Episode 186 - Jon Gordon - Leaders On Leadership
The business scene often glorifies the nonstop grind, believing that the only people who succeed are those who do not even take a pause or a break. However, this means they do not have to celebrate their wins and feel gratitude to the people around them. Jon Gordon makes sure that he does not commit this mistake and therefore puts gratefulness and joy as his core values. Joining Dr. Tracey Jones, he explains how gratitude plays a huge role in becoming a positive leader who does not lose sight of their vision. Jon also remembers how he jumped back from a failing cookie venture to launching a successful leadership training program.
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Jon Gordon - Leaders On Leadership
Welcome to the show where we pull back the curtain on leadership and we talk with leaders of all ages and stages about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. I'm so excited because I have a very special guest. The one, the only, the tremendous, Jon Gordon.
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Jon, welcome.
It’s good to be with you. How are you doing?
I'm tremendous that I'm talking to you. You're probably like, “Jon Gordon. Don't I know that name?” You do. Are you ready? Jon is a husband and a father. He's also an author. His best-selling books and talks have inspired millions of readers and audiences around the world. He's the author of the timeless classics that we've all read, The Energy Bus, The Carpenter, Training Camp, The Power of Positive Leadership, The Power of a Positive Team, and his latest, The One Truth.
When he is not running through airports or speaking to businesses, hospitals, or schools, you can find him playing pickleball and taking long walks, which are where he gets most of his tremendous ideas. Jon believes in keeping his bio short because his past accomplishments are meaningless. You remind me of my dad there. What matters most is that he says something today that will inspire you to take action tomorrow. Jon, thank you again for carving out of your busy schedule to share with our audience.
I love that you're doing this and it's called Tremendous Leadership because it’s your dad’s brand. It’s what he was all about. My daughter is 25 and is speaking as well. She speaks with me. She does leadership talks. She does talks about teamwork and mindset based on my teachings. She and I are doing this, and you and your dad have that bond too. I love that.
I love that. How I connected with Jon is Jon shared the stage with my father. About a couple of months ago, we were both with Lead Like Jesus on their board with Ken Blanchard, Phil Hodges, and Phyllis Hendry. We were doing a 25-year anniversary and Jon was on there. You made a crack about my father when you were talking about coming up with new speech material. You said he said, “I don't need new material. I need new audiences,” or something like that. As a speaker too, I laugh about that. Do you want to share anything about my dad before we get started?
Sure. I learned about him a lot from Ken Blanchard talking about him. Ken would tell me stories because Ken is my mentor. I know your dad mentored Ken in many ways. It's cool how the torch gets passed. Ken would say that your dad said, “I don't need new material. I need a new audience.” It's about knowing what you're here to share and your core message. Often, we think we have to change it up all the time when you have this core message and you share it over and over again.
I told your dad's advice to Damon West whom I wrote The Coffee Bean with. Damon is known as the Coffee Bean guy, which is about not being an egg, not being a carrot. The carrot gets weakened in hot water. The egg gets hardened in hot water. They are both affected by the culture, the environment, and the negativity. The coffee bean transforms the water. It transforms the environment. It is not impacted by the environment, but it defines its circumstances and its environment. The power is within that coffee bean, and we have that power as well. As he's going out there sharing The Coffee Bean because we wrote this book together, I would always give him your dad's advice. It's so cool how a life touches a life. Did he grow up with a big family and a lot of kids?
Yeah. Six of us.
He grew up with a bunch of kids. He would say he didn't sleep alone until he got married, which is hilarious. Humor but incredible leadership. People would ask him, “How are you doing?” He is like, “I'm doing tremendous.” I talk about positivity. How can you not be positive when you are feeling tremendous? Your dad paved the way for guys like Ken and people like me to do what we do. It's so special to be with you. My daughter is carrying on the tradition as you carry on the tradition of your dad. It’s cool.
I can't imagine. That's so exciting. We talked about loneliness. One of the things he talked a lot about, and you hit on it John, is he was so great about leadership but also really funny. He had this beautiful duality about the bittersweetness of life, but he talked about the price of leadership. It was one of the top speeches that he gave. It's one of our little life-changing classics.
