Despite what we see in the world, leadership is never ruthless. In fact, the best kinds of leaders are those who know how to follow. Gregory Womack has been leading his whole life, in the streets and in all the worldly sense of the world. It took him to go to prison and lose everything to go back into the man God intended him to be. In this episode, Gregory joins Dr. Tracey Jones to share his journey into leadership and how he did not accept his role as a leader until he accepted Christ as Savior. From an authentic Christian-based perspective, Gregory then shares the price for worldly leadership and how to navigate across through the wisdom and grace of God. Be the beacon of light to others as God intended you to be. Let this conversation with Gregory bring you back to the kind of leadership that could only be ordained by God.
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Gregory Womack - Leaders on Leadership
In this episode, I am so thrilled to introduce my guest. His name is Gregory Womack. Gregory, welcome. It's a delight to have you here.
Thank you. It is a blessing to be here.
It is a blessing indeed. I want to tell our audience a little bit about how Gregory and I connected. First of all, Gregory Womack is a man of God who led his whole life, yet he did not accept his role as a leader until he accepted Christ as his savior. I'm going to tell you where Greg and I first met. Greg and I met behind bars. Those of you who know me and I had Lewis Lee on the show, I met Greg at a monthly book club, where we would read tremendous books about living life triumphally and abundantly.
He was going through the Leading Inmates in Faith & Education, program which is biblically based leadership. For the men who were going through this program, they got to go on as a reward and do this book club. We have known each other for several years. It's been such a delight. Some tremendous things have happened in his life since I first met him. We're going to know all about that. Greg, do you want to unpack a little bit about where you've been and how we met?
We met in SCI Mahanoy. At the time, I was serving a life sentence. In Pennsylvania, a life sentence means you never come home from prison. You're supposed to die in prison. The unique thing about my sentence was I wasn't the person who committed the crime. I was someone who was convicted of being a part of the crime. Even though I was four blocks away, because I took any part in the crime, my conviction and punishment were as severe as the person who pulled the trigger and committed the crime. It's sad to say someone lost their life in that. I can never repay that family.
I think about it all the time and I know the pain because I look at coming back home to my family and what they've been through without me. I pray for them all the time. I thank God for the second chance. As we met in the book club, for me, it was a reawakening of who God created me to be. I've led my whole life but leading in the streets and the worldly aspect was different. I didn't understand why everybody couldn't see what I saw. I would look at a thing and I would see 5 to 10 steps ahead of what needs to be done or how to do a thing.
When people couldn't understand what I was talking about, because I was talking about 5 or 10 steps ahead, I got frustrated, went on my own, and did whatever it was. That eventually led me into trouble because I would get so frustrated that I wouldn't think things fully through. I would go out and do them because I've seen what needs to be done. I didn't like talking about it. It’s like, “We know what we need to do. Let's go do it.”
It wasn't until I came to prison that I began to see that that way of leading was wrong. I didn't have all the answers but I remembered there was somebody who does. The Bible teaches us that if you raise a child in the way they should go when they're older, they will not depart. It took me to go to prison, lose everything, and go back to what I was raised in. As a child, my family sent me to Bible school. My grandmother took me to church. I knew about Jesus but I didn't know who Jesus was. I knew that Jesus saved and all the songs said it. I always say, "The Bible taught me so."
One day, I cried out to him and said, "God, if you're real, speak to me." I got an unction and an urging to go to church. I started going to church. At this time, it was a conflict because I was a leader from my neighborhood and from Philadelphia in the prison, on the worldly side of things. People looked up to me for criminality, violence, and different things. They came to me. When I say they looked to me for violence, I usually quarrel with the violence. I didn't even know God was using me, even in my worldly aspect. I didn't like violence or trouble. When it came, I was able to talk to people, get a mutual understanding, and things like that.
