from work one day. As we all know, our electronic devices like to listen to what we're talking about. On my Pandora, there was this advertisement that came on the commercial and it was about, "If someone you love is at risk of harming themselves or suicide or anything like that, call our hotline at 988." As I'm driving, I'm thinking, "Nine Eight Eight Design. Nine is an N, Eight, Eight, EED.” We all need to be here on this earth because we all have a purpose that God gave us. I'm not going to go with an LLC. We need to do company because the company we keep is so important to help us continue our story and not end our lives.

It all came together. I'm not going to lie, I had a flood of emotions and I started crying. I was like, "I hear you. Loud and clear, I can hear you." I was emotional. I came home and I told my partner, I was like, "I came up with a company name." He is like, "What?" I was like, "NEED Co. We need company. We are needed on this earth. NEED is Nine Eight Eight Design." He was like, "Get moving, get started. You got the name, now go with it." That's where it took off. There are a lot of crafters, designers, and vendors out there who make everything and anything like, "I make funny mom things on shirts and stuff."

I wanted mine to be specific. I wanted it to be powerful and impactful to society. For me, it was imperative to be about mental health. I knew at that moment that it was my passion and my vision of what my education is based on, but what my love, passion, and hobby are. Combining those two things together to make such a beautiful line of clothing and bags and tumblers. I have more ideas down the pipeline, but I'm slowly trickling things in to gain individuals to help me and the stigma of mental health and suicide prevention.

For our audience, we will have the website. We will have all of Vikki's contact information out there. You can get in touch with her and check out and support her new organization because it’s such a crisis right now. It always has been since the dawn of time. It's wonderful that you got the call and are responding to that call. It's so great to see you come through this. You're so strong. You're so resilient. Well done.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome. Vikki, anything else before we wrap up that you want to share with our audience on all things leadership?

I want to add that I do have Facebook. My NEED, Nine Eight Eight Design Company is on Facebook and Instagram. Finally, earlier this week, I launched my Etsy page. I'm going to be at a bunch of crashes in Dauphin County, York County, Lancaster County, Berks County, even going back to my hometown of Schuylkill County. My goal is to get the word out to everyone. Even if I only have $100 in sales that month, as long as people are liking and sharing my pages, my posts, and my pictures. It's just getting the word out about the stigma and ending that. That's what's more important to me than anything.

For me or any leader, no matter if you're a brand new leader in your early 30s or have been in leadership for 30 to 40 years, the number one thing that I've taken away over the past 5 months is it's okay to fail. Failure only leads to success. Just remember, if everybody else in your corner walks away, you still have God by your side because God is always greater than the highs and the lows.

Beautiful. Thank you, Vikki. I love what you said. Whether you make $100, I always remember the verse that I think Paul said, "One of us plants the seed, and one of us waters, but God causes it to grow." You're planting the seeds. I pray this show gets out to people and they share it and they can help you water this vision. May God grant you tremendous growth in this new calling of yours. Thank you again, Vikki.

Thank you everyone for tuning in. I appreciate it.

To our tremendous audience out there, we would be nothing without you. We are so thankful you tuned in. If you like this episode, if you would do us the honor of subscribing, maybe even a five-star review, that would be tremendous. Please make sure you share this with other people because as Charlie "Tremendous" Jones said, "You're going to be the same person five years from now that you are today, except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. Let's make them both tremendous." Thank you for paying the price of leadership and have a tremendous rest of your day. Bye-Bye.

Important Links

• SPARK

• Vikki Glogg

• Tough Shift

• Facebook - Nine Eight Eight Designs Co

• Instagram - NineEightEightDesignsCo

• Etsy - Nine Eight Eight Design

About Vicki Glogg

Vikki is a Licensed Therapist working at Penn State Health Hershey, but also a small business owner of Nine Eight Eight Designs Co (Need Co.). She has taken her love and passion for designing and making apparel and merchandise and combined it with her profession of mental health and suicide prevention awareness to sell products that help our community end the stigma!

Episode 183 - Gloria Riley - Leaders On Leadership

Leadership is a journey that shapes greatness from within. In this episode, we have Gloria Riley to discuss the depths of leadership. She explains the often-overlooked elements of loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and the critical component of vision that shapes true leadership. Explore the impact of burnout, the importance of self-awareness in overcoming feelings of abandonment, and the essence of finding clarity in one's vision and purpose. Gloria emphasizes the need for a pure heart and a servant leadership mentality in fulfilling these callings, drawing insights as well from her book, Imagine, Believe, and Prosper. Tune in now and learn how to become a true leader!

‐‐‐

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Gloria Riley - Leaders on Leadership

Welcome to another episode where we pull back the curtain on leadership and talk with leaders of all ages and stages about what it takes to truly pay the price of leadership. My guest is the one, the only, the tremendous, Gloria Riley.

‐‐‐

Gloria, welcome.

Thank you so much for having me on your show. I am very honored to be here.

I'm so excited. Let me tell the audience a little bit about Tremendous Gloria. You guys know, especially Gloria, that was my mother's name. All Glorias are extra super tremendous. Gloria is a phenomenal, dynamic, and inspirational business owner. She's a coach, a speaker, and an author. We're going to talk about her book at the end of the episode.

She is devoted to self-development and assisting others as she works to partner with the Creator. It is nice to meet a sister in Christ too. Her motto is, “Growth and development of people is the principle calling of leadership.” Amen. You're at the right place. We can't wait to hear what you say. Welcome again.

Thank you so much. Thank you for that warm introduction.

You're welcome. I always like to tell our audience where we connected. She called me on our business line and started sharing that she's a brand new coach, she has written books, and she was looking for other books she had heard about on our website to share with her clients. We started going through this. The more we talked and recommended books, we found out the more things we had in common. I said, “Tremendous Gloria, would you please be on my show?” My sister got right on there, and here we are. It's amazing. When you're open to it, you never know who you're going to connect with.

Of all the things that Tremendous Leadership is about, it is leadership. We are students of leadership. We know that leaders are readers. Hence the beautiful combination of books and being a lifelong learner. My father gave a speech called The Price of Leadership many years ago. It was probably his most requested speech. In it, he said that there are four things that you're going to have to be committed to if you're going to truly be a leader and not just a leader in name only.

The first of those topics is loneliness. We've all heard the term, “It's lonely at the top,” or, “Heavy is the head that wears the crown.” Can you unpack what loneliness has looked like for you in your leadership journey and perhaps some words of wisdom that you could share with our audience if they might be in a season of loneliness?

As a leader, as a person, you are going to experience loneliness. What we do with that loneliness is turn that negative aspect of loneliness into something positive. I started off in the insurance and financial services industry. When I started off, it was mostly males in the industry. I started off as a supervisor for Allstate Insurance Company. Inside the corporate office, there is a mixture of males and females. When I decided to go into the field as a sales agent, it was mostly males. You have the training, and then they leave you to yourself.

As a leader, as a person you are going to experience loneliness as what we do with that loneliness turns that negative aspect of loneliness into something positive.

I always felt it was lonely because I always had to reach out for additional training, additional help, or to say, “I'm experiencing this situation. What's the best way to go about conquering this situation?” Whereas I saw other individuals come into the industry and they buddied up right away. They weren't like me having to extend my arms for assistance and help. I realized if there is such a thing as loneliness, I could either learn how to cope with it or suffer from it.

Loneliness, to me, is not positive. It's a negative. I know that negative vibrations don't come from above. They don't come from the Creator. I learned early on that if I wanted to move the needle about anything in life, I had to always find a way or find a crack somewhere in the ceiling to get out of that lonely space. That's what I did.

I normally would go to someone older than me to share with them what I was going through. Once they understood me and I understood them, so we began to communicate, collaborate, and share, they felt more comfortable with me to share information. It was so I didn't feel like I was on a lonely island by myself. No man's an island to himself.

When you experience loneliness, don't stay in that situation. Write down different strategies to get out of that situation and turn it into something positive. It is something that everyone experiences. There's no way of escaping it. It happens for a reason because it allows us to self-reflect, “What can I do better? How did I get into this situation? Why am I in this situation? Have others experienced this as well? What is the solution?”

As a leader, you learn how to solve problems. This was your personal problem and you were able to come out of it. That means that if you run across someone who's experiencing the same loneliness, you're able to assist them. You learn from presets and examples. You're the example. You don't have to stay lonely. It's something that everyone is going to experience, but always know there is an answer to loneliness. You have to reach out.

You talked about the ownership of it. You talked about the things that are from above, which are the gifts of the Spirit, joy, hope, and love. Loneliness is a self-imposed emotion. You may be physically alone because you're not aware of what you're supposed to be doing, but then take action and say, “I don't have to stay like this.” I love that you said that because so many times, we sit there and get more isolated.

People can't read our minds. It's up to you to go ask someone. I love that you talked about how then, you have the empathy that you can probably see other people struggling and say, “I've been there.” You can pick them up and help them. You had the self-efficacy to ask somebody for help, but a lot of people still struggle with that. If you are out there in a space of this, ask somebody and reach out. People, if they don't know what you're going through, may assume that you've got it already figured out. That's fabulous. I love that. It is true. It does happen to everybody, even the most popular, wild, successful people. It's going to hit you sooner or later, so have that strategy. Thank you for that.

The next thing he talked about was weariness. A lot of times, Charles was a humorist but very used to dealing with people. He ran his insurance industry too. He would say, “Tracey, in life, you're going to find some people that do way more than they are expected and a lot of people that do way less.” It's tiring because if everybody did what they were supposed to do, we would not get so rundown all the time, but that's the way it is. How do you combat weariness so you can stay at your top form for your children, business, coaching, writing, and everything?

I have found weariness several times in my life. I'm going to reflect back to the most recent time that I experienced it. It was burnout. Having my own insurance agency, trying to wear all the hats, and going through the daily routines of running a business, I found myself very burnt out. It almost turned into a depression. You have to realize that you're human and you can only take on so much stress, pressure, and responsibility. Everybody needs to be rejuvenated. You need to sit back, examine, and reflect on what you're going through and maybe why this is happening to you.

You talked about loneliness being an emotion. Weariness is an emotion too. When you feel this weariness coming upon you, you have to think, “Is this positive or negative? Is this a negative vibration or a positive vibration?” Mine was a negative vibration. Even my countenance had changed. I didn't smile as much as I normally do. I didn't exercise as much as I normally did. It affected every aspect of my body. I did not like the way that I felt so I wanted to change that situation immediately. I wanted to be able to talk about, “I’m burnt out.”

A lot of times, we see people who are depressed or wary, or they’re not themselves and we brush it off. We’re like, “They're going through this. Nevermind them. I don't have time for this. Call me later.” It's a serious emotion to be in. It's a serious situation that you have. You are asking for help. Burnout, to me in my situation, was a signal that I was doing too much. I had to restructure my business, get the assistance and direction that I needed, and change that situation so I didn't feel burnt out as much

It is being able to realize, “It's okay to feel burnt out, but now that you've had your pity party, what's next? How are we going to get on top of this? How are we going to change this around and go back to being the same you? We know that's not a fruit of the Spirit. We're supposed to experience joy and happiness.” If we go through a moment in time when we're not 100% ourselves or we're not displaying all the fruits of the Spirit, think about how you got to that state and then start working on the correction.

There is always a solution to a problem. We have to recognize it and recognize that is not the state that our Creator intended us to stay in. If it happens, think about it, pray about it, and design a plan or a strategy. If you need help, reach out for help and move on. There's so much work in this world that His children, God's children, need to accomplish on this earth.

We were destined to accomplish specific tasks, each one of us. Mine is different from yours. In order to accomplish those tasks, we have to be at the right vibration. We have to have the right Spirit and the right attitude. Light attracts light, so we have to be able to attract that light. That has to be in the very best possible situation, attitude, character, mindset, and influence financially, spiritually, and emotionally that we can possibly be in to help someone else.

We have to have the right spirit and the right attitude because light attracts light.

I love it when you hit that burnout and the restructure. This is so crucial. I hope everybody read what she dropped. It comes from 1 of 2 sources, your burnout and your weariness. Either you don't have the means, which means there's an external deficiency where you need the who or you need help, or you said it's resources or direction. That's an intrinsic piece. That means you don't have the clarity or the singularity of your vision or focus.

Weariness comes from either intrinsically you are not exactly clear on your meaning and purpose for God's highest and best use of you or, number two, you know it but you don't have the tools or resources to get it. When you dial that in, then you get that relentless energy, that indwelling, or that infusing stuff. You're with the right people externally and internally. I'm glad you hit on that. Burnout originates from 1 of 2 sources and you hit on both of those well. Thank you.

We talked about loneliness and weariness. The next part that he talked about was abandonment. A lot of times, we hear about one of the fears, and it is the fear of abandonment. I don't know if you're a pet owner, but I'm in rescue, so abandonment has a very negative connotation. Charles was like, “I'm talking about abandoning what you like and want to think about in favor of what you ought and need to.”

If left to our own self-serving devices, I may not get out of bed and stay in my jammies all day, and think about nonsense. Abandonment is stopping the waste of time because your time is precious and life is fleeting. We only have a certain amount of moments. That was his focus, this hyper abandonment of all things for the best and the purest. Since you have a lot of different plates and a lot of different hats you wear, how do you abandon the things that are maybe good but not the great that Gloria needs to be focusing on?

That’s another good character there too. I love the recap that you did on weariness. When I was thinking about abandonment, I was thinking about self-awareness and understanding my purpose in life. A lot of times, if you look at abandonment, it can come from a lot of different sources. Initially, when I thought about this, I thought, “I could have felt abandoned when I was three and a half years old.” I was raised by my mother's oldest sister. I was separated from my mom and my family in South Carolina and moved to Seattle, Washington. I was raised by my aunt and her husband. I could have felt abandoned that no one loved me, but look at God. God put me in a family that nurtured me to be the woman that I am.

When I look at any type of abandonment or being forsaken, I see a light. I know it sounds supernatural, but I always see a light. At the early age of three, I knew that I was a child of God. I always saw the light that there was always something better for me, so I always wanted greater. I know there was better, but for some reason, deep down inside, I always reached for greater. I always wanted the greater.

When I experience some type of rejection or abandonment or there's no clarity, self-direction, or self-awareness, I meditate, practice yoga, and practice self-affirmations, the self-confidence formula. I love to read. Those types of things bring me back. They center me into who I am and why I am here on this earth. I understand my purpose.

When you're self-aware, you know that you’re destined for greatness and you know who you are. There is clarity. There's no reason to feel abandoned. You set your trajectory because you have completed your annual report, which is your annual report of what you are going to accomplish for the next twelve months. You have priorities, strategies, goals, and action steps. Every month, you go back to review, “What am I to accomplish in January?” Check that off. In February, you’re like, “What did I complete in January?” You don't have the time to feel abandoned. You have a blueprint. You have a track record.

You must understand why you were created. Once you realize why you were created and what you were created to do, then you minister to those individuals. It's a two-way street. My work is to partner with God. I'm His hands, feet, and mind on this earth. When I can go to bed at night knowing I've done all I was commissioned and appointed to do, then there is no room to feel abandoned. I am fulfilled by what I accomplished that day.

You remind me so much of Charles. I can't wait for you to meet him in Heaven because he, too, was abandoned by his mother at a very young age as well as his four brothers and sisters after him. He would always tell me, “I need to not try and reimagine the past. It is what it is.” In Christ, all that's gone. Joan Anderson, who was the interview before this, talked about the one thing that everybody has to understand in the beginning, and that's their origin. That means we're all creatures. What's our origin?

When you're a creature and you’re created or you evolved, you think that you're your own origin, which I don't understand how you could create yourself, but neither here nor there. You go back to the Creator. When you realize, “I am His and created for Him,” that gives you that grounding because He was abandoned too, but He was a new creature. Talk about life insurance. He even had a policy called the eternal life insurance policy. He'd sell you a whole term life, but then He'd sell you eternal life because that would pick up where the other stuff would let off. That was His thing, like you, “How can I feel abandoned when I've been claimed?”

I love that you talk about that rooting, that grounding, or that sense of origin that gives you the meaning and fulfillment on which then, you can have your blueprint. You stop sucking your thumb and thinking, “Woe is me.” Woe is everybody. Look at Joseph or the greats in the Bible that went through their abandonment. It is what it is, but we don't have to stay in that space. Thank you for that take on abandonment which I had not heard before.

That's great. I thought of it literally, but when you asked me the question, I thought about it in a different way. My mother did the best she could do. She felt she was making the best decision for me, her daughter. It was the best decision.

For my dad, it was too.  It’s one of those things that you have to recognize. You did talk about abandonment and that you abandoned that feeling of, “Nobody loves me.” You could have carried that. There are still people with healthy two-family houses that still carry stuff. It's like, “Stop. They did the best they could or they were completely demonic and evil. That's neither here nor there. Right now, this is where you are.”

That's what we're talking about. We all fail each other all the time. Even the best parents are still horrible parents because that's the nature of sin and the fall of man. You did talk about abandonment in the sense that could have been the grudge or the bone of contention that made you so angry that you never found the love of Christ and you were out of sorts your whole life and mad.

That is so true.

I love that you peeled that back. We could go on and on about it. It touched me because I remember Dad talking to me about that. I was like, “I can't imagine that.” He was like, “You have a choice. You can abandon those feelings of hostility and anger. You can stop looking at other kids and realizing, “They all came from two-family households,” or back then, a lot of them did, “Why not me?” It's a ridiculous question. The verse is always what man intended for evil, God intended for good. Whatever else you went through, you don't have to harbor that. Thank you so much

Lastly, vision. I would always screw up with a lot of visionary people. I'm like, “They must have a chip in their brain to let them see things. They are amazing, influential, godly, and ethical.” Although my dad was like, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it.” He had this very pragmatic tactical aspect to it. Strategic thinking is great, but without tactical planning and execution, it's esoteric. Can you share with us, especially as a coach, how you craft a vision for yourself or how you see a vision in our lives as a leader and some words of wisdom that you would give to us on that topic?

I see vision as your dad said that he sees something that needs to be done and he does it. I'll add this personal statement with you on how I see vision not all the time but for a majority of the time. I could be driving or I can be in the shower, or I can be walking my dog. I can be doing something completely unscheduled and a vision can come to me. I can see what I want to implement. I can see my next project or goal. When it happened, I wouldn't give it all the credit I needed to give it. I was thinking, “The wind is blowing. A vision that's coming to me is not significant.” As I started getting older, I realized it was a vision from above and it was very significant, so then I started implementing those visions.

Case in point, a few years ago, I had a vision to have a conference. In September 2023, I had a conference called the Wealth Legacy Retreat here in Atlanta. We talked about accumulating wealth and all the aspects of it, which were the legal part of it, the financial part of it, the health part of it, and the spiritual part of it, and brought it together. That was a vision that I received a few years ago. I worked on it until I was able to manifest it. When we are given the vision, then the task is to share that vision. You must be a good communicator to share that vision with others, and then as a collaborative body, you bring the vision to pass. I wanted to share that with you.

Leadership: The task is to share that vision. So, you must be a good communicator to share that Vision with others.

A lot of times, visions come to us when we're asleep. When we're asleep, the visions come, and then you wake up like, “Why did I think about that?” What I normally do is journal a lot. When I have a vision, I  journal it. It's day 1 or day 2. I have two journals. There's a writing journal and a gratitude journal. I have one journal that's dedicated to gratification or gratitude. I’d be like, “I'm grateful today that I'm on the show with Dr. Jones.”

Vision, I believe, is so critical because you see it in different arenas. This is going to sound quirky again, but on Christmas night, everybody went to bed to wake up the next morning. I had a dream and was quiet about it. I didn't share it with anybody. In the dream, it's death two times. I didn't share it with my spouse, my family members, or anyone.

I received a text message that someone in my family had passed. In the past, I've seen a silhouette of death. I have dreamt about death. This one was an audible vision. I've also seen the picturesque vision as well. When we talk about vision, to me, there's a spiritual side of vision and then, for lack of a better word, a marketplace for vision. Vision is given to those that the Creator can entrust that will see the vision through no matter the results. It is like, “If I trust you to do what I've asked you or called you to do, will you complete the vision?”

At the conference, one lady came up to me. She was crying when she said this to me. When she came up, her eyes weren't filled with water, but when she got there talking, it was, and mine was tearing down too. She says, “I want to thank you for completing the vision.” That meant so much to me. It was like someone had given me $1 million because I was faithful in completing the vision that God had given me. He gave it to me years ago. I fought with it. I had to make sure everything was right.

You have to be willing to receive the vision, implement the vision, and see it through. If God can trust you with a little, He can trust you with more. Sometimes, they're scary because then, you go back to the spiritual vision. Hearing death while you're sleeping two times is scary. I didn't share it with anyone. Seeing as you’re driving a car a silhouette of death is scary as well.

The Lord, and I believe this is in the word of God, will entrust those that He knows are His children of God. He will only give to those who have an intimate relationship that He can trust to give certain visions to. You don't have to be perfect, but the Lord wants to know that you have a pure heart. You're not accomplishing these visions so you can prosper. You are acting in a servant leadership role with a responsibility to accomplish those visions.

You don't have to be perfect. But the Lord wants to know that you have a pure heart and you're not you're not accomplishing these Visions just so you can prosper. You are acting in a servant leadership role.

I love that you hit on the basis of vision. A lot of people quote, “All things work together for good work,” but you're forgetting the other part. If you love God, then you're His child. A lot of people are like, “I love God.” I'm like, “You're not.” They are called according to his purpose. I love that you brought out that vision is not a true vision from above. We know there are a lot of demonic visions going on in the prince of the world unless God has authored it. If God hasn't authored this vision, He's not obligated to finish it. If He gives it to you and He knows that you are a willing soldier and will do the work as you did, there's going to be no stopping it.

I'm so glad you brought that up because everything's like, “It's an idea from God.” Are you prepared for it? I'm sure when you got that vision, it was because He knew, and He's omniscient so He already knows, that you had been preparing your whole life for this. It's not something that you sat up one day and said, “I feel like doing this.” It's not Willy-nilly. It’s perpetual. You were a baby and then you were an adolescent. You’re a young woman, and then you’re a warrior woman in Christ grounded in the financial industry and able to rightly divide the word of truth and the word of wealth. That's when it comes together.

Wonderfully said.

I love it. I love that you brought up what vision is because a lot of times, it’s like, “When does it come for me?” You're so right without our creator, we're integrators. We're executors. He already made everything that ever was and it's all His anyway. Let’s be good stewards of the talents we're given and let Him do the rest.  Thank you.

Thank you.

This is like C.S. Lewis stuff. I got to go back and chew on it a couple of times to get the good stuff out of it.

I love C.S. Lewis.

We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience as far as anything else leadership you'd like to share with them? Also, I would like you to share about your book too.

I know that regarding leadership, there are so many distractions vying for our time in terms of who's a leader, who's an influencer, or who's doing what. We need to stay focused on true leadership. True leadership doesn't ask for a pat on the back. We want to move a person from where they are to where we see they can be. We can see their journey and their destination before they can even see it.

True leadership is iron sharpening iron and helping that person get to their greatness. I did want to mention that about truth leadership and keeping your eye on the ball. What I mean is staying in tune with the spiritual awakening of our spiritual destiny. That will guide us to the type of leader and the type of leadership that we need to share and spread to the world.

Leadership: True leadership is iron sharpening iron.

Imagine, Believe & Prosper(R): A Guide To Financial Success

I am a second-time author. I haven't written as many books as you have, but I have written a book and it's on Amazon. It's called IMAGINE, BELIEVE, & PROSPER. The name came to me as a vision. I have trademarked the name because it means that much to me. That's my mantra. If you can imagine, you can see it. You can imagine it. You can believe it before you receive it. Your desires will come to pass and you will prosper. That's the name of the book. It's a guide to financial success. It's available on my website at GloriaRiley.com. It's also available on Amazon. If you would read it and write a review, I would appreciate it a lot. It's a guide that can help any and everybody.

There are a lot of changes coming into the financial services arena. We know that. There are a lot of changes coming to the banking system, cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, digital currency, housing market, life insurance, homeowners insurance, and mortgages. There are a lot of changes coming down the pike. God wants us to be great stewards of what He has given us.

Education is a continuous curriculum or a continuous journey that we need to always pursue and stay on top of. We need to continue being good stewards of what we have. Once we do that, then we're able to bless others. I hope you will pick up the book. It's not too late. You can send out a belated Christmas gift or share it with friends and leave a message for me on my website about what you thought of the book.

I love it.

I'm so excited about that. I'm a coach, an author, and a speaker, and I run an insurance agency. God will design you in such a way that you're able to fulfill everything that He has predestined you to do. I thank God that everything that I touch is intertwined with financial literacy. It is making sure that we understand the times that we're living in, that we are good stewards of our resources, and that we take care of the loved ones that we brought into this world and the loved ones that we communicate and connect with all the time. Iron sharpens iron.

A lot of people are having difficult times in this recession with the high economy. They need encouragement. Someone may not ever hear my voice, but thank you. Here, they will read what I have to say. Even the lost children are still children of God. They're lost but they're still created by God. They say, “A voice of a stranger they will not obey.” We need to share the good news of the gospel that God loves you. He will provide for you and will give you the resources that you need so that you can live a godly life.

It all starts with that. Otherwise, you could give everybody $1 billion and it would make things worse without that awareness or without knowing it. Bless your heart. Thank you. If you're looking for a coach, we want you to stay in touch with her. To our audience, this brings us to the end of another one of our tremendous, robust, rich, informative, and inspiring discussions. Thank you so much for tuning in.

If you like what you’ve read, please be sure and hit the subscribe button. Share it with a friend who may need to know how to pay the price of leadership and be encouraged that if they're going through loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision, they're doing it right. There are leaders like us that are here to put their arms around them. If you'd leave us the honor of a five-star review, that lets other people know the kind of caliber of content that you're reading. Please also connect with Tremendous Gloria. Thank you again so much for sharing with us. Such a blessing.

Thank you. It was an honor. I've enjoyed it so much. I love the work that you're doing. I commend you. May God continue to bless you. It's been a phenomenal time here with you. I've enjoyed it so much.

I look forward to maybe even doing a conference together. That would truly be tremendous, wouldn't it?

Yes, it would be.

Leadership: You're going to be the same person five years from now that you are today except for two things: the people you meet and the books you read.

To our audience out there, always remember you're going to be the same person five years from now except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read, so make sure they are both tremendous. Thanks so much for paying the price of leadership. Have a tremendous rest of your day. Bye.

Important Links

• Gloria Riley

• IMAGINE, BELIEVE, & PROSPER

• GloriaRiley.com

• https://www.Instagram.com/OfficialGloriaRiley/

About Gloria Riley

Gloria Riley is a phenomenal, dynamic, inspirational business owner, coach, speaker, and author. She is devoted to self-development and assisting others as she works to partner with the Creator. Her motto is "Growth and development of people is the principle calling of leadership".

Episode 182 - Joan Anderson - Leaders On Leadership

"Success is not measured by how many people serve you but by how many people you serve."

For Joan Anderson, that success was not served on a silver platter because it took her great efforts to deliver that success to herself. In this episode, Joan shares how her efforts blossomed into Good Flights, no matter what she faced as a leader. Putting her worldview in place allowed her to combat different problems and stay on course. As we move further into the conversation, Joan reveals the persons who made her stay through her vision. She also takes us into the value Good Flights provide towards animals. So, join Joan Anderson in this episode if you want inspiration to soar higher towards your journey.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Joan Anderson - Leaders On Leadership

I am here to welcome you to another Leaders on Leadership where we pull back the curtain on leadership and talk with leaders of all ages and all stages about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. I am tremendously excited to welcome my guest, the tremendous Joan Anderson. I want to tell you a little bit about Joan. Joan has been greatly blessed by being able to participate in the worlds of corporate IT and corporate management, and to serve overseas I'll tell you a little bit about that's where we connected.

She believes that one of life's greatest opportunities for deepest fulfillment is being able to serve others and positively impact their space. This yields deep joy for Joan, which you're going to know about and is her primary motivator. She reflects on Christ. She's a sister of ours and one of his models for success, “Success is not measured by how many people serve you, but by how many people you serve.” Joan, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Tracey. It’s such a blessing to be here and see you again.

To our readers out there, I'll always like to give people context. I met you in 2016. I went over to the Kosovo Leadership Academy, and that's where I met Joan. Joan was overseas teaching, and I went back several times since then. I’m always connected with Joan. In addition to loving to teach and serve the people in Kosovo and teach leadership, Joan also is huge into pet rescue. She's going to talk with us at the end about that. I would connect with Joan and bring pups back from the streets of Kosovo, and I would land in BWI and somebody would pick them up. We serve God and a lot of God's creatures together. Joan, I'm thrilled to have you here. It's been many years we've known each other and you're one of my heroes.

That's humbling to me. I don't know if you remember, but I'll share it with your readers. We first met getting on the bus from the hotel and Christina went to the ribbon-cutting ceremony at this school. I remember vividly getting on the bus and saying, “There's a mom and a handful of puppies in the back of the hotel. It's July. They have no food and water.” Tracey turned to me and said, “We're going after them when we get back. We're going to feed them and get them water,” then thus began our relationship.

That was wonderful. We went back there. We brought them some food and you can share what's going on. It's getting better, but there's still a long way to go, but one street dog at a time. That was a fabulous ribbon cutting. We'll talk a little bit about a KLA and the work there that you've done and what you're doing now. Joan even lived with me for a time a couple of years ago and helped me set up and get the show and the office. We keep crossing paths, and it's exciting. She's back stateside. I'm sure she'll tell you about what she's doing. When I thought about the show and all you've been through, I want to unpack my father's speech called The Price of Leadership, where he talked about the four things you're going to have to experience and pay if you are going to be a leader and not a leader in name only.

The first one he talked about is loneliness. We've all heard the phrase, “It's lonely at the top. Heavy is the head that wears the crown,” even Christ toward loneliness. Can you share with our readers a time in your life when you encountered loneliness, a season of it, and what words you would give to our readers out there perhaps if they are in a season of loneliness?

Thanks for sharing your father's writings. I learned much from him. This particular speech that he gave, reflects upon loneliness, the way he describes it, I remember being in Kosovo, being able to embrace the students, and being impacted by their uniqueness and how special they were. I wanted to do all that I could to bring home to them how valuable they are and even perhaps instill in them a belief that they can bring change to their country. One of the assignments that I was given was to teach a STEM course for a full year for the eighth to twelfth grades. I didn't know STEM. I was a Math person. We dug in and exploited together.

One of the comments or things that the students would always share with me is how embarrassed or frustrated they were with the state of the pollution in their country. They have water, air, and street garbage. That's everywhere. I started looking around and I read about Sweden's transformation. Stockholm, one of the major cities in Sweden, was given the Green City of the Year Award in the world. We started to study and I said, “Let's start looking into this. Let's study Sweden and see what was their transformation and how it transpired for the country.”

I started to get this idea in my head, “Wouldn't it be great if we did a multimedia presentation and we took it to Sweden and we gave the kids the opportunity to travel there and learn from the experts?” This was a crazy idea. That's where the loneliness part sets in. Not from a negative standpoint from anybody there, but I knew to pursue this path that I was going to be out there on my own trying to make this work.

Lo and behold, the kids set off and they worked on building this presentation. I did some research and I contacted a think tank in Sweden. I arranged a meeting with them in the summer. I flew over. The director was going to come. She had some other obligations where she couldn't come to the last minute, flew, met with them, and proposed the idea. The director of the think tank was moved to no end he said, “Please bring your students here and we'll give them a week of touring and education.” Long story short, in October of that year, we took fourteen students. They got a grand tour of all that Sweden had done to go from where they were to where they were back the time when we visited them. It was transformational not only for me but for the students too.

One of the leaders who had been in the transformation of Sweden for many years spent so much time with the students, talking to them, and taking them to different waste management facilities. The tour guide of the research facility said to me, “I've done over 100 of these and I've never seen him spend so much time with a tour group. Out of those 100, this group has been the most impressive that I've ever done.” She had done tour groups. To have a student tour group was very rare, but then to have that accolade was something else. What was neat was when we got there, they asked if our kids would do a presentation. We pulled it together. We pulled very late-night sessions and picked the students nominated for the team to present.

One presented at the school and one presented on Kosovo, and they nailed it. They did a fabulous job, then we started to get requests from other Sweden businesses for them to come and present their story. It was truly remarkable. The kids got home. Not long after that, that gentleman who had been in Sweden for 40 years emailed me. He said, “Here's something you need to go to.” It was a business or leadership seminar created in Macedonia by some leading entrepreneurs for the transformation of Macedonian and the neighboring countries.

That developed a relationship that blossomed later. She invited our students to Macedonia to attend seminars on entrepreneurship. From that, we took eight students to that one. One of the young men who was very bright said, “That was one of the best weekends of my life.” It all came because of this passion or this urging that God gave me, “No matter how lonely you are or nobody's standing beside you, you need to do this.” That initial trip to Sweden came out of my own pocket. I had to just go with it. That was the story of professional loneliness, stepping out there, and then the rewards that came from that.

I love that. Remember, if you are the first one doing this, by nature of the fact that you're the first one doing it, you're going to be the only one or alone. I know it's a different form of loneliness, but I love it. You're in a different culture with a different perspective of, as you said, clean water and a different language, yet you still, all the times, feel like, “I'm alone in many ways. Not just in concept,” but also you were not from this land. You're a sojourner over there but trying to help. I love that even if we're in circumstances where we are alone from how we look, speak, and where we come from, if it's laid on your heart, you got to go for it.

You followed it. You put your own sweat and wealth equity in there to make it happen, which is a big deal because a lot of people are like, “Nobody's going to fund it,” then you fund it. You may be the only bank account. A lot of times in entrepreneurship and ministry, we are self-funding. Thank you for sharing and your bravery in doing that. He talked about, as far as loneliness, is weariness. I know some of the things over there. You are working to make things better. It's a seed like a starfish. I say that one little starfish, but there's a gazillion starfish or dogs or kids out there. How do you stay strong? I know a lot about your health and how you take care of yourself, but how do you combat weariness?

The most pivotal season of my life was when I came to faith in Jesus. I was introduced to Christian apologetics. That has been the anchor for my life. One of the leaders who taught me so much said, “We all have four basic questions that we need to answer. They are origin, ‘How did we get here?’ Meaning, ‘What is my purpose?’ Morality, on what foundation do we determine right from wrong, and destiny, ‘Where are we going?’”

From that, if we answer those questions honestly, and then our answers are measured with integrity against the test for truth, we begin to shape a worldview from which provides a lens for us to view the world. Once I grasped and pursued that, all of these questions that your dad has presented and talked through, I kept coming back to this framework as being my solution and foundation for getting through.

Our answers are measured with integrity against the test for truth.

For weariness, very rarely my weary from the standpoint of discouragement or despair. We all deal with physical lonely or physical weariness because we get tired. Even that, when I'm pursuing my passion, the physical weariness side is much less than if I didn't have that drive. I can go a lot further. I switched from two different roles in my work. One was very much focused on my team. I was in a supervisory role.

I could work 12 to 15 hours and look at the clock and say, “Where did that go?” I'm helping solve problems and I'm helping people. I've found that gives me so much energy. I switched now to doing more of a staff-oriented role in reading and research, which has always been my passion. I found that I do get tired much more quickly than when I'm serving people. That's been enlightening to me. I like them both. When I'm serving people and meeting their needs, I can go a lot further. For me, weariness can be combated by having my worldview firmly in place and making sure I'm sticking to those principles.

Good Flights: Weariness can be combated by having your worldview firmly in place and ensuring you stick to those principles.

One is weary. Is it that cognitive work tires you more physically? Your brain is a muscle, too, or do you think it's more you're in your gifting more with serving others? I'm sure you're excellent at both, but where do you think the different level is weariness? That's the other thing. Is it just actual weariness because we're mere mortals, or is it your body telling you, “This is the weariness where you need to adjust something?” If you're assigned at work, you're assigned at work, but what do you think?

I have seen that with pure cognitive work, get there and log, you start your day and end where you end much more drained from a cognitive exercise, constantly reading manuals. My job is to create a teaching curriculum. I'm reading the product manuals and shaping it. It is more draining. I am older now, too. It's not like I'm fresh in college and I can do much more, but I could do twice as many more hours if I'm helping solve problems for my team than when I'm pure cognitive effort.

The mind is a muscle too.

I'm sure age factors in there too.

Loneliness and weariness. My father talked about abandonment. Typically, abandonment has a very negative connotation, fear of abandonment, or in the world of pet rescue like Joan and I are, that is the unforgivable sin, but that's not what he's talking about. When he talks about abandonment, what he means is pruning away what is not your highest and best calling. Stop doing what you like and want to do and favor what you ought and need to do. It's a tight, singular focus. I'm sure you get called many ways to serve. You're good in many ways. How do you stay on point?

I like how your father phrased the concept of abandonment. It comes back to a sharply focused worldview because that provides a filter for what we allow into our space and what we say no to, even though there's a flood of honorable efforts in which we can place our time. Once we understand our purpose and the framework that God has given to us, both generally as Christian people but also individually, those things are much more easily handled and addressed.

I love that honorable efforts and that filter. It's all good, but remember, God knows everything. Don't say, “If I don't do it, it nobody will.” That's not true. God already knows who's going to do it because he's already seen it to the end. It's good to let go of that because sometimes we beat ourselves up like, “If I don't do it,” trust me. You are not indispensable. Even the bad stuff, God reworks. I love that honorable efforts, honorable in whose eyes, it may be honorable, but is it your best? I love that sharply focused and then the filter can weed out the stuff that somebody else should be called to serve to do.

I like what your dad said that the power of a single book at the right time in a person's life is unlimited. Keeping my mind in the right books and the right content helps shape things and provide perspective so well. In addition when I go to bed or put my head on the pillow at night, I want to know that he would say, “Well done.” That's a driving factor. that helps filter out a lot of the items that I used to not be focused on that I'm not particularly called to. That helps a lot. I also learned that there are some things in life that give my worldview a kick. I used to teach Sunday school for kindergarteners and first graders. I would come out of there and I would be humbled. My world would've got a reshaping because kids and animals can set your course right back in gear. They're simple and humble. Their perspective is so clear. Those kinds of things helped me focus on the right things.

You brought up the thing about the books. I did hear a sermon and they talked about, “We're in this artificial construct of time that God put us in for now, but he is eternal and everything beyond. Once we're out of these suits, we're back into the eternal phase. There are pieces of us that are eternal.” They said, “Whenever you are in the word or reading a great book from somebody that has gone on to glory, you step out of the temporal world into eternity.”

That's why these books can transform you. I thought, “We can be in eternity ahead of time and get a jump by the more grateful.” That's such a great way to put it because that's where you do get transformed. You don't just learn more from this, but you lead this world and you get to start tasting glory ahead of time. I'm glad you brought that up because with abandonment, we need to stop and, “You're tired,” or, “You're working all day and researching. You need to read fiction or watch a silly show for a little.” Be very intentional about not being on a steady diet. It'll rot your mind like too many sweets rot your teeth and abandon the time where it's not good in the overall picture.

I'm glad you brought up that thing that he talked about. It says at the right time. Loneliness, abandonment, and then vision. I can remember growing up with these greats that I sat under. I'm like, “That's them. They're visionaries. I'm a doer.” Like you, I like fixing things. I like researching. My dad was like, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done. We can do that. We got a discerning eye, and then doing it.” He was very pragmatic about it. I'm like, “I get it. You have to be like Nostradamus or Elon Musk visionary.” Vision is going out there and being very strategic but then having a call to action and being very tactical. I've watched you go through many changes in your life and we're always calling each other up and saying, “What's the next chapter looking like?” How do you craft your vision?

I loved what your dad said and many aspects of it. He first said, “We can't pay the price of leadership without knowing where we're going and what we're doing. Perspective is vital.” He quoted scriptures in Proverbs 29:18, “Without vision, people perish.” I remember sharing that with some of the students in Kosovo. It's profound. In that, it says that it's a mandate. God wouldn't say that in that way if it wasn't something that we were supposed to pursue and follow. Plus, he gives the tools to pursue it. What I took away profoundly from your dad was he said, “Vision is being able to see things as they are.” What rang true to me was the definition of truth in Christian apologetics is reality as it is. Truth is what corresponds to reality.

That always made me think. What the Christian worldview provides most clearly is the profound way to see what we experience day in and day out as it is. It gives us an unusual vantage point. Your dad says he learned so much from great thinkers like Lincoln, Patrick Henry, and some other profound people. My go-to men are CS Lewis and GK Chesterton. They helped me stay true to my vision. Alister McGrath wrote a lot about CS Lewis in a biography. His comments on this concept of vision, if you don't mind, I'll read.

Good Flights: What the Christian worldview provides most clearly is the profound way to see what we experience day in and day out as it really is.

For Lewis, the Christian faith offers us a means of seeing things properly as they are, like your dad would say, “Despite their outward appearances, Christianity provides an intellectually compassionate and imaginatively satisfying way of seeing things and grasping their interconnectedness, even if we find it difficult to express in words. Lewis's affirmation of the reasonableness of the Christian faith rests on his own quite distinct way of seeing the rationality of the created order and its ultimate grounding in God. Using a powerful visual image, Lewis invites us to see God as both the ground of the rationality of the world and the one who enables us to grasp it.”

He says, and this is a popular quote of Lewis, “I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” He offers us a standpoint from which we may survey things and grasp intrinsic coherence. That is one of the tests for truth, too, in coherence. I keep two to my vision if I align myself that particular day by focusing on God's word, his truth, and his portrayal of reality as it is.

Thank you. For our readers out there, if you want to learn more about apologetics, which is Lewis is another one of my top five, he was the master of it. It is the way he would unpack the truth. I always say unpacking truth, but you called it the test for truth. I heard a sermon and it said, “Love, unless it's rooted in truth, is not love.” I love that you've hit on truth because a lot of people are always, “Love.” No. That is a poison love if it's not grounded or rooted in truth. If you tell somebody if you're a life coach or, “I can change your life,” if it's not rooted in the reality of what's going on, you're enabling, you're setting them up for failure, or you're setting them straight on the pathway to hell. You got to have truth always into it. I love that. That's what vision is. We got to be honest with ourselves and before God. We got to let him shine the light through us and see all the things that we don't want to see or can't see. I love that you pulled Lewis and Chesterton into it. I love those two.

They are profound thinkers. We've been blessed by God putting them on this Earth.

I even read one page of anything CS Lewis. One page takes me half an hour because I sit there and I'm like, “I can't wait to meet him. Out of all the people I'm excited to meet, he's in the top twenty. There are others before, but he is definitely a runner-up.”

Even a quote, I have a book on The Quotable Lewis and I sent you a picture of my cat sitting on top of the book keeping his thoughts.

Thank you so much for unpacking what these four concepts mean to you. Is there anything else from a leadership perspective? Could you bring us up to speed on where you are now? I'd like for our readers to read about what you're doing because you are still reaching out even though you're living stateside with impacting the lives of the street dogs in Kosovo.

I came back a few years ago now. I came back first because one of my students got a scholarship at a top school here, then I've stayed and I'm back in the corporate world, back in technical education. I'm enjoying that. I've also kept in touch with some special people over there. Do you remember I introduced you to my vet over there who's one of the leading vets in the country? We went out of her way to come with us and we looked at some property for him to build a state-of-the-art facility. He ended up building one in the city of Christiania, which is where his client base was. He's there, but the animal situation is very dire in there and Kosovo still. Tracey, you were one of the ones who said, “I can't go anymore. It hurts too much.”

Good Flights: The animal situation is very dire in Kosovo.

I've seen a lot of bad things. I've been to war. The dog thing is difficult.

All the readers should know that every time Tracey came, she took 1 or 2 dogs back with her. You were stranded in the airport once with one of the dogs.

Thank goodness it was Frankfurt. The Germans loved their hunds. I was like a rock star in the airport. If I had been in England, they liked their cats. In Germany, I had this beautiful shepherd mix and I'm like, “I know. This dog is cool.” Bella was her name. If you're going to get stranded with a dog, Frankfurt's a good airport to be at.

In fact, I brought two Kosovo dogs back here and they were oddly enough rescued by two German women who were working in Kosovo. They ended up at Lousim. Lousim is a fine young man over there. He's like us. He can't say no. He's got about 100 dogs that he has on his property and it's immaculate. He knows how to do it. He runs it, but it's never-ending. He is trying to build up to 200. Long story short, we formed an NGO in Kosovo and they wanted some strategic people on that. One is my vet and one is Lousim, and then a local man who is the director. He has built many animal facilities for me on my property. The goal is to try to influence the government and have a strategic operation from the government down to try to rid of the stray population of Kosovo. There is something you said when we were driving around in Kosovo one day, “America was like this once years ago, and this can be fixed.”

We treated animals like property and dirt, and street dogs too.

That stuck with me. I have this belief that similar to embarking on a trip to Sweden on a much smaller scale, we can impact. It takes the right people, somebody where it's not an impact to their budget to invest. We'd like to tactically get as many dogs and cats out of Kosovo until we can have a countrywide solution but build shelters there too. We have a building plan for a shelter on the property where I live.

Once it's seen how it can be done, we can replicate it. The goal would be to go out of business, not to have shelters, but to spay-neuter effectively. Money is given for spaying and neutering, but it doesn't go to the animals. One of my dogs that I brought home was tagged, but he wasn't neutered. You'll see pictures of female dogs with tags but they have a litter of puppies. The money is not used properly. It needs great oversight. Strategically, we'd like to rid the stripe population by having an effective program to influence the country. I’m trying to impact the suffering that's going on through different mechanisms.

Can people reach out to you if they're interested in supporting you?

I have my personal email address.

You talked about that. Are they called the Anatolian Shepherds?

Yes.

You have two of them.

I have a Shar.

Are they similar to the Anatolian Shepherds?

No, the Anatolians have shorter hair, but I did have one of those over there. It's amazing, but these are the Shar dogs and that's a shorter nickname for the Albanian name, but they are like a Great Pyrenees Newfoundland.

I was at a Christmas market. A lady had two Anatolian shepherds and I'm like, “I never knew anybody stateside.” She's like, “There's a lady that brought back these from overseas. Eleven dogs and she breeds them, but if you're interested in rescuing one, there's plenty of them.” I've never seen anybody stateside that even knew the breeder had one. it was fascinating.

Let Joan know because they have this transport going back and forth. Usually, it gets into Maryland or the DC area and picks the puppies up. It makes an impact. It teaches the youth, too, that these are God's creatures. They deserve love and compassion, too, because until you're taught that all things from the planet, everything on the planet to include the planet, need care and tending to by a man and woman, you don't intrinsically get that.

Animals are God's creatures, and they deserve love and compassion.

I've come across this. There have been two organizations that do flight rescues with dozens of animals. I've reached out to them. They've been stateside mostly, but they said, “We'll keep it as an option.” That would be a way to get through the winters particularly.

For anybody that travels overseas, before you go over, if you're going with anybody, ask them, “Is there a local vet or rescue?” You're going to show up early. The rescue pays the money. You would tell people, “I'm a pet mule. I'm not smuggling drugs, I'm bringing a pet.”

We call them flight volunteers. All the paperwork is done. You just show up.

I just take my dog if it is small enough to carry on. Otherwise, they'd transport it. If you're flying overseas and you want to add the blessing, they need an escort. Ask people over there, “Is there a local shelter or vet clinic that they show up?” You pick the animal up at the airport and get it through. That's another fabulous way to serve.

We're grateful for people like you, always taking animals back.

That was a lot of fun. You brought back great memories. Joan, I can't thank you enough. I look forward to connecting with you in person, especially now that you're stateside again.

I’m grateful to you, Tracey. Thank you for your time. It's been a blessing.