He says that if you're going to be doing leadership, it's not for everybody. If it was, the world would be a different place. He talks about the four tenets of leadership that you're going to have to be paying. The first of those is loneliness. We're all about positivity, energy, and atmosphere, but there are times in leadership when you are going to face loneliness. Can you tell us a little bit about maybe a time in your career when you dealt with that or what you would advise our audience if they are in a season of loneliness?
Yeah. Personally, I dealt with loneliness in terms of, for years, I was out there speaking, writing, traveling, and going through the grind. It was me coming home and then being with my family. I didn't really have friends. I did not have friends for a long time. I couldn't make time for the friendships because I was so busy on the road speaking and doing this work. In many ways, it felt lonely.
COVID hit and I realized how much I miss people and how important relationships were. For COVID, it was the great separator. For me, it was a great uniter because I spent a lot of time with friends during that time and realized how valuable friendships were. It enhanced that connection with those friends and others.
When I think about leaders, I invest a lot in leaders and work with a lot of leaders. My goal is so they don't feel lonely because I know it could be very lonely at the top. You’ve got to build a team around you that you can pour into and who pours into you. You also need a group of colleagues. We see masterminds developing. We see confidants, inner circles, or whatever it may be. You want to build your board or build your circle of people who understand what you're going through and who can speak into your life.
Since it can get very lonely at the top, you have to build a team around you. Pour into them and they will pour into you.
YPO is big with that in terms of creating forums where different leaders will talk about their personal lives, their struggles, and their challenges so that we address loneliness. A leader who is isolated and lonely and feels separate and divided winds up doing things that are not good for them, their teams, and organizations. We want leaders to move towards wholeness, connection, and unity where they then feel more power and more at peace. They have these incredible relationships that make life and leadership so much more rewarding. I often say, “You may be alone at times, but you don't have to be lonely.”
You hit on it too. That is a choice. Going through the grind, we've all been there. We have grown our businesses. It's tough to pass up. You're hustling. I know how hard my father hustled until his last breath, but then you made the choice. That is a choice. You've got to be intentional about putting those networks out. I know you pour into people. Do you have a mastermind group that you're part of too that pours into you?
It’s not an official mastermind, but I have a group of friends that I connect with. Ed Mylett, who is a big name in the motivational speaking world, is a great friend. There’s Erwin McManus who is a pastor out of LA and also does a lot of speaking. I'll hang out with Erwin. A lot of different speakers are also my friends. We also are connecting and talking. There’s also John Acuff, Donald Miller, and Rory Vaden. This group will get together once a year. There's an author for authors meeting. We will get together and all share different ideas and practices. That's one thing I do.
Also, I work with a lot of sports teams. I'm good friends with Sean McVay, Eric Spoelstra with the Miami Heat, the head coach there, Dave Roberts, the Los Angeles Dodgers manager, and P.J. Fleck, the coach of Minnesota football. I connect with a lot of leaders that way. We connect, share, and talk about life, growth, and challenges. I have poured into and become friends with a lot of these leaders. I have found that the more that they have people around them including me, it's beneficial to them.
I love that. For our audience out there, some of you may think, “I'm not in a formal group.” That's okay. I've been in a season where I was in formal groups. I'm like you. I have my inner circle. My Peter, James, and John, my top tier of the people you meet. That's what my dad would talk about. For the audience out there, it can be something more formal. When you get to the point where you're established, you start to coalesce together. Thank you for that advice.
I have one other piece of advice. One great thing to do is to get on a text thread with a group of friends. Maybe it's 4 or 5 people. For us, it's 4 or 5 guys. We do a devotional. Every day, we send out a devotional and we all comment our thoughts on the devotional. It's a way to stay connected and also grow together.
Gratitude: Get on a text thread with a group of friends and do a devotional every day. This way, you can stay connected and grow together.