I always was different in that aspect because I never liked vice. I didn't like fighting or any of that stuff. When I accepted Christ, that's when I learned why I didn't like it. It's because God never made me that way. He made me to be a peacemaker for blessed it is the peacemaker. That's what I was being used to. As I accepted Christ, I started seeing that I was a leader. God’s gifts and talents are without repentance. God gave me a gift as a child. He told Jeremiah, "Before I knitted you together in your mother's womb, I knew you." What that verse teaches me is that God gives us everything we need before we come out of the womb.
As people, we live in the gifts that God gives us but it's not until we allow God to lead us and teach us how to utilize those gifts that we begin to walk in a godly fashion and maximize the talents and the gifts that God has given us. For me, it was accepting and grasping the fact that I was a leader, and then understanding that as a leader, you see things differently than other people.
I had to understand then that everybody's not going to see the way I see. Everybody's not born to be a leader like I am. When I did that, I began to accept people for who they were and who they are, and put them in positions of success where would excel and reach their full potential. Though they may not have been a leader in this one area, I wasn't better than them. They could teach me some things. I had to learn to humble myself and allow others to begin to teach me.
As God began to teach me these things, I knew that I was in prison because I didn't understand the full grasp of everything. I was a great athlete in high school. I had college scholarships and different things that were afforded to me but chasing after the world and the lust therein caused me to lose all those things. Sitting in prison, loneliness, weariness, and abandonment, these things came to me and made me realize that I was a little bit different than everybody else. I saw the world differently than everybody else.
The only stimulation I could get while in prison was in books so I read the Bible front to back. I read it again every year. I made it a point to read the whole Bible and begin to live the Bible and understand the Bible. I had to understand it from God's perspective and not mine. The Bible talks about, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." I knew Jesus said it but I didn't understand it at the time. As I began to try to live the Bible, I began to understand that I desire to live for God but I was going to fail sometimes.
The Bible says that all sin falls short in the glory of God. I had to realize that I was one of those all and accept that. It enabled me to love other people. I started seeking knowledge. I wanted to be better and become a better person. Your book club, that's how we came about. I started reading. When you offered that opportunity to keep growing and look at things from other aspects, that's what I did. I chose it. It was one of the best decisions I made after accepting Christ in my life.
I look back at that. I remember our discussions and you leading the men in there. What a beautiful time. It still is a phenomenal time as it's slowly opening back up. How long were you behind bars?
I did 29 years.
Just so people understand, it didn't just happen and Greg popped out. That was a beautiful segue into the price of leadership. There's a price for worldly leadership and it's an awful one because it's a trap. It looks alluring. You guys taught me 1 thing or 2 about how that happens and how you wind back behind bars. We're talking about the price of real authentic Christian-based leadership.
My father did this speech many years ago. He talks about the four things that you are going to have to be paid to truly be a leader and not a leader in name only. The first one is loneliness. Could you unpack what loneliness means to you as a leader? I'm sure you felt it behind bars and in the outside world. Also, some words of advice for our audience if they're going through a season of loneliness.
I spoke on a piece of it before. It's looking at a situation, seeing every step of what needs to be done, and realizing what needs to be done but then looking around and realizing that nobody else can see those steps and has the vision that God has given to you as a leader. You have to go into the Bible and remember what God said in Habakkuk. Write the vision down so that those who read it can run with it. As you're writing, you're looking for support, energy, and help. God has only given you that vision because God has placed you in that leadership.
Write the vision down so that those who read it can run with it.
That loneliness is a battle because you start feeling depressed. You start taking it on as if it's you in the world. I forget the prophet who said, "God, they killed everybody else. I'm the only one left." You start feeling like, "I'm the only one that's doing this." I thank God that He always left a rambling and has somebody to call and encourage you. You get on the TV, see something, and remember, how can you be the only one left when you have the Almighty God with you? You keep persevering, pushing on, sharing, and seeking wisdom.