You are so welcome. To our leaders out there, remember. You're going to be the same person five years from now that you are now, except for two things, people you meet and the books you read. You got to meet the tremendous Joan Anderson. Please connect with her. If you like what you heard, please make sure you subscribe so you don't miss another episode. If you would do this in honor of the review, that help other people see what they need to read. We hope that you've been blessed with paying the price of leadership. I thank you all for paying the price of leadership. Joan, thank you again, and to our tremendous readers out there, have a tremendous rest of the day.

Important Links

• Joan Anderson

• The Quotable Lewis

About Joan Anderson

Joan has been greatly blessed by being able to participate in the worlds of corporate IT, and corporate management, to serve overseas. She believes that one of life's greatest opportunities for deepest fulfillment is in being able to serve others and perhaps positively impact their space. This indeed has yielded a deep joy for her and is a primary motivator for daily sustenance and motivation. Reflecting on Jesus and one of His models for success, someone once shared that "Success is not measured by how many people serve you but in how many people you serve." This is her motto.

Episode 181 - Darrin Gray - Leaders On Leadership

True leadership is found in the ordinary—a series of small, intentional acts that create an extraordinary impact. In today's episode, Darrin Gray discusses the concept of servant leadership. From loneliness and weariness to the crucial aspects of vision and abandonment, Darrin explores the layers of what it truly takes to lead. He highlights the need to stay true to values while dealing with the complexities of leadership in today's world. He discusses the intersection of spirituality and leadership, and how it can help find hope during difficult times. With his story, passion, and vision, Darrin encourages everyone to be part of something bigger. Tune in now!

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Darrin Gray - Leaders on Leadership

In this episode, I am so excited to introduce you to my new friend and brother in Christ, and my new acquaintance, Darrin Gray. Welcome.

It’s great to be with you.

Thank you. I connected with Tremendous Scott from somebody else on the military. He says, “That's what tremendous people do. The people you meet and books you read immediately connect with Darrin.” I sent him an email back. Darrin called me right away and got on my show within a week. Let me tell you a little bit about this tremendous individual you're going to learn from this episode. Darrin is an influencer, author, and he is a sports media producer who guides notable campaigns including the NFL-sanctioned SuperBowlBreakfast.com, The Bart Starr Award, and the live stream Indianapolis, HeGetsUs.com Campaign, which I know a lot of our readers who are avid football fans have seen a lot of those He Gets Us campaigns and more.

Darrin maintains an influential network of NFL players, coaches, and alumni. His expertise includes sponsorship, sports media, sports ministry, and mass mentoring fatherhood projects including All Pro Dad and co-authored The Jersey Effect: Beyond The World Championship, which is about Tony Dungy's Super Bowl team win. The show loves Tony Dungy.

Darrin, welcome. We are thankful for your time, especially coming up on Super Bowl season. I want to hear so much more about that. Let's get right into talking about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. The first price my father wrote this speech many years ago about what it takes to pay the price of leadership, he list four things. Firs is loneliness. We have all heard that statement. It's lonely at the top. Heavy is the head that wears the crown. We know Jesus experienced times of loneliness. Can you unpack for our readers what loneliness has looked like for you throughout the seasons of your life and, perhaps, if we have some readers out there that are in a season, maybe some words of instruction or exhortation that you can give to them?

First of all, thank you for having me and grafting me into a family that's willing to think about meaningful things like, “How shall we lead in the midst of a world that is scattered, tossed, media fragmentation, and all of the things that make our world little complicated now, and how can we bring truth in the midst of the chaos? How can we keep pace about what we're doing toward our calling but be at peace while we're doing it?”

Pace and peace sometimes seems too different things like their oxymoronics, but in my life, I try to practice both. I move out of pace in any given day. I'll have 40 to 50 interactions with people digitally and in-person, podcasts, and media, yet as I produce the NFL sanction programs, I want to make sure that I leave space for what I call the ministry of availability and make myself available for people. Sometimes people call this the ministry of presence. In other words, I'm willing to be present in your life, journey, and loneliness. Isn't an interesting that we're both a little less lonely after we do that?

It is sometimes lonely at the top of these projects when you don't have anyone else to look to aside from the Lord for the answers and you're constantly in discernment as it relates to what business moves we should make in order to advance the kingdom of God on Earth as it is in heaven. Most of my work from that He Gets Us campaign, Super Bowl Breakfast, the NBA All-Star breakfast, and the NCAA Wooden Keys To Life event, all of those are about guiding people closer to a relationship with Christ.

If we say that upfront and say, “You want to be a Jesus follower,” a lot of people on this show may be, “That's great.” In the world, there are lots of people that we call and designate spiritually open skeptics. In other words, they're skeptical about the divinity of who Jesus was and the virgin birth, all these things are a little quizzical to people who didn't grow up in the church, yet they're open. They have a God-sized hole. They know that they experience loneliness. They know they feel far from whatever a spiritual source sometimes called the higher power or something, but they know that if there isn't something more, then what is the purpose of all this anyway? Why are we even toiling, “Let's make a lot of money. Let's be merry and then we die.”

Most of America, all but 17%, are antithetical what Christ was and is, and that's okay. It’s not my job to do the saving, but it's my job to position who I am in Christ each and every day in the things that I do and the show I participate in, etc., so that people might be drawn a little closer to ask me, “Why do I care about God? Who am I?” I know those are the things that we're going to talk about as we consider what leadership is. We'll call it kingdom leadership as we think about what we're doing to draw people a little closer to Christ.

You called it the ministry of availability and I love that. My father always told me that too. When people say, “I'm lonely,” and I'm like, “Who are you interacting with?” “No one.” I'm like, “This could be an issue.” When you are pouring into others, Zig Ziglar said, “The best way to get what you want is to help enough other people get what you want.” Serving is the best gift of all because it doesn't diminish. You meet with all these people. Do you ever feel lonely? Do you ever walk in a season of that? I know you're busy and you're pouring, but how do you handle it?

Not that often. What I've done a good job of doing is finding places where I can be dialogical. What that means is I can dialogue through interaction with another. I can get filled up. I can learn about myself and I can also help them solve their deepest problems and needs. I am constantly seeking out and finding places that are beyond the superficiality of modern culture. Most people are, “What about the big game?” Confession from a sports ministry guy, I barely watch college football. I watch a little pro sports, but never baseball, very rarely NBA.

I do follow the NFL pretty closely, but I say all that to say that I try to leap over like who's winning and losing in the leagues and get deeper down into, “What shall we do together to make ourselves better today?” I don't experience a ton of loneliness. it is probably the opposite. Perhaps I'll land a plane here, something like sensory overload, being spread thin, which you addressed earlier because of the pace that I keep wanting to be of service and be helpful to others. For me, it's learning a lot of times to say, “No, I can't help another today because I need to focus on my own well-being, my own family, and the things that are most important to me.” I don't know that I have terrible loneliness the way some people do.

I love that you brought that out because sometimes people say, “You're always pouring out to people.” I go, “I know.” I love that you said that dialogical. When I'm pouring out and people are coming back to me, that feeds me. If that's your spiritual gifting, helping other people unpack truth or being available, pouring out into other people feeds people like us. If it's not your gifting zone, yes, it will deplete you and you'll be like, “I got to get away from it.”

It's interesting that sometimes entrepreneurs get, “You're doing too much.” I'm like, “Don't ever say that to somebody that's truly in their zone because that's their lifeblood.” That'd be like telling my father, “You can't go hug more people or only sleep four hours.” He did it because that was his life force. It's very interesting that you said that, but for a lot of people, you have to watch the loneliness because it hits. For us, ministering to others' loneliness will prevent our own loneliness. That's a beautiful way you said it.

I'm a strategic arranger, grounded and has deep devotion to Christ. In other words, in any given situation, I'll look at all the problems, giftedness, and connections. I'll begin to strategically arrange inside any given conversation like, “How can I bring my best self to this conversation?” As a dialogical person, which many of us are and perhaps you are as well, we begin to learn about ourselves. We begin to get more and more clarity on who we are, why we exist, what our purpose is, and we're in that zone. It's fulfilling that it's the flow state of human development.

That's why surround myself with people who are way smarter and gifted than I am, then I try to be there to soak it up and understand. I had one of those with my longest-term mentor. I spent an hour and a half with him. I do that every 3 or 4 weeks. What are all the things that I have the complexity of the things that I'm working on? It's not much that he'll solve my problems or with his labor, influence, finances, or expertise. That's the life model that I follow.

I'm not there so much for him to bring finance to my projects. I want him to bring his whole life so that he can bring not his labor like working. It's his expertise that I want. It's his ability to help almost serve as my individual board of directors to help me to stay on point so that I can do what matters most first, do the things that matter, keep a pace, and be at peace while I'm doing those things. It's a pretty good way to live a life, I suspect.

You talked about weariness. My father said, “In life, you're going to have some people that are always doing way more than what's required a lot less. Some do less.” Our bodies are all going back to the Earth from once we came. Our spirits live forever. Our souls do, but the body is the temple and we want to finish the race strong. Leadership has a very physical element, too, and you of all people being in sports, everything's in the spiritual world, but we still are walking around in the human form now. How do you combat weariness?

I get filled up by being with people. It's the exact opposite of my wifey, who is depleted by that. I say that to say that it's enlightened me to understand who people are and what it is that they need, but the way that I combat weariness in some ways is to surround myself and to talk to each day the people that I care about, the ones that get me and that understand this extraverted leader, highly passionate, and constantly loves to arrange things for the accomplishment of kingdom purpose. I do that with people.

There are many people like my wife who need to withdraw from people in order to solve for their weariness. I rest with her. She's my sounding board. She is my everything, my bride that I met when she was twelve years old at the Fontainebleau Hotel because I had ridden my bicycle from Anderson, Indiana at fifteen years of age to Miami Beach Florida. I met her there. That's a crazy story and it's all true.

When we began to date and then ultimately married many years ago with four children and all the things that fill us up, those are the things that are purposeful, meaningful, and valuable that they lie beyond the mundane, the family, and the things that all of your listeners are committed to like being a better father and mothers and more committed to their kids and their grandkids for the sake of seven generations from now, for the sake of people that can think about their children's children. When you begin to think like that, like, “How do I leave a legacy that is meaningful and true of my value?” that keeps me on point, helps me not to grow weary, and continue to pursue those things each and every day. How do you it? How do you not become weary?

Servant Leadership: When you begin to think, "How do I leave a legacy that is meaningful and true of my value?", it keeps you on point. It helps you not to grow weary and just to continue to pursue those things each and every day.

A lot of it is physicality. I reclaimed my health a few years ago. I talk extensively on the show with that. I dialed in my spiritual walk too. I got saved when I was young, but I didn't have a deep relationship with Christ. Realizing that the Holy Spirit was in there all along waiting to be my greatest advocate of all and as a leader realizing, “You can't get it right without the right people, the right partners, my Peter, James and John, my inner circle and my spouse.”

He's the exact opposite of me. He is my everything, and having that one to go to. It's the whole body. It's the mind, body, and soul, and reading great books. Whenever I feel like I'm going to suck my thumb or want to throw in the towel, I realize I haven't been in the word, good books, hanging out with tremendous people, and walking my dogs enough. I then get back on it and it happens.

We would be remiss if we didn't bring forward the scripture Matthew 11 about this, “Come to me all of you are weary and carry heavy burdens because I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you because I am humble and gentle at heart and you will find rest for your souls for my yoke is easy to bear and the burden I give you is light.” That's the New Living Translation. All of us have this sense that it's almost like we hear those words, “The burden is easy. Yoke is light,” and we go, “That's for other people. My burden is heavy. I've got to carry all this. I've got to do all the changing.”

For me, the principle from sport, from what I've learned from the world of sport that's very transferable back here is what we call AO1, Audience Of One. When you serve an audience of one, ultimately, the audience of one, God, is responsible for the results like, “I'm going to go play my hardest. I'm going to give it my all. I'm going to stay committed and be the best father I can be within the confines of the energy that God gives me that day and the appointments, passion, and all of that, but in reality, I'm not responsible for saving the world. I'm responsible for doing the work and letting the results fall into place.”

Tony Dungy says, “You don't win on emotion. You win on execution.” “What did you do with the gifts and abilities that I gave you?” How you use those is what I believe defines life, and not that I won't be emotional from time to time and live in that passion and emotion, but the way that we ultimately win, it's about sacrifice, significance, and things that lie beyond success. That's a little bit about my story.

The way that we ultimately win is about sacrifice, significance, about things that lie beyond success.

You said that with your wife, kids, and the generations, it lies beyond. Everybody thinks when they're younger, it's fortune and family. Probably with the sports people, it's winds and rings. We're talking eternity. When you touched on it, why I was feeling depleted and why most people fear weary is they don't understand their father. They don't know their father. You help people deal with the absence of an Earthly father. I was blessed with an unbelievable Earthly father, but I didn't know my heavenly father.

When you read Matthew 11, if you don't know God intimately, you hear those words, but you don't know it. I understood, “Why would I worry?” I worried before because I didn't understand the character of God, and until I understood the character of God and knew it beyond the shadow of doubt, I started realizing, “I'm basically reading the Bible, but I'm not even accepting it because I don't understand who God is.” That's where a lot of Christians falter because we don't understand. For one second, we could be like Paul and go see what is the beyond before we get to heaven.

When Paul was blinded by the radiance of Christ, he turns from his old ways like, “I killed Jews. I am opposed to all things Jewish,” and now he receives that indwelling and then continues to live the rest of his life to be the most prolific Christian author in the history of the world.

Like you said, the legacy is the most important thing that God will look to us. He's a jealous God. He'd much rather have us in heaven now because he loves us so much. All he wants to know is that every day down here, we are falling deeper in love with him. That's what I want on my report card when I get to heaven. Like you said, everybody has that hole, even the famous NFL supports people. I can't imagine that world, the pressures, and the higher up they get. Surely they look at it and say, “All this could be over in an instant.” We see it, but we don't have as much to lose. They truly see it, and to orient them into that is such a joy.

We are very privileged and sheltered from our physicality. In other words, our ankles, knee, hands, heads with a concussion, all of the head trauma, and chronic encephalitis that my peers in and around the NFL have to face, it's part of the job. They do have a wonderful abundance financially, most of them. We're not going to let them off the hook. They still need to do what it is that they need to do to claim a relationship with Christ to get their academic, athletic, social, and spiritual dimensions in line.

Do they have the playbook? There's the academic. Do they have a social? Are they grafted into the team? Do they know their role, when to speak, and when not to speak? Academic athletic got to be great. They got to have the physicality and then the spiritual dimensions. This is what Tony Dungy taught me years ago when I write in my book, The Jersey Effect, about this world championship season. It's the guys that are chasing after all four of those dimensions and want to get a little better each day in each of those four, those are the ones that are most well-adjusted.

There are many of them in and around the league. Certainly, we hear about some of the people who are having trouble, but that trouble is not a sign, whether it be mental or otherwise. It's a sign that they need somebody to come alongside them and be their guide. That's what I'm privileged to be able to do, and perhaps we're doing a little bit through this session with your readers that are all wrestling with, “How do I live a life of significance? How do I live a life that's less lonely and more committed to be the best version of myself?” Hopefully, if we can do that a little bit, we'll get a little better in the process too.

Servant Leadership: Trouble is a sign that people need somebody to come alongside them and be their guide.

No doubt you are on what Tony Dungey was talking about from what you shared. There was a book I read when I was a teenager my father gave me. We republished it. I recorded on an audiobook called I Dare You by William H. Danforth. He was the president of The Boys & Girls Club. He had youth camps. This is back after the Second World War. It's a four-square life, your checker, the physical, mental, and creative which is your followership, charismatic personality, and spiritual.

You must have all four areas to live a successful life, to live a solid little grounded life. Too many feet people focus on one. That's where they get that character malformation or the square collapses because of one of the legs. He hits all of them from posture to breathing air. It's old school, but old school is best. I love that you're you're still living that. That's the basics, the four tenets because we are body, spirit, mind, and soul. We better be taking care of all four of them. We talked about loneliness and weariness.

Charles talked about abandonment, not like in a fear of abandonment or if you're in pet rescue like me, abandoning an animal, but he says, “We need to abandon what we like to do and want to do in favor of what we ought to do and need to do.” He always told me, “I'm always surprised I'm even remotely successful because, at any given day, I do more to contribute to my failure than my success.”

I'm like, “You look pretty successful to me.” He's being very honest with himself and allowing the Lord to say, “Charles, this isn't the highest and best use of your time. You need to stop dodging this phone call. You need to stop kicking this can down the road. I've called you to do this. Make that call.” Abandonment is very much like hyper-focus or intentionality because nothing is guaranteed. Can you unpack that for us how you stay with a sense of urgency and a sense of focus?

“I ought to do it. I can do it, but will I do it. What will I do today? What shall I do that will make a measurable difference?” I keep a chart that people won't see. Each one of these represents a relationship that I'm connecting with. It’s about 50 people that I need to have a form of contact with. People might call it customer relationship management. I do use some of those tools, but from a practical sense, how will I connect with this person? What will I share with them that will guide them toward the outcomes that I'm seeking to create in the cases of the campaigns that I'm a steward of, the events that I produce, and then at a national and a local level, that gets this campaign?

How can I draw people close to that? How can they help support that with their labor, influence, finance, and expertise to bring their life to the project? As I think about it, I try to be in the will as much as I can. Sometimes that means “I will say no. This is out of scope. This doesn't fit me. As much as I like to help you, let me get you to somebody who might even be a better service and might be more uniquely equipped to handle so I can stay on task with the big things, the big rocks that I seek to move in any given week.” That's how I try to stay disciplined. My yes means yes when I commit to things as our time here.

It is important for our readers, writing the stuff down and plotting it out because otherwise, we get hit with a million things. I can't imagine how many things come your way. You were sharing with me a little bit earlier about what you did and some of the thoughts from that. Would you unpack some of that with our readers?

It was a tragic situation. I learned that my two sons, Evan and Prince, and a young homeless man that we brought into our lives in fourth grade and now a college graduate and gainfully employed young man at their childhood friend who slept in my home, I suspect and prepping for this eulogy. I suspect he slept in my home over 100 times. His name was Aiden. He's no longer alive.

Aiden was in a domestic violence incident. He was killed. It was tragic, but it wasn't just some other man out there. It wasn't a statistic far from me. It was like,“I've got this kid's number in my phone. He played on the high school football team that I was the chaplain of. I fed him. I took out my wallet. I cared for him in countless places.” When we were the closest is when I was helping to guide the national fatherhood movement All Pro Dad. We were doing mass mentoring projects all over America, leading stadium events, and resourcing countless fathers.

That's all relevant to this story. I had been with him and all these places, reaching, and, in many ways, being a father figure to this young man. He made some bad decisions and it led ultimately to his death. Because of that, the only hope we have is in Christ, yet in the midst of that, a lot of people are hurting and feeling far from God.

As my two sons, Prince and Evan, spoke at the funeral and then I tried to make sense of all of that in a broader eulogy, I found myself sad that it could come to this. This tragedy could impact my family and community. It's hard. I found myself reflecting on that on the Saturday after Thanksgiving. The days leading up to Thanksgiving were difficult. I called my own pastor and said, “I need to sit. I need to talk. I need to get clear on how it is that I address of this.”

It wasn't easy. It angers me that this could even happen in the world that we live in. There are a lot of people who are lonely, angry, depressed, far from God, and having relational challenges. Clearly, that was the case in this situation. Tragedies will befall us. How we respond to that tragedy defines the character of who we are, so trying to point people toward Jesus and invite people to know him and rest in him even when bad things happen to good people. That's the messy little truth of a sports minister speaking inside of a funeral.

Tragedies will befall us. How we respond to that tragedy really defines the character of who we are.

Sometimes I get hung up as Christians about, “It's bad. How could this happen? It's going to get worse.” I'd love that you talked about that. We can touch on it. We feel it. Christ grieved. He was a man of sorrows. Deal with it, but realize that this is the best we're going to have now, but this is the worst we're going to have now. We have to get people focused and oriented towards that because part of it is abandoning, “How could this happen in our community?” It can happen in any community.

You have to process it, as you did, but that's wonderful that you oriented that. That's not where our hope is. Our hope isn't in the communities. No matter how much we try and clean them up and we're here to do that, that won't happen until it's over. We did loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. The last thing is vision. I can remember I would sit as a kid and listen to people like Og Mandino, Zig Ziglar and and others. I'm like, “These guys are smart. They must have a chip in their brain that makes them these visionary types.”

I hear the Bible verse about, “Where there is no vision, the people perish,” and I'm like, “What is this thing? Are you born with that or whatever?” My dad's like, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done and doing it.” I'm like, “That's much more practical. I can get my teeth on that.” With the different groups that you're in or starting, how do you hone your vision, values, decide what to work with, and decide what's next for you in your life because I know you have so much more to pour out?

I’m going to be clear on who I am, what I stand for, and how I will communicate that in the small daily things that I do but also in the projects that I align myself with. This is all about trust. Those of us who are trustworthy people operating in a world where trust is hard to gain and easy to lose, how shall we conduct ourselves? What project shall we put forward in public ways? What is better kept private? What are the things that happen inside the confines of the locker room or the chapel services that will never hit the light of day ever?

They matter a whole lot because of the small things that make a big difference. Discern constantly which ones need to stay hyper-private and then which ones we can elevate into the nation's consciousness. He Gets Us Campaign is to say, “Let's all come back a little closer to Jesus now. How can we attend to those things that matter, that love, kindness, and caring for our neighbor even when it's uncomfortable to do so?” My vision is imperfect, but understand that it's set from a Biblical framework or a biblical worldview to the extent that I can and then stay focused on, “Who Jesus is in my life?”

I love that you talked about the small things, too, because vision have this BHAG, Big, Hairy, Audacious Goal. I remember when I was in the military, one of my favorite quotes is, “If you can't get them to salute when you tell them to salute or wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?”

I love that you are talking about vision is the small things. Your big vision is built on your little small things and for a lot of the entrepreneurs out there who are partnering or doing different things with other people. I love that you talked about projects that align with who you're going to align yourself with and to make sure that they are back to your core values and convictions because there are a lot of things that look good, but if they're one degree off, that's bad. That’s not going to end well.

One of the greatest coaches of all time in the NFL was Chuck Noll. Chuck Noll was the coach that took Tony Dungy under his wing and ultimately Tony became the defensive coordinator for, which Tony's higher calling was not so much to play pro football, which he did for four seasons. It was to coach. They want to now broadcast and influence the world through his win in some way and his gentleness of spirit and his ability to articulate things about football but point people toward Christ.

Chuck's quote, which I think we need to reflect upon more often in our society, is that essentially, extraordinary leaders, which he called champions, tremendous leaders and champions, he'd say, “Tremendous leaders aren't tremendous leaders because they do extraordinary things all the time.” They're tremendous because they're willing to do ordinary things better than anyone else. They're willing to understand what plays they're supposed to run, what their part in the play is, when you block, when you run, and when you pass.

I was in rookie training camp. I'm there and Chuck lays that down. Here I was, “This is Tony Dungy going on to do amazing things in the world.” He was telling me that I needed not to worry so much about the extraordinary but to focus on what my role in the ordinary was. You go, “That'll preach in my own life every single day how I prepare for meetings and how I get clear about what it is that I should bring forward in any given conversation to reflect the love of Christ, even when it's uncomfortable to do so.” That's what I'll do in the midst of this important conversation about leadership and what it takes to be a real champion.

You needed not worry so much about the extraordinary but to focus on what your role in the ordinary.

Thank you for sharing that quote. That is absolutely beautiful and biblical. We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Anything else that you would like to share with our readers on the topic of leadership that we haven't touched on yet?

For a number of years, I served as the President of a center for serving leadership. You hear the word servant leadership. In fact, the Greenleaf Center for Servant Leadership was founded in Indianapolis, which is the city that I live in. It is a unique vantage point for that system but myself and many other leaders because I stand on the shoulders of many. Dr. John Stahl-Wert was the leader that I worked with. He's out of Pittsburgh. John pioneered a simple book that was essentially parabolic in nature.

It was a modern-day parable about a busy dad who was an amazing leader and a consultant to the titans of commerce, but he left his son behind on the journey. The son was, “I need your help.” It's called The Serving Leader. It's wonderful. It's a tremendous read and influenced my life greatly. I found myself serving with John and being a proponent of this system, which was present tense. Servant leadership, servant becomes an adjective. In the case of serving, it's, “How do I serve you today so that you might be a little better?”

What we began to build upon is sometimes it takes an upside-down pyramid. It's not the achievement all the way up to some high success. It's turning that upside down and knowing that we can serve the many, but before we serve the many, we first have to serve the few. Who will we serve? The little things. Doctor John began teaching me as I learned from him about how to be a great decision-maker, how to upend that pyramid, and focus on those little things that would ultimately lead to this big kingdom vision of bringing people together, creating community, and then helping people find their place that they can believe and belong, place that they feel a place of belonging and they can believe in something beyond themselves.

In so doing, they can ultimately become the best version of themselves, which I hope is a Jesus follower. I hope to see them in heaven and be inside that mansion one day with all those that I've encountered, but the truth is I won't know. The tens of thousands of people, perhaps many times more that I've encountered in all of the media work that I've done, yet I stand undeterred. I'll continue to fight the good fight.

We are that cauldron called together to consider how we might get better or how we might put our feet to the fire a little bit, ask hard questions, and think about things of significance in this conversation. My hope is that this touches someone inside your network and ecosystem. They can learn more about me @DarrinGray2020. You can find me in Linkedin, Meta, Instagram and Facebook. If you want to follow along, join that journey. That helps me and ultimately allows me to encounter your readers in a digital world. If somebody wants to have a deeper conversation, the four things that drive my day-to-day business practice, which are the things that I have to do to put bread on the table and to do the things that matter, I produce three events that I helped to co-produce and do sponsorship development for. That's the Super Bowl breakfast.

You can learn more at SuperBowlBreakfast.com. If anybody's coming to the Super Bowl on a Saturday before the Super Bowl, the single greatest event for Christ of Super Bowl weekend, 1 of only 5 NFL-sanctioned events. There are hundreds of events that will be happening in Las Vegas in 2023, New Orleans in 2024, and San Francisco in 2025 because I'm always working three years out with the work that I do in and around the Super Bowl, but that NFL-sanctioned event is truly remarkable. The real good guys of the faith will come forward, Mike Singletary and Anthony Muños, the greatest line that of all time, Tony Dungy, and we'll give away the Bart Starr Award, which is a very significant award for character and leadership. We're blessed to do that. That's one thing. I need sponsors, ticket buyer, and participants at that program simply to find that. The next is called the NBA All-Star Breakfast. It’s AllStarBreakfast.com.

That happens the very following weekend in Indianapolis at the NBA All-Star Weekend where we do the exact same thing scaled for the NBA, and then a few weeks later, we do that at the NCAA all-star weekend. We call that one KeysToLife.us. If you google that, you'll find. It's literally a who's who of college coaches across America because one thing is true. Almost every college basketball coach in America goes to the NCAA Final Four weekend whether their teams are playing or not.

We do ministry in and around that space to make sure that their resourced properly so they can bring back into their own teams, the academic athletic social, and spiritual tools that they need to help their teams grow. All three of those, we are actively seeking sponsors that want to affiliate themselves with these amazing NFL sanctions and NBA and NCAA strategies. That's a big deal. That's something that your readers might be called to.

If they are, then please connect with me and I'd love to tell them more about that. My main thing is called the He Gets Us Campaign. I'll bet there's a significant number of your readers, about 70% of them, who have encountered that campaign either through our Super Bowl ads, Maui classic ads, and all the things that we're doing with our very large-scale campaign for Christ.

In fact, it's the most ambitious campaign for the sake of Christ in the history of the postmodern world. Think about that. I love what Billy Graham did at the time. He did it stadium by stadium. There was some newspaper advertising and it reach hundreds of thousands, perhaps, even millions of people. This particular campaign is reaching hundreds of millions of people. We're grateful to be able to push it forward and then in cities across America. Indianapolis, Memphis, Seattle, Kansas City, and Nashville were beginning to build out city-based strategies where local leaders can get involved and advisory teams and then help us with their labor, influence, finance, and expertise to help us build a network of churches so strong that they can receive what we call the explorers.

These are the spiritually open skeptics that encounter the communications campaigns that we draw into a digital conversation and then invite them to join us for prayer, church, or conversation. Every one of your readers can apply. Those who are Jesus followers and who meet some very basic criteria can apply to become a receiver of explorers and you can literally receive those folks in your town by ZIP code where you are because by the hundreds of thousands, they're coming to us each month because they're encountering this amazing campaign, HeGetsUs.com.

They come in the digital ecosystem, “I want to learn more about Jesus. I need to have a conversation,” all the way down to our death-to-life strategy, which is our suicidal ideation and prevention strategy. There are a lot of people that are hurting so much. They're thinking about taking their own life. They don't see the point of going on, so we connect them immediately. In less than two minutes, they're connected to a very specific strategy with a real human being who will communicate with them and try to talk them off of whatever ledge they're on.

The other ones that are less urgent, we route it to the local church, but when the urgency is high because folks are prone sometimes to bad decision-making when they're depressed, lonely, weary, upset, and all the things that we talked about, at the start of the meeting, some folks don't have the resilience to know what to do, but they're coming to the He Gets Us campaign in droves and then we're building a network that is strong and durable.

Thousands of local churches have already signed up. Every single one of your readers can get their church signed up for. It doesn't cost anything. We will scholarship all the churches that your readers represent. All they need to do is log on to HeGetsUsPartners.com. They're able to get their churches signed up and onboarded to receive the explorers. Those are the four things I care about. That's my job. That's how it is that I build the kingdom on Earth as it is in heaven and then find a way to find men and women who to want to give, connect, and ultimately be a part of the greatest story in the history of the world. That's Jesus's story.

Servant Leadership: Ultimately be a part of the greatest story in the history of the world, and that's Jesus' story.

That's quite the love story. I got to love a good love story. Thank you because a lot of my readers are at a place where, “How can I go onboard with stuff like that? How can I serve in my capacity?” Thank you for giving to identify specifically how we can connect with you, but how we can help you, brother? You've been such a tremendous resource for us and a tremendous resource to many. Thank you so much for everything that you have shared with us on what it takes to pay the price of leadership. I know you have greatly blessed our readers.

It's been my privilege to be with you. Thanks for the work you're doing to improve the lives of all those you encounter. Godbless you.

Readers, thank you so much for paying the price of leadership. Never forget, you'll be the same person that you were in five years than you are now except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. Make them both tremendous. If you like what you read, please be sure and hit the subscribe button. If you do us the honor of a five-star review, that would be beyond tremendous. Please share this with somebody out there who is looking for something or wants to grow in leadership, fellowship, and connect with tremendous people like Darren and the work that he's doing. To our tremendous tribe out there, thank you for paying the tremendous price of leadership. Have a wonderful rest of your week.

Important Links 

• Darrin Gray

• SuperBowlBreakfast.com

• HeGetsUs.com

• The Jersey Effect: Beyond The World Championship

• I Dare You

• The Serving Leader

• @DarrinGray2020 – Twitter

• Linkedin – Darrin Gray

• Instagram – Darrin Gray

• Facebook – Darrin Gray

• AllStarBreakfast.com

• KeysToLife.us

• HeGetsUsPartners.com

About Darrin Gray

Influencer, Author, and Sports Media Producer who guides notable campaigns including: the NFL-sanctioned SuperBowlBreakfast.com Bart Starr Award and Live Stream Indianapolis HeGetsUs.com Campaign and more.

Darrin maintains an influential network of NFL players, coaches, and alumni and his expertise includes sponsorship, sports media, sports ministry, mass-mentoring fatherhood projects including @AllProDad

Darrin co-authored The Jersey Effect Beyond the World Championship, about Tony Dungy’s Super Bowl team.

Episode 180 - Paget Keller Rhee - Leaders On Leadership

It’s not easy sitting at the top. As leaders, we must deal with many things to exact your vision and fight for your passion and purpose. Today, Paget Keller Rhee, the owner of six BeBalanced Centers, explains how to find your passion and surround yourself with people who remind you of your WHY. Her touching story with foster care reveals how she fought for her passion and purpose, but she learned when to step down from the battle. In this heartfelt conversation with Paget, she lightens the path of how self-care and mental health are important, and that is where BeBalanced Centers supports. Be inspired to climb to the top. Join Paget Keller Rhee in this inspiring episode today.

---

WATCH THE EPISODE HERE

Listen to the podcast here

Paget Keller Rhee - Leaders On Leadership

In this episode, I am very excited because my guest is the tremendous Paget Rhee. Paget, welcome.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to have this conversation. When we reconnected again, I was like, "Your energy is infectious. I need that."

Thank you, Paget. Right back at you. I want to tell our audience a little bit about you. Paget is the owner of six BeBalanced Centers. She is passionate about inspiring women to live their best lives at any age by understanding hormone balance and how it affects our physical and mental health.

We all need that support.

She's a South Central person like me. We connected at a women's conference where she was there representing what she's doing. We caught up after all these years of being entrepreneurs and working to do our calling. I thought, "I have to get her after hearing all the tremendous things she's doing and get her on this show." Paget, let's get right into it because I know you're going to unpack a lot of what you're doing and what your journey has been.

My father wrote a speech called The Price of Leadership decades ago. Leadership is always such a hot topic. In it, he talks about the four prices you're going to have to pay if you are going to be a truly authentic leader and not just a leader in title only. The first thing he talked about was loneliness. We have all heard that it's lonely at the top. Can you unpack for our audiences what loneliness has meant for you throughout your very career and maybe some advice you might give to our audiences if they're in a season of loneliness?

That is so interesting. He identified that so many years ago. Everybody sometimes exalts, "It must be so great to be in charge or be the leader." You get all the recognition but you also get a lot of other things. You have to be so intentional about surrounding yourself with people who can support you when you need but you also have to become very comfortable with being uncomfortable. That's important because it is sometimes lonely at the top.

I hate to use that but I've been in leadership. As I've been looking back on some things I'm dealing with in my situation, I have learned a few things or fortified my mind and spirit with some things that get me through these challenges but when I was much younger, it was hard. I founded a nonprofit in DC when I was much younger in 1994. I didn't expect that loneliness. I was so excited and passionate. I was ready to attack the world. It did hit me because I was alone.

Nobody had the vision that I had. Nobody had caught the vision that I had caught. Even my husband didn't know what to do with me because he was not in the same place. I was starting to explore my entrepreneurial leadership spirit that had grown through college and the different opportunities that came to me. When I was a child, my teachers used to say, "I hope she will be good at something." It wasn't that I always had this energy or confidence. These opportunities presented themselves.

One of the things that became apparent loneliness was back in 1992 when I went to work for the DC Department of Recreation. I was given an opportunity to run all of the recreational day camps throughout the city. I don't know if you would understand. This is a very dangerous neighborhood. I was a young White female from Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. I was the only Caucasian person on staff if I could. I was put in a very difficult situation being younger than most of the people who worked for me.

I learned so much about leadership, humility, building a team, and standing by the principles that I stood for. A lot of the people who worked under me were shocked by my expectations of them, which had not been the case in previous years. By the time we got through all of the time, we could celebrate together because they felt like they had accomplished something even though it wasn't how they had envisioned the leader of this organization being. They didn't envision a young White female coming in and trying to be in charge but I thought that we all came out with a common goal.

At the end of this period, we threw a huge community celebration throughout the city that recognized all of their hard work, which hadn't been done previously. I remember this sense of changing from me and them to, "We're together." For me, that was a life-changing moment where I felt like, "We can do hard things, bring different people together, and accomplish things together."

I felt lonely in those times. I was in neighborhoods I didn't recognize. I was pulled over by the police multiple times for being in that neighborhood because they thought I was buying drugs there. I had to keep telling them, "This is my office. I work here." That was probably the start of one of the loneliest periods and there have been many others. It is tough. You have to know your passion and find people who know your why and can remind you of that why when it gets to that tough time.

You should know your passion and find people who know your why and can remind you of that why when it gets to that tough time.

I love that you said you had caught the vision but not everybody, including your spouse or your former coworkers, caught it yet. That's such an important point for our audiences out there. It takes time. You may be lonely, and everybody has to go through a season of loneliness but if it lasts too long, then there might be a culture disconnect. It takes time for them to realize, "She is one of us. I can process where she's coming from because they don't know us. We don't know them." It is lonely. It's like making friends, "I don't have any friends. Now, I have friends because we got to know each other." I love that you said that. In the back of your mind, although you were young, did you think that eventually it would get to that? That's pretty evolved thinking as a young leader.

You're helping me unpack some of this. The idea that this could work happened in my household. My parents had adopted eight children. We had over 50-some foster kids in and out of my house. I always saw myself as not a leader of them but I wanted to expose them to new ideas that would give them the hope that they could do things differently in their lives than what they had experienced.

My parents adopted eight Vietnamese brothers and sisters. My family was always very mixed in cultures and circumstances. We didn't have a lot of money but the things that I took from that always helped me think that bringing people together is going to look strange at the beginning but wonderful in the end. When I got into that situation in DC, I knew this was going to work out and I knew they were going to love me once we figured it out. Maybe that was naive but they respected me.

It used to be that on rainy days, everybody would go home. On rainy days, we were all going to the offices to organize, prepare, plan, and work together. It wasn’t like, "Everybody is going home." It was a very different change in work culture as well for them but by the time they got done with it, they saw me there with them doing the same things with them. I do feel like it changed their perspective.

You said something important. I do agree that as leaders, we have to be prepared to allow people time to catch the vision but I also think we need to be prepared. It's such a fine balance to say when our vision isn't right. How do we judge that? There have been times when I've had to abort a mission where I was like, "I thought this was a path," but I had to be less emotional and more logical. I'm probably more emotional as you can see as I get into this. What you said is wise though. It's such a fine line. Where do you go? This path might not have been the right call and maybe I need to adjust it.

Leadership: We have to be prepared to allow people time to catch the vision.

I've done it too. You are going to see that the followers are 80% of the equation. If you get to a point where you realize, "I am not a good fit," that's very evolved as a leader to say, "I need to go someplace else." We come into these places and I've had that happen. Don't think you failed as a leader because it's a dance. If certain people are dancing to a different tune, you need to go like we expect them to leave if it's not a good fit. If there's not a value congruence or something like that, we need to go too.

That's why I tell people, "If the door is closed, kick it." I get it but you can only kick so far before you're going to break your legs off. You're meant to just knock on some doors, get the experience, and then go to another door. You were talking about foster care. No wonder you have such resilience as far as finding common ground and a way to identify. That's what true leadership is because unless they can identify with you, there's not going to be anybody in communication. I almost started crying. That's unbelievable that you got exposed to that.

I adopted my middle daughter from foster care. That's a story for later. You were talking about not kicking a door down. I had one of my best and worst experiences in DC after I left working for the Department of Recreation. I stepped down from that position. DC cut down 80% of its recreation budgets way back in the early 2000s, which created a major loss in the communities that we worked in, which were incredibly challenged communities.

There were no longer recreation centers for kids to go to and services for after school. I was passionate about finding ways to continue to provide those opportunities. First, I started volunteering at a homeless shelter. We created a program for teen homelessness. I worked with a young prostitute program in DC and spent all night in jail with young prostitutes. Those are some of my powerful memories of those opportunities.

My husband and I got married. We went to this church. My husband and I were taking turns choosing what church we would go to and trying them out as we were trying to find where we would fit. It was my husband's week to choose. He's like, "Here's one that says Lindberg Falk." I've never gone to a church with a woman pastor. This is back in 1994. I'm like, "We will try it."

We went to the church. It was a small Southern American Baptist-aligned church in the middle of Washington DC put exactly between the White House and the Capitol on Eight Street, and Eight Street at that point in time in '94 was very dangerous. There were lots of homelessness and drugs. It wasn't as it is in 2023 where it's like Disneyland. That was not like that then.

We went to the church. Afterward, the pastor invited us to lunch. My husband and I went with him and walked across the street to a little Chinese restaurant because it's right in Chinatown. I told him my vision, "My heart is to start a program for kids." I get emotional talking about it because I had this vision. I wanted to start a program that involved recreation, spiritual development, and education for kids in the community because of the loss of these recreational programs that I knew were out there.

He said to me, "Do you see this whole building?" At that time, we had a whole block-long building, four stories high. He said, "At one point in time, this building was a youth center in the '60s but we have lost funding. We don't have anyone to run it and nothing is going on." As I walked through this building, it was dilapidated. It had a full commercial kitchen and a whole dining room to seat 200 people and lots of things going on there. This is after a few conversations. He said, "We will give you that space and $5,000 of seed money. You see what you can do."

I took it. My office to start was a little broom closet. I had a desk and a phone. We didn't have computers at that point in time. I remember doing whatever I could. We grew that program, raising all of our funds. We built out a whole program called Urban Hands, which hosted mission teams from all over the country. It's another story to help them work in the city. I was able to grow fifteen sites across the city using the hands of mission teams. It grew very large.

During that time, I was in an old historic church that valued more that all of the chairs were lined up on Sunday morning for their Sunday school classes of 6 people rather than the 120 kids that I had there for a Christian concert the night before. It became difficult to continue to exact my vision there. At that point in time, across the street, they had built a very large building that housed a conservative political group. I'll not name it at this point. One day, a check arrived on my door from the president of that organization that said, "I see those kids coming in and out every day and you need to use this for your purposes." The church made me turn it around and give it back because they didn't approve of him.

Those kinds of things hurt my heart. I opened the doors and we had 120 kids within 6 days. Georgetown Law was sending volunteers. We were doing everything we could because I had to raise all the money to do everything. As it turned out in the end, we had about a $500,000 budget. What I learned from that experience is that where passion is, money will follow. I'm never worried about getting the money that I need if you're bringing passion to the project.

Where passion is, money will follow.

When you talked about knowing when to leave, that was probably one of the hardest decisions I ever made because we were successful. I was living in my purpose. We had won tons of awards in DC and were recognized in the Washington Post for all of that we were doing but I couldn't keep fighting that battle. Good things happened because when I stepped down, I found out I was pregnant with my second child.

I realized that having a two-year-old in the backseat of a car with gunshots outside of the car was probably not where I needed to be. The pastor who gave me that opportunity stepped down from the pastorate, started a separate nonprofit, and took it all over to a different place. It's all good. That is a separate nonprofit in DC. That was so hard to walk away from something that I loved.

That's going to resonate with a lot of people. I have a dear friend who called me and is stepping away from something that they did not want to do. If there's so much of a fight, we have to look at it. I can't control the outcome but all I can control is the processes, the vision, and what I am stewarding. Everything else is in God's hands. He already knew that church was going to do that to you at that date and he already had it planned for what's next.

We have to remember that as leaders. It is gut-wrenching but understand that it's going to happen once or twice. It's going to happen throughout your life. The more it happens, you realize, "That's not what I was hoping for but I know this is going to come back to me in a different form and in a more powerful way." As a leader, you get more comfortable with that.

I can't imagine at that young age having that but it's good to see too the nasty politics of infighting. We're all supposed to be in this together. When people call me brokenhearted, I'm like, "When did you ever think that people weren't self-oriented, selfish, and mean?" It's part of our nature. It's also good as a young leader to know that so you can be very balanced about the reality of humanity and what's out there and be prepared as a leader to have your heart broken but that's okay because God heals our heart and the vision takes us forward.

What I had to learn also from that situation and so many others is that I'm only responsible for showing up and being responsible for what I'm called to do. The results are in God's hands from my perspective.

People say, "Why did my husband do this?" That's between them and God. All you can do is do the best that you can do and keep moving forward. Thank you for unpacking that. You feel like you are in your home and then the season of loneliness comes again. You don't know. My friend called me and said, "I'm in a season of loneliness again where I have to go out." For the leaders out there, it happens. This is Paget and me retelling you to keep the faith because there's something unbelievable.

This is relevant. I walked away from that and stayed in touch with a lot of kids. They were teenagers. I still have relationships with a lot of the people that I worked with who were younger people at that point in time. I always have taught my mission teams that I've trained. I teach a poverty simulation course, helping people understand cycles of poverty and urban issues, and being aware that we're not that different and that we're all very similar in our experiences.

If I could share, sometimes you will get to know what you did, what you meant, and what that time you went through was worth later. It was a few years ago. As a leader, my job is to be one of the defensive linebackers where I'm giving people behind me the opportunity to live their passion as well. I do that with my staff at BeBalanced. I did that with several people in DC. There were young people who were coming a little younger than I was and saying, "I have this passion. This is what I want to do. I want to start this program. I want to do this or that."

One of those was a young gentleman from Howard University. He was supposed to become a lawyer. His mother is a judge and his father is an attorney. His purpose was to become a lawyer. He came to work in a volunteer capacity from us but had a real passion for the arts and kids in the community. He ended up wanting to start the first Christian go-go band club in DC. I don't know if you know what go-go is but go-go is a thing that's DC-related, which would be crazy if you know DC because it is dangerous. You don't want to ignite things but you also want to give people the opportunity to see how to enjoy the music that they enjoy in a safer and wholesome environment.

Leadership: Give people the opportunity to see how to enjoy a safer and more wholesome environment.

I acted like a linebacker and pushed away. I went to a lot of other African-American churches and said, "Do you want to partner with us on this?" They're like, "We don't want anything to do with it." As crazy as it might be, there was a young Christian go-go band that wanted to play. A lot of Howard University students came and led line dances and things. Everything was clean and fun but every night after 120 kids would leave on a Saturday night, I would breathe a sigh of relief that we had no issues and problems but it was challenging.

I could have walked away from that whole thing and said, "I don't want to have anything to do with that. It's too risky." Maybe that would have been the wiser thing to do but I didn't. It was successful. As it turned out, all the African-American churches started sending people. We were growing and people were loving what we were doing. We did it once a month. We ended all of that.

This gentleman turned out to marry one of the other girls who worked for us. He became a pastor. A few years ago, he received his church in Woodbridge, Virginia. I showed up to celebrate with him his opening Sunday. He wasn't expecting me. I saw his wife in the lobby and she took me to where they were praying in a circle in the sanctuary. I walked in. He embraced me and said to me, "She's the reason that I'm here." It was so honoring but what was bigger was he reached across to a very large African-American gentleman across the circle and said, "She's the reason you're here."

That gentleman came over to me and gave me the biggest bear hug. I still don't know who he is. I'm in shock. He says to me, "I was the young drummer in that go-go band that no one else would let play but you. You gave me that opportunity. I'm being ordained as a pastor in this church." That was so amazing that God would orchestrate. I know this isn't supposed to be a spiritual conversation. For me, that was so affirming to heal that wound of needing to walk away from something I felt so powerful about and to know that those seeds continued.

I would encourage anyone who is feeling that place, "Why did I have to leave this? What is next? Will what I did matter?" I've had multiple opportunities. I had a child reach out who's got a crisis in his life where his wife died unexpectedly. This was a seventeen-year-old who I felt was probably one of my first children before I had children. Those seeds were sown. Trust that what you did was the right thing and you are not responsible for the end game.

You said it's not supposed to be spiritual. Charles, my dad, always told me, "Ninety percent of growth is spiritual growth. If you don't lock in your spiritual foundation, forget it. You can build everything else up but your values, convictions, core, and what you're living for, none of it matters." I'm glad you went there because our audience knows exactly the importance of that.

The other 10% is probably the physical realm. I want to move on to the next one, weariness. My father would always say, "You get home. You're tired. There are people who should be doing what they're doing. They're not. You're picking up." As somebody who dealt with a chronic hormone imbalance where my adrenal gland was shot for about three years, I thought I was depressed. Our bodies are going back to dust. Our spirits are eternal but we still have to maintain this mortal coil. Can you talk to us about weariness, especially with the work you're doing? No matter how much you pray and all that stuff, we have to finish the race strong physically too. Unpack that for us.

Not to change from the spiritual, God has given us this body that works so well together. He never intended for us to run as we do. The Sabbath is not implemented where we're giving our bodies and our minds permission to rest. When I stepped away from the organization that I worked for in DC and moved back to Central Pennsylvania, my husband and I adopted our middle daughter from foster care. It's something I knew we were very passionate about. We had two biological children and adopted the middle one. I thought, "I worked with kids with guns, knives, and fights. I got this."

God has given us this body that works so well together, and he never intended for us to run like we do.

She took me down. She was seven at the time. I didn't understand all of her special needs as we got into it and grew. She took me to a place where physically, mentally, spiritually, and the whole thing, I didn't even myself anymore. Years ago, I was like, "I don't know who this person is." I was not sleeping. I was depressed, overweight, and all the things. I go to my doctor and say, "What's wrong?" My doctor says, "That's part of getting older. You need to relax."

Maybe the relaxing part of that was true but not explaining it to me in the way that resonated. I was like, "How am I going to relax? I have 3 kids and 2 jobs. I can't relax." I was getting up at 4:00 AM at the gym to try to do all the things. I felt terrible by myself. I felt like a failure in this realm of my world, "What is wrong with me?" I finally learned about this place called BeBalanced in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Somebody told me about it. I didn't even make an appointment. I just showed up. I was like, "I don't know what it is. I don't care what it is. I just need help."

I always said that what we did in DC was offer hope. Hope came in so many different packages like education, recreation, spiritual development, community resources, and all the things. I realize what we do at BeBalanced is offer hope. There are many women that come in a very vulnerable state as I was who don't understand that the most kind and loving thing they can do for everyone in their world, family, and kids who work for them or with them is to take care of them.

Many of us view that as selfish, "I shouldn't do that. I have a badge of honor because I've given everything that I have to everyone else." I love that but you're going to run out. You are a vessel. It's not never-ending or infinite. What I want to tell women is that BeBalanced changed my life. I lost 60 pounds in 3 months. That was not magic. That is by getting my body up and functioning. I have an amazing team. I have six centers of BeBalanced. I could not do what I do without building a team of women, empowering them, and giving them the resources to do what they do.

BeBalanced is about giving your body. God has given us a team of hormones that help with weight management, sleep, energy, depression, anxiety, stress, libido, hunger, and all the things. "I'm hungry. I'm full." Those are all hormones. We have a team inside of us. If we're not resourcing that team intentionally and not helping that team with what they need to be able to do their job, we are failing. A lot of women follow the traditional, "I'm going to work out harder and eat less."

That is not learning how to resource your body and this is a whole different episode about all of that. I learned all of that. A funny story is that I learned how to take care of myself differently. I say to mothers of daughters and mothers of sons, "Me learning to take care of myself differently also gave my daughter permission to draw boundaries around herself and realize that giving 100% of herself away to everyone around her probably is not a fair ask."

When we step back and say, "I'm going to go ahead and put this around myself," which is what I encourage our women to do in different capacities, it's okay. Everyone will still be supported. Everyone is still loved but saying, "I'm going to make this healthy meal. If you're not happy with what I'm making, I'm not making five meals. This is healthy. This is going to sustain your body. There's peanut butter and jelly over there if you need it," helps them to draw lines around themselves.

"I need twenty minutes of relaxation. I'm going to be headed to the room. When I come back, I will help with homework and do all of that but it's my time." We're always the ones that get put to the side, "The other emergencies are much more important." We are going to be an emergency soon if we don't deal with it. I was an emergency that was unable to deal with all that I had going on.

BeBalanced was something that empowered me. It also changed how my family eats. My son has always been an athlete. I learned through BeBalanced how to source an athlete and give him healthy foods. My son has cooked his food since he was in tenth grade. He is a senior at the Naval Academy. Your husband is from the Naval Academy. We have that. He's learned how to take care of his body as an athlete. He's played lacrosse at the high national level with Under Armour and the Naval Academy.

BeBalanced taught me things I didn't know about nutrition and how to source your body effectively with good supplementation, minerals, and vitamins because we have to be intentional. God has given us all that. He's made our bodies to need it and receive it. Being intentional about those things is important. Gummies are not intentional. It drives me nuts when women tell me they're taking a gummy vitamin. I'm like, "You're a big girl now." That's a whole other conversation as well.

How I got to BeBalanced though is that BeBalanced changed my life but there was only one BeBalanced in the country. At that time, my dad, my brother, and I had worked in a business together. My dad and brother owned it. It was about building log cabins all over the world, which is something a whole other story that I learned a lot of leadership from. I had to work in an all man's world. I was the only woman who designed and learned from going from working at a nonprofit in DC to learning how to manage building codes, snow loads, wind loads, and R-values. All of that was a whole change for me.

I was working in that business with my family when I came back to Central Pennsylvania. That time was 2010 when the housing bubble crumbled. We lost the business. We knew a business broker in Lancaster who was helping to franchise BeBalanced. I did this program. I didn't tell anyone I was doing it. I didn't tell my family because I was like, "Can it work? Can I do it?" I didn't know. At the same time that I was doing BeBalanced, this business broker went to my brother and my father who he knew, and said, "There's this new thing that they're franchising. You should buy it and Paget should run it."

Talk about providence. I told my parents I lost 25 pounds in the first month. They were like, "Isn't this a thing that we were introduced to?" It all came together. Long story short, we opened the first BeBalanced location and then I have six. My leadership at BeBalanced has changed from working with clients and empowering individual clients and women to empowering my team to do what they love.

Weariness was very real. I can't change the stress that's coming at me, none of us can, but what I can do is be intentional about fortifying my mind, body, and adrenals to manage it. Understand that that's a real thing. You can't expect water out of a stone. You have to infuse what your body needs to be able to give at that level. Many people say to me, "How do you run a company that has 7 Airbnbs and 6 BeBalanced, have kids, and do all these things? You must never sleep." I sleep well because I created a team internally that's doing what I need behind the scenes.

That reminds me of that Lena Horn quote, "It's not the load that breaks you down. It's the way you carry it." The one Facebook meme is we all have the same 24 hours a day as Beyoncé. How does she do it? It's because she has a team. I love that you said, "Resource your body." You hit on a very wonderful point about leadership as you're growing a business. It's no longer about you working in the business in the details but you're working on your team because that's where entrepreneurs get so burned out.

"I'm still doing everything," but you're not supposed to. Even if you're working at Walmart and you're a manager, you're no longer supposed to be doing the day-to-day stuff. You're supposed to be developing the people underneath you. That's awesome that you did that. I don't care how healthy you are or how well you're eating. You will still burn out because we're still limited physically in what we can take on.

I love that they feel good about what they're doing, that they feel empowered, and that they feel successful because that's what brings me joy. If I micromanage them and don't allow them to live into their spirit, it's not benefiting me in any way, shape, or form.

That's not leadership. Especially as an entrepreneur, you need people in line with the vision. I love that. Let's talk about abandonment. We're animal lovers. Abandonment has a very negative connotation. Fear of abandonment as a woman is a bad thing. My dad would always tell me this because I was like, "How did you get so successful?" He's like, "I have no idea. I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success."

He explained to me abandonment and how abandonment is to stop doing what you like and want to do in favor of what you ought and need to do. It's being very focused on what is going to get you forward, whether it's the people in your life, habits, or even what you're watching on TV in your spare time and what you're putting in your mind. With everything you have going on, how do you stay tightly bound or focused so you can pour your energies where they need to be?

I have to think about it because I've gotten pretty proficient at naturally being able to sift through priorities and what matters. It was so funny because I had this conversation with a staff person who is younger and was asking. For her, one of the things that holds a lot of mental energy is worry, "What about this or that? What are we going to do with this?" In my mind, the way I deal with it is I always have a plan B, C, and D for whatever could potentially happen.

Leadership: One of the things that holds a lot of mental energy is worrying.

I said to her, "I have learned, for example, with worry, not to allow that to enter energy in me and abandon worry because if I know that I can deal with the worst-case scenario in any particular situation that I'm thinking about, then I take it off the table and not give any mental energy to it. If that happens, anything from here to the worst-case scenario, I got it."

I've gotten good at being able to weed through it but I've also been able to give myself permission. We talk about what's on TV. Sometimes my husband says, "I can't believe you watch this. This is mindless." Sometimes I give myself permission to watch mindless things too because so many times, I feel, "I should be listening to this podcast or reading this book." Sometimes I have to give myself permission to abandon productivity for a minute and say, "Enjoy this for a minute."

Something else that came to me that is relevant is I have a lot of guilt sometimes when I should be working harder. For example, I took two weeks. I love going to Columbia. My brother lives in Columbia. We spend a lot of time in South America and Columbia. I was down there for two weeks in the summer. One day, I said to my brother, "I feel guilty. I should be going back to work."

He said to me, "That's the most ridiculous thing because you are feeling guilty for creating the life you wanted and living the life you created." I've also abandoned guilt in that too. Getting older, abandoning some of these things, and not apologizing for them, for me, became so important, "Why am I feeling guilty about this? Everything is fine. Everyone is doing what they need to do and I'm living the life I created." It was a real awakening for me.

I love that you brought up guilt because somebody called me on something once and said, "Guilt is a self-imposed emotion." It's up to me to stop putting that on myself. It's guilt, shame, anger, and all that. The fruits of the spirit are God-given but all the bad stuff is self-imposed like frustration and anger. I opt out of it. I'm so glad you said that. Remember, it all starts in the mind. This is where everything programs this beautiful thing that God gave us. We have the mind of Christ, and then it goes to our emotions, hands, behaviors, and habits.

Leadership: We have the mind of Christ. It goes to your emotions, hands, behaviors, and your habits.

I love that you said that because that's where everything begins and starts. You tell your mind, "I'm going to mute that." It always pops in but we're all going to be tempted. I was reading the book The Potential Principle by Edwin Louis Cole. It's one of my favorite books. It's an old-timey book. He says, "The only two ways the devil can attack children, brothers, and sisters in Christ are temptation and accusation." You have to be on guard for temptation and flee from that but an accusation is, "Shouldn't you be doing this?" It's like, "I'm going to mute that." That's negative self-talk or stinking thinking. We do it to ourselves way more than the world. Everybody is like, "The world is so awful." I'm like, "Do you know what's more awful?"

When we talk about hormone balance, we are doing life coaching and health coaching through this process. One day, I was so frustrated after meeting with multiple women. I did a video, put it out there, and felt like so many of us say the things to ourselves that we would not say to a stranger on the street and tell ourselves, "I never succeeded in that. I can never do that. I'm not good enough at that." I can't take it. I need women to start shifting that. "Maybe I can't do it now but I haven't learned it yet." We're still always in process. I was so sad one day feeling like so many of us talk to ourselves like we wouldn't talk to our worst enemy. It's sad.

We deny the blessing. Somebody will come from a doctor and be like, "The test came back good." They will say to me, "I still might have this." I'm like, "You killed the blessing. Stop. You got good words." Don't speak that stuff. Abandon that nonsense. What does the Bible say? Not one iota of worry can add one hour to your life. Stop it. We're post-COVID. What was more horrible than COVID? It's that negative and depressive fear and anxiety, which kills more than anything else in the world.

That's the biggest thing we need to abandon. Thank you for that. There's loneliness, awareness, and abandonment. You have unpacked the vision already. Vision is so important to you and you are so good at it. Share with us. How do you hone your vision? A lot of people are like, "I'm passionate about stuff," but passion is different than vision. Can you explain what vision means to you?

Thank you because sometimes I would say I'm not very good at that. I hope you take it anyway. I don't know if this is a conventional answer. One thing I'm good at is not being intimidated by people who are better than me and surrounding myself with an amazing team of women who have a similar passion, which helps us create a great vision. I see too many women feel threatened by their staff, "I need to keep her down here." I'll tell my clients, "You're lucky if you get to work with them. They're so much better than I am."

Surrounding myself with an amazing team of women with similar passion helps us create a great vision.

My vision comes from inspiration from my team with their ideas. All of it comes together like a puzzle to create the vision. I don't think that I'm the only one. I don't have the only vision. I'm surrounding myself with amazing women who have passion, words, ideas, and resources. That's how the vision grows. Maybe I'm not that good at vision but I'm good at surrounding myself with great people and resourcing them to a shared purpose.

A vision is shared. If it's not shared, it's just your dream. Leadership is all about everybody looking through the same lens. Sometimes it's like, "Leader, you pick the vision and then everybody else gets to see it." Your approach is the real approach. You put that beacon out and vibe with your tribe who coalesces around that. I can't put the vision in anybody. You already have your vision, passion, and intrinsic gifting from your skillset and how you grew up with the things that happened to you when you were younger but if you radiate that beacon, that's enough for the right people. That was a discerning unpacking of vision. Thank you.

Thank you. It has been fun.

We did loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Is there anything else that we haven't hit on that you would like to share with our tremendous leaders out there who are living the life, fighting the battles, and enjoying the triumphs and the heartaches too?

One thing that I've recognized is I am such a believer in servant leadership. When I was in DC, I would be down cooking meals, cleaning things, and doing whatever my staff was doing so that they could see that I was not asking them to do anything I was not willing to do. I feel that way. I've grown a little bit in a different capacity so I don't always have that ability. I am in the trenches. I'm taking appointments. There are certain times when I am taking client appointments if we're short-staffed. That's always good for me to stay in the know to understand what the staff is going through so that when I give feedback, they know that it's from a place of, "I've been there and done that." That's helpful.

I was in one of the centers. I gave two client appointments and came out with success on both of them. I was like, "What's so hard?" They laughed at me. I was joking with them. It's important though that I've had to move from servant leadership and being in the trenches with everyone to empowering those to do it. There's a book CEOs Are Stupid. We as CEOs have to learn how to know enough to be dangerous but not take on every minute detail of what our staff is doing. I have great staff who know how to do what they need to do. If I needed to do it, I would figure it out. I would probably be slower than them because I'm not doing it every day.

Leadership: As CEOs, we have to learn how to know enough to be dangerous but not take on every new detail of what our staff does.

We were having a leadership conference. One of my staff said to me, "Is that why you always ask me to do that?" I ask you to do it because number one, you could probably do it faster than I could. I'm traveling between centers and you're in front of a computer. I also don't have to know how to do everything because you all know how to do everything.

Too many leaders that I see use up too much mental capacity knowing the details of everything. I know who to call when I need certain things. I have watched and learned which of my staff are good at certain things and thrive in them, and then I ask them to do those things. I'm trying to be intentional in my team. I share my team between Dallas and Pennsylvania. Sometimes the Pennsylvania team is doing things for Dallas. We work as one organization but I know somebody loves making graphics and designs whereas someone else can do it but is drained by it. That's where I'm going.

My leadership has evolved. I'm old enough to say that because I'm recognizing how old I am as my staff is getting younger. I don't have to be in the trenches every day anymore. I just have to know that I've got great people around me who know how to pull it off when needed and they feel good about that. I praise them and catch them doing great things all the time.

Even when I'm in Dallas, people say, "How do you manage a Dallas team from Pennsylvania?" They always say, "You're always watching. I don't know how you always see." I always catch them doing great things and tell them right away that I saw it. That's how I make them feel like I'm not forever away because I care about what's happening to them, whether I'm onsite or not.

My job is to make their job easier. We have this saying among our teams that we have a team that has to be willing to tell me something I don't want to know and receive something they don't want to know. A lot of times, after we finish meetings or conversations, we will say, "Tell me something I don't want to know." I, as a leader, have to be willing and able to hear that and they, as my team, have to be willing to receive it.

That is powerful stuff. Brené Brown says that unclear is unkind. Clear is kind. We dance around stuff. I love that you talked about the evolution from servant leadership as you get older because you do realize it's about being in the trenches but then we are beyond that, not that we're better than that. There are other people who have to be at that level of servant leadership and we have to be up at this. That's part of the evolution of a leader and bringing your team up because they should be able to step into your shoes so you can go up to this transformative or transformational leadership, which is the next level up from it. What is the best way for our audiences to get ahold of you? I know they're going to want to get in touch with you.

BeBalancedCenters.com is our website. I have multiple locations in Harrisburg, Camp Hill, and York. If you're in Dallas, Frisco, and McKinney are good places to go as well. My information will be there. It's Paget.Rhee@BeBalancedCenters.com. I would love to hear from anyone. I always love to hear what people are doing, their successes, and challenges, and celebrate with them.

Speaking of vision, are there going to be more than six BeBalanced? What's on 2024 and 2025?

There are always those potentials. For me, it's about giving women the opportunity to change their lives and support their quality of life moving forward as they age. I did this when I was 45. I went through early menopause because of stress and all the things. Many women don't even know that these things are possible to be addressed naturally and strategy-wise. For me, it's about getting the word out there. We do it virtually or in person. You don't even have to be by one of our centers. We're helping you understand how to support your body. Sometimes it's mental shifts and physical strategies but it's not rocket science.

I've climbed Machu Picchu. In the last few years, I've mountain biked with my athletic son down Killington. We have done lots of fun things. I am so blessed. I wouldn't ever have done those things without BeBalanced. I do want women to check it out and understand that there are resources and even empower them so that when their doctor says, "You need another blood pressure medication. You need this or that," maybe ask the question, "What could I be doing that would eliminate the need for that?" The more medications we are on, the more our liver needs support.

Until I got to BeBalanced, I didn't think about all of these things and how they were impacting my body. We work with a lot of gut health because stress is impacting a lot of gut health. Forget about the shots. People don't understand these weight loss shots. We are a weight loss program but it's about getting your body up and functioning so it can act as it needs to with these shots. You're taking over your body's function so that when you stop doing it, your body doesn't know how to do it anymore on its own.

Take over your body's function so that when you stop doing it, your body doesn't know how to do it anymore on its own.

We are seeing more problems with people's gut health. We're very passionate about helping women. We see women whose lives are changed. Look at our reviews. Everybody is taking different things away. I had an Army vet with PTSD. When she came to us, her body was so depleted. She got back from a trip to Hawaii and came in glowing. She says, "I attribute this to changing my life." I can't even talk about how much it means to be. This is so much more than vitamins and weight loss. It is life-changing. Thank you for the opportunity.

As somebody who reclaimed their years ago, I am stronger, more active, and clearer in my thinking. Are gentlemen welcome too?

They have hormones as well, stress, and insulin. I would love to see them. We have good problems in that you're probably going to have to go off of some of the medications you're on. Your body is going to reclaim its ability and thyroid function. Do you know how many times I say to people who had hysterectomies, "Do you know why you had the hysterectomy?" "No one ever explained this to me."

This was a hormone imbalance you've been dealing with for years that could have been addressed naturally but instead, you've gone through this huge shift that has created more issues. We can't change that it happened. When I give them that a-ha moment and walk them through their story, they're like, "I wish I would have known that. I need to be more informed." That's where we get excited about women feeling empowered.

There's no amount of money in the world. The greatest wealth is health, and your spiritual health too. I am very pro-medicine once you do the hard work to get your body in check. With those three years of depression, I went through horrible sadness and gained 50 pounds. They're like, "You're getting older." I'm like, "I see women in their 70s who look hot and are on fire. Don't tell me this is part of life."

A funny story is a lot of our clients are doctors and nurses.

That's good for them because they need to represent most of all. The physician should be the one identifying that God made our bodies to be the most unbelievable things. There's something beyond that, something genetic, that triggers stress.

I'm not against Western medicine. That is not what I'm saying. There are a lot of ways that we could strategically and naturally support some of those functions. As needed, those things have to be done too. We were resourced with those options as well. I'm very interested in helping women, at least the low-hanging fruit.

Thank you again, Paget. What a beautiful, heartfelt, and top-shelf discussion on leadership. I learned so much from you. You're such an inspiration and a wealth of information. I'm truly blessed to be able to know you. Thank you for sharing with our audiences.

Thank you for having me.

You're welcome. Where would we be without our audiences? We would just be talking and nobody would be listening. To our tremendous tribe out there, thank you so much. If you like what you read, please hit the subscribe button. Do us the favor of a five-star review. That helps a lot when other people are looking for tips to pay the price of leadership and live a tremendous life. Please like or share, comment, reach out to Paget, and keep on paying the price of leadership. Thank you so much, everyone. You have a tremendous rest of the day.

Important Links

• BeBalanced Centers

• Urban Hands

• The Potential Principle

• Paget.Rhee@BeBalancedCenters.com

About Paget Keller Rhee

Paget Keller Rhee is the owner of 6 BeBalanced Centers, and she is passionate about inspiring women to live their best life at any age through understanding Hormone Balance and how it affects our physical and mental health!

Episode 179 - Gregory Womack - Leaders On Leadership

Despite what we see in the world, leadership is never ruthless. In fact, the best kinds of leaders are those who know how to follow. Gregory Womack has been leading his whole life, in the streets and in all the worldly sense of the world. It took him to go to prison and lose everything to go back into the man God intended him to be. In this episode, Gregory joins Dr. Tracey Jones to share his journey into leadership and how he did not accept his role as a leader until he accepted Christ as Savior. From an authentic Christian-based perspective, Gregory then shares the price for worldly leadership and how to navigate across through the wisdom and grace of God. Be the beacon of light to others as God intended you to be. Let this conversation with Gregory bring you back to the kind of leadership that could only be ordained by God.

—-

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Gregory Womack - Leaders on Leadership

In this episode, I am so thrilled to introduce my guest. His name is Gregory Womack. Gregory, welcome. It's a delight to have you here.

Thank you. It is a blessing to be here.

It is a blessing indeed. I want to tell our audience a little bit about how Gregory and I connected. First of all, Gregory Womack is a man of God who led his whole life, yet he did not accept his role as a leader until he accepted Christ as his savior. I'm going to tell you where Greg and I first met. Greg and I met behind bars. Those of you who know me and I had Lewis Lee on the show, I met Greg at a monthly book club, where we would read tremendous books about living life triumphally and abundantly.

He was going through the Leading Inmates in Faith & Education, program which is biblically based leadership. For the men who were going through this program, they got to go on as a reward and do this book club. We have known each other for several years. It's been such a delight. Some tremendous things have happened in his life since I first met him. We're going to know all about that. Greg, do you want to unpack a little bit about where you've been and how we met?

We met in SCI Mahanoy. At the time, I was serving a life sentence. In Pennsylvania, a life sentence means you never come home from prison. You're supposed to die in prison. The unique thing about my sentence was I wasn't the person who committed the crime. I was someone who was convicted of being a part of the crime. Even though I was four blocks away, because I took any part in the crime, my conviction and punishment were as severe as the person who pulled the trigger and committed the crime. It's sad to say someone lost their life in that. I can never repay that family.

I think about it all the time and I know the pain because I look at coming back home to my family and what they've been through without me. I pray for them all the time. I thank God for the second chance. As we met in the book club, for me, it was a reawakening of who God created me to be. I've led my whole life but leading in the streets and the worldly aspect was different. I didn't understand why everybody couldn't see what I saw. I would look at a thing and I would see 5 to 10 steps ahead of what needs to be done or how to do a thing.

When people couldn't understand what I was talking about, because I was talking about 5 or 10 steps ahead, I got frustrated, went on my own, and did whatever it was. That eventually led me into trouble because I would get so frustrated that I wouldn't think things fully through. I would go out and do them because I've seen what needs to be done. I didn't like talking about it. It’s like, “We know what we need to do. Let's go do it.”

It wasn't until I came to prison that I began to see that that way of leading was wrong. I didn't have all the answers but I remembered there was somebody who does. The Bible teaches us that if you raise a child in the way they should go when they're older, they will not depart. It took me to go to prison, lose everything, and go back to what I was raised in. As a child, my family sent me to Bible school. My grandmother took me to church. I knew about Jesus but I didn't know who Jesus was. I knew that Jesus saved and all the songs said it. I always say, "The Bible taught me so."

One day, I cried out to him and said, "God, if you're real, speak to me." I got an unction and an urging to go to church. I started going to church. At this time, it was a conflict because I was a leader from my neighborhood and from Philadelphia in the prison, on the worldly side of things. People looked up to me for criminality, violence, and different things. They came to me. When I say they looked to me for violence, I usually quarrel with the violence. I didn't even know God was using me, even in my worldly aspect. I didn't like violence or trouble. When it came, I was able to talk to people, get a mutual understanding, and things like that.

I always was different in that aspect because I never liked vice. I didn't like fighting or any of that stuff. When I accepted Christ, that's when I learned why I didn't like it. It's because God never made me that way. He made me to be a peacemaker for blessed it is the peacemaker. That's what I was being used to. As I accepted Christ, I started seeing that I was a leader. God’s gifts and talents are without repentance. God gave me a gift as a child. He told Jeremiah, "Before I knitted you together in your mother's womb, I knew you." What that verse teaches me is that God gives us everything we need before we come out of the womb.

As people, we live in the gifts that God gives us but it's not until we allow God to lead us and teach us how to utilize those gifts that we begin to walk in a godly fashion and maximize the talents and the gifts that God has given us. For me, it was accepting and grasping the fact that I was a leader, and then understanding that as a leader, you see things differently than other people.

I had to understand then that everybody's not going to see the way I see. Everybody's not born to be a leader like I am. When I did that, I began to accept people for who they were and who they are, and put them in positions of success where would excel and reach their full potential. Though they may not have been a leader in this one area, I wasn't better than them. They could teach me some things. I had to learn to humble myself and allow others to begin to teach me.

As God began to teach me these things, I knew that I was in prison because I didn't understand the full grasp of everything. I was a great athlete in high school. I had college scholarships and different things that were afforded to me but chasing after the world and the lust therein caused me to lose all those things. Sitting in prison, loneliness, weariness, and abandonment, these things came to me and made me realize that I was a little bit different than everybody else. I saw the world differently than everybody else.

The only stimulation I could get while in prison was in books so I read the Bible front to back. I read it again every year. I made it a point to read the whole Bible and begin to live the Bible and understand the Bible. I had to understand it from God's perspective and not mine. The Bible talks about, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." I knew Jesus said it but I didn't understand it at the time. As I began to try to live the Bible, I began to understand that I desire to live for God but I was going to fail sometimes.

The Bible says that all sin falls short in the glory of God. I had to realize that I was one of those all and accept that. It enabled me to love other people. I started seeking knowledge. I wanted to be better and become a better person. Your book club, that's how we came about. I started reading. When you offered that opportunity to keep growing and look at things from other aspects, that's what I did. I chose it. It was one of the best decisions I made after accepting Christ in my life.

I look back at that. I remember our discussions and you leading the men in there. What a beautiful time. It still is a phenomenal time as it's slowly opening back up. How long were you behind bars?

I did 29 years.

Just so people understand, it didn't just happen and Greg popped out. That was a beautiful segue into the price of leadership. There's a price for worldly leadership and it's an awful one because it's a trap. It looks alluring. You guys taught me 1 thing or 2 about how that happens and how you wind back behind bars. We're talking about the price of real authentic Christian-based leadership.

My father did this speech many years ago. He talks about the four things that you are going to have to be paid to truly be a leader and not a leader in name only. The first one is loneliness. Could you unpack what loneliness means to you as a leader? I'm sure you felt it behind bars and in the outside world. Also, some words of advice for our audience if they're going through a season of loneliness.

I spoke on a piece of it before. It's looking at a situation, seeing every step of what needs to be done, and realizing what needs to be done but then looking around and realizing that nobody else can see those steps and has the vision that God has given to you as a leader. You have to go into the Bible and remember what God said in Habakkuk. Write the vision down so that those who read it can run with it. As you're writing, you're looking for support, energy, and help. God has only given you that vision because God has placed you in that leadership.

Write the vision down so that those who read it can run with it.

That loneliness is a battle because you start feeling depressed. You start taking it on as if it's you in the world. I forget the prophet who said, "God, they killed everybody else. I'm the only one left." You start feeling like, "I'm the only one that's doing this." I thank God that He always left a rambling and has somebody to call and encourage you. You get on the TV, see something, and remember, how can you be the only one left when you have the Almighty God with you? You keep persevering, pushing on, sharing, and seeking wisdom.

As God did with Moses, he said, "Moses, as you're building a temple, call this person because I've taught them what to do. I've given them the gift of how to build what needs to be built inside of the tabernacle." God will use you and show you the people that you need because he's already gifted them to help fulfill the vision that he's given to you. In doing that, you understand and you better cope with the loneliness. I can't say it leaves because, on the next task, you'll go through it again. It's a continued cycle but as you begin to trust and rely on God more, you don't dwell in it as long.

Even Christ said, "I'm going someplace the rest of you can't go." They're like, "What do you mean?" I love that you said that it is a cycle until we get to the other side but we don't dwell on it. As you grow spiritually, you move through it a lot quicker. I'm sure you've seen that in your development. Greg, that was a beautiful discussion on loneliness.

Let's talk about weariness. How do you stay not just in good physical form? We talked about that in prison trying to eat well, stay well, sleep well, and keep your mind well. How do you stay atop finding form one? My dad would say what you said, "There's always going to be a few people who see and do more but a lot of people are going to do less. You're going to end up having to pick up a lot more of the weight.” How do you stay strong?

The first thing that I remember is that God forgave me and was patient with me. As I am walking this journey of faith and this journey of leadership, it is difficult. I started a business when I came home and it was a cleaning business. My wife and I couldn't get any employees. The ones who did come would get paid Friday and don't show up again until Wednesday. They expect to get paid for Monday and Tuesday for the week. It became a thing to go to work every day. It was a struggle. I started becoming judgmental and growing weary. I was like, "I'm done."

This thing of leadership gets like that because you want others to step in and people to do these things. You also want them to be right and live right for Christ because you're standing up in your profession, Jesus as your Lord and savior but yet you're going to the bar, smoking weed, getting drunk, and cheating on your wife. Also, you're not married but living in a house with a woman or a man that you don't plan to marry.

As a leader, I look at it and I'm like, "How can I put you in a leadership position? I don't want anybody to follow you because I wouldn't follow you." That causes you to grow weary and me to think, "I'm tired of this. Lord, give me something I can do by myself. I don't need anybody else." That's when I remembered that God was patient and merciful with me. He was forgiving of me. The Bible says, "When you pray, forgive if you expect your father to forgive you of anything."

It was at that moment that I realized I don't have a heaven or hell to put anybody in. I can't judge someone and cause them not to walk in the path that God has laid for them, that God already knew they would walk in. How do I know I'm not the light that may click in their hearts and minds and make them say, "I want to get right with God?" That's what helps me fight through that weariness of wanting to give up on people and on a vision that God has given me with people to help people. That's the key for me to come out of weariness.

Everybody out there reading would say that is the hardest thing. People don't get it. God is so patient with us. You may be the one that makes it click in. That was beautiful about staying strong. The next thing he talked about was abandonment. Abandonment isn't a fear of abandonment or abandoning your dog or cat. It was abandoning what you like and want to think about in favor of what you ought and need to think about.

When we were in prison, there were thousands of men there and 15 to 20 maybe at the book club. People would think and do things that they want to do. It takes discipline to focus on what you need to focus on. Now that you're back or even inside with all the stuff going around, how do you purge all the nonsense and stay very tightly focused on what you know you need to do, especially as the clock has been going on for 29 years?

Dealing with abandonment, God has brought me somebody who won't abandon me and someone for life. The Bible says that the two shall lead their parents and become one. Therefore, I'll never be abandoned again. Praise God.

Amen.

On the inside, dealing with abandonment was hurtful but the sting of it left after 29 years. You have to think about it. After 29 years, how many times have I dealt with the abandonment of someone I cared about and walked by myself? The first one hurt and it lasts for maybe three months. The next one lasts for a month and a half. The next one, a couple of weeks. It became to the point where I started looking at relationships as they'll leave soon. I'm not giving my all or pouring my all in. On the inside, what you said brought me back to something I physically did.

I went outside, stood in the middle of the yard, and spun around in a circle. I looked at thousands of men walking around, out there playing, and doing whatever they were doing. I was the only person standing where I was by myself. I said, "With all these people around, how could I still be lonely and in this situation by myself?" I realized that we all were hurting and didn't know how to love.

To deal with an abandonment issue, the scripture says, "If you leave your father, mother, sister, or brother for my namesake, I'll give you more. I'll bring people to you." I realized that I was a son. As a son, I had a father, and then I had brothers. It was Luther Vandross who made a song. All this was happening at the same time. This is how good God is and how sovereign. The song said, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." That makes so much sense.

Christian Leadership: "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with."

If I can't be with my physical family and those who walked away from me and who I want to be here, let me love my brothers who are here. As a leader, I began to develop different programs. We started having a Sunday prayer table every Sunday morning with rain, snow, or whatever we had. If they let us outside, we went outside. We met and prayed.

I developed a Christian talent show. We call it the Gospel Jamboree. People who were in the church but not a part of the church, meaning they weren't in the choir but they could sing, act, tell jokes, rap, or dance, we had something for them. I developed a program called Christians Preparing for Release, CPR. In that, what we did was we had workshops where we talked to men. We prepared them for release to come out into the world and serve God out here.

Most men in prison never serve God on the outside. We don't know what that feels like. I began to cultivate a family to deal with that abandonment. I began to see that other men were dealing with it and loved it too. That's how I dealt with it on the inside. Out here, it's different because I have options. I know who loves and serves God. I still deal with the abandonment issue because as a believer, everybody's not going to accept your way of living.

In 29 years, I dreamed of coming home and getting my family back together. Also, being a leader that leads everybody to Christ and they all fall in line. When I came home, that didn't happen. Family members were upset. "You don't want to smoke weed?" No, I don't want to smoke. "You don't want to drink?" "No, I don't. Give me water. I'm okay with water." They started treating me badly and abandoned me. I had to deal with those issues but on the outside, I’m like, “I waited all this time to come to help you.”

God showed me, "Greg, you want to help somebody who never asks for help. You're upset that they're not taking it. Even though they needed the help, they didn't ask. You can't force it on them." I had to go back to, “If you can't be with the ones you love, love the ones you're with.” I surrounded myself with the body of believers. We have fun.

We have game night once a month at different people's houses. We come together, go on trips together, and go out to dinner. It's all believers. The best thing about it is that 95% of the people who participate are men that I was incarcerated with. We all come together with our families and wives. We have fun like that. That's how I deal with it out here.

I remember when we were in there and people would be coming up for release. The thing was always like, "If you leave your Bible in here, you're going to be back in to read it again." Every time I go in there at the bookshop, I look at those bibles and I'm like, "I wonder whose hands touch this? I wonder if they're still following God if they found a Bible on the outside." For the audience out there, this isn't for getting out of print. This is a thing in life. A quarter of three strands is not easily broken. That was the big thing we all talked about, the stuff you're learning in the books. You have to be with people. People will always let you down but the covenantal relationship is Christ. Your wife is a covenantal relationship.

You have to get with the people that you know are threaded with the love of God and that draws you all together. What stuck out in what you said was real leadership, we love it well. We don't just do well and tell people, "We can see what they need but that's up to the Holy Spirit to win them. All we can do is love them.” He already knew before. Even in the womb, he knows what's going to happen. Our job is to love well and the Holy Spirit does the rest. Greg, that was beautiful.

Loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and then vision. What is your vision? You had a vision for one day when you got out. You're then out and God is blessing you abundantly. The best is yet to come and we want to finish the race strong. How do you continue to craft your vision for Gregory Womack in this next season of life that God has given you?

The first thing I had to learn about vision and coming home was humility. I say that because as I spoke earlier, 29 years was my vision of coming home, helping, leading my family to Christ, and ministering. God had given me a vision of having my family in a church and praying with me in tears. I'm going to get a little emotional because, within four months of coming home, the vision was fulfilled. I didn't know it would be me ministering at my uncle's funeral. My father was there. My mother didn't come. My aunts, my family, everyone was there and they got to see me minister the gospel of Jesus Christ.

It was a blessing and a powerful moment in my life. I didn't think it would be at a funeral. That's God. That's what God gives me. That's why I say humility because I thought I would be up in the pulpit somewhere and sharing the gospel in the church and on Sunday. Humility is the way God will have it done is how God has always prepared it to be done.

The way God will have it done is how God has always prepared it to be done.

In twisting that vision, I said, "God, you see things differently." He says, "My ways are not your ways, nor are my thoughts your thoughts. As high as the sky is from the ground so are my thoughts from yours." I'm like, "Lord, what do you want?" I had a vision to come home, drive trucks, and do these things. God is like, "Not now." I asked what vision he had for me.

He gave it to me. I was calling you to talk about it. It's understanding technology and how to use the platform that we're on like social media and different things to honor God. He showed it to me through the young people, how they can type 3 or 4 words and have hundreds of people meet up at one spot. God said, "Utilize that. If you are still trying to teach and minister the way they did in the ‘80s and ‘90s, that's not going to work because the culture has moved past that. To reach the people, you have to be other people. Be in the world but not of the world."

If I'm in the world and the world is using technology, then I have to advance to use technology. My vision is to get the ministry onto some of these platforms on social media and different things so that I can reach people. Also, going into juvenile facilities or schools and talking to the children. God has blessed me to do some of those things. I'm a referee. I'm able to teach kids but the thing that I have to grab hold of is the culture, where at certain places, they don't want you outright to say Jesus.

God says to be as wise as a serpent but as harmless as a dove. I'm asking him how to use Jesus and keep Jesus in everything. One thing he gave me through my grandmother was my cross. My grandmother gave it to me. I wear it. When I'm talking about God, I'll grab hold of it and let people know, "This is what I'm talking about. My Lord, my savior." I'll say Jesus and get it to a point where I'm not offensive, which is impossible. Talking about Jesus, some people will be offended. I understand that. If I'm not allowed back, that's not what God had for me.

My vision is to reach millions of people. I do have a story and a word. God raised me on both sides of the track. I'm from Philadelphia and was raised in Norristown. I can hold a conversation with different levels of society, be effective, and communicate in all areas. Also, be receptive and received by those people. I am truly excited.

I’m meeting here with you with this blessing and vision. I’m fulfilled that I was working with you or doing something because you are truly appreciated for taking time out of your life and your schedule to come inside and help someone like me feel like a human being. Someone like me feels like somebody does care. You care enough to come in and give us free books. Someone taught me that every blessing is not what the person asks for. Sometimes it's what the person needs.

The old proverb says, "If you teach a person to feed a fish, they'll eat a day. If you teach them to fish, they'll eat the rest of their life." You're coming in, giving me the tools, and helping me learn how to fish and feed myself. Coming out here, I had to read after 29 years. It'll be hard for people to imagine how much the world has changed.

It's hard because they live through it but you have to think about being taken out of the world. In 1993, I was taken out of the world so it stopped right there. I didn't have any growth or see the internet. When I left, cell phones were fitting in my hand. Only a certain amount of people could afford them, doctors and lawyers, and that was it. I come home and see five-year-olds have cell phones and know how to use them. You can do everything on it.

These are things that I had to take the time to sit down and read how to do this, like learning how to work Google. I was scared to talk on the phone for four months. I had to read and other things that I'm learning. These are tools that you taught me, how to digest a book, read with comprehension, understand what you're reading, and eat the meat and spit out the bones of it. I'm thankful for that. Part of my vision is not just to utilize the gifts that God has blessed me through people like you but to pass them on to the next generation and help them see their worth.

Christian Leadership: Part of my vision now is not just to utilize the gifts that God has blessed me through people like you, but to pass them on to the next generation and help them to see their worth.

Part of the abandonment and loneliness was me looking in the mirror and understanding who I was as a man of God, as a child of God, as an ambassador for God, and as a peculiar person. Not only accepting it but being excited that I was. I'm going to teach that to the next generation. You don't have to be like everybody else or do what everybody else does. Be yourself. Be an individual. Stand out from other people for one reason or another. Not just you're drawing attention to yourself because you want to be flamboyant or noticed but because you're unique. God didn't make you like someone else.

Someone once told me, "If God wanted you to be like them, then you guys would have the same name." You have a different name and fingerprints for a reason. God made you an individual. That's what I want to teach the next generation. That's a part of my vision and fulfilling it will be through starting a podcast, traveling, doing speeches, or encouraging children. Wherever God leads me, I'm willing to accept it. That's where the humility came in.

I have to realize that it's not my vision. It's the vision and purpose that God has for me that I'll be walking out. In doing that, I have to be accepting of what God says. When He says go, go, like he did to the children of Israel. “Stay,” they stayed. “Turn,” they turned. That's how I have to be. That's where I'm at, trusting God and allowing him to lead.

Every time I sit here and think about where we were, those were beautiful times. You talk about how I blessed you, you guys bless me. You know I was with you during a stage in my life when some awful things were going on. It was my respite going in there. You guys spoke the truth to me. When I was getting into my negativity, I had to go back to you to get reoriented to Christ.

The feeling was so mutual. You think I bless you but I got twenty times the blessing getting to pour in and have you guys poured into me. What is the best way for people to get ahold of you? You talk about talking to schools and are available to share your testimony. We'll be sharing with the people when you get your podcast together. What's the best way for people to connect with you?

The best way to connect with me would be through email. My email is GregoryWomack22@Gmail.com. That would be the best way to reach me. Send me an email. I check them every day. I'll get right back to you. If anyone wants to speak further with me or invite me somewhere to speak, I have no problem. If it's about the kingdom, I'm about the business. If it's kingdom business, let's go. I'm all for the Lord.

Greg, I want to thank you again for the reconnection, for being such an important part of my life, and for the wisdom that you shared with our audience. Yours is truly a peculiar but unbelievably anointed perspective. Listening to you takes me back to our time there. I can see how God has continued to bless you mightily. Your words will truly bless all the audience. Thank you, Gregory.

Thank you for everything, Dr. Tracey Jones. I truly appreciate you. The perspective you gave during those hours that you came, you didn't realize it but it allowed me to jump over the fence. During those hours, I wasn't in prison. I was a human being. I was living and learning as a human is supposed to. It encouraged me to keep going. Thank you. I continue to pray for you, your marriage, and your business, that God will bless, multiply, and continue to use you in a mighty way. Thank you for everything. God bless you.

Thank you, Gregory. We have to give a shoutout to Marcia and Ed Sinkovitz who started the whole ministry because if it weren't for them, it's all about connections to people you meet, and then the books you read. For anybody out there contemplating getting involved in a prison ministry, there's nothing like it. Run, don't walk, to your nearest person who can make a difference in people's lives. Greg, you had me at the end there talking about blessing my heart. I can go out and move mountains again. Thank you for your words of encouragement.

To our audience, I want to thank you so much for reading, for being part of our tremendous tribe, and for paying the price of leadership. If you like what you read, please be sure to hit the subscribe button. If you would do us the honor of a review, that's so important. That helps other people find what we are putting out there that may need some wisdom and encouragement in paying the price of leadership.

Share with other people because what Greg shared, the whole world needs to hear. We thank you for being a part of this and for paying the price of leadership. Remember, you'll be the same person years from now that you are now, except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read so make them both tremendous. Have a tremendous rest of the day. God bless you.

Important Links

• Lewis Lee - Past Episode

• Leading Inmates in Faith & Education

• GregoryWomack22@Gmail.com

About Gregory Womack

Gregory Womack is a man of God who led his whole life. Yet did not accept his role as a leader until he accepted Christ as Savior! Listen to a story that could only be ordained by God.

Episode 178 - Lt.Gen. (Ret.) Michelle Johnson - Leaders On Leadership

Leadership isn't just about the stars on your shoulders; it's about having the courage to step into the unknown, where you might just learn how to fly. In this inspiring episode, we have Retired Lieutenant General Michelle Johnson to share her journey of breaking barriers in leadership. As the first woman to ever become a Cadet Wing Commander in the U.S. Air Force Academy, she paved the way for future generations of leaders. Today, she dives into the core principles of leadership such as the importance of courage, vision, and managing up. She shares her experiences in managing complex international relationships, navigating the political landscape, and persuading those who hold power. Lt. Gen. Johnson's leadership journey shows how having faith in yourself and your ability to adapt can lead you to new heights. Tune in now!

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Lt.Gen. (Ret.) Michelle Johnson - Leaders on Leadership

I am so excited. My guest is Retired Lieutenant General Michelle Johnson. General, welcome.

Thanks so much for having me, Tracey. It's been so good to know someone from my decade at the Air Force Academy.

Let me tell you a little bit about Retired Lieutenant General Michelle Johnson. She was in the class of ‘81 at the United States Air Force Academy. It’s my alma mater, so you know how tremendous she is. ‘81 was the second class of women that graduated. She was also the first female cadet to be named Cadet Wing Commander, which is quite the deal, and she later went on to become the first female officer to serve as the Air Force Academy Superintendent.

She was our 19th sup. Currently, she is the one and only female who has been appointed to be the superintendent of one of the service academies. Talk about a trailblazer, Michelle. Not only that, she was also inducted into the inaugural class of the United States Air Force Academy Athletic Hall of Fame and a Rhodes scholar.

While in uniform, she served as the Air Force Aide to the President, an Air Force Squadron, and Group and Wing Commander. Let me tell you. She was in C-141s, KC-10s, KC-135s, C-5s, and C-17s, and she also worked at the NATO/SHAPE, where she was a Deputy Chief of Staff Intel and operations. She also served with the NBA as the senior vice president and head of referee operations. She is married to the tremendous John Hargreaves. She’s a retired pilot and the happy parent of two sons. Michelle, I wish you would have focused and done something with your life. I salute you. I’m starstruck.

This is how I connected with Michelle. This is the tremendous people you meet in the book you read. In September 2023, I was in Philly. Many of you know, I talk about the American College of Financial Services often and I have the blessing of serving on their Center for Military and Veterans Affairs. Every year, they do a Soldier Citizen Clambake Award and we gave the award to Admiral Mullen from the Navy this past September. While I was there, I had the amazing honor of connecting and sitting at the table with Michelle. That's where we met. Michelle, do you want to tell them about your connection with the American College of Financial Services?

It's been a wonderful association. I was a friend and colleague in the Air Force with the Provost when I was on faculty at the Air Force Academy. Gwen Hall was as well, and she introduced me to the new CEO of the American College, George Nichols, who was a transformational leader. You could talk with him sometime.

I was born in Iowa without a lot of means. He was born in Kentucky without a lot of means, but he made his way through New York Life Insurance and he's come back to give back and to take this college. That had been a designated correspondent school for people in the financial industry to take it to the next level.

To not only help make it a robust educational opportunity for people and financial services but to help apply practical financial knowledge to people who need it in underrepresented communities like veterans. I’m trying to be a great supporter of the Veterans Center that you're an advisor for, but he's also in the Centers for African-Americans, members of the financial community, and families with people who suffer disabilities. They have special financial planning challenges.

To try to attend to the realities that human beings are still within life but maybe haven't been touched by knowledge of financial practices and how things work. The whole atmosphere of service reminds me a little bit about the service you and I tried to provide to our country but in a different way to serve others to build community. That's what drew me. I’m so honored to be one of the trustees on the board of trustees for the college.

Thank you for sharing that and I love that you said come back to give back. As we transition through a lot of our readers, they're on their second, third, and fourth careers and they keep coming back to continue to give back. Michelle, my father, wrote a speech called The Price of Leadership many years ago. It's one of the ones that has been most downloaded because it's very raw, authentic, and practical.

In it, he talks about the things that you are going to have to be paying as a price to be a leader and not just a leader in name only. I can't wait to hear your take on this, especially the first one, loneliness. There were few women in my class ’88. There was ‘97 in the first class of females at the Air Force Academy, so you're already a small group but tend to be the first, the one, the only. Can you unpack what loneliness looks like for you at a time in your career as leadership and what you would share with our audience if they're going through a season of it?

There are different angles of it, as you point out, to go and suddenly become a minority. I’m from Northwest Iowa, so I was not in a minority there. As a woman, we're half part of the humanity but also as a wide-angle Saxon Protestant. I went to the Air Force Academy and suddenly, from being a woman and a lot of other factors, I was a minority.