As God did with Moses, he said, "Moses, as you're building a temple, call this person because I've taught them what to do. I've given them the gift of how to build what needs to be built inside of the tabernacle." God will use you and show you the people that you need because he's already gifted them to help fulfill the vision that he's given to you. In doing that, you understand and you better cope with the loneliness. I can't say it leaves because, on the next task, you'll go through it again. It's a continued cycle but as you begin to trust and rely on God more, you don't dwell in it as long.
Even Christ said, "I'm going someplace the rest of you can't go." They're like, "What do you mean?" I love that you said that it is a cycle until we get to the other side but we don't dwell on it. As you grow spiritually, you move through it a lot quicker. I'm sure you've seen that in your development. Greg, that was a beautiful discussion on loneliness.
Let's talk about weariness. How do you stay not just in good physical form? We talked about that in prison trying to eat well, stay well, sleep well, and keep your mind well. How do you stay atop finding form one? My dad would say what you said, "There's always going to be a few people who see and do more but a lot of people are going to do less. You're going to end up having to pick up a lot more of the weight.” How do you stay strong?
The first thing that I remember is that God forgave me and was patient with me. As I am walking this journey of faith and this journey of leadership, it is difficult. I started a business when I came home and it was a cleaning business. My wife and I couldn't get any employees. The ones who did come would get paid Friday and don't show up again until Wednesday. They expect to get paid for Monday and Tuesday for the week. It became a thing to go to work every day. It was a struggle. I started becoming judgmental and growing weary. I was like, "I'm done."
This thing of leadership gets like that because you want others to step in and people to do these things. You also want them to be right and live right for Christ because you're standing up in your profession, Jesus as your Lord and savior but yet you're going to the bar, smoking weed, getting drunk, and cheating on your wife. Also, you're not married but living in a house with a woman or a man that you don't plan to marry.
As a leader, I look at it and I'm like, "How can I put you in a leadership position? I don't want anybody to follow you because I wouldn't follow you." That causes you to grow weary and me to think, "I'm tired of this. Lord, give me something I can do by myself. I don't need anybody else." That's when I remembered that God was patient and merciful with me. He was forgiving of me. The Bible says, "When you pray, forgive if you expect your father to forgive you of anything."
It was at that moment that I realized I don't have a heaven or hell to put anybody in. I can't judge someone and cause them not to walk in the path that God has laid for them, that God already knew they would walk in. How do I know I'm not the light that may click in their hearts and minds and make them say, "I want to get right with God?" That's what helps me fight through that weariness of wanting to give up on people and on a vision that God has given me with people to help people. That's the key for me to come out of weariness.
Everybody out there reading would say that is the hardest thing. People don't get it. God is so patient with us. You may be the one that makes it click in. That was beautiful about staying strong. The next thing he talked about was abandonment. Abandonment isn't a fear of abandonment or abandoning your dog or cat. It was abandoning what you like and want to think about in favor of what you ought and need to think about.
When we were in prison, there were thousands of men there and 15 to 20 maybe at the book club. People would think and do things that they want to do. It takes discipline to focus on what you need to focus on. Now that you're back or even inside with all the stuff going around, how do you purge all the nonsense and stay very tightly focused on what you know you need to do, especially as the clock has been going on for 29 years?
Dealing with abandonment, God has brought me somebody who won't abandon me and someone for life. The Bible says that the two shall lead their parents and become one. Therefore, I'll never be abandoned again. Praise God.
Amen.
On the inside, dealing with abandonment was hurtful but the sting of it left after 29 years. You have to think about it. After 29 years, how many times have I dealt with the abandonment of someone I cared about and walked by myself? The first one hurt and it lasts for maybe three months. The next one lasts for a month and a half. The next one, a couple of weeks. It became to the point where I started looking at relationships as they'll leave soon. I'm not giving my all or pouring my all in. On the inside, what you said brought me back to something I physically did.