It was a new idea to people. They didn't study the history. We could talk about this more later, but what was happening when I graduated from high school in 1977, all volunteer forces needed everybody. All hands on deck. We can't draft people now and it can't be one certain group of people. We need everybody in an all-volunteer military force. I didn't know that at that time.

I thought it was an opportunity for education. I was a basketball player but also to serve for a while. It was lonely and shocking. It was aggressive. It’s like, “In your face, you don't belong here,” kind of lonely. You have to cleave to what you believe, what you're striving for, and what's the shared purpose. Some officers, cadets, men, and women did as well.

You don't belong here, but for every one of those, there were 5 or 10 great educators and mentors who'd say, “You're capable of this. Why don't you try it? Why don't you try for a scholarship? Make sure you're in the flying program.” I didn't know it. It says the Air Force Academy. I know that, but my family was farmers. They didn’t even think about that. That's part of it, but the structural loneliness thing is part of some things.

I found as I got more senior, I was in uniform for 40 years, basically if you include the four years from the Academy. At the end of my career, I was more senior and I’d be put in different organizations to help solve problems. I was a stranger because I hadn't been in their community or their tribe for a long time. It was professional loneliness. You haven't done what we've done. It was a very interesting skillset, but I think there were similarities.

Part of being a leader, if you wish to do that, is to be out of your comfort zone and move other people out of their comfort zone. You may have read Marty Linsky's work, Adaptive Leadership. This isn't a military thing. This is modern leadership. Leadership isn't always conforming, following the rules, and checking the box.

Part of being a leader is to be out of your comfort zone and move other people out of their comfort zone.

That's management. What do you need to do? Management is super important. You got to do that. If you don't, keep the books or you're in trouble. If you want to adapt to new things, new demands, or new missions, you need to move an organization and yourself out of your comfort zone. That's lonely and it's in your new territory. You're not where you want to be yet, but you're pretty far from shore. You need to find a way to move forward and to understand it.

Understanding the history of how you got there to prepare and say, “How do we get here? Where we're trying to go?” and then communicate that to help you see the loneliness. It's a real thing. I deployed one time when I was in KC-10s in the ‘90s. We spent a lot of time deployed in Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates. I could give tours of Abu Dhabi.

During the First Gulf War, we called that Show Air Force Base or Show Abu Dhabi.

It's very elaborate now, evidently, but we were still intense and then the rocks out there. We would deploy from our Squadron. Our Squadron was in California, Travis Air Force Base, between Sacramento and San Francisco. Usually, when you are deployed, you take on the next level of responsibilities. My captains and majors had to take roles as schedulers and flight commanders at a greater level than they would have had at home. I ran into one of our majors. We're standing outside at 135 degrees, which was something I should admit was a bad idea. He stopped me. I was a lieutenant colonel and he said, “I get it now. It's lonely being in charge of people or being responsible.” He was feeling it.

He said, “When you walk in the room, people stop talking because now you're them. It's us and them and now you're them.” If you can prove that you care about them at the shared mission more than yourself, everybody benefits. However, if you try to act remotely and act like you're the warlord and you're the strong person leader, “Do what I say. I’m the boss,” the divide is worse and it's terrible for everybody.

If you can prove that you care about them at the shared mission more than yourself, everybody benefits.

Unfortunately, when I ran into people in the private sector, sometimes they think that's what leadership is. You're the boss and you tell people what to do. What I learned, on the contrary, is how did we get here and where are we going? Communicate that. Be consistent and fair and people will come along with you and help accomplish tremendous things despite there being tremendous in this thing.

We've had a lot of people in the military. I know they get to the colonel level and then they go into these staff positions. They're in more civilian sectors outside of their tribe and you have to show you care and share. Otherwise, I’ve seen some bad culture clashes and it chewed up some great people and spent them out.

When you come out of wearing the uniform after 40 years, we have people in our tremendous tribe who are leaving entrepreneurship or life insurance to go and do the next chapter. When you came out of uniform, I know, like me, it is different because it's such a collective. It's such camaraderie. It's so much fun. It's so crazy and scary. I think of that loneliness. It’s like, “I was a chiropractor for 30 years and now I’m not.” Where are you at right now in that transition because I know it hasn't been all that long.

I retired in 2017 from the Air Force and I left the NBA in 2019. I’m going to touch on some of the other points you're going to bring up because I think what your dad hit on applies. A part of it is an executive leadership. I became a generalist, by the way. Executive leadership is being a generalist because the main thing you are an expert at, perhaps for a long time, is one of many things you're in charge of.

Your confidence as a professional may have been based on that competence in a particular flying that plane, so all the plans had different cultures too. Each crew, the way you pronounce the checklist, there’s a different culture. There’s the way you did the bag drag. I flew cargo around the world in C-141 on the ground.

It’s the next thing up from a C-130. You’re in the dirt working. You’re considered knucklebusters. You dragged your own bag, helped each other, and helped with maintenance. KC-10s were like Gucci. These are fancy planes. We wear headsets and park at different places. It’s a different way to communicate and maneuver.

I had a pretty collective career in the Air Force, even operationally, but when I would talk with the senior officials, even civilians in the DoD, let alone, as you said, in the private sector, you can be a specialist for about so long and then when you go into management or leadership, you're responsible for a varied spectrum of skillsets.

I found people whose confidence was based on the specific. In their competence, they lost their confidence because now I’m managing people who know more about many things than I do. I was going to talk about the letting go part or my angle on abandonment. Part of it is letting go of, “I know what I know, but I’m going to let go of my ego and let go of my fear that I don't know everything. My fear of I can't control everything.”

Let go and empower the ones next to you. That was the last sixteen years of my career in the Air Force. I went from a flying wing to being in charge of personnel, air mobility command, and public affairs for the Air Force. What do I know about that? I know about bringing people together in their expertise and doing their homework.

We visited USAA and the senior vice president for corporate communication. How do you communicate in a big enterprise to try to get better? I had my public affairs experts learn. They knew more about setting up a press conference than I did and that's okay. I had to let go. I had a lot of people who are in the military or support people like the Navy Supply Corps.

The logo on their collar looks like a pork chop, so other people operators call them pork chops, which is terrible. That’s a terrible thing. Not because it’s not respectful but because the people who work for me who are in Navy Supply went to Harvard Business School. They are smart about supply chains, big logistics, and the national power source, so I tried to assemble teams who could solve problems.

That’s what I became. I was a change agent because we would have to do things differently. It would take a few months to earn people’s trust that I do care more about the mission and myself. I’m going to be okay. I was blessed that John was home taking care of me and the boys. He said that was his mission. The home was not relaxing because we had twin babies. When they were toddlers, they pinned on my Brigadier General Stars. The home was incredibly not restful but empowering and full of love. It was safe and recharging, so I didn’t have anything to lose. I want to do my best.

When people realize that whether they were at Fort Meade with cyber, when we did cyber command, or when I wound up at NATO/SHAPE in the Southern part of Belgium with generals from other countries who had never been around a woman General officer because other countries haven’t done that yet, they had to deal with me.

Sometimes, I had to be tough to get their attention because I’m 5’8” on a good day or used to be. My voice isn't baritone. Sometimes, if I say things nicely and quietly the first 2 or 3 times, they don't hear it. I learned something. I don't know if Armand Hammer said this. Somebody else besides me said this, but I liked it and I used to repeat it.

When you come up with a new idea or a new thing with a new group of people who don't know you, the first 50 times you say the thing we need to do together, they don't even hear you. It doesn't even register. The second 50 times, they don't understand you. I heard you, but what? The third 50 times, they don't believe you. At 151, they'll go, “Is that what you meant?” Sometimes our spouses do that, so this isn't just at work. However many times it is, it's a lot on that 151st time. I have a memento from an old job that they put on a fake magazine cover 151 times. On 151st time, they go, “That's what you meant.”

When people start owning it for them, I say no. What do I know about cyber? I know about policy, people working together, strategic opportunities, operational requirements, and how to think operationally. That's why I endured in service so long. There wasn't a path for women and women weren't allowed in fighters or bombers when I went to pilot training.

We did heavies, but when I got out of that tribe, other tribes realized I had something to offer to their tribe. It was communication and consistency. I did my homework. They'd say, “Johnson, it's a good thing you were right.” Sometimes, you are the voice in the wilderness and you have to double-check and have someone.

The last thing I’ll say is it's great to have an ally, companion, a mentor, maybe someone not exactly in your chain of command, but it's a sanity check to say, “I know in the voice in the wilderness. I genuinely don't want to be crazy. It sounds crazy to people when it's new.” I do have another anecdote about that from the NBA. What do you think? Give me a sanity check.

My late sister worked as a manager in a big insurance company. She was my voice of reason on management types of things. My husband loves me too much to be a great critic of speeches but in terms of practical operational matters, he's a crudogue as we used to say. He's a very pragmatic electrical engineer dude who graduated from VMI, so he could give me the straight scoop, but sometimes I needed somebody else from the world that I was in to say sanity check.

You're not alone. Leadership is a team sport. Even though you feel alone, you're not alone because the whole point of leadership is being with other people. The last thing I’ll mention from the NBA is brilliant. A chief of NBA referee operations is still there, Monty McCutchen. He used to be my partner. I tried to codify what he knew in process, resources, and training, but he's wise. One time he said to me, “Michelle did this brilliant thing.” I said, “What brilliant thing?”

Cadet Wing Commander: Leadership is a team sport. Even though you feel alone, you're not alone because the whole point of leadership is being with other people.

He said, “To bring when the referees rotate through New York, Brooklyn, and New Jersey during the season, have a small group in-season training sessions and go over video and talk about the position as they do.” I said, “Monty, what's brilliant about that? That's practical training. That's continuing training from the intense stuff you do in the summer to do it throughout the season.” He said, “It's brilliant to me because I never would have thought of that.”

That's from a different world. That brought it from being a pilot in the Air Force. No matter what field you're in, the Air Force or any service or trade, you have resources and you’re committed to training. You have criteria and standards for performance and you evaluate people on that. That's easy. It's not easy for other people who don't know. It was a new idea to him. I wasn't alone, but for a while, I was lonely because I had to say that 151 times.

There's this duality of it and they're going to be times and sometimes you need to get alone because you're getting prepped or purified or we did something or we need to own it. It's not a bad thing. I’ve heard people say, “You’re only lonely because you did something wrong.” There are reasons for everything. You can be accused of something.

There are all bad things that happen to good people to put you in a lonely place, but I love that you talked about having somebody outside of your chain of command to be an ally or a voice of reason to sit there. That's so important because otherwise, we're too much in the same arena. We can often get what we need to hear and people tell us what they think or see it through the same ones we do. I love that you brought that aspect up.

Even at the Academy, it's an institution of higher education. It's a commissioning source. It's in a beautiful place. It's a good gig to be in Colorado Springs at 7,000 feet altitude, on the side of the mountains on the front range, and be with all these wonderful young people from across the world and our country. Obviously, we have cadets from 70 countries across the world that come through. Even that place could become inward-looking and I would say, “See ourselves as others see us.”

You may do something and it's motivated by every pure thought, but externally, it's perceived differently because they don't have the context. They haven't lived in that group. That's sometimes the fresh eyes. The fresh eyes can be lonely eyes, but you need them, as you said, to go off and reflect. Think about how we get here, what we are trying to do, and how we get there together.

Cadet Wing Commander: The fresh eyes can be lonely eyes, but you need them to go off and reflect. Think about how we get here, what we are trying to do, and how we get there together.

We calibrate and reorient how we're going to make the end goals. You talked about having to support your family. It’s the next topic and again, he talked about weariness. I love that you talked about you had the great thing. People always say that when you have two alphas married, how do you guys do it? Do you kill each other? I’m like, “No. Two alphas means double the resources, double the tenacity, we're not quitting, and we're not giving up.” It's almost this complementary thing.

I love to combat the work-life balance because here you are pinning on your store and you have little ones at home. Every woman out there, heck every man out there, has to deal with juggling fortune, family, and growing that. You had that to help you be strong and safe, especially you had to stay rested to fly, rested to command, and make decisions when you're going to hostile or the fog and friction war. How do you combat weariness, Michelle?

Sometimes, it isn't possible to do it on your own. One of these things is when I was a squadron commander and my husband was in Okinawa for three years. It was our longest separation. We only had cats then, so we’re waiting for kids. We were older parents. We didn't live together very often initially. I remember it was coming up on Christmas.

Our flight sergeant for our Squadron and first sergeant was hovering around my office. I worked long hours and it was KC-10 Squadron. I fly all the time and it was only about 250 people. People take time. If you listen to them, care about them, do the documentation, and everything, it takes a lot of time. I know this one evening as Christmas was approaching, these two guys, the flight surgeon, and the first sergeant, were in my office talking with me and it hit me.

I looked at them and I said, “You're taking care of me, aren't you right now? Your first sergeanting me. You're checking on me.” They said, “Yes, ma'am.” In terms of letting go, let people help you. It's so hard to ask for help to even know you need help. At a student level for cadets, they get themselves in a hole and grades. All they needed to do was raise their hand and ask for help.

Everybody wants you to succeed there. If you're in an organization, unless you're a hateful, loathsome human being, which hopefully none of us are, people want you and the organization to succeed. If you've been giving to everybody else, they want to help you and you need to let them. That's super hard, but that was a real blessing to have people like that around me.

Did I always take their advice? No. I was probably horrible about that, but you do need to take care of yourself. I don't have musical talents, but some people do. That feels like their tank of joy. Don't forget to find your joy. If the boys were running around, John would leave. I was a brigadier general at the Pentagon and we lived near the Pentagon, so I could walk over and at least be home to maybe see him at bath time and go to bedtime and stuff.

He'd say, “Look at the wall.” It’s the big crayon drawing all over the wall that we would have to repaint, but he said, “I left it for you because I knew you'd get a kick out of it,” or the big pile of chairs and pillows and stuff in the living room because that was there for filled my tank and that was terrific. Even that said, it has driven type A as I am and you take different roles at home. I was playing a type B at home. He both can at the same time, but he was a leader at home and obviously at work in different settings and back and forth.

I read Viktor Frankl’s book and when I’m having a bad day, I’ll think, “He survived the Holocaust and he lost his whole family. He was a psychologist and he chose to stay with his family when he could have gotten out.” His writings were helpful about the meaning of life. You’re doing something you love with people you love. When you’re faced with adversity or have the attitude to face adversity in a way, that’s an achievement. Getting yourself out of a predicament is an achievement and it doesn’t come across as a Rhodes scholarship, a medal, a lot of money, fame, or anything.

When you're faced with adversity or have the attitude to face adversity in a way, that's an achievement.

If you have the grit to overcome the challenge, that’s empowering. Even my friend Monty, the head of referees at the NBA, is a philosopher and ref. He’s not published it, but he’s got a manuscript. He was written about sports. People do sports because they want to be challenged against the standard. It’s like, “Let me see how good am I at this. I want to know. I’m going to do my best and then if I’m not the best, dog on it. I’m not, but I’m going to give it my shot.” Sometimes, some aspects of public service are like that. Flying a plane is hard. You don’t pop out of high school and know how to fly a jet, manage a mission and every fuel, do the kinds of things we did, or be a Thunderbird like Nicole Malachowski.

I think a lot of people want to be challenged and say, “How good would I be? Fair and square, but I gave it my best shot. That’s how well I could do it.” Attitude is helpful and it doesn’t matter if you’re short or tall or they’re small. I’ll bring back the loneliness a little bit. People see me show up and flying Squadron, saying, “I don’t know anybody like you. My mother is not like you. My sister is not like you. How can you possibly be doing this thing?”

If your attitude is we want to do this thing and everybody helps, then you can get over that pretty fast. I’ll leave the last thing. Kansas is the home state of the McConnell Air Force Base, where I was a wing commander when I had the boys. I was up all night anyway. There's no sleeping for me as a wing commander. It is between the calls from the command post and the boys.

That's how it was, but on a cold winter night in Kansas when it was zero temperatures and high winds, we're trying to launch a bunch of planes, like twenty planes. Everyone on the flight line wore Gore-Tex gloves. We had no idea who anybody was because we were blobs of waterproof material, pushing pallets and trying to refuel things. When everything was said and done and the planes were all launched, I went around, as the commander does, to talk with people, thank them, and check on them, having no idea what they looked like.

As they pulled off their balaclavas, hoods, and everything, you could start to see their ranks, faces, ethnicity, men and women, tall and short, everything, and I was so moved. I was moved daily, but I was moved in moments like that to say, “Isn't it wonderful that we were who we were? We went out and did what we had to do and we value each other.” To me, that's exciting. That fills my tank. I tell people now I’m a mom. You should get your sleep. Make sure you eat right. Take care of your joints and stuff like that. There's this other feeling that's inspiring and hopefully, you can foster that in others.

You said, “Fill the tank,” and you're right. There was nothing like the military as far as we were all in it together and none of it mattered. As you said, it’s not the rank or anything all bundled up or you're in Kenmore Fair. You can't even tell, but we were the collective. It’s a diverse group but the ultimate unified mission. Michelle, you brought up probably one of my top five books, Man’s Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl. If you want to learn about resiliency and adaptive capacity, I tell people who are complaining, read that book and then you come back and talk to me. They never come back and complain. It’s so profound.

That's a heavy, dark topic. If you read it, it's full of joy. It’s not to trivialize anything.

He didn't trivialize it, but that's profound. You covered abandonment and I love that. Primarily, as you're climbing up, you got to let go of the ego. You got to be okay with abandoning some of these things that may have worked for you as an individual contributor or a commander at a flight level where you had a smaller group. Remember, it’s less and less of the outcome.

The only outcome of you as a commander is what the individual troops do. You have to start managing the troops versus managing the processes, the sorties, the non-mission capable rates, or all that other stuff. Is there anything else on abandonment you want to talk about? I thought that was so rich to share with our audience.

It was a one-on-one level when I was a co-pilot in C-141. I was a little older than other co-pilots. I was a little more senior. I was the first lieutenant. Now I’m a second lieutenant because I’ve gone to graduate school at Oxford and then was fine. We had Lieutenant Colonels who've flown in Vietnam. He’s a gruff guy. Some who had flown the plane so long, even though we were supposed to be dutiful students of the tech orders, they'd quit reading the tech orders because they knew how to fly it and the co-pilots would do the knob work for them.

There's this one gruff lieutenant colonel. He's a wonderful person. We respect the heck out of him, but he scared all the co-pilots. My husband had flown with him too. He said to me once, “Johnson, I make the co-pilots cry and that's the guys, but I don't mess with you.” I didn't know what that meant exactly. One time, he and I were on a check ride. The flight examiner was sitting right behind the console, watching everything we did.

For our audience, a check ride is an evaluation ride. She's getting graded on proficiency.

Also, how we ran the checklist and how we ran the mission. He and I were on it. It’s an evaluation like you're driving in high school, but times 1,000. I noticed that in the left seats where the aircraft commander sits, his navigation select panel wasn't right with the checklist. Safety first, but also contending with culture. You don't touch each other switches as a cultural thing about reaching across somebody, especially somebody imposing like him. I reached my hand over in front of the switch that needed to be corrected and said, “I’ll set your knob select panel up for the takeoff check,” then I waited.

I didn't touch it, but I waited. I wanted to show respect. I didn't know what he'd do and he said, “Thanks, Co.” I hit the button, we did the flight, and everything went on. I’ve actually said that at a commencement speech at Niagara University a couple of years ago, “I know it seems weird to say something like that. Thanks, Co. So what?” What he did was courageous in a way. He let me help him. It not only helped us do the mission safely and get to see the check right and everything, but it also modeled for me to let go.

Later, when I was on missions and was tired in the middle of the night in Bahrain or someplace, I did the before-takeoff checklist. I say to the crew, “We've all been awake for 36 hours now, so we need to help each other. If you see something, you speak up because we're all tired and we've got to get this right. If you help me succeed, I’ll help you succeed.” I said that attitude. Part of what helped me do that. It’s letting go of my ego or letting go of the fear of although things she's weak.

Michelle, you were telling the story about when you got with your check pilot and you had the courage to let him know, “I’m going to touch the switches,” and then you were referring to some things that happen when people don't feel in other cultures that they are free to express what's going on.

Sometimes, it's grouped dynamics, leadership, and culture. We used to talk about crew resource management because, on a big airplane, you have teams of 4 to 20 people. The C-5 fighter crews are big and 141. We had to have at least four people, but when you're working in a work environment, being able to collaborate means listening to each other and letting go of your own protectiveness or personal power. It's important in a plane. Someone is going to get hurt if the chief pilot, the aircraft Commander, or the pilot in charge doesn't listen or take input. As I’ve said, there have been accidents and some came from national cultures of hierarchy.

Being able to collaborate means listening to each other and letting go of your own protectiveness or personal power.

The leading person is like, “I’m the boss. I don't have to listen to you.” It's literally dangerous, but even if it's not in an airplane, in general, you're not hearing the totality of what’s going on. You're not being informed if you're not listening and taking input from people around you. Ultimately, a leader has to decide and may not follow exactly what those inputs are. That's part of the aloneness. Someone’s got to decide, but listening empowers a team to know that they'll be heard. You may not agree, but they'll be heard and it's an important lesson.

You hit on the importance of being courageous enough to manage up. A lot of times, here you are managing down or managing lateral but to help your boss or your leader to become the best that they can. As you said, unless it's illegal, immoral, unethical, or unsafe, you are being heard. For the leaders out there, you have to be courageous enough to make the call and say, “I know, but we need to look at this.” The last thing my dad talked about was vision.

We hear about these visionaries. Michelle, we have our heroes in the military who were sheer, brilliant tacticians, motivators, and all the greats. My dad would always tell me, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it.” It’s this blue-sky thing but also this very tactical strategic thing. How do you hone your vision, especially now that you're in the next stage of your life? I know the military would often feed you your vision, but how do you inspire that in other people?

It's an important notion. You don't have to be a genius philosopher to have a vision. It's what needs to be done, as you said. Maybe even asking the question of, “We're doing this thing. So what?” What's going to happen on the other side of this? Some of it is strategic planning. What are the opportunities and what are the risks? That is not a military function. It's a business function, I would think. Even the American College of Financial Services Board talked to us about financial risk, what are the risks with personnel, and what's going to happen next. To my point, we caught it with the head of referees for the NBA when I suggested in-season training, not just in the summer. That seemed brilliant and visionary to him.

It seemed obvious to me. If I thought of that, what do we miss that someone else might think of it? To your point of managing up, as a senior officer or a general officer, I wasn't always the most senior. I was a 2 or 3-star, but there are always four stars and civilian leaders. To be brave enough to challenge the status quo or tell them the truth or the bad news sometimes is eye-opening. Do it privately and give them some grace, a way out, or a graceful exit. We can fix it if you make this phone call or this is what needs to be done, but to see ahead and assess, that's part of a vision as well. It has to do with listening and learning. In this day and age, people don't always want hard-copy books. My husband and I are still of a generation that values the tactile feel of a book.

I’m aggressive with books. I deface them out of love. I write in them and I tear their pages, but I’m willing to learn. To my earlier point about how we get here as an organization or as a group and what we need to do next, the best part of a vision is a narrative. What's our story? Maybe that's a more palatable way for us to think about what's our narrative. For me, a lot of veterans and other people are at a point in life where you have more discretion about your time. What brings meaning? Not as profound as Viktor Frankl with that sense of that meaning, but in the sense of what do I know that might help another group, whether it's with corporate memory or another perspective as a board member now.

Board members are not supposed to partake in the everyday operations of an enterprise, but I always think, “Have I asked a challenging question? Have I thought of another angle that they might not have thought of?” You're on the advisory board for the Veteran Center, so you may think of that as well. It’s like, “If I asked a good question that they might not have thought of or another angle and to be supportive in a way that's constructive.” It isn't always positive cheerleading. It's sometimes saying, “There may be some pitfalls on that one. You might want to consider what could happen from practical experience and also from studying.”

You brought that up earlier. We always have something to offer, no matter if it’s taking off the uniform but the way we think. What I like about people in the military is we always are a worst-case scenario. We're always contingency planners and we're also after-actions people. That's the other thing where you talked about we train it in-season and out of season and that's not intuitively obvious. It's interesting that you said that because I can remember sitting on some boards, when something would go wrong, not military things, they're like, “What's next?”

I’m like, “What happened here? After the access report, no behaviors change until a lesson has been learned,” and we tweak something. I love that you said that in a constructive way. That's the point of leadership. Not an echo chamber but to ask the tough questions or the great critical thinking skills because we have seen a lot and blended a lot about what could possibly go right. You can't go into war thing and everything is going to go right. You think everything is going to go wrong and reverse engineer from that.

Tell that story. It is what it is and don't be afraid. Too many people use the word fear and I’m afraid. I was always thankful. I didn't have to worry in the main about our boys going to the shopping center and being bombed. We live in a violent world and things can happen randomly but we live in a pretty safe environment.

We don't have the day-to-day risk like a lot of people have or the food insecurity that a lot of people have and those things so I count my blessings. What are we afraid of? What do we have to be afraid of to say it is what it is and try to persuade people? That's the other thing. With vision, you want to do that thing that you see something that is different. I go back to what I said before.

They may not even hear you when you say, “I disagree with that.” They may not hear you literally the first couple of times. I really think this is a thing and try to be persuasive that way. After working at the White House for two years, I carried the nuclear codes for President Bush and President Clinton. If you do a lot of advance work, you have to plan ahead.

Here's what will happen in the worst case that maintains connectivity with the Commander in Chief in the command authority. You had to think of every possible contingency: medical, communication, physical, other 25th amendment, and nuclear things. Mostly, bad things didn't happen, but in order to get senior civilians to do what I needed to do, I had to persuade them.

I had no power over them. I was a major, but you have to persuade people to get things done. People have written about political powers. It’s a power of persuasion. You're moving people. I did that to the extent that when I went back to Travis Air Force Base after that assignment, one of the sergeants said, “You could tell us what to do. You don't have to persuade.” I said, “Okay. Point well taken.” I'll tell you on those few transactional things, but it’s inspiring things and trying to do new things for an enterprise to have a vision of what happens next. You need to say why and what will be in it for you. What will your role be in it?

The vision isn't, “We're going to get to that mountain,” it's, “How are you going to help us get to the mountain? How am I going to help you get to the mountain? How are we going to do that together?” We are obviously great communicators, but that's not a value thing in military service. If you look at Myers-Briggs personalities, I’m an ENTJ, so I think I can do the math. I was an Operations Research undergrad. It's like an Engineering minor at the Service Academy. Both of us were, but I tend to be an extrovert who thinks intuitively, which isn't softer. It's in macro and I’m a thinker and dredger. We can go do that, but not everybody can see it if they're a linear thinker or more sensory or an engineer. They want to know what happens and what step is next.

Understanding myself and how I’m thinking, I’m open that way and engineer like my husband. He is a linear engineer. There are times we bump. There are many reasons why spouses bump. One of the reasons we do is that we're wired differently. It's very complementary and it's great overall. When you're working with people who are literal, this idea of a vision might seem a little too open-ended and you need to help them understand what happens next, what's in it for them, and what our role is together. They may not automatically see their role in the group and laying it out in a narrative again is helpful.

I love that you described the vision as persuasion and moving people because otherwise, it's your thing. Vision is shared with them. You hit on all the books I’ve read. Say the number one question anybody has on their mind is What’s In It For Me? Why too? We have to set the why, but in the how, as far as practical, the management, or the 30,000, what's in it for me? I get the why, but that’s the reason why expectation is a success. I have to see value in it, which means, what's in it for me? I love that you talked about it. Some people are like, “You don't have to woo-woo me.” I put my task hat on as you do and go, “Here are the orders.” “Okay, fine.”

I literally did that in the Squadron because they thought I was too nice sometimes. I had a black hat. I would put a black build cap on. I don't smoke, but I had a cigar and I get out and say, “This is me being directive,” and we'd laugh about it. That was also part of building the collegiality of what we're doing. I haven’t read Daniel Pink's works, but he has a book called Drive, which is the most realistic about not what's in it for me but calling it as it is about understanding the politics of a dynamic. Politics are human beings together.

It's not like political parties. It's Aristotle. We're political animals because we live with other people. Understanding who the informal leaders are, who the formal leaders are, and how to navigate that is part of persuasion, leading, and pursuing a vision because those can be helpers, so they can be obstacles. The informal leaders may have more power than the formal leaders, weirdly. You can harness into that but you can't pretend it doesn't exist. It's only your own idea. Again, this is a team sport.

Cadet Wing Commander: Understanding who the informal leaders are, who the formal leaders are, and how to navigate that is part of persuasion, leading, and pursuing a vision.

You hit the nail on the head when you talk about politicking well. For those of you who are tuning in and want to get your CLF, we have a whole class on one of our modules about networking and managing in politicking well. As you said, anybody that has survived in one of the biggest bureaucracies of all time, I eat the military as long as you have, you're a great politicker. We have this politics and it's sucking up. It's kissing butt. It's hard as it is. It's networking. It's coming together because there's a certain amount of resources and it's a win-win, so we have this negative notation. I love that you could not have done what you did without getting fed up.

There are a million other pasts you could have taken, Michelle, but you stayed on the one because you knew how to be politicking well and not in a derogatory, sell-your-soul, or cronyism-type sense. I’m glad you brought that up because we may have some audience out there that are like, “I don't know. Should I stay or should I go?” I always tell them, “Do you want to fall into your sword or do you need to open up your mind and spirit about politicking well?”

We're all in this together and we have to find a way forward together. Is this a nuisance or an idiosyncrasy or is this a point of order that is against your conviction? Most of the time, it's something that annoys us. I’m like, “Do you want to throw it all away for that or do you want to learn to politic well?”

To your point, you're going to have, in a career, a good boss, bad bosses, good teams, or bad teams. The moments when it's clicking when you're on that championship team and it feels right, those don't last forever because somebody leaves or something changes, but those are great moments. One of the reasons I endured this eclectic journey was that I could see the patterns. It was eclectic enough that you start seeing the patterns across organizations. That's why people write all those management leadership books because human beings and organizations act about the same.

Cadet Wing Commander: That's why people write all those management leadership books because human beings and organizations act about the same.

It's different language, uniforms, and hierarchies in a way, but politicking to me was saying if we need to bring some people together or say the Pentagon with different entities with different equities to defend, try to understand the equities of the others at the table. Plan ahead. Not only have allies at the table but try to think 2 or 3 steps out.

This literally happened to me. There was a senior civilian who had been military and there's some baggage with that. It was a real obstacle working when I was on the joint staff at the Pentagon on cyber policy and I set up to him and said, “This is the equity I need to represent right now respectfully because this is the truth. I have to hold that.” I immediately went back. I was a one-star general and I talked to my three-star general.

I said, “You may get a phone call from somebody because I had to stand up to them and they are far senior to me.” He goes, “He already called me. You were doing the right thing. You were doing what you had to do.” That's one thing, but to have a successful policy, a lot of times, I would try to anticipate that when this person wants to work against me, they're going to go to the next level.

If I’ve already greased the works to the next level by informing them, not paying them off or nothing underhanded but saying, “This is part of the story for you to know. When the other person came with their side, I’d wind up getting support, usually because I did my homework. I was prepared and pretty factually correct and be able to move forward.”

It became winning and it worked in NATO across 28 allies then. Now we're up to 31 in NATO, but at that time, it was 28 plus 22 partner Nations for Afghanistan. There are 50 nations around. It’s understanding the organization around you and not your own narrow slice of it. Where do I fit in? People do social mapping for other reasons to think who would be on board, who would be antis in this initiative, and understand that. Who are you going to have to persuade to come forward? Who are you going to have to come on board? Not in an underhanded way, but with persuasion, facts and research, and persistence. I will say persistence helps.

That’s why you pay the price of leadership because everybody would be doing it if it was easy. Coming across against these naysayers, your example is managing up well and politicking well. It’s excellent. Thank you for sharing that. I was hoping you get into that and you said why you endured. I love it because everybody has their own reasons for it. That’s fascinating, Michelle. We did loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. While I got you on the line, is there anything else, from a leadership perspective, that you would like to share with our audience about how to triumphantly and tenaciously pay the price of leadership?

I’ll share a vignette. I’m not sure exactly who it’s attributed to. I’m told Iyanla Vanzant has said it and other people, but it’s something that I’ve used in remarks. Also, it’s a reminder for me. Its rich alludes to fear. The saying is, “When we come to the end of all the light that we know and are about to step off into the darkness, faith is knowing that 1 of 2 things is going to happen. They’ll either be something solid in the darkness for us to stand on or we’ll learn how to fly.”

To me, this is like not being afraid to explore something different. It’s 1977 and 18-year-old me left Spencer, Iowa, to want to see what the big world was like. I have no clue, no videos on a website, no internet, no family experience in the military or with higher ed, except for my brother, who went to medical school, but he's far older than me.

It was a different time when all the money we had, which wasn't much, went for him, and my sister and I were on our own to try it, go out, step into the darkness, and go, “Solid. It’s not as scary as I thought it was going to be.” I need to learn something new to survive in this way and try something new. It may be more fulfilling.

In my case, it was in the big world. There were lows. They don't write that in your bio. Nobody writes in your bio the rough days and the things when you met with someone who was a curmudgeon or worse, who tried to undermine you or things didn't go well. They don't write that down in your bio. It's part of the journey and makes you appreciate when things click, when you do move a policy through, or when you can communicate with somebody.

I almost said it in SACEUR, the Supreme Allied Commander Forces Europe, when I was at NATO. He promised the Russians, who had a bigger contingent in Brussels, that NATO did because they were very suspicious of NATO because NATO was formed to defend against them. He wanted to keep them informed during the conflict in Afghanistan because of their fear of opium, the drug trade, and terrorism coming over the border. Meanwhile, they gave us over-flight and train track access or railroad access from the Baltics all the way to Kazakhstan over Russian airspace and ground space.

We wanted to communicate with them and he sent me to Moscow one summer with a team with the German Lieutenant Colonel, a British Colonel, and a US colonel. A Norwegian Admiral was in Moscow to brief the device director, the vice chairman of their general staff, and their four-star. They were going to have me talk to a two-star, but when I showed up, the four-star showed up, so I had to adapt. Over a long briefing table, standing over a map and a long lunch, we went and did our work and went back. To me, that was a capstone professional experience to represent the equities of my nation in the halls of the Kremlin.

They’ve been our foe in so many ways and so many episodes and to know my business enough to be able to come through and to keep my team together. It was a very emotional experience for the German officer. Can you imagine in paintings in the Kremlin of General Zuckoff, who's the Russian General Montgomery from Britain and Eisenhower from the US? Obviously, Germany was the enemy then and my German colleague felt it. It was a lonely, moving time for him. That was a real capstone experience. In the life journey, you pick up along the way.

I didn't know this when I was a lieutenant. I don't know if I could have done it when I was a lieutenant, but you learn along the way. To be willing to step into the darkness with faith or confidence or whatever your belief system is that supports you. To be able to go out alone in the dark with people who may never want to be leaders. Not everybody wants to and that's okay too, but we need to be good teammates because we're going and we need you to come with us.  

Not everybody wants to be a four-star general. Some people want to launch and recover and be a crew dog or whatever, but I love that. Michelle, you have certainly paid the price of leadership and continue to do so. Thank you for sharing all this wisdom. I can't wait to listen. If I have no scribbled everywhere, I have to get it organized. Michelle, if people want to connect with you or learn more about you, what's the best way that they can reach out to you?

I have a very small footprint on LinkedIn. I’m there, but I’m at the point in life where if you Google Lieutenant General Michelle Johnson, you could see my official Air Force bio in there. People have found speeches have done. I talked at the National Press Club when I was superintendent. I’ve had some hard interviews. I’ve had some fun ones where you can tell all the good news. I’ve had a tough one too. I exist out there. There are a lot of Michelle Johnson, but not as many Lieutenant Michelle Johnson.

Michelle Johnson sends her farewell. Please be sure and check out Lieutenant General Retired Michelle Johnson, a Trailblazer. I hope you enjoyed everything she shared with you about what it takes to paying the price of leadership. Remember, you will be the same person in the future that you are now, except for two things. The people you meet and the books you read. I hope you heard us talk about a lot of tremendous books.

You met a tremendous person and I want to thank you for paying the price of leadership. If you like what you read, please hit the subscribe button, leave us the honor of a five-star review, and share with your friends who are trying to live a triumphantly tremendous life as well. Thanks so much to all of you for paying the price of leadership. Have a tremendous rest of your day.

Important Links

• Retired Lieutenant General Michelle Johnson – LinkedIn

• Man’s Search For Meaning

• Adaptive Leadership

• Drive

About Michelle Johnson

Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Michelle Johnson class of ‘81 USAFA was the first female cadet to be named Cadet Wing commander and later became the first female officer to serve as Air Force Academy superintendent (#19).

She was also inducted into the inaugural class of the Air Force Academy Athletic Hall of Fame and a Rhodes Scholar. While in uniform she served as the AF Aide to the President, an Air Force Squadron, Group & Wing Commander; NATO/SHAPE Deputy Chief of Staff Intel & Operations; NBA Senior VP head of Referee Operations. Her husband is John Hargreaves, a retired USAF pilot; happy parents of 20-year-old twin sons.

Episode 177 - Matt Moger - Leaders on Leadership

Leadership's true currency lies not in titles, but in the priceless relationships we nurture along the way. This episode features a remarkable guest, Matthew Moger, to discuss the fascinating world of relational real estate. Matthew's book, "The Book on Relational Real Estate," is more than a guide; it's an eye-opener to the human side of real estate. More than that, Matthew also touches on the surprising twists and turns of leadership, emphasizing the power of humility and relationships. Join us in exploring how leadership and real estate intersect and how these principles can shape your path, both personally and professionally. Tune in now.

www.m5homes.com

https://www.amazon.com/Relational-Real-Estate-Matt-Moger/dp/B0C2RM8Z7M

—-

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Matt Moger - Leaders on Leadership

We pull back the curtain on leadership and talk with leaders of all ages and stages about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. I have a very special guest in a very special setting. We're going to talk about that. His name is Matt Moger. Let me tell you a little bit about Matt. Matt and his high school sweetheart Ashley started a real estate investing company in one of the worst recessions in US history. That's always the best time to start a business. They have two lovely daughters and the whole family enjoys music and traveling.

Matt's purpose is to develop relationships through business and personal interactions every day. Those of you who tuned in and were in my SPARK course know the name Kevin McCarthy. Those of you who have bought his little booklet, Tough Shift always know Kevin McCarthy with the two-word purpose. Tough Shift.

Matt was connecting with Kevin and then he saw that Matt had a Life Is Tremendous book. We'll tell you some more things. That's how Matt and I connected. I invited Matt to be on our show. We're going to talk about his real estate book. Also, Matt shared with me some things about my father and his interaction when Kevin saw his Life Is Tremendous on the bookshelf. Matt, we go way back. We just haven't met each other yet.

I was nineteen years old and I got to meet your father in person just for a few hours. It was one of the most impactful evenings full of fun and all sorts of things. A friend of mine who was also there reminded me that one of your siblings did this long Shakespearean quote of some sort in the library at your parents' house.

That may have been Jeff. Was he quoting scripture?

Maybe. It's hard to tie all this together so long ago. He made us put on silly hats and he was loving life and it was pure fun. We were being goofy.

Charles and the 3 therapies, 1 of his therapies is music. Charles was very musical. He knew four chords, but he could play any instrument. He played the trombone, the banjo, the piano, the guitar, and the trumpet. It was unbelievable. He was saying, “Let's have another cup of coffee and another piece of pie.” Those were in the house. It doesn’t matter if you sing one of them all because of this book, Life is Tremendous. You read that as a young person.

It is one of my prized possessions. I have the old-school leather-bound burgundy one and it's on my bookshelf. I try to revisit it every year or two.

The reason we're here too is when I connected with Matt through Kevin and knew about my father's connection. Matt, who lives in North Carolina said, “Could we do this in person?” I'm like, “That's cool because we have a tremendous library.” That's how I knew I was in love. I looked at my husband's, my betrothed’s, library books and I said, “That's a keeper.” We are now the Jones Wheeler Library on leather sofas with a candle and books talking about leadership. It doesn't get any better than this.

John Burgundy will be prime.

We are here to talk about this little gem, The Price of Leadership. For those of you who have read Life is Tremendous, my father also talks about a lot of entails leadership. One of the things he talked about in The Price of Leadership is that you're going to have to be paying a price, otherwise, you're going to be a leader in name only.

Matt, what we love about the show is we get to talk to people and hear about the stories of what it took them to pay the price. The first price my dad talked about was loneliness. We've all heard that it's lonely at the top. Jesus was alone a lot of the time. Can you unpack what loneliness has meant to you as a leader and maybe when you were in a season of loneliness, then what you would recommend to our audience?

At different stages in life and business, especially as an entrepreneur, there are versions of loneliness. I remember early on doing things that other people were not doing or willing to do. That, in and of itself, felt like you were on an island. I can remember specifically, and I might be crossing over into some of the other ones as well.

At different stages in life and business, especially as an entrepreneur, there are versions of loneliness.

That's okay because they're all interconnected.

I remember specific times when things had to work out so perfectly. It was incredibly stressful so much so that I feel this is a little embarrassing, but I would lay on the floor and pray. If this is what I was supposed to be doing, God would work it out somehow. We want to think that we're strong and we bootstrapped our way to where we are now but we've all had help, whether it be just encouragement, actual financial help, or just someone that came along to assist us in our work. That's very lonely.

Not to stay too long, but sometimes we've done things to create freedom for ourselves. Most people don't have that freedom. It's a catch-22 because you were happy that you created this freedom for yourself and your family. It's a little lonely because everybody else is punching the clock. They're going to work from 9:00 to 5:00. “Do you want to grab lunch?” “I can't. I'm working.” You have to find those people that are also in your stage. I'm almost 40. Sometimes I eat breakfast with a bunch of retirees at a local diner and I enjoy their company as well, but they're not necessarily peers of mine. A little bit on an island sometimes.

It’s interesting that you brought that sense of loneliness up, the entrepreneurial loneliness. You do get the freedom, but like you said, not a lot of other people. I can remember when we got married, we got married on a Monday and people were like, “Why'd you pick that?” I'm like, “We're all entrepreneurs. We can get married any day of the week.” It's interesting for people out there. A lot of our audience is at the stage of their life where they're making the transition to an entrepreneurial journey and it's phenomenal. It's a freedom that you pay the price to do.

It's great. You can't lament about your same work struggles when you say, “This is the worst.” People don't talk only about negatives.

Charles would always say that you can work for somebody else or you can work for yourself. Those are your choices. As long as you work for somebody else, you're going to hit that wall for aspirations. The goal is we all want the freedom to serve in our best capacity. You can only do that when you're the boss. You can do it in other areas.

I did it for many years with somebody else but always had that longing to break out and do my own thing. You have that lesson. For our audience out there, a lot of you are making the transition. Hang in there because people look at you and say, “Are you sure you want to do this?” I'm like, “I know, but I'll take the entrepreneurial stress over the bureaucratic stress any day.”

I do think people think you are different, which is what we like, but at the same time, it's different.

We want to be different. I lived in Austin. Keep Austin here. Keep Tracey weird. We're not like anybody else. That's loneliness. The next topic you talked about is weariness. You started this company in the midst of when the bottom was tanking out. I remember getting off the plane and coming home when I was working in St. Louis and just seeing the market had collapsed and thinking, “Dear Lord, I've got a house in the market. I'm coming back to run the business. Why am I choosing to be an entrepreneur in this horrific timeframe?” Weariness and you've got family and raising kids. Matt, how do you stay tip-top form?

I do my best. A lot of times, this is going to sound oversimplified. I like to nap.

My Jones siblings are big into napping. I can't believe you said that. That's funny.

If I'm feeling overwhelmed and stressed, it's odd. You can let your mind wander towards the negative and you can start to feel it physically. Sometimes I just need to put the phone away. Let me close my eyes for half an hour. If it goes past half an hour, then it's no good. Set a quick timer.

When you let your mind wander towards the negative, you can start to feel it physically.

You could get a fifteen-minute nap. That was perfect.

I'm a big golfer. I love to play golf a few times a week. We live on a golf course. That's another way that I de-stress. Although golf can cause stress in a different kind sometimes. Those two things and faith, but that's such an easy cliché answer for a believer. There's a lot of praying in there. Reading is another big one because it shifts your focus from the weary side of just focusing on why is this happening. Why wouldn't this person do this? Why am I the only one?

It's a very internal selfish look and picking up a book that we like to read and having a self-help book problem. Picking one of those up turns it into an actionable step. Let's get our heads out of the sand here. Once you take one step forward, it's easy to take the next one. I know a lot of these things are repeats of what a lot of people say, but it's true. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Truth is timeless. What worked for Adam and Eve, everybody's dealt with it. I love that you talk about weariness. A lot of it is good weariness, but then there's a lot of self-imposed weariness. That self-focus, when you get inside yourself, that's the beginning of the spiral down. A book will help you stop, get off yourself, and look at something else. That's bibliotherapy. Books are wonderful therapy. I'm glad you brought that up. Loneliness, weariness, and abandonment.

We hear about fear of abandonment. We hear about abandoning animals until rescue, that's never good. Dad talked about it as we need to stop thinking about what we like and want to think about. More about what we ought to need to think about. We abandon what's easy, our comfort zone, and the things that are not the highest and truest value. Be it a bad habit, just watching Netflix for five hours a day unless you earn that. We get hyperfocused. I'm sure all entrepreneurs like new ideas. We could do 100 businesses a day. How do you stay focused on what's next?

I had a mentor in the real estate space specifically that called it What's On Your Stop Doing List? That was always a challenge for me. A lot of it's centered around negative thinking, or as you and Charlie would say, it's thinking that taking a hit. That's on the need-to-abandon list. It creeps in so subtly that you don't realize that you're focused on it because a text message comes in from a tenant and it's negative and spirals real quick. It can happen quickly.

Interestingly, when you talk about building relationships, which is solely my focus, I've gotten to a point where my bills are paid, can I focus on something at a more 30,000-foot view? That is the relationship behind all of these. It's very difficult when you're preaching and building relationships to abandon relationships on purpose. It seems so backward. I feel like when I'm talking about this, certain people come to mind, and maybe as you're hearing it, someone comes to mind with whom you need to release yourself. I saw your Boundaries book by Henry Cloud. I read that.

It's still something I'm constantly working on. Some relationships are very damaging to your goal, to even just your general psyche. That's hard for me because I'm like, “I don't want this to be failing because of me.” At the same time, some people are living up. That's a tough one to abandon someone on purpose. You're not sure that if you verbalize the whole thing, if you spelled it out for that person, it probably would fall on deaf ears. You want to remain impactful and keep that bridge there. It's hard sometimes to release those relationships. That is something that about often and it makes me sad a little bit.

It's so sad. Not everybody has the ears to hear. Some people, no matter what, have scales on their eyes, they don't have the ears to hear, and their hearts are hard. Until they make that choice, they have to get to that space. My father told me, “Tracey, you're responsible to people, not for people. As long as you give them truth and love, sometimes you're going to have to because nothing's going to change. You have other things you have to do, a higher calling.”

I know we were talking about abandoning certain thoughts and things that would be helpful for us, but sometimes it is a person. That's a heavy one.

Work is fun. It was just me on this earth with my dogs, my books, and my Bible. It’s the Millennial Kingdom. Charles and I say my problem isn't keeping myself motivated. My problem is keeping other people from being demotivated. He was such a realist and he loved people. He also understood I love people, but people.

I feel that way too.

Loneliness, weariness, and abandonment, because you're in the relationship business, that would be what you're dialing in even if it's maybe a client that is super highly needy. I do the same thing. Everything we do, whether you're publishing with me or hiring me, should be fun and joyful. It's challenging, but if it's not, some things were not meant to be you in capacity.

We've all had a business relationship that we've had to savor. That's it. The people you want to spend your time with should be effortless. It should be easy. You do have to work at it. Sometimes you have family members but no one's thinking about anyone specific. You're in a relationship whether you like it or not.

The people you want to spend your time with your business should be effortless. It should be easy.

Born into it. You got it. Loneliness, awareness, and abandonment. The last topic you talked about was vision. We know in Proverbs, it's a biblical perspective of, “Where there is no vision, people perish.” Growing up, your father was a minister, so we grew up around a lot of people who were very godly, wise, and discerning. I always thought, “They're just born like that.”

My dad would always tell me, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done and doing it.” I can have a vision too. It brought it down to me versus looking at a Henry Cloud or Zig Ziglar. Everybody has their vision. How do you hone your vision, especially the market? Talk about the best and worst years. How do you keep a vision crafting?

That's a million-dollar question. I don't know if this is the time to talk about what happens when you do what you set out to do. That's where you feel like, “I had this vision. I had this purpose.” I've heard you talk about that when you were in the military and then changed careers. You had this in childhood and that's what he was talking about. He had to transition into an entrepreneur. He had a couple of years of what he felt were floundering. I went through that work for nine years towards a goal.

It was a several-pronged goal, but one of them was to be out of debt except for things attached to real estate. That felt a huge weight off my shoulders. One was to have the freedom to play golf and to do things while my children were at school. That all seemed so great, but I felt so empty. That is not how I envisioned that. That vision was, you're going to feel just the way that the world is off your shoulders and now you can keep moving forward. That's when I had to surround myself with other like-minded individuals. That helps continue to craft a vision and focus.

We've talked about how I may or may not have an attention deficit problem or gift, let's call it. Shiny object syndrome, I could make money in real estate doing this and this. I have lots of friends who are agents and they make their living doing that. That was not my path. Once I got focused, I made such giant strides.

The vision now is the living is at least taken care of for now. We continue to look at the market as it goes up and down. It seems to be at its all-time high. That leaves less room for my deals, but at the same time, there are still things out there. There are still people that need help. If we start to focus and craft a vision centered around people and relationships, it's weird how everything falls into place.

Leadership: If we start to focus and craft a vision centered around people in relationships, it's weird how everything kind of awesome points you.

The market would be hot, the market would be cold, but there will always be people in need, looking for somebody to be their miracle or to help them.

It's very encouraging to be able to continue to plot forward in different markets. I see friends that have come in hot, they've done well, and I'm excited for them. All of a sudden, they've checked out, they're selling all their things, and they're getting another job. Clearly, that was not their end goal on their purpose, or they were maybe a little bit misguided.

That's where I feel like surrounding myself with folks like yourself who are constantly reminding me, “Matt, you're over here a little bit. Let's pull that in.” That's so powerful. If I'm around folks who are just yes people, that's not going to happen. If I'm around negative Nancies, that's not going to happen. No offense to anyone named Nancy. It’s just negative personalities. Surrounding ourselves with good people helps keep that vision focused.

People think once you have the vision, but then it’s like flying. You get turbulence, you’ve got to divert, or something in life happens. A vision is a living, moving thing that you have to keep doing. Now when you say you're a like-minded individual, do you have a group, everybody knows about the power of mastermind groups, and having that cord. A cord of three strands is not easily broken. Do you have a particular group of people in the business or do you meet with Vistage or Convene? How do you have a coach?

I have had coaches in the past. Entrepreneurship is different seemingly. Each business is different. I know there are principles around it, but there are few people in my life who understand what's going on. One of my great buddies from college is a developer down in the Greenville, South Carolina area. We stay connected.

Another friend of mine drives a monster truck for a living. He goes on those big tours with Monster Jam and flies with a 12,000-pound machine, 30 feet in the air. He's written a book about these very topics and how to stay focused. There are things that we've developed our mastermind. We're working on formalizing it and taking trips and things of that nature and bringing our families as a good way to remain focused. We're all believers. That's very big as well. My answer is no and yes, we're building one.

I can relate and mine's more informal like yours. The good news is it depends on where you're at. As you said, I've worked for Fortune 100 companies and I'm a solopreneur and everything in between. It depends. Your group should match the challenges. Are you going to be dealing with unions or lawsuits or just you honing your focus? As you said, value congruence. You want to make sure you're with people who have a shared world, which is our base. It's important once you get that value congruence and that synergy.

That's a great point for our entrepreneurs, especially if you're transitioning out of something bigger like Major General Donald Brosky talked about. In the military, it was a unique comradery. When you come out of that and we're not in the club in uniform together anymore, tell war stories, and work it all out, I'm just Joe civilian now. You have to remain based on where you are and your group. You made a great point illustrating that.

We've heard often you are in the top five people that you hang around.

Jim Rohn said that.

I've consistently tried to raise the bar, if that makes sense, without leaving folks and friends behind. Where are the people doing what I want to do? Your dad said that in his book. Don't you believe in talking things over? Yes, I do. I believe in talking things over with people who have done what I want to do. One of the ways I can do a lot of that by through comradery and the golf community, people who play golf often have disposable income.

Leadership: Believe in talking things over people who have done what you want to do.

That's initially why we moved into our area which is a golf community and country club. I'm not sure how it sounds elitist, but I've worked my way up there. I didn't do anything. It wasn't just how I was born. Not that it matters. You use all the advantages that have been given. You use that as a springboarding.

Righteous use as well.

I'm trying to be a good steward so that I can get my head out of the clouds and find some needs in there. That's an easy thing to say and it's harder to do when you're staring at your checkbook. That is a constant reminder too. I like to surround myself with generous friends as well. It's a moving target and a work in progress. I haven't figured it out, but I'm trying.

I'm so glad you brought that up. A lot of people get an entrepreneurial space because we want to wait for money so we can bless others with it. You better get used to writing from your own business. It happened to Dad even though he was in the top 25. It's happened to me. I'm like, “Lord, I want some so I can shovel it out and give it away.” It is that beautiful yearning, but also the realization that it's the parable of the talents. We're going to work to invest what God's given us. It's up to Him what comes in and it's all His anyway. It takes some stress out of it a little bit.

It can test your faith because there are plenty of times where I've said, “I don't have this to give. Did I prioritize it?” It's where it was at.

What you value is what you love. That’s excellent.

As a landlord, we say people buy what they want and beg for what they need. Sometimes it's true.

People buy what they want and beg for what they need.

You don't need to be spending money on this stuff. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. What do you need? What do you want?

That's our distinction. When you didn't have, now you have, what are you going to prioritize?

Matt, thank you. We covered loneliness, weariness abandonment, and vision. Anything else you'd like to talk about? I want to hear about that from a leadership perspective that you'd like to share with our audience, about paying the Price of Leadership. Something else you heard from Life is Tremendous you want to share?

I never quite understand leaders who have an air about them that does not include humbleness. Some of the most gracious, powerful leaders that I've ever met have been some of the most down-to-earth humble folks that I've ever met. It's easy when you feel like you've done the thing to not say, “I've done the thing. Look at this.” I feel like humility has to play a part in it because anyone who's truly a leader knows that they have a mentor. A lot of what they've learned is through mistakes. I talk about that at the beginning of this. I have a whole chapter dedicated to a massive mistake I made. It's called the House from Hell. It truly felt like it during that time. Humility, how can we part the threads that hold us together?

Did you ever read the poem, The Indispensable Man? The bottom line is, “You think you're indispensable, you're the brightest when you come into the room, and your ego's in bloom. Here's how it really works. Put your hand in a bucket of water and then pull it out. The mark that's left is how much you'll be missed.” The moral of the story is not to make you feel like crap. It’s to let you know there's no indispensable man. Just do the best that you can. Stay humble in Christ. We are all loved by Him. In the end, we are all good as dust. There's this beautiful duality of, “I'm everything in Him,” and, “I'm nothing.” You and I could evaporate and the world will continue to go on.

I'm sure you are indispensable to certain people that you have come in and helped find a home. My father was indispensable to you because of the impact he had on you. We never get full of ourselves. If somebody's not near there, the Tremendous Legacy dies. No matter what happens, it's going to go on because it's not about us.

The hope is that the folks you've impacted will carry that on. Again, it's still not about you.

He's like, “Don't you dare talk about me.” “Whatever Dad, we talk about you.” It was all about Jesus. You had to talk about Christ because there was no way he was going to sit there because he was like, “This is not what this is about.” We did both. We talked it out and hug it out. Can we talk about your book? You can see it a little bit here with the name. Tell them the name.

It's called the book on Relational Real Estate. It's a short plane ride. It's an overgrown children's book about people who had a unique situation surrounding a piece of property. That sounds like you have a property, it's worth something. How could that be a burden or whatnot? There are so many situations where it is the only anchor that has kept someone from moving on. It could be surrounding death, relocation, or something. They want to go be with family in another state. This thing is one thing holding them back.

The Book On Relational Real Estate

We ran into a bunch of unique situations over the years that no one was willing to just come to pay these people cash for this. We tried to fashion an offer that worked around their solution and created these win-win-wins, also cliché in the entrepreneur world, but created a way to get them relief. They know that we had to make some money and process. I’m not talking about like, “Here comes this company that's so great and they save me.” No, these are real people with real needs. Can we help them?

On the flip side, we've sold some homes to people who never thought that was a possibility. It is the American dream to have something that is your own and it creates stability for your family. It's a tangible thing that holds a lot of intangible feelings and things of that nature. Everything in this, there's a thread that runs through it that is just about the people behind the stories. It's very easy and fast. There are even some pictures in it just to make it a little bit more real. We've got fun quotes from other authors and people who made an impact on a family's life. The book is Relational Real Estate.

They can pick it up on Amazon.

Paperback or hardcover, whatever your preference, Kindle even.

What about The House from Hell? I got the book. Great stories.

The House from Hell was my second purchase in my investing career. I was 27 years old and after I'd done my first one, I made a little bit of profit. In my mind, 27-year-old Matt, I already had a handle on this whole thing. I knew how it worked. My realtor and I did the same thing from the first one. It turns out the area that I bought in and the particular house I purchased was not as good as I thought. It included a lot of renovations, hiring the wrong contractor, him stealing money, lawsuits, and all kinds of things. That's how I accidentally stumbled into being a landlord for the first time. I also had some tenants. I don't want to be too mean, but they were tenants from hell.

The moral of The House from Hell is that it ended up turning out well. I've got a good family in there after a while and they're still there. They've purchased the home from us over the past years. They're almost done with me. They've hosted weddings at the quinceaneras and all kinds of parties that invited me to several of them. It has been a joy that started as an absolute tragedy.

That's become the house from heaven. Great story. The older I get, the more I finally learn and unlearn. Leadership is all relationships. It isn't what you know. It is always going to be relational. That's the biggest lesson I've learned in many years of living.

We can't know all the answers. If you're honest with someone and say, “I'm not quite sure I'll figure it out? Would you mind helping me figure it out?” That's powerful too. Our egos get in the way and we want people to think that we have it all put together. We look and act a certain way. We're figuring it out. We're learning. As Kevin says On-Purpose, in progress in the beginning.

If you're honest with someone and say "I'm not quite sure I'll figure it out" or "Would you mind helping me figure it out?" that's powerful too.

Matt, thank you so much.

Thank you very much.

I can't believe it all.

I don't know if we can do this.

Charlie, deduct my pay if I say I'm not Tremendous or I don't hug people. Thanks to our audience. Thanks for asking and saying, “Can you come off because this is pretty cool?” Anybody wants to travel to South Central, PA, come on now. We're excited. Matt and I, we're going to take them over to the warehouse, load them up with some books because that's a tremendous way, you got to get some cases of books but not for you. We're going to give away.

Everybody, pick up a copy of the Price of Leadership. It’s a wonderful quick little read. To our Tremendous audience out there, remember you'll be the same person 5 years from now that you are now, except for 2 things, the people you meet and the books you read. Make sure they're both tremendous. If you like what you read, please hit the subscribe button. Give us the honor of a share. We'd love it if you'd leave us a review. Reviews are really important. If you get Matt's book too, you leave a review of that and everybody out there, thanks for being part of the Tremendous legacy, and keep on paying the price of leadership. Take care.

 Important Links

• Matt Moger

• Tough Shift

• Life Is Tremendous

• The Price of Leadership

• Boundaries

• Relational Real Estate

• On-Purpose

About Matthew Moger

Matt and his high school sweetheart Ashley started a real estate investing company, M5 Homes, in one of the worst recessions in US History. They have two lovely daughters and the whole family enjoys music and traveling. Matt’s purpose is to develop relationships through business and personal interactions every day.

Episode 176 - Dr. Lee Hardin - Leaders on Leadership

Leadership is a journey of shared vision. In this episode, we dig deeper into the community value of leadership with our exceptional guest, Lee Hardin. Drawing from his extensive military experience, Lee shares his leadership's core principles, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness and the art of balancing vision with practicality. He discusses the challenges of leadership, touching on the feelings of loneliness and weariness that leaders often encounter. But more than that, Lee explores the concept of "shared vision" and how it's a linchpin in achieving success. He discusses the significance of collective goals and the power of a team viewing objectives through the same lens. It's a reminder that, in leadership, the synergy of shared vision keeps teams united and motivated. Tune in and discover how to lead with a purpose, build a shared vision, and balance your strengths to make a positive impact.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Dr. Lee Hardin - Leaders on Leadership

In this episode, I'm very excited to introduce you to my guest, Dr. Lee Hardin. Welcome, Lee.

Thank you so much for having me on. I greatly appreciate it.

You're welcome. Let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Lee Hardin. He holds a PhD in Educational Psychology from Temple. He has a Master's in Instructional Technology from Bloomsburg. He is an active Army duty officer with many years of service in the Pennsylvania Army National Guard. He was an Iraqi veteran from 2005 to 2006 at Al-Ramadi, Iraq.

Lee is also an adjunct professor in the College of Education and Human Development at Temple Research Interests in Executive Function/Self-Regulation Gamification and Instructional Design. Most of all, he is the father of three boys and has been happily married for many years. Lee, we're delighted to have you.

I should hire you for all my introductions. Thank you so much. That was so nice.

You're welcome. I'm excited for our readers out here. I always like to tell you how Lee and I connected. Lee reached out to me on LinkedIn. You saw somebody American College of Veteran Services. You said hey as a PhD and vet. We connected. I'm excited we did connect. After hearing about your educational background and your love of continuous learning and our country, I said, “I got to have you on this show.” Thank you for saying yes to my request.

Thank you so much for the great resources, especially since we're locals in Carlisle. There's a lot of military history, heritage, and connections that I made with the communities. The community is large. I'm thankful that's happened to it. It's great to meet you.

Thank you. You served under one of our previous guests, Major General John Gronski.

I could speak accolades upon accolades about that man. He's a wonderful person and has been very influential in my career, for my father as well who served with him. I was amazed that once we started connecting, I saw he was on your show. I go to the episode. It was great. He's written two books. I've had many interactions with him over the years and I'll share these stories here. He's great.

We got so much positive feedback on that as I'm sure we'll get on yours. Readers, this is Lee's very first guesting.

I’m starting at the top.

We're going to be talking about leadership. One of my father Charlie “Tremendous” Jones’ speeches was called The Price Of Leadership. After growing an insurance industry and growing his consulting company, he said, “For you to be in leadership, you're going to have to pay the price so you're not a LINO or Leader In Name Only.”

The first price of leadership is loneliness. We've all heard that's why a lot of people don't want to go to leadership because they still want to have friends and family over for dinner like I was in a family business. Can you talk to us about what loneliness means to you as a leader and maybe share a time when you went through a season of loneliness?

After reading some of the tenets that your father brought up, that's probably one of the biggest ones that hit me. Every organization and industry is different. Some places have a hierarchy that you start at maybe at the bottom or entry level and you work your way up. It hinted toward there when you explained it. You make a lot of friends along the way. It gets very difficult when you become in those supervisory, managerial, director, or executive level positions. It's hard to cut ties but you still also want to keep that interpersonal connection you made with people.

The military is a very small community. You're always around people you always meet. In the education academic field, it's very much the same. The big thing that I encountered was that we all have our passions. There are certain things that we like. Sometimes you join an organization where the culture is a little bit different. There may be something that you coming in as a leader.

There are predecessors prior to you who set certain standards and tones good or bad. It may work or may not. Making that assessment and trying to figure out, “Now that I'm the new person in here, how to give my flavor and my vision as well while also ensuring that people are still productive, happy to be there, and also buying into what I'm trying to get them all on board with?”

The big thing for me was that I had a Master’s in Instructional Technology. One thing that I was more tech-forward than a lot of people, for example, was when I first joined Temple many years ago. My role was in charge of teaching all the teachers. I was running faculty workshops to improve them and their abilities to lead various online courses and asynchronous courses. PhD people are wonderful. They are incredibly knowledgeable and smart. They know their research interests very well but not a lot of them can utilize technology. They can't convey communication very well. They may know a lot of things but maybe communicating and being a good teacher is sometimes a challenge.

They take these workshops or self-development which is wonderful and outleading in spearheading a lot of the HR initiatives for these technology workshops. The one thing that I thought was interesting, and this is maybe for some of the younger/older readers, is if you've ever been to a conference where a speaker how to PowerPoint, they ask you to pull out your phone and maybe buzz on in with a certain answer to a question or something like that, it’s like polling the audience, giving feedback, and also getting people engaged.

The technology at the time when I first joined Temple was making students with these remote control devices or clickers from the bookstore. It costs a lot of money. There were a lot of problems with it. I'm like, “Kids have smartphones. This is not a new technology. It is something that a lot of other places and corporations use. We should be embracing a lot of the new changes and getting rid of some of this old stuff because there are so many problems.”

The big driver of that was noticing how many complaints were coming from students. How many calls were going into the tech center? Their clickers don't work, “I lost my clicker.” Faculty were upset with it because they weren't getting accurate results and data. Sometimes when you're lonely with a passion like, “This is a technology we probably should be going in,” it's hard when there are people who may not understand it. They may be also afraid to invest in it. They may be afraid to spend money on it and learn something new.

As adults with adult learning theories here, we are resistant to change. It's trying to get people invested in buying in. Sometimes, I feel the biggest challenge that I have with the loneliest factor, a lot of things, is that we come from different organizations. You're being hired for a reason because you have expertise, how can you also get people at least maybe not passionate about it? They can understand that this is a benefit. That is the biggest thing that sometimes has trickle effects on everybody else.

That's valuable because you are an outsider and you were hired for something. As an early adapter, you may be the only one that sees it. What would you recommend out there? Is there a certain time frame? You always have some naysayers and that's fine. We know that but what would you recommend people when they're in that phase? That is a little unsettling. You're brought in and you see it but you don't know who else is going to see it.

If there are reasons why change needs to occur, maybe the company is here and there is a new direction and end goal in sight that we need to be at this level maybe because the current operation is not meeting quotas or certain standards, a solution and intervention has to be brought in there. Assessing the culture and knowing, “Are the people unhappy? How the previous administration or certain things were going on? Was there some negativity? Are they stuck in their ways for a certain reason?”

Trying to pull and get as much data information is key. Understanding where people are, bringing them into the room, having candid conversations, getting opinions, and then trying to pivot a little bit to show that, “This is what you have but here is a benefit that we probably need.” You would agree in trying to get them with that type of terminology and language. Can they understand that there's a benefit here that maybe would reduce the amount of work you're doing, maybe improve communications in a way, or there would maybe a faster process of getting from this step to this step if we do this new way?

It could fail but also understanding and explaining risk to. Making it sound like it's going to benefit them and make their life or the process a little bit easier. Sometimes people in certain situations, depending on how long they've been there or whatever their role may be are looking in there. There are small bubbles and how it affects them or their team. They are good manager and leaders. They're all looking out for their people below as well like, “Is this creating more work? Is this going to hinder my progress?” Trying to bridge those gaps and find the best solution sometimes is the way that I always sell. Let's look at the organizational and team benefits. Those are the two I always go with.

I love that you talked about getting the people on board, especially as an educator. I read this book. It came out in the ‘50s. I had to tell what you know and it was about how to teach foremen to teach managers. You used to go out behind the back at the shop and pummel each other. We don't do that anymore. They said, “People can only learn new knowledge when you put it on an overlay of something they already know.”

People can only learn new knowledge when you put it on an overlay of something.

To your point, when you are coming on with something new to them, you have to drop it down and build on something even if you have a PhD, 2 or 3. That's how we learn. I remember when people would tell me stuff, I was like, “It's flying over my head. I have nothing to link it to.” Knowledge can only be built on knowledge. You can't just input something new. It has to be traced back.

For educators and loneliness, it's a matter of people saying, “They don't get it. They don't like change.” That's never the case. We're all in the world. It's 2003. You may not be a fan of change but there's something else going on there. We're having trouble linking it to something in the real world or there's a trust issue, which doesn't mean we don't like change. It means we don't trust the person giving us that. I don't know if we talked about bringing that down, especially to very smart educators who get that knowledge that is always changing. They're not afraid of new knowledge. What we get paid to do is find new knowledge.

To add to your point, every industry is different with different readers out there. What is the demographic? What is the client? What is the customer? Especially when it comes to academia, they're young. 18 to 22-year-olds are a primary demographic there. They're used to using a lot of technology. That's common sense to them that you have educators who are very experienced, knowledgeable, and probably very good teachers.

Organizations change software all the time. They upgrade new systems, different types of websites, and computers. There are a lot of things that are obstacles to overcome. You can say that gets in the way of learning. That's the bureaucracy of every single industry you're dealing with, how to reach your client in addition to all the other tasks that support and supplement it. You can still reach them but it may not be the most effective way anymore in five years.

Shared Vision: That's the bureaucracy of every single kind of industry you're dealing with, how to reach your client in addition to all the other tasks that support and supplement it. You can still reach them, but it may not be the most effective way anymore.

Reaching is teaching. The more I stop consulting or trying to motivate people and teach, it's remarkable. Can we talk about all the great things from when social media first came out? Kids, you can laugh but this was a long time ago. On Twitter a few years ago, I was like, “I'm not doing this.” Somebody says, “Let me show you.” They set it up and I'm like, “That was easy.”

It’s like ChatGPT. I'm like, “What is this? This is dumbing people down. This is an abomination.” Somebody says, “Put something in there and type it.” I'm like, “Are you kidding me?” I was so reticent because I didn't know what I didn't know. They call it, “You are unconsciously unconscious.” People see, “This isn't that big of a threat and deal.” The benefits of it are remarkable.

I was feeling lonely for a while because I had so many people I needed to give me products. I was waiting for them. I'm like, “As a solopreneur, it's already lonely enough when you're waiting for people but this has allowed me to get ten times the work done and keep focusing on my interaction with people and not be in this lonely space of I can't move forward.” That's my ChatGPT plug right there.

A lot of people still have those reservations. Is it a perfect system? No. There are still a lot of things that need to be explored but it's managed responsibly. It responsibly embracing. We need to welcome something new but also be cautious about how it's being used. Some people are worried about, “This will replace a job here and there.” Not necessarily.

There are a lot of nuances in human experiences that come into a lot of the work that we do, especially when it comes to leadership, managing people, and resources. Can AI do that? Not necessarily. Maybe in the future, sure but I don't think that's something that we're going to have to necessarily deal with regulation and government oversight. Also, industry oversight. How can we choose how we want to use this? To your point, exploring is good. Being always cautious and asking questions of why and how is going to help frame your mindset moving forward.

Exploring is good, but being always cautious and asking questions why and how, that's going to help frame your mindset moving forward.

We talked about loneliness. How about weariness? My dad would always tell me, “If you're going to be out there leading, you're going to get some people that do way more than what's expected and a lot that don't.” You think everybody in the military is. People are everybody else. There are super soldiers and then there are people who are checking the clock until a retired on active duty would call, a road sergeant. How do you stay on top fighting from you're teaching, father, husband, creating content and you're serving in the military and deploying? How do you combat weariness?

Loneliness is number one. Weariness is right behind there. Burnout is inevitable no matter who you are. There are different types of burnout whether it is physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, or whatever it may be that you're experiencing. Life throws things at us that are also additional obstacles that get in the way of us and our trajectory. It's a lot working to jobs. I'm very thankful for my family. My family is a bedrock.

I learned that I could not always do it by myself. When I was a young soldier, very hungry, and wanted to get out there and do everything, that was great. That was a good time in my life. As new responsibilities came forward, I had to also push aside the persona of being strong and tough, asking for help and not being afraid to do so. A lot of people are afraid to ask even their peers. Even asking your team if you have subordinates or other people out there. They want everyone to succeed. They don't want to have drama or trouble at work.

If there's a way that people can pitch in, great. With weariness, it's your responsibility to understand what helps you blow off some steam. I've always been active. I was a collegiate athlete. I swam in college. Though I miss the water, and I wish I could get in the water more often, I can't but with my kids teaching them to swim and things like that, it's great. Working out is probably so much the one thing that I'll always dedicate 30 minutes of my time to. I can do 30 minutes in various ways.

It's not like I'm working out like I used to when I was younger. A lot of time catches up with you. Flexibility and mobility are key. The one thing that I've learned in the last few years with all the new responsibilities that I've been dealing with is that the other thing that would make it more nagging and terrible is if I also have bad knees, bad back, or things that are hurting me. I'm also dealing with these mental issues and these things that are at work, and all these tasks I have to deal with. I have to add on an injury or something like that. That's not something that I ever want to go through ever again.

I've had some injuries before and it makes things a lot more complicated. I feel that even if it is yoga, stretching, or anything like that where that's getting you up and moving, it's a part of self-care and that's one thing that you can't make others do for you. It's not in other care. Self-care comes in many forms. Reading books is always great too for mental fatigue. Some people have a negative concept of maybe binge-watching a show. There are some times when you do need to turn off for a little bit and not be the director, president, or whatever your title may be.

Tap into some creative or imaginative aspects. For me and being a parent, my kids are getting to the age where we are being careful with video games and stuff like that. That gets a bad rap but I'm very passionate about that. There are a lot of puzzle processes and benefits of it. I see my kids light up when they're overcoming a challenge, working with them, and playing it together. You are creating memories and it's fun. Seeing their joy is residual. A smile is contagious. Those are the things that I tap into as much as I can. It is a little bit of time for me but a little bit of time for my family. It sets things all in the right way. That's for me.

I love the physical aspect of it. For those out there who have been in the military, we were taught early on. We were gym rats. Your physical conditioning was an integral part of it. For people that are in their mid-40s, people are like, “He's still in the prime.” We're all in our prime. I don't care if you go away from it for twenty years. Your body doesn't forget. There have been times when I have been away from working out for fifteen years. If I'm back in four weeks, I'm telling you, I am almost where I was before honestly.

You look at the people in their 70s, 80s, or 90s. We got people walking around. You got to finish the race strong and take care of the shell. You will live. There's no reason why we should all live to be 120 if we stay highway proportionate and stay away from the big lifestyle illnesses like stress, smoking, drinking, and bad eating. The body is the beautiful thing that God created. We have to watch out for that. Listen to yourself. I can't read your mind. I'm not God. You have to take care of yourself.

It's good to indulge in a nice dessert here. Be happy with it. It's never too late to start. There are going to be benefits that come from it even in 1 week or 2. Have some consistency. Get out of bed maybe a little bit faster and not feel back pain. Those are the things you're working for. It's longevity. It’s feeling good. That unlocks more potential and other opportunities to do other things as well. That's where I'm looking at my kids and seeing how active they are. I want to be active for them.

I want to get out there, play wall, and do all those good things. Get outside, enjoy the weather that we have, and see the beautiful fall colors and stuff. That's the stuff that I want to do. It's staying focused and making a routine regimen. Some people may see that as an extra burden but it’s not. It's a way to keep your home spirituality and mind free to move on to other tasks. That's the way I look at it.

Shared Vision: Staying focused and making a routine, a regimen. Some people may see that as an extra burden, it's not though. It's a way to also keep your home, spirituality, and your own mind free to move on to other tasks too.

The body is the temple. Respect and take care of it. The other thing is for everybody's aging, either you get year equipped to take care of yourself or you've got to have somebody take care of you. I'm strong. I thank God for my health. I take my health very seriously but I am here because I want to be able to take care of people. It's a selfless thing. It's not like, “Why should I do this?” Either you're going to be in a home or something.

Half of Americans have been on a medicine for X number of years. I'm not talking about genetic stuff. I'm talking about stuff that you should deal with and then get off. It's not a good habit. There are always repercussions and unintended consequences. Your body, if left to, is the right thing and a lot of natural things. We were in the military with our clearances. There are a lot of things I couldn't take and I'm thankful I couldn't take them. I had to figure out a way to solve anxiety or depression. I did. I came through it as a situational thing.

That goes back to the first point of being able to open up. If you can't do certain things, find resources because there's plenty out there. There are always alternative forms and things that can help you out. People have expertise in different areas and stuff. Leverage that stuff. That's 100%.

Thank you. We've talked about loneliness and weariness. The next topic my father talked about was abandonment. I saw your puppy earlier. For us abandonment has a negative connotation. You abandoned your dog or fear of abandonment. One of the fears is people stay in toxic relationships because they’re like, “Bad is better than nothing.”

He said, “Abandonment is to stop thinking about what you like and want to think about in favor of what you ought and need to think about.” It's abandoning the things that are not the highest and best use of your calling, whether it be a sideline, a habit, or a friend. He's talking about pruning and getting very focused on the battle plan of what's next. Can you talk to us about that? You're juggling a lot of places. How do you stay focused on what you need to be focused on? I'm sure you get asked to do 100 different things on any given week.

I'm sure everyone does. Everyone's got different situations. That's where reaching out to you and starting this journey. I realized that I was living two lives. I'm in the military. There are a lot of different types of things and demands but also at the same time, I went out on my own. I was doing night school. I spent eleven years of my life in college, getting a Master's, a PhD, and everything. That was a very lonely journey because you're working a full day, 9:00 to 5:00, and at night, spending lots of hours in classes and then writing papers. Kids are also involved.

I'm very thankful for my parents. My dad was an active duty service member. I was an Army brat born in Maryland. We moved around. My mom was a nurse. She did certain periods. She was the breadwinner. She was making money because nursing is a great field to be in as well. The long-term goal that was established early on was I look at why my parents did. They were very supportive and encouraging. My brother and I were the first people to go to college. We wanted to get a degree.

I didn't necessarily know even while I was doing all these things what I wanted to do until probably my mid-twenties. I realized the passion that I had to be a teacher and an educator. As a leader, you have to be that too. It's not just by being in a classroom and a professor. There are things that you have to manage. There are three major skills that I keep looking at with my personality. I have some strengths and certain weaknesses.

The major end goal where I want to be is trying to find, “The military is not going to last forever. How can I improve myself so I can better than also transition into other areas in academia, corporate, or whatever it may be and also still have the same skills that I've developed in the military but also look at ways of improving myself and getting myself out there to learn new things?” I don't know everything. A degree is a wonderful thing. Having letters and stuff next to your name is awesome. Time keeps moving forward, research and new education.

A lot of things that I'm always passionate about are going to be education. I would like to see, “Where am I going to be in ten years from now?” I'm hoping that I am with a team that is as energized and fired up about certain things as I am. It's a great camaraderie and moral thing but also being a person who is very empathetic and able to take care of people. I want to continue teaching and educating but also dive into other realms of research, maybe write a book and do another study or two, and hopefully would help future veterans or do a study that is helping out mid-level or small leaders impacts of training.

Those are things that I feel, “How can I leave a lasting mark?” It's hard to see those far-away goals sometimes. Making long-term goals is important but the short-term ones too are as important. What can you do in the next year? What can you do in the next two years? When can I do my next phase of military education? Do I want to get another degree? I don't know about that one but at least where can I focus my time to make it most beneficial to meet that final goal?

Making long-term goals is important, but the short-term ones too are just as important.

One thing to wrap a bow on it is my research on executive function. Executive function is a set of skills and we all have it. What makes you a competent human being? You have certain needs and decisions to make every day. Executive function is a set of skills of you establishing a goal and then thinking about the best ways available to you at this point to get that goal. The final piece is regulating your behavior to do it. That is a problem with many people.

We have different motivations, extrinsic and intrinsic. Things are more prioritized. Something's more rewarding to us or more gravitated towards this. Think of people who are like, “New Year's comes around. I'd like to have a New Year's resolution where I would only lose weight.”They have an established goal. They think about certain things that they may want to cut out of their life. Some of those bad habits, maybe no more soda. “You have a lot of sugar. I can't have that.”

The hard part is regulating the behavior and staying on track. Sometimes making goals is very nice. They have their hardship. Finding the smaller achievable goals to build to the long-term goal is probably the best way. I'm trying to explore, “Where am I going? I have an open road ahead of me. I still have a few years of military service left,” but at the same time, I want to make sure that that time is also going to be beneficial to move to the next step of my life.

You talked about your ideal. The wonderful exercise is, “Here we are and where we're going to be.” Anything that isn't up here and down here, you don't drag with you. A lot of people struggle with abandonment because they haven't determined exactly what they want. If you haven't taken the time to understand who you are, you can't understand anybody else until you understand yourself. Leadership is self-awareness. I know how I'm perceived, who's going to get me, and who's not going to get me but that's beautiful that you talk about your goals than anything. You can say, “Eventually, this is going to all dovetail into getting me where I want to be in ten years. It stays on the plate.”

You even talked about getting your PhD when you go back in for school, an advanced degree, or certification. You have to take stuff off. You have to abandon things that maybe you did before. You may go into mixers, fun, or vacation. You can't do that now because your end goal is this and there's only a certain amount of hours in a day. I like that. Goals help you stay at the forefront of what gets packed in the bag for the next level of the ascent and what stays at base camp. You're like, “I outgrew this. I don't need this anymore.”

Saying no is a very powerful thing. It's tough to do, especially with friends and other things but sometimes making sure you circle back to what does matter to you. Abandoning is tough. That's a very strong word.

It's something you did once. Saying no always means something's dying off but that's okay because abandonment means new growth can't happen until the dead disease is dying or pruning off. We're getting into fall but come spring, you whack everything off because if you don't, there's no explosive growth. You can't keep going and doing all the old things you used to do.

We're not made that way. We can't do it. We go through seasons. We're in this season. You're coming out of your military season. I did that many years ago. I had to go, “That worked for me. What do I bring along the way that is still all the skillsets?” There are things I had to stop doing and relationships I let go of because we're onto something else.

There's always going to be transitions with every type of job. It is not just the military out there that people are going to retire and move on. “You got that pension or whatever it may be.” There are certain goals you may have attained and then you want to move on to the next set. That's great. I'm not sure exactly even for me in my stage what is it even out there. That's where I feel that I'm doing my research and seeing what other opportunities could there be.

There's always going to be transitions with every type of job.

Maybe academia is where I would want to end up but what if there's an opportunity for me to also help government work or something with the corporate sector that I can get passionate about? I'm not saying no to anything. It's more about seeing what is the best way that I can move forward that will also help enhance my family's life and my values.

You're doing the heavy lifting and figuring out what you want. People say, “What's next? I haven't thought about it.” You're going to have to. We don't retire from something. We retire to something. That takes strategic planning and tactical. It takes setting some real things together. We have friends who got out of the military after 20 or 30 years and that's it. They didn't look long unfortunately because if you don't have a purpose and stuff like that, you're like, “What else is there?”

For some people out there, maybe they reach a certain point there and that's great. I do feel sometimes, “Why settle when there are other things that you can embark on a journey and embrace?” You're retiring to something new. That's excellent. I don't want to think of my life in phases of employment, the jobs I had, or the settings I was in. It's more so I feel that there's always continual growth.

There are certain things that you are going to outgrow. There are certain skills and things that I used to do. It's not saying that I'm above them by any means but they don't provide value to me anymore. There are new goals in mind that I need to focus on and maybe publishing a book. That's going to take time. I'm going to have to do maybe a page a night. It may take 270 days to do it. If I stick to it, that one page a day can get done.

Lastly, my father talked about vision. For leadership, the Bible is clear to say, “Without vision, people perish.” I can remember hearing vision as a young girl. I'm looking at these guys. They were born with it. They're on a different level. Their brains are wired differently and my dad was always like, “Vision is simply seeing what needs to be done and then doing it.” It had this future aspect but also very pragmatic tangible tactical aspects. Can you share with us what vision looks like for you and how you continue to hone and refine your vision?

It's not just the military. This translates to business as well. There's this concept of shared vision. “It's not just my vision. I want people that are working with me to understand that, ‘Though this is what I see, I'd also like to get that feedback from what other people's perceived problems with.’” This goes back a little bit with Major General Gronski. We were together overseas in Al-Ramadi for eighteen months of deployment. He had a very large problem set. This is how the military hierarchy is. It's the commander's intent.

It is the trickle-down effect of, “This is what the overall goal needs to accomplish.” In this large landscape, there are different departments, divisions, sectors, and people. Teams are handling different tasks in this large scope. If we all understand the higher intent and vision, and we still do our part that will help enable other coworkers, teams, and departments to also do their job supporting one another, and if we all stay on a task, we are able to achieve that final goal by doing our small little pieces.

When you're a leader, there's not necessarily a book of all the best possible solutions you could do. Every situation is unique. You have to analyze and understand what resources and constraints you have. Here’s one that I'd like to share. I was a company commander at the time and this is one of my favorite stories. In the National Guard, for those who aren't familiar with that, that's not their primary job. They are reservists working on a very part-time basis but they raise their right hand to serve in this country.

Every situation is unique. You have to analyze and understand what resources you have and what constraints you have.

They'll go wherever they need to go and do various types of missions, whether it's state, federal, overseas, or in the state, snow storms, flooding, or even types of civil disturbances or things like that. We often sometimes get called up to do some civil disturbance situations. Whenever you get these calls coming up where a large event is happening, maybe one of the conventions, or a large debate is going to happen somewhere, we at least know what's coming. Every time these come around, we have new people in our formation. People who used to be so knowledgeable and experienced are gone.

We have a younger crew or maybe some new generation who has never even done some of these things before. It's part of our vision to ensure that they're also trained in the best possible way. “Who are people in my company, formation, or team that can help enable and pass on some of this great knowledge?” Not every director or supervisor is an expert or has expertise in certain fields out there.

The one thing that I realized quickly is a large thing that we had to attend and do the presidential inauguration many years ago. We had to go down to DC and get deputized. We had to help the Secret Service and other people, keeping the safety of the public, the parade, and all the motorcades that were going through but also keeping people off the streets and making sure people were not interfering in any way. It was a very important type of mission.

One thing that we did as a shared vision was we understand the problem. We understand that there are numerous ways we can go about this. We were a very young crew here. I pulled together some of our senior enlisted sergeants, supervisors, or whatever you may call them in the civilian world. Some of them had a lot of this experience and we realize a lot of them had full-time positions. They were police or corrections officers. They had ties to other departments.

We wanted to leverage the resources in our community that have a lot of this expertise and together, we got a large exercise that we made up all by ourselves to then build towards before the big show where we had eleven departments to different police departments. We had state police, emergency services of all types, ambulances, dispatches, you name it. We put on a large-scale mock scenario training for 72 hours of various real-life scenarios. We’re writing a real script of things that could happen and making training as real as possible to meet the intent of the vision.

We made the training a lot harder than it was going to be at the inauguration. It was very stressful and intense. “If a bad scenario happened, this is how you would need to react to it.” It was very good with lots of stopping, pausing, and reflecting. “Let's talk about what happened. How can we improve that?” Also, having those after-action reviews to build forward. With vision, it's important to communicate the shared concept. Getting what people want to see, “How do they view success? How do I have you success? How should we marry the two?”

Shared Vision: With vision, it's important to communicate the shared concept.

Also, creating training that will ensure that people can meet not only the expectations of that's success and get them ready. Sometimes, with targets, time, and budget, there are a lot of restrictions. Things are always coming at a fast pace and it's hard to get training involved. It's proper. Some people will hand wave it. That's usually going to set up for a disaster, getting people to buy in early and then also having them be part of the training. I didn't create the entire training. I leveraged the resources I had and together with their hand in the pot, they wanted to own it.

They wanted to do it. They were happy with the product. That is a sense of belonging that we as a team can agree that we did a good thing. It got recognized which was not what we were looking for but the Army took notice. A lot of people got a good pat on the back here and there. I fortunately even got to go into the Pentagon. I got to receive a reward from former Chief of Staff General Mark Milley for putting on that large-scale exercise. Sharing that story, this is something that would be worked out for us. I hope that other people do the same. That was a very cool thing.

You talked about vision, the front end, and the back end. First of all, you said it was shared. I would tell people in leadership, “You all have to be viewing the goals through the same lens. If you have 100 different people, we all have our individual goals and motivations. We collectively all have to be tied to a shared vision.” I love that. Vision has to be shared and that combats that loneliness. I love that at the end you talked about an AAR or After Action Report for our readers.

One of the greatest things about the military was whenever we did anything, good, better, or ugly, we always did what we call a hot wash or an After Action Report. We sit there. We'd be very brutally honest with ourselves, “What do we own? What do we mess up?” I get with civilian corporations that I'm like, “We messed up but we're on to something else. Nothing changes until you identify the behavior and implement something.”

That’s what I love about it. The military was very honest with themselves, maybe not in the political realms but at the soldier level, we're very much about calling each other out. I love that provision. You're going to constantly be like, “We are all in. We can't take these 50 different mountains. Now that we've tried this vision, let's reevaluate. What do we keep doing? What do we stop doing? What are we doing that's already good?”

I love that because vision is a fluid thing. Your values are immutable but everything else is open for negotiation like contingency planning and the fog and friction war. I love that you talked about vision from a forward aspect but then you got to sit and evaluate it. I don't care if it was your vision. You have to look and see if that baby is ugly. What are you going to do to evaluate that?

Be honest about it. You love the project or a passion. If it didn't work, it didn't work. That's okay. What's the next step?

Root cause analysis and corrective actions. Otherwise, you're flying all over the place. It always baffles me. For readers, it’s ownership. I always say, “What can we own? What's going to happen differently the next time?” A lot of people are like, “It's out of our control.” I'm like, “There's always something. It's like saying you don't sin.”

When I was getting some of my clearances, they were like, “What if you broke the law?” I'm like, “I'm a law abider.” He's like, “You never went over the speed limit or rolled through a stop sign?” I’m like, “You're talking about those laws?” We can all own something in our lives that we're not at the bar of excellence that we claim that we are. I love that you talked about how values are shared. The outcome is all shared.

A part of it, together people feel a sense of belonging and responsibility to it as well. It's not just my vision anymore.

Shared Vision: When building a vision together, people feel a sense of belonging in responsibility to it as well.

Vision is multiple. Otherwise, it's your viewpoint. It's your vision when you get the team. If two or more are gathered, then it starts getting that synergistic thing. Thank you so much. We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Those are some wonderful examples, insights, and inspiration you gave us, as well as information. Is there anything else you'd like to share with us from a leadership perspective on why we have our readers here?

We hit so many good points. I feel that there are three skills when it comes to leadership that we all know. We have administrative, interpersonal, and conceptual skills. Out of those three buckets, it's important to self-analyze, where is the strongest skillset that you have out of those three? More than likely, there's probably one that is going to be where you feel the most comfortable. With administrative, that's the stuff where you're able to manage people and resources and show some technical competence and stuff because you've been on the job. You are getting the work done.

There's the inner personal side where I feel that some people are more emotionally intelligent. You're able to show empathy. You can manage people but anyone can do that because of your position and subordinates but how empathetic are you? How can you relate to what a person is experiencing on their job and their life? We all have different life experiences and also being able to manage conflict. That's also another part of the interpersonal and then the conceptual part. We were talking about creating visions, strategic planning, and problem-solving.

Some people may be more conceptual leaders. They're the ones who can make a vision pop. People get in on the strategy and plan it together, solving problems, framing the problem, and thinking of the best solution but then it goes into the administrative and interpersonal. Can you ensure that it is communicated properly or the resources are being managed properly or supporting the people to do the jobs and delegate?

I feel that is a revolving wheel in every phase of our life. There may be a certain part where we're better at one or the other. I feel that some jobs sometimes take us away from our people because there are certain responsibilities. We get siloed and there are also certain other things that we have projects we have to deal with. The higher you go up, the lonelier at the top. I feel that in my current phase of life, I'm with the team. I love that I can talk and relate.

It's great to go to work. It's good to have friends. It's good to see that when they have a problem, they're able to talk to me about it. When we're in that space sometimes, I'm not able to see conceptually some of the bigger picture because I'm more focused on the team right here in front of me where we're working together on certain goals but there are other things out there that I'll have to break away for a hot second, go to some of these meetings, and realize that there are certain things in the long-term calendar that we need to address. That's the balancing act.

As a leader, it's a self-assessment. Out of the administrative conceptual interpersonal, where do you feel is your best and weakest? If it's a weakest, does that require you to maybe do a sink, meet up, have a meeting, have a brainstorm session, or whatever it may be to fix one of those skills? Self-assessment and data are going to be your friend. That is the only way that we can truly reflect on feedback. Take it with a grain of salt and do not get upset by hearing that. Be honest with yourself, “Where are weak?” That's always the continual growth model for me.

Shared Vision: Self-assessment is your friend.

You talked about self-awareness. Where do you lead best? You alluded to it. We all have some of us who are more task, IQ, and EQ-focused. I even know when I was in high-tech fields before, my DISC was radically different than what it is now since I've been many years in coaching and teaching. I also think it's important to know where you serve best. I've been in Fortune 100 and the military. I'm in every bureaucracy known to mankind. I finally realized that I don't like bureaucracies. I'm a wild little Maverick. I had to look at myself and say, “Although I can climb the ladder, do I want to be in the big pond or am I most at home at this?”

I had to walk away from things and say, “I could have kept doing this.” In the end, as long as whatever you put your hand to and you do with all your might, you're going to be an asset or blessing anywhere but for me, I had to look at myself and say, “Do I want to get better or bigger?” “I want to get bigger.” “You got to make more money and be at the sea level.” I finally look at myself and go, “I don't want this. This is not one for me. Can I do it? Absolutely.”

It's important that you talk about self-awareness. I coached a lot of people through life transitions where they are going from working for somebody else to doing their thing. You get that calling and you can't stop thinking about it but it's a lot of different things. As you are going through yours, you have to be true to yourself.

Self-awareness is key. I love how you said, “Bigger versus better.” I'm going to use that.

Some people want to be bigger. I'm like, “That’s cool.” I want to get better in my little microcosm and niche. We learned that from the PhD. There's one thing in life like little nuggets of knowledge that I know better than anybody else. I like that. Somebody also builds on that but rather than be pontificating about everything, that's not what we're called to do. We have ChatGPT. You don’t need to do that. How can people get a hold of you? What’s the best way to connect with you?

I'm starting this journey myself. I’m putting myself out there more. I finished my degree so I'm working on different projects and stuff. LinkedIn is the best way to find me. The other thing is the gamification thing. I didn't get to talk too much about it briefly. For the younger crowd out there, a lot of kids are watching Twitch and stuff, which is fun. It's an on-stream service where a lot of people are playing games, doing reaction videos to certain things, watching a movie, and stuff like that.

It's a weird realm but one thing that I realized that I loved was spending time with my kids and doing things with them. I feel that with current technology, growing up, there are a few pictures of me and stuff but there are thousands of pictures of kids. I have my phone all the time capturing them. I want to show them the stuff and have these memories later on in life. It’s very cool in the video. There's a lot of great things.

With Twitch, I started doing a thing where I'm playing with my sons every so often which is great. It's awesome to see them first off be very good playing random video games together like Mario Kart and silly things like that. It's a good thing that I'm also leveraging as well. It's a good thing too. I've started doing this Twitch channel thing. I'm not too dedicated to it but if the readers out there have kids and stuff like that, they look for kid’s safe channels to watch. It's family-oriented stuff. It's a father and son hanging out, playing, engaging, and doing something cool.