I went outside, stood in the middle of the yard, and spun around in a circle. I looked at thousands of men walking around, out there playing, and doing whatever they were doing. I was the only person standing where I was by myself. I said, "With all these people around, how could I still be lonely and in this situation by myself?" I realized that we all were hurting and didn't know how to love.
To deal with an abandonment issue, the scripture says, "If you leave your father, mother, sister, or brother for my namesake, I'll give you more. I'll bring people to you." I realized that I was a son. As a son, I had a father, and then I had brothers. It was Luther Vandross who made a song. All this was happening at the same time. This is how good God is and how sovereign. The song said, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." That makes so much sense.
Christian Leadership: "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with."
If I can't be with my physical family and those who walked away from me and who I want to be here, let me love my brothers who are here. As a leader, I began to develop different programs. We started having a Sunday prayer table every Sunday morning with rain, snow, or whatever we had. If they let us outside, we went outside. We met and prayed.
I developed a Christian talent show. We call it the Gospel Jamboree. People who were in the church but not a part of the church, meaning they weren't in the choir but they could sing, act, tell jokes, rap, or dance, we had something for them. I developed a program called Christians Preparing for Release, CPR. In that, what we did was we had workshops where we talked to men. We prepared them for release to come out into the world and serve God out here.
Most men in prison never serve God on the outside. We don't know what that feels like. I began to cultivate a family to deal with that abandonment. I began to see that other men were dealing with it and loved it too. That's how I dealt with it on the inside. Out here, it's different because I have options. I know who loves and serves God. I still deal with the abandonment issue because as a believer, everybody's not going to accept your way of living.
In 29 years, I dreamed of coming home and getting my family back together. Also, being a leader that leads everybody to Christ and they all fall in line. When I came home, that didn't happen. Family members were upset. "You don't want to smoke weed?" No, I don't want to smoke. "You don't want to drink?" "No, I don't. Give me water. I'm okay with water." They started treating me badly and abandoned me. I had to deal with those issues but on the outside, I’m like, “I waited all this time to come to help you.”
God showed me, "Greg, you want to help somebody who never asks for help. You're upset that they're not taking it. Even though they needed the help, they didn't ask. You can't force it on them." I had to go back to, “If you can't be with the ones you love, love the ones you're with.” I surrounded myself with the body of believers. We have fun.
We have game night once a month at different people's houses. We come together, go on trips together, and go out to dinner. It's all believers. The best thing about it is that 95% of the people who participate are men that I was incarcerated with. We all come together with our families and wives. We have fun like that. That's how I deal with it out here.
I remember when we were in there and people would be coming up for release. The thing was always like, "If you leave your Bible in here, you're going to be back in to read it again." Every time I go in there at the bookshop, I look at those bibles and I'm like, "I wonder whose hands touch this? I wonder if they're still following God if they found a Bible on the outside." For the audience out there, this isn't for getting out of print. This is a thing in life. A quarter of three strands is not easily broken. That was the big thing we all talked about, the stuff you're learning in the books. You have to be with people. People will always let you down but the covenantal relationship is Christ. Your wife is a covenantal relationship.
You have to get with the people that you know are threaded with the love of God and that draws you all together. What stuck out in what you said was real leadership, we love it well. We don't just do well and tell people, "We can see what they need but that's up to the Holy Spirit to win them. All we can do is love them.” He already knew before. Even in the womb, he knows what's going to happen. Our job is to love well and the Holy Spirit does the rest. Greg, that was beautiful.
Loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and then vision. What is your vision? You had a vision for one day when you got out. You're then out and God is blessing you abundantly. The best is yet to come and we want to finish the race strong. How do you continue to craft your vision for Gregory Womack in this next season of life that God has given you?
The first thing I had to learn about vision and coming home was humility. I say that because as I spoke earlier, 29 years was my vision of coming home, helping, leading my family to Christ, and ministering. God had given me a vision of having my family in a church and praying with me in tears. I'm going to get a little emotional because, within four months of coming home, the vision was fulfilled. I didn't know it would be me ministering at my uncle's funeral. My father was there. My mother didn't come. My aunts, my family, everyone was there and they got to see me minister the gospel of Jesus Christ.