It's an infant stage but I've noticed as I'm teaching, as a professor and stuff, I'm interacting with the younger students out there in their twenties and they're telling me about all these things and how a lot of them grew up watching YouTube more than anything. They didn't watch Nickelodeon, Disney, or something like that. They're watching other videos on TikTok and all that stuff. There are a lot of channels out there that are very safe, family-oriented, and things like that. That's a little passion project on the side. If you're on Twitch at all or if anybody out there even viewed that, come check out our channel.

I saw your Twitch link that came through. I was checking it out. That's very cool. You nailed it. I can't believe it's your first. You did tremendously. There is so much wonderful wisdom. I want to thank you for being a part of this, Lee.

Thank you so much for having me on. This is a great time.

You're welcome. To our tremendous readers out there, where would we be without you? If you like what you read, please hit the like and subscribe button. If you do us the honor of a review, it means everything. It helps other people who are looking for, “How can I be a tremendous leader find us?” We would be so thankful for that.

Please reach out to Lee. Make sure you connect with him. The goal is the people you meet in the book you read. You make sure you get a hold of Lee. I know you are out there paying the price of leadership. We're right there with you. Keep on paying the price of leadership. Have a tremendous rest of the day. Bye.

Important Links

• Dr. Lee Hardin – LinkedIn

• Major General John Gronski – Past Episode

• Twitch – Sidechopper

About Lee Hardin

Lee Hardin holds a Ph.D. in Educational Psychology from Temple, and a Master's in Instructional Technology from Bloomsburg. He is currently an active duty army officer with 23 years of service in the PA Army National Guard and is an Iraq Veteran (2005-2006 Ar Ramadi, Iraq).

Lee is also an Adjunct Professor in the College of Education & Human Development at Temple. Research Interests in Executive Function/Self-Regulation, Gamification & Instructional Design. He is also the father of three boys and has been happily married for 11 years.

Episode 175 - Nicole Pearson - Leaders On Leadership

Leadership isn't about the destination; it's about the journey of growth, resilience, and putting others first. In this episode, we hear Nicole Pearson’s incredible journey. Nicole's story is not just about the real estate market; it's about the resilience of the human spirit and the determination to make a positive impact on others' lives. She unpacks the true meaning of leadership, touching on the challenges, sacrifices, and rewards that come with it. Nicole shares her personal experiences, including moments of loneliness and weariness, and how she overcame them to achieve her dreams. Discover the power of vision and how it shapes your path to success and learn how Nicole maintains her vision while nurturing a thriving team. Tune in now and get ready to pay the price of leadership.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Nicole Pearson - Leaders on Leadership

I am tremendously excited to welcome my dear friend and professional associate, Nicole Pearson. Welcome.

Thank you for having me.

Let me tell you a little bit about this tremendous guest you're about to read. Nicole is a full-time and full-service realtor. She's been that for several years. She has resided in South Central, Pennsylvania. She strives for exceptional customer service and relentless hard work. Those are the reasons for how successful she is. She loves being collaborative with other agents during transactions and assisting new agents while they are learning. That's part of her recipe for success and why she loves her career. Nicole, I’m delighted to have you here for many reasons.

I'm grateful to be here. I’m glad that you thought of me to have me on the show. I think highly of you. You are one of the most tremendously amazing people I know.

Thank you, Nicole. I'll give you my sponsorship dollars after this for saying that, but let me tell you something. She's in South Central, PA. We're both close to the Enola Boiling Springs area, the nexus of the universe. The original Garden of Eden is what I call the place we live. I met Nicole when I was moving back several years ago when my father was passing away, and I thought, “It's time to come back home to continue the legacy and take care of Mom.”

I reached out to Nicole because I was looking at homes. I reached out to many people. Guess who got back to me? It’s Nicole Pearson. I see her hustle clock and the word relentless. I have never known a more hardworking realtor than Nicole. She helped me find my beautiful place in Boiling Springs, right on Front Street. It’s like a little Hallmark movie where I met my betrothed, my neighbor down the street.

If Nicole hadn't found me that house, this whole secession of events wouldn't have happened. After we got hitched several years ago, Nicole helped me sell my house and find our new dream house out in Enola. Every time I look at the heaven on earth that I'm blessed with, I think of you, that you are in your zone of genius and helping people find the homes that they love so much.

I am glad that you chose me, not because I answered the phone. That helps, and that gets it started. That's a key part of real estate. It seems to be missing in a lot of aspects of it. That's a key part of opening the door. Coming to know you and Mike has been wonderful because you guys are amazing people. Letting me go through all these different phases and steps of your life has been great.

My schedule is insane. I did manage to wedge out to go to your wedding, which Scott and I were ever thankful to to be included in. I watch who you have become and strive to be that admired and well renowned is what you have made for yourself because of hard work. I love everyone to be successful, but there is something great about successful, strong women in business.

I am excited to talk about all things leadership with you, Nicole. My father wrote a speech called The Price of Leadership. It's one of the ones that has been the most downloaded and listened to. He was poignant about leadership. It was bittersweet. There are a lot of high highs and low lows, but there's a price you're going to have to pay if you truly are going to be a leader, not as what I call a LINO, a leader in name only.

The first price he talked about is loneliness. We have all heard that it's lonely at the top and heavy is the head that wears the crown. What does loneliness mean for you as a leader? Could you share a time in your career when you went through a season of it, how you got through it, and what you would like to share with our readers about the topic of loneliness?

It's funny because I have this conversation a lot with realtors once I see them becoming successful. It’s mostly female realtors. We have a little bit more of a trickiness with this. Once you become successful, people look at you differently. You'll have a few people you've come up with in the business that remains tight with you. That's a small few people. Others are like, “How did she get there? What did she have to do to get that?” It's real estate.

Once you become successful, people look at you differently.

Here's an idea. Pick up the phone, talk to people, and pay attention to what they're saying. It does get lonely because, if they don't say it to your face, you know that it's being said. I went through that when I was probably in the business for several years. I hit the ground running. I wasn't from here. I was a stay-at-home mom. I knew about sales, but I didn't know about sales, but I knew houses. You put yourself out there and go. Because of that and the attention I paid, the business started coming right away.

People are like, “They’re feeding her leads. They're this or that.” I get the fewest leads handed to me because they have a tendency to want to give them more to people who need it. I'm consistent. It does get lonely because you think of the people who were your friends as you were coming up, and you quickly realize that they're not that. That was hard because it does get lonely because I feel like I'm a good person. I'm not a devout go to church, but I feel like I'm a good Christian because I treat people well. I treat them with kindness. I always try to do what's right regardless of what that effect is going to have on me.

When people are talking about you, and you know they're talking about you, a big one I hear was, “It's the Nicole show.” I've come to learn. I have a big personality, but I'm also embracing that there's nothing wrong with that because am I going to be like, “No, let me.” You want to know that I know what I'm doing. You want me to be confident in myself to be confident in you. That has been a big one.

The most recent I heard was, and you probably know this, I merged with a team who came over to work with me at Howard Hanna. I never feel like I need to be number one. That's the biggest thing people don't realize about me. A lot of calls I got were like, “Why would you join a team? Why isn't it the Nicole Pearson team? Why isn't this?” I don't need to be in the spotlight. I want to be walking side by side with other agents, my partners, and team members. We're equal regardless of whether I sell more than some of them or I don't. We are equal. To me, that's important. I don't need to be the Nicole Pearson team and have that out there.

People are like, “Did you hear about the team? I don't think it's going to last.” I'm like, “Thank you for that.” I know it's going to last. Failure is not in my name. This is what happens when you become successful. I take that as like, “I've made you nervous. Our team has made you nervous.” Look out because Central, PA, we're out here. We might not be on every billboard and radio station, but we're here. We're going to do a silent attack.

I appreciate you brought that up because there is an aspect of loneliness. There's good loneliness and bad loneliness. You brought up an aspect of the bad loneliness where it's professional jealousy. Whether it's a woman thing, I've seen it happen to men. It happens a lot with women, but it is something to be aware of our leaders reading out there. It's going to happen to everybody. I look at even Jesus. They were like, “Who is he? He's Joseph's son. Who is he to tell us?”

If you realize that it's going to be there and you have to be you, that's on them. Professional jealousy is a self-imposed emotion on their part. You know authentically who you are. I always liked it because I saw who truly was my ally and my advocate who wanted my success more than even me and who are the other people as you're climbing the ladder and coming out of Mount Majority, you leave the rest behind.

It hurts. It shouldn't be that way, but it's part of who we are as human nature. I know I've judged people and been jealous. It's something to be aware of as a leader it's okay. It's part of it. It means you are stepping out. Stay humble, which you are, and stay real. I appreciate you sharing that because a lot of leaders are like, “Why doesn't everybody celebrate my success?” I'm like, “Who told you everybody was going to celebrate your success? You have to do it because you feel it's your calling whether anybody celebrates it or not.” I appreciate you dialing that in because I don't think we've talked about that on the show.

I was on the phone before this. I got off to get on the show with a client earlier. She called me around 10:30. I've known her for several years. I've been through her dating, marriage, children, and multiple homes. Her mom unfortunately passed away. She's like, “I need motherly advice and womanly advice.” I always have time for her. She's like, “Am I crazy?”

We went on and talked about things. We talked about being a mom and the jealousy that can come from that. Moms don't talk about the real craziness in their life. It is okay to be like, “I don't like my child now because they're being nuts.” No mom is going to tell another mom that because we have to have the persona that we have it all under control.

A lot of times, the people who look like they have it most under control don't. As women, we talk about supporting each other. As a humanity, we talk about supporting each other, but I see less of it. It is sad. That's what I said to her. I said, “You are a good woman. You wouldn't be who you are if your mom didn't do a great job raising you.” I'm honored that she looked at me to come to me for this. I'm like, “Stay true to you. Don't put so much pressure on yourself.”

It's okay if you don't vacuum now. It's okay if you decide to take the kids through McDonald's. It's okay if your kids are off the charts, and you're like, “I don't like them.” Don't put that pressure on yourself. Don't, for one moment, think that somebody else isn't going through that. It is the same thing in any aspect of life, whether it's a real estate career or motivational speaking and writing books. You're always going to look at someone else and think, “They have it going on.” Maybe they don't. You don't know.

Grow A Team: Whether it's a real estate career or motivational speaking and writing books, you're always going to look at someone else and think they have it going on, but maybe they don't. You don't know.

You said, “Don't put on yourself.” As you are saying that, I got an email from somebody I'd put in to speak. They're like, “We don't think that topic would be good. We pass.” I'm thinking, “What? It's all good. It didn't work out for whatever reason. I'm going to listen to that and see if there's any feedback that I can own for it. There wasn't. I'm going to move on.”

Sometimes, we are the worst enemies as far as making ourselves lonely because we think, “I'm the only one going through it.” For every speaker getting a yes letter, there are twenty getting a no. It's all okay. Press on. You're not the only one. I love that you shared that. How sweet that you're involved in people's lives. That's why I love you and why we're more than a transactional relationship. We go way deeper than that.

I had a client call me at 10:00. He's like, “I know you said that you don't have a life. I figured it would be okay to call.” My clients are my life. Thank goodness I have a supportive family that understands it. There's an occasion that my husband was like, “Could you set the phone down and make it through a dinner?” I'm trying a little more now. That’s why it was time for me to expand to something better.

It wasn't that I needed to sell more or build my brand more. It was that I wanted to find people who were like-minded like me, who had the knowledge that my clients would be okay if I went away for a weekend and they wanted to see a house because I don't ever want my client to have to wait on me. I want to get them in right away. My daughter and husband are both licensed, but if we're all away at the same time, I need to fall on other people and our family vacations together all the time.

It was with the thought that I was like, “Will my clients be able to relate to them? Will these partners I'm taking on be able to give them the same confidence that I do?” I'm not shuffling off my people at all. They still get me. I still do all of the negotiating. I had a deal going with an agent. I'm like, “I realize you never saw the house because someone showed them the house. You wrote the contract and negotiated it, never having seen the house. A third person negotiates the reply to the inspection. I don't understand how any of this can be good for a client, but it's working for you. Who am I?”

I'm like, “In this instance, where you're firing off an email to me that you want a $20,000 price reduction, do you not think that it is beneficial to everybody involved to call me and say, ‘Nicole, this is where we're at. This is what we would like to do. What are your thoughts?’ Instead of opening my email, and here it is.”

I'm hoping this is the second time I've had to have this conversation with this team, but I am hoping that at some point, it sinks in. I sit back and go, “Why am I helping them?” It benefits me and my clients because an open line of communication is better. After a phone call to them, we met in the middle. We found a happy place, and we're closing.

Grow A Team: An open line of communication is better ultimately after a phone call to clients.

You brought up the main difference between being a leader and moving into leadership. No doubt you're a leader. Everybody reading this is a leader, but engaging in leadership means it's no longer about you. It's not the Nicole Show. It's not the Tremendous Tracey Show, but it's about how you get things done with a team.

This brings us to our next topic, weariness. Many times, we as leaders, especially women leaders, are juggling many plates that we become burned out, chronically fatigued, frustrated, and let certain areas of our lives go to pot thing, literally or figuratively. Not me, but it happens. What do you think about weariness, and how do you with all this going on?

I love that you talked about the team because you said, “I want to be able if I want to go and do things that I can hand stuff off.” That is the goal. That's where you go from being a leader, a singular entity, to leadership, which is a whole group of people that are able to function without you. Nobody knows who the leader is because you're all this collective team. How do you combat weariness, Nicole? You're on all the time. You are a hustler. How do you stay hustling and not falling down and burning out?

There are a couple of things here that you brought up, which is amazing because I'm going to get into a little bit here. I do hit the proverbial brick wall. For about twice a year, I am mentally spent because we're on all the time. When you write a contract, especially in this market we've been in for the past several years, you are not only thinking of the client, you're like, “What are the five other agents going to be writing? How is this going to be?” Your brain is always going. There is no break. I talk in my sleep about real estate. My husband one morning said, “I almost bought the house you were selling in your dreams last night. You did a great job.”

I genuinely love what I do. To me, it is not a job. It is a career and a choice I made. I tell that to people who are thinking of getting into real estate. I'm like, “Don't look at me as the norm because I'm not the norm.” I chose this. You also have to know that it does dictate a little bit more in your life than something else would.”

We have four owners on our team. One of the four is two people. It's a husband and wife team. It’s technically five, but four entities own it. When we got together, we were like, “This is going to be your role.” A few months into it, I sat back because I was, as people called it, a lone wolf for several years. I can't believe you did this. I never thought you would do it. How is that going to work in all these personalities?

I sat back and watched it all happen. I didn't say a whole lot. I was like, “We can do this better.” We had our owners meeting, and we did a list. I'm like, “Everybody, let's make a list, not out loud, on paper for each of us and what you think all of our roles should be.” We took away our names. We took away the team manager and training specialist. I said, “We are all good at all of this. We are team owners and co-managers.” We wanted our agents to know that you can come to any one of us. We all know this stuff. We also needed to figure out where each of us was the strongest.

The funny thing is one of us didn't get to do it because she was homesick, but four of us did it. When we put it all together on one sheet, we all came up with the same thing for each one of us. We had to do it on ourselves, where our strengths and weaknesses were. Because we can do that, and we see that in each other, we have the ability to become even stronger together. We're not growing separately. Even I was a little nervous of, “Can I do this whole team?” It has been many years of me like, “Go.”

I've embraced it. I negotiate all my contracts. I write all my stuff. We have an amazing transaction coordinator. For the behind-the-scenes paperwork, I don't even have to think about it. I have partners I can count on if something happens. I had the last two falls. Knock on wood. This is the first fall in several years that I haven't had surgery.

I had to have surgery in 2022. It was a knee replacement. That's a long recovery. The year before was a hysterectomy. Do I have cancer? Do I not have cancer? Thank goodness I didn't. That was the best phone call ever. That also is a long recovery. I didn't have the support of all these people. It is amazing. We are all leaders. I forgot where I was going. What was the question?

It’s the team with weariness.

I'm not weary anymore.

I can tell that because you get to the point where you grow. Number one, we're not meant to be alone. One of my favorite verses that I had at the wedding is Ecclesiastes 4:2. It’s like, “A quarter of three strands is not easily broken.” When you weave together your support network, you can go through 90 million times more stress than you could before. Leanna Horne has one of my favorite quotes. It’s like, “It's not the load that breaks you down. It's the way you carry it.” When you have the right team shouldering alongside you, you can do anything. It's not 1 + 1 = 2. It’s 1 + 2 = 11, 111 or 1,000. It's synergistic.

For leaders out there, we have this great man theory. It’s like, “I was with them, and I'm the one.” Maybe you think that in your 30s and 40s when you're out there lighting the world on fire and burning the candle at both ends. The older you get, the more you realize, “Life is way more tremendous when done in fellowship with other leaders with a shared vision.”

Let's be honest. I turned 52. I had to think about that. I'm like, “We should stop celebrating birthdays.” I realized once you hit 50, we should not celebrate. I realized we have to celebrate so we remember how old we are.

The best years are coming.

I am starting to have a life a little bit again. That's new for me. I’m like, “I can plan something.” For a while, we wouldn't plan a vacation we couldn't drive to because we would miss planes. We weren't making it. The other reality is I'm not getting any younger. The buyers get younger. It doesn't matter how much knowledge I have and how good I am at what I do. I'm smart enough to know that I need to start training other people to have that knowledge and information. Build them up and help them be successful. Hopefully, they'll stay with me. If they don't, then I wish them nothing but the best.

It's about supporting us. Honestly, more agents are properly trained out there, which is why I do help agents from other brokerages because if they're not trained or they don't know, that's not beneficial to me. I'd rather people be educated out there in the field because it reflects on all of us in this industry. We can train people. I said to one of our agents under us, I'm like, “You may only be 21, but you will be me someday. I have no doubt about it.” She has the drive, ambition, and enthusiasm, and I'm like, “I have no problem giving you all of my knowledge and information.”

That's the mark of a true leader. The number of other leaders raise up. You're hitting it. This is about the time in life when you start looking back and saying, “Okay.” What did I always hear? The 20 to 40 is the learning. The 40 to 60 is the earning. The 60 to 80 is the yearning. The 80 to 100 is your blowout, and do the highest level of service. You're in that where you're earning power, but you're also starting. I'm glad you're doing it at 52. That's progressive and evolved, Nicole. Good for you.

You do know that I plan to sell real estate until I die.

I know. You'll be signing the last contract. Go to heaven.

I had a client say to me, “I certainly hope you live a long time because I don't want to have to go find another realtor.”

You're not going to be selling another house for me because, as Mike said, “The only time I'm leaving this house is going to be in a hearse.” I'm like, “Amen, we're in it.” You might find us a second or third.

We had that conversation when you bought it. We wanted to make sure it was your forever home, and it's amazing. I learned so much from our dear Molly Garman, who sold real estate until she passed. I'm not as tough as her, but one of the biggest things I learned from her was she did not give her respect willingly, not unwillingly, but as an agent, I had to earn it and work for it. Once you had it, you had it. God loves her.

I know there's a 50/50 in Carlisle of the love and hate from Molly Garman. She said what she said, what she thought, and that was it. She fought for her clients. She was tough. What an amazing role model for me to have starting out in the business. God rest her soul, but I planned fully to still be selling real estate as she was at that time.

My father spoke up until he lost his voice, but he whispered, “Finish the race strong.” That's what you do. We did loneliness and weariness. The next topic he talked about was abandonment. For us puppy lovers, abandonment has a negative connotation, fear of abandonment, but that's not the abandonment we're talking about.

What my father said was, “We need to stop spending time and hanging out with people and thinking about things we like and want to do and think about in favor of what we ought and need.” It was about pruning out the non-essentials, the things that weren't the highest use of our time, and the things that weren't going to get us to where we wanted to go.

Nicole, with all the different things, people come to you who were like, “Try this. Do this marketing. Do this team. Advertise here.” How do you stay tightly focused on your clientele, what you want to do, and your zone of genius? Somebody told me, “Tracey, don't be a jack of all trades, master of none. The more niche you go, the more you grow. You define that.” How do you stay so tightly focused? So

The joke is I'm a squirrel. We have a sign in our office about squirrels. You have to be a squirrel to be successful in real estate because it is constantly changing from minute to minute. You have many plates in the air spinning, and you have to figure out how to focus them all into the same spot and stack them neatly.

You have to be a squirrel to be successful in real estate because it is constantly changing from minute to minute.

My phone rings constantly with the next, latest, greatest, and best things. I don't buy my leads. I don't pay for lead generation. I do a mix of old school and new school. Here's a novel idea. Let's have a personal touch. Send a newsletter quarterly with actual information in it and things people like. Do a customer appreciation event. If I were to sign up for everything that I get a phone call for in a week, I don't know how anybody could keep track of it.

Here's the question. Even if you have somebody in in-house sales who's emailing those people and trying to be in touch with them, are you giving them that personal feeling they need? People forget real estate is personal. If you get married and you have children, you buy a house. Those are huge decisions. Everyone was like, “It's technology. The Millennials are all about the internet. They want to do that.” I'm like, “No.”

I did a class at a convention several years ago about dealing with Millennials. I'm like, “You're missing the boat here. You think that they're only digital. They're not. Yes, we have to text them to tell them that we're calling them and to please answer their phone because they're not going to listen to voicemail and call you back, but they are not as connected as we think.”

I pay attention to what is going on and what the needs are of people. I don't buy into every platform out there that's offering the next latest and greatest thing. I am staying true to what I have done from day one, which is answering the phone, responding to emails, responding to text messages, and sending out newsletters. I hand-sign 1,000 Christmas cards. I start in October, and I hand-sign them.

When it was smaller, I could do hand notes. Now, it's like carpal tunnel. It's a real thing. I at least hand-sign them. Those personal things go a long way because it is personal. With this younger generation, we're seeing that their parents are more involved in house buying. Don't focus on those clients. Focus on the whole family. Make everyone know they're important in this decision. That's probably the key. I don't have to get onto the next, each latest and greatest, because I have the here and now that has been the greatest for many years for me. Why would I change that?

I love that you talk to anybody. Most of our audience is in commission-based real estate, life insurance, financial services, and network marketing. You get it. When you build that book of business, it's all repeats and referrals. Even for speaking in publishing, I don't go out and advertise. So and so heard me or published with me. How'd you hear about me? You get to that point because it's relationship-based.

I'm like you. I love technology. ChatGPT has changed my life, but I'm never going to stop being able to use this mind, connect with people, and hug them. You're unstoppable because you have the resource of technology combined with the personal touch. We're not robots. We're still flushing blood with emotions. We still have needs. You're right. A home is a personal thing and one of the biggest investments most people are going to make in their lives.

This is where I was super smart. When I was looking at the people to partner with, I was smart enough to partner with a few tech-savvy people. That's what we're honing in on a couple of platforms. We don't want to be on every platform. It's too much because people slip through the cracks. People talk about bad experiences more than they talk about good experiences. They're going to remember that more than the good.

We don't want to have too many platforms. We're honing in on which platforms are the best for us to focus on marketing. We have a huge marketing budget that we're like, “Let's do some paper, maybe billboard, and this for digital.” We're blending the old with the new because I don't know about you, but in real estate, realtors were successful a long time ago, before there was the internet.

That's what I tell people. I'm like, “You realized several years ago none of this was around?” It was the dawn of mankind up until several years ago. We have one of our authors who came out with a book in 2022, 94 years young. He is like, “Tracey, I'm going to print off the sheet and mail it to people.” He drove sales through the roof.

Never underestimate. It wasn't his older people. They got it in the mail, and they're like, “Otherwise digital, it's busy.” There are times when I'm not on social media, LinkedIn, or even in my email for days, and it's gone. It's good, especially since tech is another resource. It means enabling, but it's not the answer. It certainly will never eliminate the need for a personal touch.

There is power in print. You see what you touch with what you do. He's an example. Even for our fundraiser coming up, we do an ad in the Pennysaver. Let me tell you. Those bingo people came out of the woodwork. I said, “Let's try this in real estate.” You can tell hardcore bingo people, “I'm going to go for fun.” I'm like, “Go for fun.” Some of them are scary.

I'm like, “This is the power of paper.” Even if it's once or twice a year, the full-page ad. I've had recognition come through from Lebanon of like, “I saw your full-page ad.” Normally, it's nothing in particular, but it's there. They save it. I don't know how often you come across it. I come across it more. I have clients that don't have cell phones and computers.

I have it, too. They'll call me, and they want me to process an order. They don't even pay online. Are you kidding me? A huge portion of our audience is 60-plus. They're like, “Yeah, I’m not doing it.” I'm like, “I'll be here to help you out.” If I didn't have that ability or have a number and let everything bots do it, I'd lose them.

It's being evolved to blending it all.

I have a true bingo story. I'm not going to say what town I was in. I played bingo once at a VFW hall and I made a mistake. It was an honest mistake, but I was never more scared. I said, “I'm never playing bingo again because I'm not savvy enough. They go in there. They're ready.” One of my friends is like, “Go, come play.” I forget what happened. I didn't call something. It's like poker. I'm not going to play poker because if I lose the table, I can go to war, but I can't handle the pressure of poker or bingo.

Your mistake was going to VFW because they do bingo every week. Did you see the people that had their nomes and their five different daubers?

I should've known right then. They were like, “I went to war with these people. It doesn't matter. This is bingo. This is a whole other thing. Get out.” I was like, “Respect. I'm with you.”

The beautiful thing about this is that we have other brokerages. Some of their agents are sponsoring. From three other brokerages, they have reserved a table for ten. It was funny because, in 2023, some of the Hannas can't come out because I picked a date that they're at a manager's meeting in Ohio. I get it. In 2022, they were there. They were like, “Nicole, I can't believe how many agents you pulled in from other brokerages.” I'm like, “It’s because we can get along. We are competing, but we don't have to not get along.”

That's where people miss the boat because I'll even hear from AJ. Carlisle is small. Everybody knows each other. We compete, but we don't have to be ugly about it. Let's be good human beings. Let's come together for the greater good of the children in our backyard. There have been multiple agents in this region whose children, not Howard Hanna, because it's anyone, have benefited from the money we raise at Hershey or Harrisburg. Let's put all the competition aside and let's have a good time. That's been nice for the area because they're like, “We did it in the spring. We're doing it in the fall. Can we reserve another table? That was great.” They liked seeing these other brokerages there. That's what you want.

Grow A Team: Let's just be good human beings. Let's come together for the greater good of the children in our backyard.

Competitiveness is so ‘90s. It's collaborating. There are plenty of homes, buyers, sellers, and wealth.

There are not plenty of homes.

The way they're building in South Central, PA, come on.

Who can afford them?

That's a whole other episode. I have no idea. I thank God we got in when we did. I couldn't get qualified to buy a home now. We did loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. Last is vision. I remember growing up listening to people like Zig Ziglar and Og Mandino. I'm like, “These guys are visionary. They're different than me.”

My dad was like, “Tracey, vision is two things. Seeing, having a dream, having a goal, and having a plan to get it done. it's vision, but it's means.” I'm like, “That puts it much more into something that Tracey can do.” How do you keep your vision? You went through some transitions. You've grown yourself and your team. How do you craft the future for Nicole and your Howard Hanna team?

First off, every day above ground is a good day. We're going to start with that. Everything changes quickly in every environment and the world, and you don't know. We're in such a volatile time. Things are crazy. Even with this emergency broadcast test, everyone got theories. They’re like, “What's going on that they're testing the whole country?”

Every day above ground is a good day.

My vision is to continue growing as one unit. We're four legs to a table. We're balanced. We got that. We're growing with the same goals to something better and greater. Does that mean selling more real estate? Sure, that's going to come with it. That's great, but building something unbreakable. The one thing we've learned, especially since there are four of us women and we're strong women, is full honesty.

We got that out of the way. With that, we're going to be unstoppable. We want to continue to grow the team into something that people come to us and say, “We want to work with you. We want to be on your team. We see what you're doing, and we want to be part of something better and greater. We don't want to grow a team to have a bunch of people to say we have a bunch of people. We want to grow a team that has the same core morals, values, and beliefs. The client always has to come first, even if that means you may not get a paycheck. You will because you put them first. They're going to be loyal to you and refer you. It's growing our culture.

Howard Hanna has an amazing culture. One of my partners said to a new recruit that we brought on, “I always knew it. I want to bleed green like Nicole. I can't describe it to you until you're here and you feel the culture. You get the loyalty.” I want to have our team together grow in that same culture that Howard Hanna has fostered for many years and has grown into a tremendous company. Have our team follow in that same footsteps to be customer service driven, and the business will come.

I love that you talked about how when you get in there, it finds you. We go out looking for things, but my dad, with life insurance, it found him. When it found him, he went all in. When you dial in and you finally find what you're looking for, even if you were, it's like your heart recognizes it. They recognize the team, the service they're providing, the enabling collective around them, and Howard Hanna with their reputation.

When those things all coalesce, I love that you said you don't know it until you see it and you feel it. Anybody can work anywhere and get a paycheck. You don't need Howard Hanna to have a good life, but you need something to make you feel like you're showing up for a shared vision with a collaborative team that is grounded. It's called value congruence. You can share those values. You get into this higher level of team building. You could do things for people, where it's not just transacting real estate.

It's a lifestyle. Being with Howard Hanna, being on my own, and having the team are lifestyle choices I made with the team. I'm learning to maintain a little bit of life, and still, my clients come first, but being able to say, “I am out of town, but I have these amazing people that can take you out there. I have my computer.” Everyone knows I don't even go to dinner at a restaurant without my computer in the car. I want to find that happy medium and share it with others and see it. Howard Hanna affords that.

Real Estate is a lifestyle.

There have been times when I've been like, “Oh.” That's loneliness and exhaustion. I'm like, “I'm right where I'm supposed to be. I feel it because of what's been instilled.” That's what I want to share with everybody who comes, works, or deals with. In my bio that you read there, I am not great at writing things. You've read my emails. They're a long run-on sentence of a paragraph, but that's okay. It's a running joke in my house, and I've embraced it.

I was on the phone with one of my best friends. She's at another brokerage. I said, “I have to write this. This was my highlights that I put in.” While we were talking, she typed it up and sent it to me. I'm like, “Is this what you believe?” She's like, “It is. I want you to copy, paste, and put that in there.” I'm like, “Okay.” It was nice to see, and I thanked her. I'm like, “Thank you so much. That's what you see in me.”

That's why we have other people because we can't read our own labels. I have my own coaches because I can help others, but you have to have others help you. The other thing is, Nicole, I'm going to get you set up with ChatGPT. It'll write a bio for you that will flip you out.

I'm ready for it.

I'm not kidding.

I need to refresh my bio and a new picture.

It'll do everything. It'll change your life. It's amazing. Nicole, thank you for that. We talked about the beautiful descriptor of vision. As we wrap this up, is there anything else we have not touched on about paying the price of leadership you would like to share with our tremendous readers?

Paying the price of leadership is good and bad. I have come to learn that, even when you're successful, and leadership is many different things, remember that you're human. I have to remember I am human. I cannot be everything for everyone all the time. I want to be. I do, but sometimes I can't. It's like picking where you keep moving forward and what may be left behind. I'm starting to come into that role and not because of the team, because that's where I was going, and the team was the next step to get me there. Whoever you are, stay true to who you are, and success will surely follow.

My husband and I joke because if we didn't have bad luck in a lot of senses, we'd have no luck. He's like, “Can we get one break? I don't understand.” I said, “Do you know what our break is? Our break is that through everything in our relationship, we've come out strong as a partner for many years together.” I was 17, and now I'm 52. We have two amazing kids, and our family is close. I said, “Every time we turn around, it seems like something's going amiss. We can look back and be thankful that we have so much of a blessing with our family unit.” That's where I say, “Keep being true and don't sweat the small stuff.” Sometimes, it gets to be big stuff.

The greatest blessing of all is what you have there. Thank you for sharing that. I was reading Oswald Chambers's The Devotion and he's like, “You have to keep the vision. God will take you and prepare you. You will launch into whatever when he says you're ready.” We don't know it all. It is good to focus on how far you've come versus how far you have to go because otherwise, women like us are achievers. Until our last breath, we’ll be like, “I should have done this.”

I am not going to have what I should have because I don't have a bucket list.

I'm sorry. I want to do this. We're going to keep doing it.

God has a plan. I said to my client friend, “Let go and let God. He's going to guide you. It may not be always the best, but there's a reason you're taking that path.” My stepfather was an alcoholic. I said to her, “Do you know the Serenity Prayer?” He's like, “Huh?” I said, “Let me finish brushing my teeth and I'll do the Serenity Prayer. Do you know how many times a week I say that? It’s because you have to. You can't let every crummy thing that happens consume you. Push forward. Move on. Don’t live in the past. That baggage is heavy.”

Grow A Team: You can't let every crummy thing that happens consume you. Just push forward and move on past that baggage that is heavy.

You need to let it go and keep moving up. That's a tremendous way, Nicole. That's why you're tremendous. How do people get ahold of you? I will put your information in the show notes, but what do you think, website or LinkedIn? What's your preferred method of contact if somebody's looking to hang out with you because you're cool or looking for a tremendous realtor in South Central Pennsylvania? I know everybody is coming to South Central, PA.

My husband says my phone is my pacemaker and my lifeline. You're going to put the link in there, which is great. It comes right to me. It is on 24/7, but cell phone texting is (717) 609-7619, or call the Howard Hanna office in Carlisle and ask for me.

Nicole, I can't thank you enough. It has been such a joy. I learned so much more about you. I already knew a lot. I hope God gives us 45 more years of wonderful friendship and we blow the roof off our dreams and goals together. Thank you for taking the time to share with our readers. I know they got a lot of information and inspiration from you.

Thank you so much for having me on and considering me for this. It is a great honor to be here on your show.

Thank you again, Nicole, and to our readers out there. I want to thank you so much for paying the price of leadership. If you like what you read, please be sure to hit the subscribe button. If you would do us the honor of a review, we'd be thankful. Those reviews mean the world. Other people can tune in and live a tremendous life.

Share with somebody who may need to read who is going through a season of loneliness and weariness how they can truly pay the price of vision and come out on the other side stronger and better. Remember, you're going to be the same person several years from now that you are now, except for two things. The people you meet and the books you read. Hang around with people like Nicole. Connect with her. Thank you so much for being a part of our tremendous tribe, and have a tremendous rest of the day.

Important Links

• Nicole Pearson

• LinkedIn – Nicole Pearson

About Nicole Pearson

Nicole Pearson has been a full-time and full-service realtor for 16 of the 19 years she has resided in South Central PA. Her secret to success is exceptional customer service and relentless hard work. Nicole thrives on being collaborative with the other agents during transactions and assisting new agents while they are learning the business. She loves her career and it shows!

Episode 174 - Connor Boyack - Leaders On Leadership

Leadership isn't about titles; it's about making a meaningful impact in the lives of others. Joining us for this episode is Connor Boyack, the founder of Libertas Institute and author of the Tuttle Twins children's books. Today, he shares his journey from a web developer to a leading advocate for freedom and entrepreneurship. Connor shares how he took the leap of faith and founded Libertas Institute, a non-profit organization that fights for individual liberties, one policy at a time. He also discusses the genius behind the Tuttle Twins series, which has sold over five million copies. Connor shares how the series is more than just “children’s books”—they are introducing kids to the principles of entrepreneurship, economics, and freedom in a fun and engaging way. Connor testifies that you don’t have to lead a huge team or be a CEO to be a leader; anyone can be a leader. It’s all about rising up and wearing out your life trying to do good things for other people. Tune in now.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Connor Boyack - Leaders On Leadership

Welcome to the show, where we pull back the curtain on leadership and we talk with leaders of all ages and stages about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. For this episode, I am tremendously excited because my guest is the one, the only, and the tremendous Connor Boyack. Connor, thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Let me tell you a little bit about Connor. Connor Boyack is the President of Libertas Institute. This is a free market think tank in Utah. In this capacity, Connor has spearheaded a number of successful policy reforms in areas such as education reform, civil liberties, government transparency, business deregulation, personal freedom, and more.

A public speaker and author of over 40 books, Connor is best known for the Tuttle Twins books, a children's series introducing young readers to economics, politics, and civic principles. He is addicted to changing the world for the better, one life at a time. He primarily does this through the non-profit he founded, Libertas Institute, one of the country's most impactful think tanks that helps reform policies in Connor's home state of Utah and across the nation. Connor, I cannot wait for our discussion on leadership.

There's a lot to talk about. Where do we even begin?

First of all, I always like to give people context because people are like, “Tracey, how on earth do you connect with these amazing people?” I got the introduction to Connor through Mike Capuzzi. Mike had me on his podcast. He's the Bite Sized Books creator. I had him on my show. He introduced me to Connor, and Connor immediately got back to me. That's what tremendous people do. I tell people, “As a speaker, the more you speak, the more you speak. For meeting people, the more people you meet, the more tremendous people you meet.”

Let's get started with what it takes to pay the price of leadership. Father wrote a speech many years ago called The Price of Leadership. In it, he talks about the four things that you are going to have to be prepared to give in order to pay the price of leadership. The first one is loneliness. We've all heard that it's lonely at the top, heavy is the head who wears the crown. Jesus was alone a lot. What do you think about loneliness? Could you tell us what that means for you as a leader maybe when you went through a season of that?

A lot of people want to participate in the upside of a business without being there for the downside. It's very easy to see when a company is profiting and doing well. Everyone wants their share. If an entrepreneur or a CEO is massively in debt and they're using their personal credit cards to do payroll, no one else is saying, “Let me bear that burden with you. Let me shoulder the load.” That doesn't happen.

A lot of people want to participate in the upside of a business without being there for the downside.

When I think of loneliness, I think of responsibility. For my nonprofit, we employ 70 or 80 people overall with everything that we're doing. I feel immense pressure to get things done and to get results. People on my team have their own spheres of influence and impact that they're focused on, but I'm the one at the top responsible for seeing all the chess pieces I need to move around. I like to use that spinning plate analogy where there are lots of spinning plates. One over there is getting wobbly, so you got to go give that some attention, and then you got to go to this other one that's wobbly.

It is lonely in the sense that I don't know that anyone in my organization can relate at all to what I experience and how burdensome that is. I'll be on a trip with my family and an idea will pop into my head. It’s something that's urgent and needs to happen that maybe I let slip or something. I'm like, “There's no one in the organization that I've delegated that to yet, but it still has to get done so it falls to me.” I’m like, “Honey, pull over. Let me take care of this quickly on the laptop or something for ten minutes.”

The interruptions and preoccupation in my mind where things are always going, always thinking, and always trying to forecast, look ahead, and seek opportunities is such a unique experience. For that purpose, I have gone to great lengths to associate myself with other people, primarily through EO or the Entrepreneurs Organization that I joined, just to be around people who are similarly situated. They are in different businesses, different industries, and different circumstances but they get it. They are lonely like me, so let’s be lonely together. Let’s at least have a camaraderie. That has helped me quite a bit.

You talked about the downside. Every entrepreneur out there can relate to this. It is what you said about everybody wanting to be a piece of it when it's happy, but in the beginning when it's coming out of your bank account, how much do you love it? When did you start the foundation? Tell me about the lean years. Seventy or eighty is a healthy-sized business. Can you give me how long you were in that time before you got to the tipping point? A lot of our entrepreneurs out there are five or fewer people and trying to grow.

I started Libertas about twelve years ago. At the beginning, it was just me. I had no manual. I had no clue what I was doing. I used to build websites for a living. I felt called by God to go onto this new path. I quit my job, took a big pay cut, and took a huge risk. My mom thought I was condemning my wife to a life of poverty because she saw, “You want to do a nonprofit?” I was making good money being a web developer. I was moving up the ladder and doing all the things. My mom equated nonprofit with being poor. In reality, a nonprofit is a tax classification. That's all it is. You can pay yourself well in market rates and everything if you've got the money.

In the early years, it was very difficult. It was just me. I had no clue what I was doing. I hired the wrong people. I made a lot of mistakes. The first 5 to 6 years were very slow growth. Oddly, a large inflection point for us was COVID. When COVID hit, our organization started firing on all cylinders. We tripled our fundraising. These Tuttle Twins books that you mentioned, we started that in 2014. For six years, 2014 through 2019, we sold a total of about 750,000 books. For a self-published outfit, Mike Capuzzi will tell you, those are good numbers, 750,000 books is impressive for over six years. In 2020 alone, we sold 1.3 million books, almost double the entire past six years.

Our organization, all of a sudden, was getting all this interest and all these families needing help. They are like, “What happened to my country? The freedom that I long took for granted, what's going on? How do I talk to my kids about this? They're hearing weird stuff at school.” We were in the position of “Preparation meets opportunity.” It is the quote that I think about. We had been slogging along for a while, humming along, and doing okay, but then opportunity struck. Sadly, it was a silver lining in a very dark cloud of our shared experience with all that mess. There were some silver linings. For us, it was a big growth period. Our organization has quadrupled in size over the past couple of years, which creates its own complexity in having to figure out how to be a leader.

I'll be very frank with you. I struggle to be a leader because I started this whole organization. People will look at me and say I'm a leader. They'll look at my output. They'll look at all the books I've written and millions of copies sold. They'll look at these external things and tie that to, “He's a leader because he is at the tip of the spear and all these different things,” or whatever.

To me, leadership implies that you're leading a team and that you're intimate with them. You have close relationships with them. My struggle, to be frank with you, is that I started this whole organization to get the work done. I’m passionate about the work, so I feel very tempted to get in there and do the actual work. It’s not just, “I'm a leader and I spend all my time leading people.”

For me, it's that careful balance of how I still meaningfully contribute to the work and satisfy my own personal desire of why I started this, to begin with, while balancing it with the fact that if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. I do want to go far, which means I do need a team. That means I need to tamp down that inclination I have to just jump in, close my office door, head down, and do the work all day long.

I need to realize that I have to come up for air. I have to talk to my team. I have to support them. I have to make sure that they get what they need. It's lonely for me, but it's lonely for a lot of them as well if they're trapped in this role that they don't know how to do it or they don't know what to do. It is about coming up for air and realizing that we've all got our insecurities, we've all got our challenges, and trying to be there more for the team.

You did a beautiful definition of being a leader and transitioning the role of leadership and hitting on the think tank or mastermind group with the EO. It’s brilliant. Let's talk about weariness. We had a pre-meeting before this. You're fighting the good fight. You're fighting a fight that if people were sane, it would not have to be fought. Some of the stuff, you're like, “Am I in the twilight zone? What's going on?” My dad would always say, “There are some people that are doing more than they need to, but the majority of society is going to be doing less. Somebody has to pick up and shoulder the load.” How do you stay at top fighting form?

Our think tank exists to increase freedom. We're changing hearts, minds, and laws. Given that, we're in the political arena for a lot of our work. We're meeting with elected officials. We're battling against other people who have different views and ideas and are trying to get their ideas implemented. It's a constant cage match that requires thick skin for certain.

Also, I joke with people. I say, "I'm in the one industry that has the greatest job security. There will not be political problems and government largesse that we're having to fight against." It's weary for me in the sense that it feels like whack-a-mole a lot of times. It's like, "We solved that problem," but then this one pops up. We whack that one down, and then this one.

Another example that I often share when I think about our country is I feel like we're on the Titanic. We're heading towards the iceberg and there's not enough time to make a detour. These are thoughts that I feel about our country. You look at the financial situation, the debt, the inflation, the economy, the corruption, the bribery, all this censorship, and everything. I feel like we are headed toward an iceberg. There is going to be a collision, which is going to create a lot of calamity. Do I want to rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic and feel like I am doing something productive to then deal with that collision?

I feel like my role is to get as many families on the lifeboats as possible. We can't save the ship. I personally feel like we can't save the ship. The ship is going to have a crash. There is going to be a lot of chaos, but we can save a ton of families in the meantime. We can get them out on those little lifeboats where they can more nimbly get around the iceberg and other obstacles and get to safety. That has value. Even if I go down with a ship, I can save a ton of people. That is the best work that I can imagine.

My faith is I'm a Mormon. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. We have a particular scripture where one of our church leaders talked about the importance of wasting and wearing your life out, bringing to light the hidden things of darkness. You can be wary of working in fast food every day, a meaningless job. All work is meaningful to some degree, but you can feel like it lacks purpose, meaning, and everything like that. There are lots of things that you can do for work.

I find significant meaning in being weary for a good cause. Changing people's lives, helping them talk to their kids about these things, having meaningful conversations, getting more financially prepared, being more aware of their environment, being skeptical of authority and all the lies that we're being told, being civically engaged, and able to be the change they wish to see in the world. That to me is a worthy cause. I've got deep bags that are forming under my eyes and all the things. To me, it is a hallmark of meaningful effort that has made a difference for others. I love being weary when my energy is applied toward productive meaningful causes.

There is good weariness and there is bad weariness. The apostle Paul is my hero. Finish the race and stay through the faith. There is no greater way to be poured out. When you orient it back to your why, that's where you get the intrinsic, divine, and supernatural. We see it throughout the history of people doing that. The Titanic example was brilliant.

We have talked about loneliness and weariness. The next thing my dad talked about was abandonment. Typically, abandonment has a negative connotation, like fear of abandonment. I'm in pet rescue, so that's a big no-no. What he's called abandonment was to stop thinking about what you like and want to think about, maybe arranging deck chairs, and start focusing on what you ought and need to do. It is making meaningful change.

Especially as stuff starts exploding and you get all these people coming out and saying, “I need you to do this. I need you to represent this. I want to partner with this. Can you write a book on this?” I can't even imagine all the different ways and plates that get thrown your way. How do you stay singularly focused on the highest and best use of your calling and time?

That's a powerful question. For a long time, I struggled with that. I have gotten better at it. Before I started all this, I was a web developer. I wasn't an awesome web developer. I was decent. I was good, but I wasn't great. However, what set me apart was my communication ability. I would communicate super well, and I was extremely responsive. When clients would email me or people have questions, I would be on the phone immediately. I would drop what I was doing and I would go communicate. I would get them what they needed. That had a huge benefit in my early years. I built a successful career for myself from being only a good web developer by being an amazing communicator, trying to create value for others, and trying to think about what they needed.

When I transitioned into this role and started my own organization, it was okay in the early years because I was building something from scratch. It was lean and mean or whatever. In recent years, it's been a big problem because I habituated myself into being a yes-man and dropping what my priorities were to get that dopamine hit of responding to somebody else and helping them with what they need.

A lot of times, it was like, “You wrote this thing six years ago.” It’s all the most random things and I would be like, “Let me reply. Let me help you.” I would get that dopamine hit. I've had to retrain myself. I'm not, by any means, perfect at it yet, but I am making sure that it's okay to ignore people. It's okay to say no, which I struggle with.

One of the things that has helped me substantially improve is I'm a member of Strategic Coach by Dan Sullivan. It's a coaching program for entrepreneurs all over the country and all over the world. I've been in it for about two years. They have a process in there called Unique Ability. It’s his model for the things where you get the highest energy, where you get the highest reward, and where you have the highest impact.

They have this whole process that they walk you through where you inventory all your activities. What do you do? Where do you spend your time? What do you have going on? You classify them in different buckets and figure out, "This is my unique ability. I'm competent at this, but it's not my unique ability. I'm incompetent at this stuff, but I still have to do it." They systematize it and then create this process where you can start to identify specifically everything that isn't your unique ability. It is like, "Let's start chipping away at delegating, eliminating, and so forth for all these things."

The result of that process was I have a document that says, “Connor's Unique Ability.” It lists out, “Here are the different things. I'm a strategic freedom fighter and I help try to save the world one life at a time, and all these things. I am a public speaker and author.” It goes into detail. The point is the clarity about my unique ability has allowed me to prioritize where I'm at my best. A lot of what I do with my assistant, even my wife, or my COO is to constantly re-orient things. I’m like, “Am I out of alignment? Are we out of sync? Let's go back and look at this.” Everything creeps in. All the DMs, emails, requests, and everything are always creeping in.

Leader: "The clarity about my unique ability has allowed me to prioritize where I'm at my best."

It is that constant re-orientation. It's like a compass. I fly a lot. If you're flying into a destination, the pilot never goes in a straight line. They have a ton of little tiny course corrections to make sure they are generally on a straight line. It is not a perfect exact line. It's a very slight back and forth, making sure that you're always pointing towards your destination. That's what a lot of this boils down to as well. It is having people in my life who can help support me in re-orienting as a leader to make sure that I'm pointed toward the goals that I want.

You said the word clarity, and earlier you said, “What sets me apart?” I love that tight focus like a laser beam. We could be pretty colors of the rainbow or we could get that tight focus. I love that. I want to check out that Dan Sullivan program. I have heard of Dan. You've been in it for about two years?

Yes. It's awesome. I’d recommend it.

Is it something you stay in forever? Tell me about it.

Dan has this quip where he says his best clients are the ones who have deep pockets and long-term memory loss or something like that. His point is some of these people have been in it for a very long time. The way I think of coaching is as a church for entrepreneurs. That may sound silly, but what I mean is when I go to church, I've heard all those messages before. I've read those scriptures before. I know what they're talking about, but I'm at a particular point in my life where what the speaker is saying or whatever I'm reading lands a little bit differently. Simply being in the pew and hearing that message tied to my life and my current circumstances is this continual impression upon me that's always precise with what I need to hear.

I think of coaching the same way. They've got some awesome tools, but a lot of them are simple prompt questions to get you thinking. They are putting you in little breakout sessions with different groups. None of it is super revolutionary. It's a church for entrepreneurs where you are hearing the right things that you need on a particular cadence.

There are these quarterly meetings so that as you're going through different seasons of life, business, or whatever, you are like, “Thinking about this is prompting a lot of thoughts of what I need to fix here or what I need to do there.” That's how I think about it. It has merit. It has substance. It's important. No one is going to sit there and be like, “This is the most revolutionary thing,” even though it's impactful. The cadence, the frequency, the people that you're with, and all of that has made it very impactful for me.

It's so good you're sharing it with people. I tell other people, “I can't do it for myself. You can't do it for yourself.” There's something about the fact that we have to be with other people. We're meant to be in fellowship and community with one another where somebody is an expository teacher. I love the church for entrepreneurs. We can't read our own labels. I love that you're bringing out that even somebody like you, we all are unfolded by getting in collaboration with other people. There is nothing new under the sun, but the discovery process is until our last breath when we get perfect on the other side. Thank you for that.

We have talked about loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. The last topic my father talked about is vision. We hear about this visionary and you think it is someone with this Mensa IQ or they're born with this dove alighting on their heads or something like that. He said, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done and doing it.” He had this attraction kind of thing, but very strategic and tactical. How do you craft your vision? What's next for your organization?

A couple of recommendations, and then the answer to what's next. I struggled for a while to communicate vision. You have your mission statement and vision statement. When you read most vision statements, they do not help anyone else envision anything. They suffer from a massive curse of knowledge where the people who created them understand what they're saying but they're not meaningful to your vendors, customers, and random people viewing your website.

There is a book called Vivid Vision by Cameron Herold. He is very well-known in the entrepreneurial community. He runs a group called COO Alliance for number twos in organizations. His book, Vivid Vision, is not a long book. It talks about how you create a vision statement that is explicit and detailed. The very simplified version is to imagine yourself traveling three years into the future and then you look around your organization. What do you see? You describe in detail what you see in the aspirational sense. It’s like, “My fundraising team has all these relationships. They've attracted all this interest in our work. My communications team is making daily videos for social media. They are getting a lot of engagement. People are sharing them. Look at my policy team. We're changing all these laws.”

Vivid Vision: A Remarkable Tool For Aligning Your Business Around a Shared Vision of the Future by Cameron Herold

It should be more detailed than that, but the point is to be very detailed by department or by topic in your organization, and then you reverse engineer how to get there. You say, "What's the yearly goal for this to be true in three years? What has to be true this quarter? What foundation do we need to lay this year?" That process has helped me as a leader not only to clarify my own vision but to communicate it.

When I hire people now, before I even hire them, I make them read Vivid Vision and we talk about it. It’s a 3 or 4-page long document. They read it and I say, “Now is your time to ask any questions because this is the direction that we're going. What is unclear to you?” They love it. They are like, “This helps me understand what you guys are trying to do. I want to be a part of this.” Vivid Vision, I highly recommend it. It is by Cameron Harold.

In terms of what we're building, we have a few different facets to what we're doing. We have the policy work where we talked about changing laws. We have these Tuttle Twins children's books that have sold five million copies. It teaches kids entrepreneurship, freedom, and all the rest. We have another program called the Children's Entrepreneur Market. These are like farmer's markets, but they're run entirely by the kids. Mom and Dad can help set it up and take it down, but the kids run the show. We incubated this program in Utah for five years to refine the model. We got a well-oiled machine and we said, "Now we're ready to scale."

This 2023, we added six states. In 2024, we're adding ten more. Within 3 or 4 years, we're going to be fully national with this program, serving hundreds of thousands of kids across the country with entrepreneurial experiences so that they can learn not just money and customer service but marketing, economics, business, and all kinds of stuff.

How do all these things fit together? Policy reform. We have the children's books, the Tuttle Twins. We got the kids’ market. What I have envisioned is what I call the pyramid of impact. The bottom layer of this pyramid is entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship is apolitical. It's not left or right. It's very American. Everyone loves the lemonade stands and everything.

We are going to go across the country as we scale this program up. We are going to serve hundreds, thousands, and millions of families with entrepreneurship experiences. I don't care if they're left, right, blue, red, purple, or whatever. We're going to draw people into entrepreneurship. We are establishing some rapport with them. We're building trust. We're building a relationship. They know who we are.

The next layer of the pyramid is education. The kids who come to our entrepreneur markets get Tuttle Twins books. We send them our cartoons and our curriculum. We have them join our community. We educate them over time on these ideas of free markets and freedom. Moving up the ladder, we get into things like activation or application. Tracey, where do you live? I don't know that I remember.

Harrisburg, South Central PA.

We have markets in the broader Pittsburgh area in Pennsylvania. There are some organizations in Pennsylvania that work with legislators, their city councils, or their school boards. What if five years from now, there's a big legal battle? I'll be silly for a moment. Let's say they're trying to ban youth entrepreneurship. No one may engage in any economic activity until they're eighteen. That'd be a silly law, but let's pretend for a moment.

What if the groups working in your backyard in Pennsylvania could come to us and put out the word and say, “We need help. We need people to come to this legislative hearing. We need people to come to testify. We need people to sign this petition,” or whatever it is. Imagine if I've got this network of let’s say 25,000 families in your state who have been coming to our markets, reading our books, and learning about these ideas. We then present them with an opportunity to activate those ideas like, “You've been learning about it. Here is your opportunity to stand up and do something about it.”

The vision here is we're building out this national community engagement program through entrepreneurship and education so that as we move them up the pyramid of impact, we can then get them up to application and activation. They're applying the ideas that they're learning. They're activated. They're civically engaged. No one is doing this.

Leader: The vision here is we're building out this national community engagement program through entrepreneurship and education so that as we move them up the pyramid of impact.

Those of us who are on the conservative-libertarian side wait to communicate our ideas until people are adults. We let the schools indoctrinate the kids. They often do a very poor job. They turn them into little socialists or social justice warriors. We wonder, “Why don't these people support freedom?” It's because we're not talking to our kids. We are the only game in town trying to build this ecosystem. We are reaching into the rising generation, educating them and their parents, and then shepherding them into the future to help be partners with us on the Titanic to get people on those speedboats and to safety.

I cannot wait to hear more. I'm going to check out what's going on in Pittsburgh. I know we'll stay in touch and hear how this grows. We sure will be thinking about you in our prayers and thoughts and whatever we can do to move that along.

Thank you.

You're welcome. We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Is there anything else in the leadership sphere? While we have our audience who I'm sure is adoring this, is there anything else that you want to share in your years, especially the last twelve, that you want to impart to our audience?

This is what comes to mind. Anyone can be a leader. I used to build websites for a living. Who am I? I have no formal training. I'm up at the Capitol debating with the Attorney General and the Governor's general counsel, sitting in this room, hashing out this policy thing. I built websites for a living. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not an economist. I have no formal background in any of the stuff that I'm doing. I teach kids economics. I have no degree in Economics. My degree is in computers. I believe that everybody can be a leader. If I can do it, so can you.

Maybe my sphere of influence is bigger or smaller than yours. That's not the point. The point is everyone is and can be a leader to a few other people in your circle of influence. The things that you talk and write about, these ideas are relevant to everybody. It's not like, “I'm not a CEO of a large organization. I don't need to think like that.” Everyone can and should rise up. You should waste and wear out your life trying to do good things for other people. In my mind, that's what leadership is.

Everyone can and should rise up. Waste and wear out your life trying to do good things for other people. That's what leadership is.

I love that sense of humility. I've met world-class trailblazers. Not just leaders, but the first or the first. They're sitting there next to me. Had I not kept asking them questions, you never would know. They're like, “I’m a small-town girl from Iowa,” or “I grew up in Las Vegas.” I love that you said that because authentic leaders have that sense of humility. They are willing to step up because they realize you have this compulsion. You're addicted to it. You've caught that fire. Thank you for encouraging everybody else out there because they look at people like you and say, “If I was Connor, I could do this.” You can do it. Your words are a great encouragement to our audience.

That’s awesome. I am glad to hear it.

What's the best way for people to get in touch with you, support Libertas, and get the Tuttle Twins books?

For the Tuttle Twins books, the best place is at our website, TuttleTwins.com, where you can get deals, bundles, and everything together. The children's markets are at ChildrensEntrepreneurMarket.com. Libertas Institute is Libertas.org. I have a fun fact for your audience so they can impress someone at a party. The Statue of Liberty, her name is Libertas. Libertas is the Roman Goddess of Liberty. It’s Lady Liberty. It’s Libertas. The next time, you can impress someone by saying, “Do you know what the name of the Statue of Liberty is?” That's Libertas.org. I am at ConnorBoyack.com.

I can't thank you enough. Thank you for your enthusiasm. Thank you for your clarity, and thank you for coming on and sharing your time with our audience.

I'm happy to. We'll chat soon.

To our audience out there, thank you so much for tuning in. Remember, you'll be the same person five years from now as you are today, except for two things. Those are the people you meet and the books you read, so make sure they're both tremendous. If you like this episode, please hit the like and subscribe button. Leave us the honor of a review. Get in touch with Connor. Get the kids, the grands, and the great-grands one of those Tuttle Twins books. Everybody, please keep having a tremendous life. We are so thankful for you. Have a tremendous rest of the day. Bye.

Important Links

• Connor Boyack

• Libertas Institute

• Tuttle Twins

• Vivid Vision

• ChildrensEntrepreneurMarket.com

About Connor Boyack

Connor Boyack is president of Libertas Institute, a free market think tank in Utah. In that capacity, he has spearheaded a number of successful policy reforms in areas such as education reform, civil liberties, government transparency, business deregulation, personal freedom, and more.

A public speaker and author of over 40 books, Connor is best known for The Tuttle Twin books, a children's series introducing young readers to economics, political, and civic principles.

He's addicted to changing the world for the better, one life at a time. He primarily does this through the non-profit he founded, Libertas Institute—one of the country’s most impactful think tanks that helps reform policies in Connor’s home state and across the nation.

Episode 173 - Dan Moore - Leaders On Leadership

Today’s guest has gone on the path to becoming a tremendous leader. Dan Moore, the Author of “Control, Influence, Accept (For Now): Coping with a Future No One Can Predict,” unpacks wisdom on how shaping your thoughts helps in becoming a tremendous leader. Learning to get excited about your work, talking yourself out of weariness, abandoning the idea that you can do everything, and setting your vision to become the best are the factors that make Dan a successful leader. He also touches on his book “Control, Influence, Accept (For Now).” Further in the conversation, we will also get a glimpse of Southwestern Company. Tune in to this episode with Dan Moore and be inspired by his leadership journey today.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Dan Moore - Leaders On Leadership

I am tremendously excited to welcome my guest, Dan Moore. I want to tell you a little bit about Dan Moore. I have known Dan for decades. Dan has known the Joneses for even more decades. Dan has now retired as the President of the Southwestern Company, which has been building leaders out of young people for many years. For those of our readers out there who have been book boys or book girls, I was one of them, selling books door-to-door in between your summer breaks and colleges. You are going to love this. This is the man. He started with the company as a freshman at Harvard, and he never left. Dan, not many people get it right out the gate. I'm excited to hear all about it. Thank you for being here. Welcome, Dan.

It’s an honor to be here with you. As you said, your family means a great deal to me. This is a great privilege.

My dad loved the Book Kids. That's how I wanted it upselling. He would speak to your sales or conferences at whatever city. He'd host the Southwestern Kids. He and Gloria are at the house. You people out there, I know summer’s over but anytime a boy or girl knocks on your door, you be kind to them because they are out there learning some incredible things in life. As I understand, even with COVID now, Southwestern Company is bigger, stronger, and more profitable than it ever has been. Is that correct?

We certainly had a record year in 2022 and a very close year this year 2023, although it’s too early to call. I'm so grateful for the leadership that we have because it is all about leadership. You get through something like COVID, which for everyone was a huge issue. Many people lost family members and lost loved ones. For many businesses, it was a huge challenge. For our case, going door-to-door, what if we couldn't go door-to-door? That was a really important question, what you might call an existential crisis, but the leadership for our company came through in such a great way. I couldn't be more grateful for the young men and women who made it happen.

I can't wait to hear all about it. Let's get right into it. You knew my father and you knew the two things that he loved to talk about, in addition to God and Gloria, were motivation and leadership. His speech, the Price of Leadership, has been given thousands of times. In it, my father talks about four things that you are going to have to be committed to paying to truly be a leader and not just a leader in name only. The first of those is loneliness. We have all heard the saying, “It's lonely at the top. I used to have friends and then I got in leadership or management.” Can you unpack loneliness for us, maybe a time when you went through it? What counsel would you give to our audience?

I’m absolutely happy to do that. A little bit of background, my upbringing was in a small town in Northern New Mexico. A wonderful family, no real challenges to deal with, did well in school and sports, and was popular. When I got into Harvard, it was a different story. I felt as if I couldn't compete, which I could actually compete but I believed I couldn't. I developed a massive inferiority complex, which covered up some negative behaviors during my first year in college.

Southwestern Advantage came along, and a guy named Martin Fridson stopped his tray in front of mine in the dining hall and said, “Are you a freshman? I'm a senior. I want to chat a bit,” then introduced me to the program. I thought, “This is a chance for me to get back on the success trail.” I don't remember being homesick or lonely at all that first year in college, but once I got to San Antonio, Texas to sell books, your father is the one that got me through that first period of loneliness.

I was sitting on a street corner feeling sorry for myself because the night before, I'd been under the street lamp looking at my map. Some local guys came by drinking beer and throwing beer cans at me and thought it was funny. I sat there feeling sorry for myself, and I pulled out the book they gave us in sales school called Life is Tremendous.

Life is Tremendous

When your father wrote in that book, “The first Law of Leadership is learning to get excited about your work.” I remember thinking, “That's one thing, Charlie, but you got a really cool job. I'm sure. I'm a door-to-door salesman.” He said, “Not the job you wish you had. The job you have now. That's not the same as working because I know I work myself out into oblivion half a dozen times. It's getting excited about your work.”

There's a cartoon of a guy with a stack of paperwork on his desk this high. He was all excited. I jumped up at that moment. I said, “He's right. I have got to get excited about what I'm doing right now.” It's not being as lonely. Your father got me through that very first event. That was 1974. One of the most important things that I have upstairs in my library is his portrait that your father sent me about a month before he passed away.

He said, “My beloved Dan, Acts 20:24 Charles “Tremendous” Jones. Your father's counsel, advice, and guidance were essential to my younger times and getting through those lonely periods. One thing that I have been learning over the years is that each time we have an opportunity to move up, we don't get moved up before we are ready. We get moved up because people think we can do it. Even if you don't think you can do it, if we prepare ourselves along the way, we can be the effective leader that we want to be.

One of the things that your dad wrote about in the loneliness part is that at every level, you are going to be lonely if in fact you want to be a leader. By definition, the leader is ahead or stands out a little bit differently. Loneliness in the company is almost every different stage of this journey that we are all on. When he says, “The first price of leadership is loneliness,” I remember experiencing as a first-year leader, as a student leader, and as a sales manager going between campuses trying to talk to students about working with us.

Nobody wanted to work with me that summer. I remember crying and breaking down in front of my new wife. She said, “What are you so upset about?” I said, “I don’t think I can do that. I can't do this. I'm so lonely. I'm working so hard.” As a newlywed, she's the only one that got it, but the fact of the matter is loneliness means we are going to do something a little different. We are going to step away from other people, and hopefully lead in an effective way.

When I first became president of our company, it was a huge honor. The man that had it before me, you know well, Jerry Heffel. Jerry said to tell you hello as well. He and I spoke by phone. The very first thing I did was approach one of our top sales leaders. I said, “I sure need your help. I would love it if you take over the sales function.” He said, “Actually, I'm getting ready to resign.”

My very first blow was realizing, “This guy I thought I could partner with is not going to be part of the team now.” It was a real blow to my confidence, but that's when I realized this is what leaders do. It's okay to feel lonely. What we have to do at that moment is hug our mission so tightly and believe in it so strongly that the loneliness eventually dissipates to different levels. That's what's hit me about this issue of loneliness.

I don't know what to say, Dan. You are talking about how sometimes loneliness is self-imposed. When you went to Harvard the first year and then you think, “We are not good.” We have ostracized ourselves so that self-imposed loneliness, but then also talking about loneliness stepping out. What makes you a leader and not a follower is stepping out. I love that, hugging the mission. Charles would have loved that too as a big hugger.

Dad talked about that in Life is Tremendous. You are going to have some of your great years and next, you are going to have your worst year. The only thing we never talk about is productivity or getting back on track. Go back to your purpose and why. When you talk about hugging your mission, that's what always brings it back. Thank God you had a wife that didn't coddle you and tell you, “Come cry on my shoulder.” He talks about that too. He was like, “Gloria was like, ‘We have got kids. You have got to get back out there and get to work.’” He's like, “If you have a wife that says ‘Hey and clocks are ticking,’ be thankful.” I'm glad she was there for you to help be that sounding board for you.

Tell Jerry I said hi too. This is going way back. Thank you for sharing that Dad said that. He said that if you can't get excited about the job you are doing now, forget about the job you are going to have because it's easy to get excited about the things we like to do, but that doesn't happen that often in life. Most of the time, you are going to be doing things that you don't want to do, and if you can get excited about them, that's a secret to success. How many years were you with Southwestern before you took over as the President?

Let's see, I started in 1974. I became president in 2007, so whatever that would be. Quite a few years.

For our audience out there, timing. As you said, Dan, you will come into the spot when people think you are ready to come into the spot. I know some people want to get there, jump steps or jump the ladder, but sometimes it takes decades, and that's okay, just stay the course. That's phenomenal. I love it.

The next step my father talked about is weariness, and you have alluded to some of that. He's like, “You are going to be working with some people who are doing way more than they should, a lot that are doing way less than they should, and it's tiring.” A lot of people just tap out because I can't do it anymore. How do you deal with weariness and stay in your top form, Dan?

Most of it has to do with self-talk. In other words, we talk ourselves out of doing our very best much more often than we talk ourselves into doing our very best. I have learned over the years anytime I say, “I'm tired.” I need to put it in perspective and realize I'm really not. I got a nice home, air conditioning, and a fine car. There are people that have none of those things. They get up every day and do their job. They do the best they can for the family. They try everything they can to move forward. I'm really not that tired.

That's a breakthrough in the way we think about it ourselves. We can feel legitimately physically weary, emotionally and mentally. Sometimes even spiritually weary, but those are the times when the Lord said, “Lean into me. I will make sure I never forsake you. You will never be alone.” That weariness can go away because he said, “I will give you rest.” When we have that feeling in our hearts, we can breathe deeper. “One more demo, one more call, one more thing, one more memo, one more presentation.” We can do one more. Always we can do one more.

You talk about your faith, and I am aware of that. How do you dial that in? Do you start the morning with that? Do you do devotions? Do you Sabbath? How do you stay with the Creator who can give us the power that we need to do the things that we need to do?

I spent the first twenty years of my life not being aware of that at all. Not even knowing him. It was my fourth summer on the field that through the influence of the sales manager who shared his story with me that I finally realized this is what I need in my life and my eternity. At that moment, when I accepted Jesus into my life as my savior, things didn't become easier. I had my hardest year in the business ever after I made that decision.

As a young naive person, I thought, “Now that I'm a Christian, everything is going to be easy.” Wrong. He doubled down at that point. We know that for the first book of James, the trying of our faith makes patience, so we should count it all joy. I love the word joy. Every morning when I wake up, I have my first thought. It used to be my first thought was, “I wish I could sleep another hour.” My older brother passed away at 58. My baby sister passed away at 46. When my brother died, I woke up and said, “I'm now an orphan and an only child but I'm still here.”

The trying of our faith makes patience. We should count it all as joy.

Every day from that point until this point, my first thought of the morning is, “Thank you. I'm grateful I have got another day.” It's how I started my day, then I might say, “I wish I could sleep another hour.” Leaning into that thankfulness, gratitude, and sense of “I have got this opportunity. Let me use it as well as I can.” It's a big one. It helps overcome weariness too.

I love to use the word orphan. When I lost Gloria years ago, I didn't have children and both my parents were gone. I remember somebody telling me, “Now you are like an orphan.” I was like, “I can't believe you said that because now I can't get this out of my head.” That is what Christ said. He goes, “I'm going to leave you and you are going to be orphans but not for long because I'm going to send you the comforter and the advocate and the Holy Spirit.”

You lean into that, like you said, with your eternity. Now, I play my inheritance and I know I'm going to see my family on the other side and my brother Jerry who I lost. Otherwise, it is a little bit, when you finally hit that and go, “I'm alone,” then you are like, “No, you are not alone. That's what Satan wants you to think.” Thank you so much for sharing that. That tender memory. The next thing he talked about was abandonment. I'm a big pet rescue person so abandonment is a very bad word and fear of abandonment is a bad thing but Charles talked about abandonment in a sense of pruning and hyper-focus.

I can remember him telling me, “I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success. Every day, I have to abandon what I like and want to think about and do in favor of what I ought and need to.” You have touched on this before. I'm sure in your role so many new ideas and wonderful things. You are crafting the business for the future, so you always have to be open but you have to be very tightly focused on what your zone of gifting is and what you are calling is for the organization. How do you abandon all the stuff that you shouldn't stay focused on?

That's a difficult challenging question about which many books have been written, I'm sure. In my mind, the important thing is to realize that every single individual human being has limits. When we view ourselves as unlimited in our ability, we are not even telling the truth because we all have limits. We wouldn't have associates, colleagues, younger people, and people who want to move up and want to learn things, we limit them by having that belief. That sense, “I have got to do this. I'm the only one that can do this.” Even though that sounds contradictory the leader is only a person, the leader is always looking to the people around them and giving them opportunities to fail, chances to grow, and opportunities to fail.

Tremendous Leader: We're not even telling the truth when we view ourselves as unlimited in our ability because we all have limits. We wouldn't have associates, colleagues, and people who want to move up and learn things. We limit them by having that belief.

I had to abandon the sense that I had to do everything myself. I can remember when I hit that point. It was in the mid-'80s. I was trying to lead a team of people. Down the organization a bit. I was struggling with lots of things and I had this little plaque on my desk that said, “I will do it.” One of my alumni came in, he said, “That's a lot like my sign.” His sign was different. His sign said, “It can be done.” Now the difference between I will do it, which is very self-centered and it can be done is a huge difference.

I had to abandon the idea that I'm the only guy that has any brains. I'm the only guy who didn't get it done and give other people that chance to grow. As a leader, I suppose my main goal was always to help people have resources, which means listening ears and some guidance, but never trying to do their job for them. First of all, I wouldn't do it as well as they could do it. Every time I'd say, “This is what I want. That's how I want it done.” It was a huge mistake.

Instead, I said, “This is what I want done. How do you think you could do it?” They come up with the most brilliant, amazing, clever, and creative ideas in the universe. Abandonment to me was abandoning the idea that I'm some wonder boy. I'm going to get it done. It couldn't be farther from the truth. That was a big lesson and hopefully, I have been able to continue that throughout the whole course of my career.

Have you ever heard the poem The Indispensable Man?

I don't think I have.

I came across it. It came out many years ago The Indispensable Man. Every time I bring it up, people are like, “I have heard it.” Very much the same thing. It's all about keeping your ego in check because we do the best we can but do you know what? If you are gone, the world will continue spinning on its access. Do the best you can and it's about pouring into the lives of others. It's a very poignant thing that helps you remember and keep it.

Your comments reminded me of my favorite patent quote, “Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.” I love what you talked about there, allowing them to bring the creative stuff and it can be none. Not all do it because that's how we do this. That's how we burn ourselves out. Nobody likes working for somebody if the boss is going to do everything.

Not only that. It causes people to lose their hope that they have a future here. It’s giving that chance to grow is so important.

Thank you for that. The last thing my father talked about was vision and growing up with all these visionaries. I was always like, “They have different blood coursing through their veins or they are wired differently.” He's like, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done. There's this visualization or attraction then doing it, the action piece.” I'm like, “I can do that.” It was always very encouraging to me. What does vision look like for you? How do you continually look to the future for the best possible version of what you and your enterprise can be?

To me, vision is often mistaken for financial goals. People would say, “This is our five-year vision to be an X million-dollar company or to be this size company.” Maybe that's a financial goal. It's not a vision. A vision is a state of future affairs that we'd like to be able to see and all the financial dimension is an important part of that. There's the people's illness so much more important. Years ago, sometime before I was born, the company developed a motto, “Building character and young people since 1868.”

Often, we mistake vision for financial goals. A vision is a state of future affairs that we'd like to see.

That's where I grew up under. That was a powerful mission statement. An important one. We found over the years students would become maybe a little more cynical, and a little bit more influenced by outside people. They said, “What's this character stuff all about anyway? I don't need character. I need a good resume.” We modified it and we decided that the whole key is can we be the best organization in the world? Not the biggest. Not the largest. Not even the fastest-growing.

It can be the best organization in the world at helping young people develop the skills and the character they need to achieve their goals in life. That vision has always been the core at least as long as I have been in leadership at the company. To me, vision means seeing something big, is your dad talked about SIBKIS, See It Big Keep It Simple. The keep it simple part was we'd always ask the question after we make some big decision or in the process make a big decision.

Is it going to help our young people achieve their goals in life or is it something we think is a shiny good idea? It won't help them achieve their goals in life. It doesn't fit our mission. If we don't fit our mission, our vision is never going to happen. The vision of being the best organization in the world is a tough one because there are some amazing organizations out there helping young people.

We are going to keep working, keep striving, and the team that's there after me. It's the best people we have ever had in the world. The new president of the company is a young man you know very well, named Dave Koser. Dave is somebody who's been in the business longer than I have been. What a blessing it was when he stepped up that leadership and said, “Yes, I will take that role.”

Thank you for sharing that on vision and I love that. It keeps you purpose-oriented in everything. Is it going to help our young people achieve their goals? I wrote that down because I'm on several college boards and stuff and that's a great thing to say. I know it may look good from our level, but if you are not helping the young people achieve their goals, that's a great qualifier.

That's a litmus test for any decision that you make if you are working with any organization like that.

The raising the future leaders. We did loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. I want to open it up now because you have laid some incredible truths and wisdom on us. Thank you so much. I got about a page and a half a note scribbled down. What else do you have going on? You have a new book coming out and I'd like to talk about your book. I'd like you to share with our readers about the Southwestern Company in case they want to get involved or anybody out there reading or has kids grandkids or great-grandkids. What's next for you now that you have retired? What does the next chapter look like for Dan? First of all, could you tell us about your new book coming out?

Happy to do that. The idea of a book is something that probably a lot of people think about over the course of their lives and somebody says, “You ought to write a book.” I got serious about it years ago. I remember what happened. The presentation I developed over the years for students primarily on how to prepare for a future that nobody can predict. What it had to do with is the rate of change so incredibly fast. Many students would start a subject as a freshman in college.

Control, Influence, Accept (For Now): Coping with a Future No One Can Predict

By the time they are senior, it's already obsolete. This rate of change created all kinds of scare and uncertainty. What am I going to do for a living someday? Everything's changing so fast. What hits me all the time is it's internal qualities to get us through anything. It's true in your background in the military as the internal qualities that get people through in business. The internal decision that keeps a marriage together. The internal factors to keep a family growing.

To me, the internal part was can I become more self-aware? Can become more effective in dealing with people? Can I be more resilient and be more emotionally flexible? I began to give this presentation on campuses. Students always enjoyed it. Occasionally, they’d invite their parents to come. At the University of Colorado Boulder, I gave a presentation. I still remember the evening. We were in the environmental science building and a young man came and said, “I want to meet my dad. My Dad's here.” The dad walked up, shook my hand, and said, “Have you written this into a book?” I said, “No.”

He didn't smile at all. He said, “You should,” and he walked out. That's planted the idea in my head. The next year, I said, “I will start writing it,” and I thought, “This can be easy.” Two years later, I have only written two pages. A colleague challenged me and said, “Dan, I want you to finish that book this year.” Maria and I went to her home. She grew up in the beautiful Azores Islands which are part of Portugal, in the middle of the Atlantic. We took a long break and I remembered taking out my laptop, sitting in a coffee shop, and started writing 80% of it.

The whole key to that is understanding that if we can develop these internal skills and internal characteristics, we are going to be better off in life. The name of the book deals very much with something we all learned when we started selling books. Do you remember the phrase control which you can control and don't worry about the results? I want to sell books so that we can control certain things. Control our effort and the number of demonstrations we make.

We can control only a few things truly in our lives. Even our attitude. We always think, “I can control my attitude.” If you can do that, you are a better person than I am because I have learned over the years things can throw me off my stride, left field, a curve ball comes in and knocks me in the head. We can influence our attitude. We can certainly influence other people. Most of the things that happen in the world are things that we can either control or influence.

As I looked at people hitting their heads against that wall over and over, it occurred to me if they'd spend some of that emotional energy maybe on some things they could control and more on things they could influence. The things they need to accept for now, put them on the side. That's the title of the book, Control, Influence, Accept (For Now): Coping with a Future No One Can Predict.

I’m very excited about it. I had tremendous feedback from various editors, advanced readers, and people who said, “This would be better, do this and this.” It’s a collaborative effort there. The book is due out on October 31st, 2023. It is available for pre-order through Amazon and Barnes & Noble. I'm mostly excited because of some young people. I regard young people as anybody on this side of the Earth, by the way. I still think I'm a young person. It can continue to grow throughout our lives. Whatever those lives mean. This can be worth it to us. That's what the book is all about.

That's so important. I love that and that's what Southwestern taught me. It's about processes and habits. People have these wild outcome goals. Outcome goals of the hardest because there's so much beyond your control but the procedures and the processes, how many doors you knock on, how well you prepare, and all that stuff. That's the stuff that I can control. If you follow that then success. You will hit you will hit the outcome goals.

Very important because people are losing that. A lot of the divisiveness is, “They got it at the cost of you.” It's like, experience and opportunity are equitable but you are bringing these truths out there. These are immutable truths for people to understand. Charles will always say, “Nothing works unless you are working.” Teach them how to work in a manner that brings the goals that they are looking for. I can't wait. Very exciting. We will put the links out there for that too.

Thank you for that.

Now, talk about Southwestern Company.

I’m grateful that Marty Fridson and my student manager took the time to seek me out in the dining hall. A little bit of background again. At Harvard, the dining halls were closed for the freshmen on weekends. The weekends when we ate in the upper-class dining halls. Most freshmen did not feel very welcome by these upperclassmen. When Marty came across this tray and said, “You are freshmen. Mind if I join you?” I learned later that was his style of prospecting for team members that he wanted to have but there was something about Marty that hit me as unusual and a bit different.

As he told me about the program, I realized, “This could be something great for me.” The problem was, I didn't know how to sell. I talked about it and thought it was the dumbest thing that ever heard. Some of them said, “If you do that, you are a bigger idiot than I think you are.” I decided not to go but Marty was pleasantly persistent. Invited me over to the meeting and I met a man named Jim Calder. Jim became my district sales leader.

Less than ten minutes into the meeting, I knew that Jim had something I needed in my life. I met another young leader named Sam Wee. Sam became one of my most important friends and mentor my entire lifetime. That's the essence of the Southwestern program. Although, the product line has changed over the years. When the company started back in the 1850s, it was entirely a Bible publisher. Now while those do sell some Bible-related products, they are only about 3% or 4% of total sales. Everything else is educational products for famous kids.

The product line can change. We are very automated now. We have brilliant apps and brilliant websites that people can subscribe to continue to great educational input for their kids. The best books we have ever had in our history are in the line now. The essence of the program is still about a young person becoming everything they can be with mentorship, guidance, and stripping away all their background and experiences, their social media, and their image. It’s just me face-to-face with a person at their home. It's the most elemental form of communication and developing ourselves.

That program continues in a big way this year, last year, and every year in the future. Over the years, we have had many students from around the world participate. About half the students who have participated now come at their own expense from Europe to be here in the summertime and do this. It's just been tremendously gratifying to see the company change, adapt and grow while standing true to that whole mission. It's an amazing thing.

People can reach out even to host a student to come over to sell, correct for the summer?

Almost everybody stays with a host family in the summertime.

For the readers out there, if your kids are grown or already out on their own. Now, do all college campuses have this?

All college campuses could have but we don't have every presence. We are not present in every school. There are about three 3,000 colleges in the US alone. Not going to be at all of those schools because of online access. We get many applications from people all over the country. As colleges may not currently have a presence. When that student gets started, they can then build their presence.

That's the thing about it. They start you out then the next year you bring your team. As I said, you don't stay in your hometown. You go to a different area. If you are like, “My college doesn't have it for the kids.” Still check out Southwestern because you will go to a different area that does have a presence and a force, correct? Is that still the way it works?

That's right. The name of the company is now Southwestern Advantage. The reason for that is Southwestern itself is diversified into many different companies. It’s now called the Southwestern Family of Companies. Southwestern Advantage is the name of the student program to convey beautifully, what it's about, it gives students an advantage throughout the rest of their lives. The families that buy the products have an advantage for their families as well. SouthwesternAdvantage.com is where people can find out more about the program.

Everywhere I go, every book I publish including my one coming out, I always talk about Southwestern because Dad told me, “If you can go out there and cold call and not going to door and make a connection with somebody who goes, ‘That's one of the hardest things in life you are going to have or have to do.’ If you learn how to do that early on.” I'm like, “Good. Let's get that hard stuff out of the way.”

I remember like you said that mano to mano that one-on-one how to connect with somebody and stay persistent when you are getting door slam. I was so thankful that when I went into the military after Southwestern, people were like, “Aren't you scared or getting yelled at by the general?” I'm like, “I sold bookstore to door. I'm tough. They I got nothing on me. I can sell on heat and get chased by dogs and turkeys. You don't even worry about me. I got this.” What's next? You retired from Southwestern, what's next for you?

I’m still very active with the company in certain ways as an advisor and consultant. One of the companies we started in the UK in the year 2002 is called SBR Consulting. It's a sales enablement consulting company. I'm still involved with them. I have a training program coming up in New York, where I will deliver training to some clients. I hope to stay involved with that company as long as they will have me. They are doing tremendous work helping the corporate world develop many of the same principles, skills, and attitudes young people develop in this program.

We have also got another coaching company based here in Nashville called Southwestern Consulting. It says SBR Consulting is based in the UK. It used to be part of Europe. They got a big office in Prague in the Southwestern Consulting here. I try to give them advice and help whenever they seek it out. They are doing fantastic things. I'm no longer on the board of directors, but I'm very interested in what happens with our company. Henry Bedford, our CEO and Chairman, is a brilliant leader and close touch.

As much as I can support the students, I will continue to do that. In retirement, the whole goal for me and Maria is to focus, first of all, on our personal wellness physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally because again, my family didn't live very long. My siblings did not practice good health habits. As long as God has blessed me with a decent brain, I have an obligation to stay healthy enough to use it to try to help some people along the way.

We are prioritizing that. My wife is a yoga instructor. Yoga has helped both of us from a spiritual development level as well as a physical development level. Learning how to let go and let God is such an important aspect of all of that. Keep that going and keep my running going. My daughter talked me into doing my 25th half marathon. That's going to keep rolling as well. We are doing a different kind of travel. We’ll slow down a little bit and get more involved in the culture of a place. I plan to continue that. With any success at all with the book, hopefully, the message will continue to spread and grow as I have a chance to travel, speak, and share these ideas with people. In the meantime, I'm going to grow into every day, live into it, see what happens, and do the best we can to be responsive to what God wants us to do next.

I love that. For our readers out there, you can reach out to him or if you have a sales team, you have heard the wisdom that he has to offer in his years of experience. If you can motivate college kids to change their life, he can help motivate your sales team. I will make sure that gets out there. Dan, thank you so much for reaching out. You have always been a constant presence. You guys still support me. You buy our books, my books and Life is Tremendous. I'm so thankful that you keep doing and raising the bar on helping young people and for what you’ve meant to my father and to me over the years that I have been back.

I want to thank you for that. I wanted to share thoughts with everybody, first of all. Your dad had so many characteristics that were incredibly moving and powerful. You can distill a lot of his words in a couple of key lessons. One is the importance of humor. He used humor not only with people and groups, but in his own life. His ability to laugh at himself and laugh at his own troubles and his own mistakes and weaknesses was legendary.

It made all the rest of us feel like we could do something as well. He had a unique style of humor as you well know. I got to tell you about the very first time I met him in person. I'd read his book many times and they said, “Charlie Jones is coming to town. I’m going to have him speaking sales school.” I was so excited. I went to shake his hand. He gave me his big bear hug. Hugging me. Your father's a big man. He was probably 6’3” and hugging me, squeezing the life out of me.

I did what anybody did, I hugged him back. He whispered on my ear and said, “Don't hug back. Act like you are trying to get away. People are beginning to talk.” It was that tremendous sense of humor and that ability to help people just feel good about themselves. He was talking to one of my colleagues one time and he's like, “Charlie, let's get together for breakfast.” Charles said, “Okay. 8:00.” He said “Yes. If I'm not there, it means the rapture came and you weren't saved.”

The other thing he said to me about door-to-door before I went out my first summer in Princeton Bluefield West Virginia right on the border there, he said, “Tracey, if you see they are going to shut the door, put your head through the door, not your foot, because that way, when they go to slam the door, you can keep talking.” I'm telling you, when I would see they’re coming back, rather than cry, which happened from time to time, I would bust out a laugh and think about Dad saying, “No, just keep talking.” He did have a sense of humor.

He also had a tremendous love for music. He spoke about music therapy forgetting the difficult times in our lives. At the farm, outside Harrisburg, he had an entire little house dedicated to music, an old player piano, every kind of instrument under the sun. It didn't matter if you could play it or not. He said, “Pick this up and blow into it. Let's sing together. Let's sing some hymns.” He was amazing with the power of music. It can change our spirit and change our direction. It can move us in great ways. It's also been said that whenever we sing, we pray twice. God was the inventor of music. The best songwriter that ever lived was King David. When we sing, we pray twice. Your father was big in sharing that with all the rest of us.

The power of music can change our spirit and direction. It can move us in great ways.

Probably the third thing that I want everybody to remember about your father is that he was an imperfect human being, but he was a perfect example of being a human being. Imperfect because everybody's imperfect, but he was a perfect example of that. He inspired and developed so many people. He's a huge impact of my life and my son, Daniel. He and Charlie connected when Daniel was eight years old.

He mentored Daniel, tutored him, and helped him learn some things. Daniel rewrote Life is Tremendous for a younger reader and sent a copy to your dad. Your dad said the most glowing note. He sent him a $50 check out of nowhere. A cool connection that they had. Thank you, Tracey, for continuing that on, and Charles Tremendous, I know you are there.

Thank you so much. Dan, I can't thank you enough. My soul is full. I'm encouraged. You taught me so many wonderful things, and I'm excited for the book to come out. I'm excited we reconnected at this stage. Keep on doing what you are doing.

You do the same.

I sure will. To our audience out there, thank you so much for the honor of taking time out of your schedule to tune into the show. Please be sure to check the links, reach out to Dan, and stay in touch with him. Be sure and pick up his book. If you don't have a copy of Life is Tremendous, make sure you get a copy of that too.

We would love it if you would hit the like and subscribe button, and the honor of a review to share with other leaders who are going through how this message has blessed you. That would be absolutely tremendous. To all our readers out there, remember you will be the same person years from now that you are today except for two things: the people you meet and the books you read, so make them both tremendous. Have a tremendous rest of the day, everyone. Thanks again. Bye-bye.

Important Links

• Dan Moore

• Southwestern Company

• Southwestern Advantage

• Life is Tremendous

• Control, Influence, Accept (For Now): Coping with a Future No One Can Predict

• SBR Consulting

• Southwestern Consulting

About Dan Moore

Dan Moore recently retired as President of the Southwestern Company, which has been building leaders out of young people for 150 years. He started with the company as a freshman at Harvard and never left!

Episode 172 - Lisa Michener - Leaders On Leadership

Leadership is often seen as a rapid journey towards perfection. However, the most effective and influential leaders know that being present and embracing their entire selves – including their flaws – is the way to go. In this episode, Dr. Tracey Jones chats with Lisa Michener, a chief communications and marketing officer for more than a decade. Lisa talks about embracing moments of loneliness as growth opportunities and why having downtime should never be seen as a sign of weakness. She also shares the role of her mother in shaping her personal vision, the importance of humility in leadership, and the power of saying no in building a more fulfilled version of yourself.

---

Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Lisa Michener - Leaders on Leadership

I have an incredibly special guest. Her name is Lisa Michener. Welcome. I want to tell you a little bit about this fabulous one you’re about to read. She is the Chief Communications and Marketing Officer at a large financial planning firm and has been there for many years. Lisa is a lover of all things food, an avid horror movie fan, and a stand-up comedy enthusiast. She loves to travel. She adores her four rescue kitties at home, and you cannot pry her off the dance floor if you try. I love it. I didn’t know about you. That’s awesome. We must connect in person. She also loves spending time with family and friends, which is their most valued venture of all these. She tries to embody an attitude of gratitude every single day. Lisa, thank you for the honor of getting to share with my readers.

Thank you so much for having me. The honor is mine.

You’re welcome. I like to tell people how we connected because, as my father said, you’re going to be the same person five years from now except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. Lisa and I connected at the beginning of July 2023. I’m on the American College of Financial Services, their veteran board. I’m also an adjunct professor for their CLF or Chartered Leadership Fellow program. Lisa signed up to take the CLF because she wanted to hone her leadership chops. I talked to her about the show and she graciously agreed to come on. I couldn’t be more excited.

I am excited for this. At first, when you mentioned it I thought, “Maybe I want to do that. I wonder if she was serious and wanted a guest from our class.” I asked and here I am. I love it.

Readers, Lisa said yes. That’s one of the things that leaders do. You’re going to get a lot of opportunities out there. I’ve had great people like teachers, and people say, “I don’t know if I have anything to offer,” and I’m like, “You have so much to offer.” I’m excited to know your perspective because we have a lot of different people on here. My father loved the industry that you were in. He retired from it. My husband is retired from it. The financial planning industry is fabulous because it enables people to live out and play for their dreams.

My dad talked about the price of leadership. Leadership and motivation are the two things he spoke about the most, and he has a book in one of our little Life-Changing Classics’ called The Price of Leadership. In it, he talked about four things that every person who is truly a leader, not just a leader in name only, is going to have to pay. The first of those is loneliness. That’s not a thing we like to hear. It’s lonely at the top or heavy is the head that wears the crown. Can you share a time in your life where you perhaps went through a season of loneliness, what you did about it, and some words of counsel that you might give to our readers?

It’s funny how timing in the universe and everything aligns sometimes. The past years have probably been the most I have spent alone in this sense of just me and kids in that capacity, transcending that from a personal standpoint to a business standpoint, and a lot of things feedback to relational when you are in a business that is very fast-paced and things can go quick.

From a loneliness perspective, it can be both. It can be positive self-imposed loneliness to where you’re forced to be alone with these thoughts, visions, exciting ideas, and things like that. It’s not always from a negative standpoint. We hear the word loneliness and have this negative connotation to where it’s not okay to be by yourself sometimes and it’s not okay to explore things that you enjoy things, relax, and find beauty with.

From a personal standpoint, I’ve had a lot of loneliness but from a positive perspective that was forced upon me. I didn’t choose to walk into it first, and it’s been one of the greatest blessings. From a business standpoint, it is also getting to explore a little bit more in this leadership category and a little bit more of the possibilities because, a lot of times, we feel that we are in this box where we don’t have anywhere to go once we either level up in a position or do what we can. That’s not always true in many positions.

I know a lot of places where there isn’t a lot of room for growth or there’s lateral movement and things, but from an internal perspective, I feel like loneliness at times can push us to that next level. Even speaking about this opportunity, on this show with you, I didn’t know if I could do it or I couldn’t do it. Until you push yourself a little bit out of those boxes and of what you can and can’t do, that’s where that growth, beauty, and magic start to happen.

Loneliness can push you to the next level. It brings you out a bit of your box and shows you what you can and cannot do. That’s where the magic of growth happens.

I feel like loneliness is given a bad rep in some ways. In reading those four headlines, that’s what I thought in your father’s book before I delved into it. I thought, “These are some negative items,” until I stopped and thought about it. I was like, “I am learning so much from personal loneliness in such a positive way that I don’t think that that’s talked about enough. I don’t think it’s setting up on how much we have within us.”

There are many beautiful wonderful people around us and nobody ever takes their place, whether it’s friends, family, or people you meet anywhere, but from the standpoint of loneliness and getting to be alone with yourself is so much. There is so much beauty in that as well, growth, and translating that into your business and your every day because a lot of it isn’t based on your ideas for black-and-white metrics and things like that. It’s also the people around you, how you come better, and looking for betterment and growth. That is how people are going to receive you and it goes from there.

Readers, if you’re in a season of loneliness, Lisa said it is so beautiful, “If you’re lonely, you’re doing something wrong.” Maybe you’re going to be one of those one in a million people who always has the right people around you your whole life, “Mary is the right person and has perfect kids and bosses,” then there’s the rest of us. We’ve talked about that. What are you going to have to do?

I have a friend going through a personal life. She’s like, “I don’t know how I’ll handle being alone.” I’m like, “Having been alone for many years, it is a time of beauty, where you can get to know yourself.” You’re in CLF and you’re talking with other leaders. We unpacked some pretty heavy things. There’s always somebody else going through it to help let you know you’re not alone. As you said, it’s the chance you get to work on yourself and say, “With all that noise going on, otherwise, it’s such busyness.” That’s not the good side effect of what we need to get to our purest voice.

A lot of times, we don’t choose to walk ourselves into that season of our life. You believe in God, whether it’s the universe or whatever. As I have needed a couple of times in the past couple of years, you need to pick up, shake off, turn around, spin around, and drop back down a little bit peace and a little bit of a bumpy landing to start to unravel those internal thoughts that can lead to such.