It was a blessing and a powerful moment in my life. I didn't think it would be at a funeral. That's God. That's what God gives me. That's why I say humility because I thought I would be up in the pulpit somewhere and sharing the gospel in the church and on Sunday. Humility is the way God will have it done is how God has always prepared it to be done.
The way God will have it done is how God has always prepared it to be done.
In twisting that vision, I said, "God, you see things differently." He says, "My ways are not your ways, nor are my thoughts your thoughts. As high as the sky is from the ground so are my thoughts from yours." I'm like, "Lord, what do you want?" I had a vision to come home, drive trucks, and do these things. God is like, "Not now." I asked what vision he had for me.
He gave it to me. I was calling you to talk about it. It's understanding technology and how to use the platform that we're on like social media and different things to honor God. He showed it to me through the young people, how they can type 3 or 4 words and have hundreds of people meet up at one spot. God said, "Utilize that. If you are still trying to teach and minister the way they did in the ‘80s and ‘90s, that's not going to work because the culture has moved past that. To reach the people, you have to be other people. Be in the world but not of the world."
If I'm in the world and the world is using technology, then I have to advance to use technology. My vision is to get the ministry onto some of these platforms on social media and different things so that I can reach people. Also, going into juvenile facilities or schools and talking to the children. God has blessed me to do some of those things. I'm a referee. I'm able to teach kids but the thing that I have to grab hold of is the culture, where at certain places, they don't want you outright to say Jesus.
God says to be as wise as a serpent but as harmless as a dove. I'm asking him how to use Jesus and keep Jesus in everything. One thing he gave me through my grandmother was my cross. My grandmother gave it to me. I wear it. When I'm talking about God, I'll grab hold of it and let people know, "This is what I'm talking about. My Lord, my savior." I'll say Jesus and get it to a point where I'm not offensive, which is impossible. Talking about Jesus, some people will be offended. I understand that. If I'm not allowed back, that's not what God had for me.
My vision is to reach millions of people. I do have a story and a word. God raised me on both sides of the track. I'm from Philadelphia and was raised in Norristown. I can hold a conversation with different levels of society, be effective, and communicate in all areas. Also, be receptive and received by those people. I am truly excited.
I’m meeting here with you with this blessing and vision. I’m fulfilled that I was working with you or doing something because you are truly appreciated for taking time out of your life and your schedule to come inside and help someone like me feel like a human being. Someone like me feels like somebody does care. You care enough to come in and give us free books. Someone taught me that every blessing is not what the person asks for. Sometimes it's what the person needs.
The old proverb says, "If you teach a person to feed a fish, they'll eat a day. If you teach them to fish, they'll eat the rest of their life." You're coming in, giving me the tools, and helping me learn how to fish and feed myself. Coming out here, I had to read after 29 years. It'll be hard for people to imagine how much the world has changed.
It's hard because they live through it but you have to think about being taken out of the world. In 1993, I was taken out of the world so it stopped right there. I didn't have any growth or see the internet. When I left, cell phones were fitting in my hand. Only a certain amount of people could afford them, doctors and lawyers, and that was it. I come home and see five-year-olds have cell phones and know how to use them. You can do everything on it.
These are things that I had to take the time to sit down and read how to do this, like learning how to work Google. I was scared to talk on the phone for four months. I had to read and other things that I'm learning. These are tools that you taught me, how to digest a book, read with comprehension, understand what you're reading, and eat the meat and spit out the bones of it. I'm thankful for that. Part of my vision is not just to utilize the gifts that God has blessed me through people like you but to pass them on to the next generation and help them see their worth.
Christian Leadership: Part of my vision now is not just to utilize the gifts that God has blessed me through people like you, but to pass them on to the next generation and help them to see their worth.