In saying yes to this show, loneliness also means you were the one who stood out and said yes. Technically, you’re lonely because, of all the people that got asked, and I asked a lot of different people, loneliness is sometimes you may be the only one that says, “I’ll do it. I’ll volunteer to do it.” It’s something about a mass to stick together. I call it Mount Majority. Let’s say Mount Majority, everything is good here, but you step out and you may be the only one. You may be alone, but that’s different than negative loneliness because somebody’s got to step up and say yes, and you did.

Thank you for asking me. That’s one of the things your dad touched on saying in the committee. He referred to it as the committee. I like everything to be a double-edged sword. In my life, I always say, “Choose your heart. There are pros and cons to everything in that nature.” You also sometimes need to step out of that. Step back into it in a positive manner. It is a way of leadership and teaching people how you want to be treated from a personal. You’re setting the top for yourself and those around you.

Being Present: If you want people around you to commit, you need to step out and back into leadership in a positive manner. Teach people how you want to be treated from a personal level.

You said it. It’s a season. You may step into it. The goal is a leader is if you’re going through it, you shouldn’t be there for long unless you have a hard lesson. As I always say, “God let you there because it’s a purity problem or an immaturity problem.” You’re sharp as an iron. If you go through a season of it, it will be for a time to you get that clarity, brush off, look in the mirror, and say, “This is what I want,” but then you come out of it.

All these things he talks about are not forever. It’s the valley. The valley means that, eventually, there’s a bottom and then you start eventually coming back up again. I like that you said to step in and out of it because you’re going to have it throughout your whole life. As you get older, you get a lot more depth at it. You honestly look forward to it because you know this is going to be a time of refinement and reflection, and it’s a good thing.

That is powerful because it’s true. The universe puts quite a bit on you leading you to these points and these things to work through, but choose a little bit of challenge and challenge yourself within. It is like choosing to walk through the eye of the storm and to grow through it as opposed to damaging these windstorms and tumbleweed, circling back to it later, taking that head on, and embracing that growth as it comes. Your skin gets a little thicker.

Being Present: Choose to walk through the eye of the storm to grow through it. Taking the challenges head-on will make your skin a little thicker.

Charles says that you get a thick skin and a soft heart rather than a thin skin and a hard heart. That’s what loneliness is. Loneliness can be your friend. It can teach you a lot because bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. The sooner you can go, “It is what it is. I’m going to embrace it,” something positive is going to come out in us. We defined that season of loneliness to be probably one of the greatest times of growth we’ve ever had.

That’s the season I’m in. That’s why I am embracing these new challenges, leadership options, and things like that. Thank you.

When I went back for PhD many years ago, I was burned out and done with everything and feeling untremendous. I thought, “I’m going to go back and go to school.” Sometimes if you’re in a season of loneliness, that’s the best time to do it because you’re tired. I was burnt out on doing stuff. My health, relationships, and finances were in tatters. I thought, “I’m going to go study.” I got my mind in a space of growth, “Everything else I touched was turning to crap. Let’s at least stay.” If you’re in a season of loneliness, learning can pull you out of it because as I was recharging my mind, all of a sudden, my emotions and my behaviors started aligning. That’s what pulled out in all areas of my life. I went through a four-year evolution process. It was because of the learning process that I started.

I try to envision seeing a lot of myself from you and pulling from your opportunity, growth, and things like that of, “Why not me be able to do this now? Why not me from a business standpoint? Why not me from a personal standpoint?” A lot of us have this self-imposed negative self-talk. That’s where we stay stagnant. That’s why we don’t allow ourselves and everybody around us. Nobody has as many negative things to say as we think. That’s an internal voice. We think that everybody’s like, “She can’t do it. Why are you even doing it?” It’s ourselves and helping people to help us.

We talked about loneliness. That was a beautiful discussion. Thank you so much for that. You talked about weariness. You’re juggling a lot. I’m juggling a lot. We’re managing all the different aspects of our life. You have family, friends, a career, and rescue kitties. We have our spiritual life, personal life, and financial life. How do you stay in top form with all the demands going on?

I’m a big advocate for mental health, and I still think nowadays that we don’t put anywhere near emphasis on that as a society, community, and human beings and understanding that everybody is going through something every single day. All of our stories look different. I don’t have any human children, a spouse, or things like that to worry about. There are many people who juggle children, families, careers, and everything. They are exhausted. I cannot imagine what they go through each and every day. I always say, “I’m tired girl. I like to nap, rest, and recharge.”

My mom always taught me, “Listen to your body. Rest when you need to rest.” That’s a common misconception when we feel weary that we either lay down and die, or we have to push through and be this warrior and Spartan. There isn’t in between. There is a rest for your body, mind, and soul. I do think that rest, mental health, and things like that are not spoken about or putting a positive light enough because we’re programmed, “You can do it. Push through it. Everybody else has done it. Everybody else can do it with even more on their plate. Why can’t you?”

That scene behind everybody going through something behind their eyes every single day and knowing it’s all different is something that brings us back to unite us as well because everybody’s story is different, but everybody needs to break and rest. That weariness leaning into it a little bit, resting, and doing things is what’s needed. We’re going to talk about changing things from negative to positive, but it’s not a negative thing that we need some downtime. One of the things we talked about was different things that enthuse people, that are good goals, or help you to do your every day and do it better. One of those for me is traveling. I like to always have a trip on the books, a small trip, a long weekend, or something with the girls. It is anything like that is on the books to be that thing for me.

Everybody is going through something behind their eyes every single day. Everybody needs to take a break.

I’m going to trudge through to get to that trip, “I just need to get there in how many days.” I am filling that time and compartmentalizing what I can achieve within there and then rewarding myself. We had a coach at work and we still have him. One of the things that I love that he said was to not goal jump. “We’re going to reach these goals from a personal standpoint. We’re going to be tired and afraid. We’re going to do it anyway. When we get these, we’re going to celebrate them. We’re going to celebrate these goalposts. We’re not going to whiz by them because we are going to do, and we’re not going to stop to reach these goals before we get to this personal. This S-curve, we’re going to stop and acknowledge.”

That helps with the weariness, burnout, things that drag you down, and having something that makes you feel alive and having that on the books. If it’s going to get Chinese food and watch the sunset, which I do often, I’m going there, sitting, relaxing, watching the people, reading a book, going on a trip, doing something for yourself, a class that you’ve been putting off, or anything like that. It could be many things. I love to watch crime shows at night.

I love to eat have snacks and watch crime shows for hours at night. Some people say, “You could be reading a book. You could be doing this.” There is time for those things, but sometimes it is time for snacks, crime shows, and stand-up comedy. Some things put you in a better mood. It can be as low-key and as small as watching a TV show you like. It is stopping and realizing that you’re here, you get to be here, and you get to choose what you want to do to bring a smile to your face or the opposite of that. You need a good cry or moment of anger to be, sit with that, feel it, and experience it. Those all come back and weariness dragging us down the type of deal.

With mental health, what you’re describing is mindfulness and being very present, whether it be a vacation. There are times when, like you, I do the same thing because I can work 24/7. That’s the pace I run at. As leaders, you have to realize not everybody can do that. I got that from my dad. I got the genetic go-forever gene from my dad, but that’s not everybody. We still have to take time. I love that, and it was very purposeful. One of my courses was, “You have to Sabbath and stop always looking forward. Be pressing. Celebrate where you are,” and then I get to go, “Look how blessed I am.” There are 50 million things still up there. Otherwise, you never stop and get to enjoy what you’ve done. You’re always running to the next thing in the future you. That’s hard on your body.

That manifests everywhere like your mental health and when you don’t feel good. That comes from a physical standpoint.

It did for me. My adrenal gland was shot. I thought it was chronic fatigue, but it was, “I was it. I was done.” I had to sleep 23 hours a day instead of running 24 hours a day until my body said, “We’re not doing this anymore.” You have to be very mindful of that.

Time for a little rest.

Not all activity is a good activity, but it always depletes. You got to recharge. I love that you love to travel. Rescuing is a good thing for you.

I had 6 cats and 1 dog. I am down to four cats. We’re staying steady at that. We’re not getting more. They’re all elderly. My oldest one needs some dental work. Animals are pure joy. There was a lot of work that people skipped over, and they bring so much into this.

Being Present: Animals offer the purest joy.

Some people are like, “The work,” and I’m like, “Then don’t.” I’m like you. The high point of my day is anytime I go into my two little Aussie puppies, I unlock the crate, and they come flying out at me. I don’t care what a day it is. I love it.

People probably think I’m a nut if my neighbors can hear me because I walk through the door every single day. They’re always laying on the couch when I get home and I say, “Ladies and gentlemen, your mother’s home.”

Could you tell them how hard you work? That’s what I tell them. I’m like, “Mommy has to go bring home the bacon so you guys can live the life. You lay here. Let mommy take care of you.” That’s beautiful, and it gives us great joy. We help rescuers because that’s a worrisome job, going after animals and animals. It never ends, but it never stops. A lot of them do that with their own finances. People like us are, “Somebody has got to take them,” otherwise the whole system gets jammed up. I’m always like, “Somebody’s got to help alleviate the fosters and the rescue organization. Somebody has to help them. If you can help them, help them.”

They are at another level. It’s unreal.

Talking about animals, the next thing my dad talked about was abandonment, which in the animal kingdom and the rescue world is a big no-no. We’ve heard about that fear of abandonment, people who suffer from attachment issues, have been abandoned as a child, or had somebody divorce walk out on them, but that’s not the abandonment he was talking about. He was talking about the things that we need to abandon that we like and want to do in favor of what we ought and need to do.

I remember my dad. I’m like, “You’re successful. How did you get successful?” He’s like, “I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success.” I’m like, “How is that even possible?” He goes, “It’s being meticulous and honest with yourself. Yes, you have to have downtime, but be honest about, ‘Is this the best in my time? This book, partner, habit, or whatever.’” You can’t juggle everything because we’re not Wonder Woman. Something will drop or we’ll hurt and compromise ourselves physically. How do you stay finely tuned and focused on what you need to do to move your life forward?

One of the first things I’ve enacted over the last couple of years a little e bit more is simply saying no to some things. It sounds a little bit more forward-thinking feature because when you say no, it’s not because you don’t wish to do something with somebody and you don’t wish to spend the time. It could be an amazing event. It could be something like that, but you forward think a little bit yourself when that time comes. I always start to try to do this habit, “How am I going to feel when it comes time to do this event or this option?” It is because I’ve learned over the years that I say yes every single time, and when it comes time to do it, I am not joyful about doing it longer, whether that’s an event, a party, or it could even be something philanthropic.

You don’t have the capacity for every single thing you want to do. When that time comes, how am I going to feel? Am I going to feel excited three weeks from now at 6:00 on a Tuesday when I said yes to doing this, or am I going to think, “You should have thought about it a little harder a few weeks ago?” My pullback is to stop and think before I say yes because it’s something I probably will end up enjoying. Unfortunately, we can’t base everything on enjoyment and that type of deal. That’s been my great thoughts.

Being Present: Stop and think before you say yes to anything.

I’m getting better at that because there’s something about saying yes, “Could you take over this?” “Yes,” then I’m like, “What have I done?” I love that you said, “How am I going to feel when that happens?” Think about it. In the back of my mind, I was doing that, but I liked this because we were asked to do it. I tell people at least half the stuff I do is either volunteer, at least half, probably more philanthropic or something that’s not a “lever” to pull for the business.

In business, you’re going to say yes because you’re running your business. I like that, “How am I going to feel?” You catch people that say yes to something, and then they’re like, “What did I say yes to that?” They grouse. I tell people, “If you did say yes, you have to do it with joy.” Next time, don’t say yes because my friend Lisa said, “Ask yourself, ‘How am I going to feel?’” That’s a good one.

If we choose to, it’s not going to benefit or behoove us to be worn out. I’m not excited about the things we do want to do. I have a couple of friends who try to trick people and say, “What are you doing on this date at this time?” I’m like, “I’m not sure what I’m doing. What are you talking about?” Honestly, to lay it all out front, that’s how I am. I want to know the black-and-white of it first that it’s not always from a feeling standpoint because if I fast forward to several weeks from now and I think, “I’d rather be in a robe on my couch,” that’s okay. That’s enough of an answer for myself.

That’s great, and that will help you. Even partnering with somebody working with a particular author or a meeting planner, I already get a sense of how this is going to go and if it’s going to be a joy or if it’s going to be not so joyful. I like that. It is to say, “Is this going to be edifying for both of you? Is this going to be a real pain in the neck?”

There’s the opposite side of that coin as well. You’re not sure and your future self will thank you for that when you set yourself up for success in things like that. The term abandonment could be abandoning these things or it could be leaning into these other things. It depends on your perception of that because abandonment could be from a personal standpoint. It could be deep-rooted internally. There could be things that trigger people in this form of business standpoint from anything else, but also abandoning thoughts of these negative notions and these things that we always say yes, even if they’re positive. Abandonment can be fun to a positive life.

It is something you need to let go of to embrace the future. You can’t have two spouses. At least not in Pennsylvania. You can’t have two jobs. You can’t be double-minded or even have negative thoughts. I can’t have negative and positive thoughts in my mind at the same time. Pick a lane. I love that you talked about if you get to it, abandonment means, “No, we’re done with that.” You can for yourself up, be open, and talk about your future self thanking you.

It’s always tough because it’s a death. Even if it’s a bad friend, marriage, or job, you’re still ending something. That’s hard because there’s an element of failure, insecurity, or scariness, but to take that next step, you have to let go of what you were doing before. I asked people when I worked for one of them in the future. I go, “What are you going to change because what if this is still going on in a year?” “It won’t.” “What are you going to stop doing?” “I don’t know.” “You’re going to get the same thing in a year.” Abandonment, in that sense, like loneliness, is a pruning. It’s a cutting away of the dead, diseased, or dying. As we’re evolving, we always have to be looking at that and doing that.

I’m glad you touched on that with having too many things going on being by myself a lot more and being able to cultivate a lot of these ideas that I didn’t even know I had, to be very frank, taking notes in different things, ideas for businesses, and all the different things going through my head. Sometimes, I’m somebody who can’t have too many balls in the air. Sometimes I need to go ahead and establish this timeline and items and abandon these other items for a short time. Maybe I’ll come back to them. Because I can do several things well, I can’t do seventeen things well and keep that going.

Sometimes even as women, we are like, “We have to do it all.” Stop. Don’t play that martyr thing. Sometimes people do what they think because they like that. I’m like, “That’s not good.” If you’re going to do seventeen things, you are doing with joy, but it’s not feasible. You need to abandon some of those things like thinking you can do it all. For some people, that’s the joy of getting to tell everybody they’re doing everything, but I digress.

Back to the price of leadership, the last thing you talked about was vision. I can remember I sat growing up with the Ken Blanchards and Norman Vincent Peales. I’m like, “These guys are visionaries.” I was like, “I don’t think I’m a visionary.” My dad was always like, “You are. It’s just seeing what needs to be done and then doing it.” There was a very strategic but also a tactical aspect, and I’m like, “That I can do.” How do you hone your vision for what’s next in your life and these ideas that are coming up and how does that fit the Lisa of the next 5, 10, or 15 years?

I do a lot of thinking, reflecting, and things like that. My mom is such a strong woman that she is a fraction of the woman that she is in my entire life. She is beyond. I didn’t know that she was cultivating the seed inside me since I was very little of watching her, having strength, and being able to do what people don’t think you can do. She did it and she did it with grace. She never ever put her problems on other people. That’s one of the things that I make sure that I try not to let my own and not share with people, but it’s a matter of not letting your own learning, own negativity, and things spill onto others.

Do not let your negativity spill onto other people.

That was one of the things that she made sure even when hard things happened to her and a lot of hard things happened to her. It wasn’t anybody else’s fault. That’s such a strong foundation that starting out when I was younger, “You can do things in what you put your mind to. You can do these things.” As I got a little older, a lot of it was situational. I had a job, and the people around me said, “You can do this. Would you like to interview for this position?” or things like that. It is little things that build your confidence that you find out you can do as you go.

It’s crazy how I got into this position because I didn’t have the experience that I thought, “I was never going to get this position ever.” It was the wildest interview I’ve ever had because I’m like, “They’re going to ask me about all my previous experience. I’m going to have to tell them I don’t have any. It’s going to be a sad time. I’m going to walk out the door. It’s going to be hard, but I’m going to go through this all and learn from it,” but their questions are, “Are you loyal and adaptable? Can you move in a fast-paced environment? Can you move with grace? This is going to be hard. We have a lot of amazing clients.”

I’m thinking, “Yes,” but when we’re going to get to the questions that I’m going to have to say no to, they never got to those questions that I had to say no to. It was the most eye-opening experience. I never had any corporate experience before in that realm. I’m thinking, “This must be a one. This isn’t going to be the position that I thought. I’m only going to be very short time because I don’t even know what I’m doing.” In positive things I’ve said yes to and the people around me, my family’s strength and leadership are giving me goosebumps.

They are those who have believed in me and pushed me to that next level to help me push myself, so that vision comes from them, me, and from the circular movement of us bouncing these ideas, passions, and caring about each other as humans off of each other over and over every single day. My personal business leads into the business vision. That leads back to my personal vision and things that seemed far away, unattainable, and unachievable, but great things to talk about.

We’ve seen a business come to fruition, and we’re only a couple of steps off this feeling-less ladder. To see that and to see it be real from a personal standpoint has stopped and made me think, “Why not me?” There are many people and famous celebrities, all these interviews and things, “Why did you think you could do it?” They thought, “There are many people around me. Why not me? Why can’t I go?” I had that same negative self-talk, “Why would I be the one to go for it? Why would I push myself? Why would I be somebody who would be a leader or who would be in these positions and not somebody else who is more qualified or experienced?”

At the end of the day, they’re not you or me. We all bring such different things to the table. I was talking to a friend and I said, “You don’t even know. This has happened for eleven and a half years straight, and it happens to me every single day. Every morning, it’s like a roller coaster.” In the very early morning, I start to think, “How am I going to get everything done? How am I going to be able to have the knowledge and the experience? How am I going to conquer the tasks that I need to and the clients I need to speak with? What needs to happen? How am I going to do this?”

It moves into a little bit more negative. There are one million people who are more qualified and experienced than me, who worked for a Fortune 100 company, and who can do this. By mid-morning, I’m getting a little bit of a stride and I’m like, “I’m getting things done. I’m doing this.” By early afternoon, I’m like, “I am here.” By late afternoon, I’m like, “I’m where I’m supposed to be. They are as lucky to have me as I am to have them.” I leave with a side and the whole thing starts the next morning.

Some people say, “That’s not healthy.” I would tend to disagree because you need a level of leveling, a level of humility, and an understanding of how many amazing people there are. You can gather from just being in our class the people around me. There could be an interaction at the grocery store where you gather something from somebody that sticks with you. People are amazing and to think through, see the opportunity, and get to it as opposed to having something that has stuck with me over the years.

You get to do this every day. You get to try to be your best and show up for people. However, that turns out for the day, knowing that you did your best and showed up as your true and real self. That’s where I am in my life in this season. It is that authenticity that brings it home because there are people who are not going to from a personal standpoint, but they do from a business standpoint. You can go in and pick somebody apart in every way, shape, and form. I’m somebody who thrives on positive reinforcement.

If I see even a glimmer of something positive or something like, “I got that. Now I can get the next thing. I can at least try,” I start to get this little bit of wind beneath my wings to help put things up. It’s this constant whatever you want to call it, angel or demon. It is necessary because you got to know how great other people are, but you also have to believe in yourself and commend the people around you for helping build you into who you are.

Being Present: Commend the people around you for helping you build into who you are right now.

Thank you for being very authentic about that. My dad was always very clear about that. He’s like, “I’m a failure too.” It wasn’t a degradation. It was a humility. He knew there were many better speakers out there. There are many people that sold more books. I appreciate you saying that. It makes sure you never get to fully yourself and never content because you’re constantly on this, “Revert back. I’m strong enough. Tomorrow is another day.” People see the sun, sit back, and get stale, like, “What got you there won’t keep you there.” I love that you’re looking at that, but I love that you talked about the vision.

You are with people that you almost borrow their vision. Now that I’m teaching in the financial planning world, I know my dad loved it so much, and if I had to do it over again, although I had a great career, you cannot succeed if you’re chewing people up and getting rid of them. Not everybody is perfect. I’ve been around. I understand, but it seems like in the financial planning industry, they saw you and they realize that you may not see it, but they see it in you.

You were opening up to borrow their vision in you, and then there’s this symbiotic relationship. You got to have your vision. We talked about that in the CLF Program. You have your individual motivations, but then it’s tied to the organization. It is the fact that you for many years, every morning, get up and get energized about this. This is what everybody craves. This is what all those TikTok people say, “I quit after eleven and a half minutes.” This is what they’re looking for, maybe not and they just like making TikTok videos.

I don’t have TikTok. I’m not sure what you mean.

Everybody is like, “I quit.” My dad would say, “You can’t quit. You have done nothing yet.” You go in and you’re thankful. They’re like, “This isn’t for me.” I’m like, “You don’t even know. You have even tried.” You’re willing to look at vision as a shared enterprise and realize that vision is a shared thing. An organization can’t be 50 different visionaries all pull in different directions. That’s crazy, but you talked about them and what they saw in you and you were open to say yes. You drew from that. I also know why you scheduled our show for the late afternoon. I’m glad we didn’t talk in the morning. Usually, people sign up first thing in the morning. I’m always like, “That is funny that you said that.”

We blur the lines a little bit as we get a little older. You hear some of these younger kids, “I can’t do something I’m not passionate about.” Even I’m like, “What do you mean?”

There’s going to be a lot, “I don’t like paying taxes. I don’t like not eating sugar. I don’t like picking up dog poop.” There’s going to be a lot you’re going to have to do.

It’s got to be given in all forms of life and ways as you get older. From a personal standpoint, from a vision, I have big goals that I wish to achieve. I want to build my home. That’s been my ultimate goal for decades. I want to build a home for myself, and then I also come back to traveling and then doing things for more things for my family because it is what they’ve done for me growing up. Having an opportunity to do that is what pushes me. Having that within the grasp and being able to is beyond measure.

Your vision is tied to your why. You’re very clear, it’s got enough of them and emotional. It’s personal and it’s your why. When people would be like, “I don’t know if I can sell anymore,” my dad is like, “It’s not a productivity thing. You have to get back to your why.” It is as long as you’re always going back to that. That sense of gratitude always keeps you there. You’re there to choose success not just for yourself but for everybody else in everything you’re saying. I love it. We covered loneliness, weariness abandonment, and vision. Anything else that we have not touched on as far as leadership that you would like to share with our readers?

We’ve touched on a whole lot. I mentioned earlier that one of the big things that keep rearing its head in this season of life and a lot lately is everything being a trade-off. It’s not necessarily in relationships where everything is a trade-off and business things are a trade-off. It is understanding that sometimes we trade-in. Have you ever seen Jesus with the teddy bear? There is this girl with a little teddy bear. He’s telling her to give it up. He’s got a giant teddy behind his back, but she can’t see it. We all have that where we grip tightly the things that we think are good for us but aren’t meant for us, but we’re content enough that we want to hold on and we don’t want to see what’s behind his back when it could be great.

Everything is a trade-off in business and relationships.

We don’t know and it’s stepping into that unknown. That’s one of the things that I hope that more people will lean into and recognize the power within themselves to be with them a little bit, explore, and know how much they have inside of them that can be brought up and drawn out, whether it’s with the right people, scenario, or situation. We’re not always going to be in those, but realizing that there’s much more inside you than what you think. It can be brought out with the tiniest of things and you can cultivate that from your own self-worth, excitement, and things like that.

I love that you said that for readers, “The tiniest of things,” because some people are like, “It’s going to take too much work.” It has to be your book and I’ll publish it.

For this interview, I’ve been jotting down all these random things that come to mind. I give myself a chance to process or bring them out on myself previously. I thought, “I’m going to leave those aside. I’m going to have a conversation.” I’m thinking in my head, “What if I make those into a book? What if I did want to do something like that in the future?” This stuff comes to you when you don’t even consider it. It leaks out of you in the best of ways. If you could publish my book, I’d appreciate it so much. This is a very large thing.

Our connection was a phenomenal class, the connections that we had, and you learning and getting to read your papers, then get to know somebody when they write about what they’re going through. It is such a joy to watch. It’s impressive. Your mom must be so proud of you.

Thank you so much. It’s funny because she says, “You wanted to write a paper? In this many years, I’ve never seen you excited to write.”

Isn’t it beautiful? I almost flunked out of college twice. Now I’m like, “No, it’s different.” When you place where you want to learn, you’re excited, and you get your act together, “I am a radically different student than what I was before.” That’s the beauty of adult learning. You’ll want to learn.

When you’re able to choose a little bit more of where you’re spending on what subjects and work it into your everyday life, it’s magic.

What’s the best way for people to get in touch with you?

You’re welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn. You’re also welcome to send me an email.

You want to connect with tremendous Lisa, learn more about her, and have her in your network of people. Lisa, where are you located at?

I am near Cleveland Ohio, about half an hour-ish West of Cleveland. If anybody wants to chat and bounce some ideas, I would love to learn from you and gather some of those thoughts because I’m sure that everybody reading has so much to offer. I would be grateful to be able to speak with anybody.

Thank you so much. This has been at such a time of getting to know you more. We’re in between class breaks. You’re getting ready to start again. I’m blessed to have you in my life. I’m excited about what you shared and what’s next for you.

Thank you so much. I am as well. I’m grateful and excited.

To our readers, it is time for us to bid adieu. If you like what you read, please hit the subscribe button. How about sharing this with somebody who needs to read Lisa’s wonderful words of wisdom about what it takes to pay the price of leadership? If you would do us the honor of a review, we would be thankful too. Never forget, you’re going to be the same person five years now except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. As long as you keep doing that, you are going to be more than ready, willing, and able to pay the price of leadership. Thank you all so much for reading and have a tremendous rest of the day.

Important Links

• Lisa Michener

• The Price of Leadership

About Lisa Michener

Lisa Michener is the Chief Communications and Marketing Officer at a financial planning firm and has been there for 11 years. Lisa is a lover of all things food, an avid horror movie fan, a stand-up comedy enthusiast, loves to travel, adores her 4 rescue kitties at home, and you cannot pry her off of a dance floor if you try! Spending time with family and friends is her most valued venture of all these, and she tries to embody an attitude of gratitude every single day.

Episode 171 - Greg Leith - Leaders On Leadership

Nothing can beat living a well-lived life. That should be our mission in life. Today, Greg Leith, the CEO of Convene Corporation, is gracing us with his presence. Greg enlightens the path of what it takes for leaders to lead the ultimate kingdom. He shares how he navigates into the prices he had to pay being a leader to stack crowns and accelerate the kingdom. To stay focused on his calling, Greg recognizes the value of working because that’s what God wants us to do. So, let’s step into this episode and find the strength to be a great leader that will accelerate you to the kingdom.

—

Watch the episode here

LISTEN TO THE PODCAST HERE

Greg Leith - Leaders On Leadership

In this episode, I’m very excited to introduce you to Greg Leith. Let me tell you about Greg. Greg’s life mission statement is to “strengthen great leaders and exponentially accelerate the kingdom.” He is the CEO of Convene Corporation where thousands of Christian CEOs connect around business excellence that is built on a biblical foundation. Before that, Greg was also a senior executive for twenty years with the ServiceMaster company, which is a multi-national $9 billion firm engaged in healthcare and education management, as well as franchising. He’s also a nonprofit leader where he serves as the Vice President of Arrow Leadership and Director of Leadership Development for the Christian Leadership Alliance. Greg, I am so excited to talk to you about the price of leadership.

Thanks for having me, Tracey. It’s an honor and you know how much I also was a raving fan of your dad’s. This is a treat for me.

Thank you. To our audience, I always like to share how we made this tremendous connection. I am in the Harrisburg area in Pennsylvania. Last November, I was at the Lancaster Prayer Breakfast, where I crossed past with the tremendous gentleman, Bud Handwerk, who then connected with me. Bud chairs one of the local groups here in our area of the Christian Convene. For our audience, those of you who are familiar with other mastermind groups like this stage, this is like that.

We’ll talk about how it’s different, but this is the Christian version of it. I’ve gotten the chance to get connected with the local groups in the area to speak to them, and then I got to meet Greg in person because Bud told me how much you love my father. Not long ago, when you came and did a regional event in the Lancaster Trust, I got to meet Greg in person. Greg, thank you so much for being here again.

It’s great to be with you. One of my stories that I told Bud Handwerk there in the Lancaster area, which by the way, it took me two years to get the audience in Lancaster to stop laughing when I said Lancaster. I remember walking into Lancaster Bible College one day into the library. I’m a raving fan of your dad. I’ve heard him speak many times. He’s giving me the signature Charlie “Tremendous” Jones hug. I walked into the library at Lancaster Bible College and I saw this life-sized portrait of your dad. It was very big. I said to Bud, "What the heck?" He said, "Tracey lives here." I said, "I'd love to meet her." This is great for me.

It is great. That’s where I got my PhD. Many of the audience out there know that. It’s at the Lancaster Bible College. I love that entity and all they do. They taught me all about leadership. Greg, thank you for sharing that. I'm so glad you got hugged multiple times by Charlie. I know you were a true leader and you would have paid the price of leadership if you had not got some of his bear hugs for sure.

I’m also thrilled to meet one of the little children when you were a little bit young girl in some of his stories of the car going back and forth in the snow in the driveway to go to church because “We’re going to go to church.” Of course, he knew you could never make it out of the driveway that snowy day and told you later, apparently, that he was making memories.

Did he ever? He would also tell us, “I always let you guys make your own decisions.” We’re like, “Seriously? Did you really say that?” He’s like, “They have engaged in a little spiritual meddling.” He always had an interesting way of saying different things. Greg, you have decades of leadership experience. One of Charlie’s most prolific speeches is he loved leadership but he was very pragmatic about it.

He said, “If you’re going to be a leader, there’s a price you’re going to have to pay.” The first price that he talked about was loneliness. We’ve all heard that "Heavy is the head that wears the crown and it’s lonely at the top.” Can you unpack what loneliness means for you as a leader? Perhaps, if you have been through a season of loneliness, something that you would share with our audience to help them as they navigate their way through it.

I feel like we could do about three episodes on this subject so I’ll be succinct or I will be here for three days. There are many times when, in my life, I was feeling lonely at the top. I remember Chuck Swindoll, my pastor here in California for quite a while, wrote an article called The Lonely Whine of the Top Dog. It is about moving away from the crowd, as your dad said. I remember a time when I was quite happy in my ServiceMaster corporate job. We were $5 billion or $6 billion at that time. I had started with ServiceMaster when we were $300 million. I was with the corporate side, healthcare management, suits, ties, corporate jets, and the whole nine yards. On the franchise side, these people cleaned carpets and drove yellow vans.

I thought, “I will never be one of those people,” and then I found out that there was a business in Vancouver, Canada for sale doing $40,000. I said to the guy who wanted to sell it, “$40,000? Is that a day, a week, or a month?” He said, “No. A year.” I went to the people doing what he did in Toronto, Canada, where I was living. I said, “How much do you do?” They said $7 million. I quickly bought the guy’s business in Vancouver but I was driving by myself in my little Audi 5000 from Toronto to Vancouver the entire time thinking, “I spent all the money I had. I don’t know why I’m going out there to clean carpets. This is ridiculous.” On the last day of my drive, I was super tired. I drove through the night. It was about 3:00 in the morning and I found a motel.

I pulled into the parking lot, turned off the car, and slept for two hours until I went to my first meeting with my new business in Vancouver, Canada. The entire drive, I can promise you, I was lonely. As I inherited the business, there was a guy who was mostly drunk. There was a drug addict. There was a broken-down vehicle. I fired everybody and started cleaning the carpet myself. Here I am, cleaning the carpet in the middle of the night at 2:00 in the morning with a Bible College degree and a Business degree, I left corporate with a suit. I said, “What am I doing? This is ridiculous.” I surely was lonely.

This will make you go, “What the heck is that?” but I’m encouraged by the contents of Abraham Lincoln’s pockets the night he was shot. The reason I’m encouraged by that is because what was in his pockets was normal stuff. He had a country boy’s pen knife. He had his spectacles tied together with a piece of twine, a handkerchief, a watch fob, and here’s the best part, eight articles in his pocket on why history would call him a great president. Lonely at the top.

That is fascinating. Have you ever read the poem? I cannot believe I have never heard this. If anybody says, “I can’t believe you have heard this,” I’m going to say, “Why didn’t you tell me earlier about it?” It’s called The Indispensable Man. Have you ever read that poem?

No.

You didn’t know either but it’s very much the same thing and it’s all about the allegory. The parable is when you leave an entity and you think you’ll be missed, “I can’t leave. I’m so good. I’m up here at this paradigm” kind of thing, put your hand in a bucket. Take your hand out of the bucket and look at the bucket. When you go, that’s how much people remember you. It’s not a mean thing but it’s all about listening. It keeps you humble no matter where you go. I love that story that you were up there and here you are in the middle of the night cleaning carpets. That is good for the soul to keep you focused on the peaks and the valleys of leadership. I appreciate you sharing that.

Take your hand out of the bucket, and look at the bucket when you go. That's how much people remember you.

You’re welcome.

The next thing he said is weariness I’m sure you were weary too. My dad would always tell me, “Tracey, so much of leadership is you’re going to have to be picking up the things that other people should be doing but they’re not doing and it’s tiring. We have this beautiful soul and eternal spirit but we’re still mere mortals.” How do you combat weariness as a leader?

I was encouraged. At one point in time in my career, I was a Youth for Christ board member in the Canadian Youth for Christ for the country. I had the privilege of hearing a talk by Torrey Johnson. He was one of the early Youth for Christ people before Billy Graham and during the Billy Graham era as well. Torrey did a talk one time. He was one of the most powerful preachers. He did this talk where he was basically in the genre of your dad. He was talking about when you’re tired. He said, “When you do work, you get tired and you get so tired sometimes. Sometimes, when I’m so tired, I go back to the hotel room and lie on the bed. I’m too tired to take my clothes off and I fall asleep on the bed and wake up at 2:00 in the morning.”

That is encouraging to me. What God is not for is for us to have three vacation homes and golf after we sell the company for $100 million while we're doing absolutely nothing for the kingdom. We might be excessive in our purchasing habits. There's nothing wrong with great cars but you probably don't need 5 or 6. There's nothing wrong with great houses but you probably don't need 4 or 5. I'd rather be tired of the work of the kingdom, leadership, and helping people than live a life full of leisure so that when I get to heaven, I'm going to get through the reward line fast because God doesn't have much to say.

You hit the nail on the head. There’s good weariness and bad weariness, just like loneliness. There’s the good loneliness like when Christ goes off on his own, and then there’s the bad loneliness. The weariness, it is very interesting that you talked about Torrey finishing the race strong. It means you don’t let off the paddle. Dad did not like it when he would ask people, “What are you doing?” They’re like, “We’re retired.” I’m like, “Don’t say that.” He’s like, “We don’t ever retire in the kingdom. What if John would have retired on the isle of Patmos?” We finished strong and beware. There are times when I’m so tired but there’s a good weariness that you know that you’re exhausted but in such a good way. I love Youth for Christ. I was in that as a youngster.

Frankly, there are people who are tired of doing nothing. The redefinition of those people’s “tiredness” is they are actually bored with the lack of accomplishment in their lives. Those are some people that I don’t want to get behind in the rewards line in heaven because they’re going to be getting a lot of rewards from God. We often forget that there are rewards in heaven. Everybody thinks it’s weird and everybody comes and pushes back against it and says, “God wouldn’t set up a reward plan.”

It’s like you didn’t set up a reward plan for your kids when you said, “If you do these chores, you get five stars” or whatever. God says we are going to be rewarded for the things we accomplished on Earth and if we get that, then we will be ready to receive these rewards from God. I don’t want to be the guy who God says, “Next. Leave. You didn’t do much. Go to your mansion and see you later.”

The Ultimate Kingdom: God says we will be rewarded for the things we accomplished on Earth. And if we get that, we will be ready to receive these rewards from God.

I love it. I call that stacking crowns and you said accelerate the kingdom. We’re building it up and doing it now versus later. Have you ever read Erwin Lutzer’s One Minute After You Die?

Yeah.

I read that probably at least every other month. He talks about that and what we’re doing here. It’s the parable of the talents. What are we going to be doing in heaven? I’m like, “I don’t want to be unemployed in heaven.” I want to have discussions with you about how incredible things are. What we’re doing here is we’re honing our chops or spirit. We’re just in a different form that we’re going to be doing that. I love that you brought that out. That’s why he says, “Don’t grow weary.” We say, “I said the prayer. I’m done. I will just sit back and wait until the end.”

To bounce off one of your dad’s eternal life insurance policy pamphlets. You don’t want to say, “I got a fire insurance policy against hell and I have nothing to do until I get to heaven.” That’s ridiculous.

The next thing he talked about was abandonment. Again, there's good abandonment and bad abandonment. We hear the fear of abandonment. If you’re in pet rescue like me, that’s a bad thing. What my father talked about was that abandonment was like a hyper-focus. I can remember one time I went into the basement, where his office was, as a teenager. He was at the height of his career and I remember him sitting there with this look on his face. I was like, “What’s up, Dad?” He said, “Tracey, I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than I do my success.”

I’m like, “What are you talking about?” He’s like, “You need to learn the Law of Abandonment, which is pruning. Stop thinking and doing what you like and want to think about in favor of what you ought and need to be about.” It captures all those thoughts. The devil loves busyness and working our fingers to the bone, but not all work is the purest form of our work. Can you talk about, with all your transitions, things, and all the different requirements on you, how you deal with abandonment and stay tightly focused on the best and highest use of god’s calling for you?

I have a son named Carson. He’s an Anglican priest up in Wenatchee, Washington. He wrote an article one time that I loved where he basically said, “You’re trying to get the first thing on your list done that is important and you decide to go check the news. You read the news about the latest politics and then you see an ad for better dog food. You click on that and then you’re working on looking at this dog food and you see something for dog little outfits. You click on that and then the next thing you see is an article about the Caribbean vacation. You’re talking about the Caribbean vacation and you look at your watch and half an hour has gone by. You’re now looking at what new carpet colors are hot in the world.”

You went from here to here but you never got the first thing done. I remember right here in my office, I have a big whiteboard thing and it’s full of sticky notes. It’s all about our May 2024 conference, which is about ten months away. I was thinking, "There are a lot of fun things I could do today, but I need to do that work on the conference, but it’s ten months away.” I started doing some other stuff that was fun and then I realized I had to go sit in the chair in front of the whiteboard and figure out who are my final speakers for May 2024. Part of it took me to go and sit in that chair. There’s that insurance salesman who wasn’t your dad who said, “The difference between successful people and non-successful people is successful people have learned to do the things that unsuccessful people are not willing to do.”

I had to go sit in my chair, look at the whiteboard, and figure out what had to be done. I could go home and say to my wife, Shelly, “All the speakers for the conference are done.” I felt great like Torrey Johnson said, “You feel great.” Here’s the deal. God is the creator. God, Jesus, and the holy spirit worked to create Earth. They gave Adam and Eve work in the garden. They said work is going to look different until Jesus comes again. When we go to heaven, we’re going to work in heaven. It’s work, not leisure or there would be no men and women created, no Earth created, and no work in heaven. Some people think we’re going to sit in heaven with white robes, harps, and clouds. That’s not the deal. We are going to work in heaven and work now is a test. Work is a good thing so let’s get to work.

That abandonment and the quote that you talked about were habits. It’s Albert E.N. Gray’s The New Common Denominator of Success. Probably, at least half of our audience out there haven’t read that. If you haven’t gotten what Greg was talking about, it is habits. You’re sitting there and saying, “Turn it off. This is what I’m going to do.” It reminds me, Greg. You got to drive an Amish buggy when he was in Lancaster. Correct, Greg?

Yes ma’am.

For those of you who have been up in Amish country here in South Central Pennsylvania, the horses are on there. Sometimes they have those blinders on so they’re not distracted. That’s what you need to do with yourself. You need to saddle up, get your lobe behind you, put them little blinders on, and get to walk. Every time I think about those horses, I’m like, “God, may I have the focus in the singularity of those Amish horses.”

Loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. The last topic he said is vision. I know growing up, I’m listening to the great people. I thought, “They have something going on. They have this visionary gene.” My dad is like, “Tracey, vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it. If all you are is talking about the future but not putting a plan of action, that’s not vision. That’s daydreaming.” Can you talk to us about how you continue to hone your leadership vision, maybe even for what’s next for Convene?

COVID was something that helped us to hone our vision, which is oddly juxtaposed with the COVID situation where we couldn’t get together. What we do is we get together. We don’t manufacture things. We don’t invent or necessarily just write things. We get men and women who are CEOs in a room to work together on their business and do it on a biblical platform. All of a sudden, we couldn’t get together. Thanks to our amazing team. In about 48 hours, we reinvented the organization, and all the groups from coast to coast, 70-plus groups, were getting together on this crazy thing we never heard of before called Zoom.

We became a Zoom room organization in 48 hours. That was a vision from our field leaders and our headquarters leaders. We basically said, “How can we reinvent the original vision?” The original vision as you indicated was, “Let’s create a faith-based version of Vistage,” which is a take-off from these mastermind groups of earlier days that said, “The power of many minds around a table is greater than the power of one.” That was a reinvention of our vision and it was a very exciting time. Now, the virtual Convene groups are emerging as a very significant piece of our business. That’s exciting.

The Ultimate Kingdom: The power of many minds around a table is greater than the power of one.

Thank you for sharing that, Greg. We covered loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Anything else all things leadership that we have not hit on with the price of leadership context that you would like to share with our audience?

Something that I learned in my ServiceMaster days in twenty years was that you need to value people and not see people as a unit of production but as a person to be loved, valued, and appreciated. In those days, that seemed very faith-esque. It's like "That's what you Jesus people do. You love people, pat them on the back, and say I love you." The studies have now concluded that when you love people, they perform at a higher level and the organization is more profitable.

You need to value people. Don’t look at a person as a unit of production but as someone to be loved, valued, and appreciated.

That was a Harvard study called The Service Profit Chain. The Service Profit Chain said exactly what I said, “When you value and appreciate and love people and take care of them, you will end up having them do a better job for you and there will be more profits.” The Service Profit Chain is a big deal and we try to teach that throughout our Convene network.

I love hearing that. That’s so important. In more and more leadership stuff that I’m teaching, they say the L word, which is love. Before, it was like, “Of course, she would say that.” It’s the heart and the love of the leader for the people. I know Ken Blanchard would always tell me, “Tracey, look at every person as an oyster. There’s a pearl in there somewhere. Remember that. Even though they may be slimy and stinky outside, get them to open up and find that pearl in there.” I love that you said don’t treat them as a unit of production. That’s beautiful. Greg, talk to us about Convene. I love for our audience to hear more about it because everybody I talk to, I tell about it. Bud and I are going to a lunch and I’d love to share if somebody is interested in it. What does that look like for them?

Let me come out interestingly from some of the four things that we talked about. We did some surveys that are very empirical and we discovered that people were lonely in leadership. We discovered that people didn’t have a good track to run on how to integrate their faith into their business. We discovered that people were concerned about profitability, faith, and all those kinds of things. At this stage, we looked at other models and the bible. We looked at this whole notion of Jesus and the 12 disciples for 3 years where he was in a peer-to-peer networking group. We said, “How could we create something that champions business performance, profit, people, and excellence, and how do we do that all by laying it on a biblical platform?”

About 28 years ago, we were at Saddleback Church with a pastor named Brian Thatcher and an elder named Rick Green. Tick was in Vistage and Brian was with the Navigators, and they put the peanut butter in the chocolate together and created BBL Forum, Beyond the Bottom Line, turning the Sunday stuff into Monday stuff for better lives and business. That was how we began. Rick Warren, if you’re tuned in, it started at Saddleback Church. It did because Brian and Rick were going to Saddleback Church. Back in the day, Saddleback was not this giant mega church. It was an organization meeting in high school gyms. We’re very grateful for the fanning the flames of Convene that Rick Warren did, and the great blessing that occurred by us being able to build on some of the relationships at Saddleback.

We are basically about business performance and eternal perspective. We’re about people helping each other to run a great business. I’ll never forget there were four objectives that ServiceMaster when I was there. One was to honor God in all we do, help people develop, pursue excellence, and grow profitably. We would often, at times, not be as close to being on budget as we wanted to be. Our president Bill Pollard would remind us, “We’re not the Salvation Army. We’re not the Billy Graham organization. We’re a business. We need to be profitable because if you’re not profitable, you don’t have a business to honor God.”

The Ultimate Kingdom: Honor God, pursue excellence, love people, and according to Harvard's Service Profit Chain. It'll all work together.

Frankly, if you’re a nonprofit, it doesn’t mean you can’t have excess revenue over expenses. You still need to be cash-positive and income, meaning you need to be more than expenses or you don't get to do the mission that you're doing. It's profitable, honors God, pursues excellence, and loves people. According to Harvard's Service Profit Chain, it'll all work together.

How do people find out about the Convene Groups?

Our website is ConveneNow.com. Click on it and get out there. Don’t keep leading alone. That’s not how God designed you. He designed you to work in a community and when you bring an idea, problem, or difficult situation to the group, it happens all the time that you come up with a better solution than banging your head against the wall by yourself in a locked room.

I love that and I love you tied it back to the price of leadership because leadership is a shared endeavor. You have your followers, but leaders have to pour into one another like Jesus with the disciples. For the leaders tuning in out there, who pours into you? I’m not talking about your spouse. You need to get with peers so they can pour into you. I was a Vistage member earlier and when I first got back, I knew enough to know that I could be the smartest person.

This is where we are never meant to do this alone. There are so many benefits and advantages to it. Thank you, Greg, for stepping in, sharing about leadership, and all the work you’re doing with Convene. I know so many people who are involved with it. I met so many business owners and to see the impact you have on them is profound.

It's a pleasure that we get to do it and fan the flames of the vision of our founders to honor the biblical values of community and advance the kingdom of God. It's not very fun to say I'm building a business for myself to make a lot of money so I can scroll it away and die with millions of dollars in the bank. That is not a life worth living.

To build a business for yourself to make a lot of money so you can scroll it away and die with millions of dollars in the bank is not a life worth living.

That’s what happened in the Parable of Talents. That didn’t end too well. He got cast out and called lazy and wicked. I love you’re bringing that perspective. Greg, I thank you so much. To our audience, we wouldn’t have a show without you. We thank you so much for tuning in and for paying the price of leadership. If you like what you’ve heard, please be sure and hit the subscribe button. If you do give us the honor of a review, we would be so thankful, and share this with some other leaders who need to hear some of the wisdom, insights, and experience that Greg has shared. You keep on paying the price of leadership. Greg, thank you so much. I’m thrilled we connected. I look forward to many more tremendous connections in the future.

Thanks, Tracey.

You’re welcome. To our audience out there, you have a tremendous rest of your day. Bye-bye.

 Important Links

• Convene Corporation

• Arrow Leadership

• Christian Leadership Alliance

• One Minute After You Die

• The Service Profit Chain

• The New Common Denominator of Success

About Greg Leith

Greg's life mission statement is “to strengthen great leaders and exponentially accelerate the kingdom”. He is the CEO of Convene Corporation where thousands of Christian CEOs connect around business excellence built on a biblical foundation.

Before that Greg was a senior executive for 20 years with The ServiceMaster Company, a multi-national, $9 billion dollar firm engaged in Health Care and Education management as well as franchising. As a non-profit leader, he served as Vice President of Arrow Leadership and Director of Leadership Development for Christian Leadership Alliance.