Part of the abandonment and loneliness was me looking in the mirror and understanding who I was as a man of God, as a child of God, as an ambassador for God, and as a peculiar person. Not only accepting it but being excited that I was. I'm going to teach that to the next generation. You don't have to be like everybody else or do what everybody else does. Be yourself. Be an individual. Stand out from other people for one reason or another. Not just you're drawing attention to yourself because you want to be flamboyant or noticed but because you're unique. God didn't make you like someone else.
Someone once told me, "If God wanted you to be like them, then you guys would have the same name." You have a different name and fingerprints for a reason. God made you an individual. That's what I want to teach the next generation. That's a part of my vision and fulfilling it will be through starting a podcast, traveling, doing speeches, or encouraging children. Wherever God leads me, I'm willing to accept it. That's where the humility came in.
I have to realize that it's not my vision. It's the vision and purpose that God has for me that I'll be walking out. In doing that, I have to be accepting of what God says. When He says go, go, like he did to the children of Israel. “Stay,” they stayed. “Turn,” they turned. That's how I have to be. That's where I'm at, trusting God and allowing him to lead.
Every time I sit here and think about where we were, those were beautiful times. You talk about how I blessed you, you guys bless me. You know I was with you during a stage in my life when some awful things were going on. It was my respite going in there. You guys spoke the truth to me. When I was getting into my negativity, I had to go back to you to get reoriented to Christ.
The feeling was so mutual. You think I bless you but I got twenty times the blessing getting to pour in and have you guys poured into me. What is the best way for people to get ahold of you? You talk about talking to schools and are available to share your testimony. We'll be sharing with the people when you get your podcast together. What's the best way for people to connect with you?
The best way to connect with me would be through email. My email is GregoryWomack22@Gmail.com. That would be the best way to reach me. Send me an email. I check them every day. I'll get right back to you. If anyone wants to speak further with me or invite me somewhere to speak, I have no problem. If it's about the kingdom, I'm about the business. If it's kingdom business, let's go. I'm all for the Lord.
Greg, I want to thank you again for the reconnection, for being such an important part of my life, and for the wisdom that you shared with our audience. Yours is truly a peculiar but unbelievably anointed perspective. Listening to you takes me back to our time there. I can see how God has continued to bless you mightily. Your words will truly bless all the audience. Thank you, Gregory.
Thank you for everything, Dr. Tracey Jones. I truly appreciate you. The perspective you gave during those hours that you came, you didn't realize it but it allowed me to jump over the fence. During those hours, I wasn't in prison. I was a human being. I was living and learning as a human is supposed to. It encouraged me to keep going. Thank you. I continue to pray for you, your marriage, and your business, that God will bless, multiply, and continue to use you in a mighty way. Thank you for everything. God bless you.
Thank you, Gregory. We have to give a shoutout to Marcia and Ed Sinkovitz who started the whole ministry because if it weren't for them, it's all about connections to people you meet, and then the books you read. For anybody out there contemplating getting involved in a prison ministry, there's nothing like it. Run, don't walk, to your nearest person who can make a difference in people's lives. Greg, you had me at the end there talking about blessing my heart. I can go out and move mountains again. Thank you for your words of encouragement.
To our audience, I want to thank you so much for reading, for being part of our tremendous tribe, and for paying the price of leadership. If you like what you read, please be sure to hit the subscribe button. If you would do us the honor of a review, that's so important. That helps other people find what we are putting out there that may need some wisdom and encouragement in paying the price of leadership.
Share with other people because what Greg shared, the whole world needs to hear. We thank you for being a part of this and for paying the price of leadership. Remember, you'll be the same person years from now that you are now, except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read so make them both tremendous. Have a tremendous rest of the day. God bless you.
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About Gregory Womack
Gregory Womack is a man of God who led his whole life. Yet did not accept his role as a leader until he accepted Christ as Savior! Listen to a story that could only be ordained by God.