I love it. That's awesome. I know a lot of people do daily devotionals together. That’s very powerful. The next thing my dad talked about is weariness. As you're going through the grind, we're still more humans. My father would always tell me, “You're going to find a few people that do more than what's required, but a lot that do less.” You as an entrepreneur are wearing so many hats. You see the vision. How do you stay in top form? I know you talked about going out, walking, and playing pickleball, but how do you stay in your most tremendous form?
That's more important now than ever. I really believe we're understanding the importance of physical fitness for our mental health and how important exercise is. We live in a world where a lot of people will sit on the couch and watch TV. They're not active anymore. They don't walk. We've got to make sure that we are physically fit.
For me, as a former athlete, there was a time in my life when I stopped working out and stopped exercising and people noticed. My friend, Eric Spoelstra, the Miami Heat coach, said, “You used to look like a writer. You now look like an athlete again.” What happened was I had gotten fat and gotten heavy. I started to exercise again. I work out several times a week with weights and I build muscle.
From there, I'm also walking every single day for up to an hour. I walk and practice gratitude. Research shows you can't be stressed and thankful at the same time. While I'm walking and practicing gratitude, it's a double boost of positive energy for my life. It makes you feel tremendous when you do these gratitude walks. Those walks also have turned into walks of prayer which have been great as well.
I do these gratitude walks, and then I also am eating right and eating healthy. In the old days of people on the road eating a lot of junk food, too many speakers have eaten that way. I really focus on eating healthy even when I'm on the road. I've got the diet right. I've got the exercise. I've got the weights, which is essential. Men especially, but women as well, the more strong muscle you have from lifting, and it doesn't have to be big muscle, will enhance your longevity and your health for a longer period of time.
I feel better at 53 than when I was in my 30s. People say I look like I'm in my early 40s. It's because of my physical fitness, my overall health, and how I take care of myself. There's sleep. You have to make sure you are sleeping. I don't drink a lot. Once in a while, I drink. I'm not against drinking, but I don't drink a lot because I know it produces inflammation. There's a lot of sugar there, and it does affect your body and your motivation on going. I try to have really good habits.
When I'm on the road, I have to train like an athlete. When you're on the road, you're an executive, or you're in business and you're running a company, you have to have endurance. You have to have strength. You have to be able to get through the grind of a day. The more physically fit you are, the more mentally fit you'll be.
The more physically fit you are, the more mentally fit you will be.
I love that you said physical fitness is tied to your mental health. There's so much focus on mental health. Let's stop by and look at the body because we're all one entity together. I love the weights too. For women, it is bone density. If you want osteopenia at 55, don't pick up anything. That's why I got two Australian Shepherd puppies a couple of months ago. I'm going to have really hard bones.
I love that.
Thank you. We talked about loneliness and weariness. He talked about abandonment. It’s not abandonment in the sense of fear of abandonment or abandoning an animal. What Charles talked about was abandoning what you like and want to do in favor of what you ought and need to do. He was very hyper-focused as you said about him. The coffee bean, what is that one thing? I'm sure you get so many people that say, “You should write a book on this or this.” How do you stay focused on the best and highest use of your time of what God has uniquely called you to do? I'm sure anything you touch you could do.
That's true. In many cases, I've also done things wrong. I started Positive Cookie. I've created the Positive Cookie with a team of people. I invested in this business and thought it was going to be really successful. Every cookie came with a quote inside, a positive quote. It was an encouraging kind of cookie. I then realized it cost too much to make the cookie for what we could sell it for in grocery stores and I quickly had to walk away. I lost a lot of money. I could have stayed with it and eventually made it successful, but I heard the words loud and clear. It came to me. It was, “I did not put you on earth to sell cookies.”
I love that.
When that happened, I said, “Even though it was $150,000, I'm going to walk away,” and I did. Do you know what's cool? I said, “Why am I here? Besides writing and speaking, why am I here?” It was clear that I had the energy and capacity to do more than write and speak. If I could make a cookie and create a cookie company, I could do something else. That's when we launched Positive Leadership training, Positive Teamwork training, and Energy Bus certification. We have Jon Gordon certified that we’ve created this whole training company around. We're developing positive leaders, their mindset, their leadership, and their teamwork so they can create a great culture, great teams, and great organizations. That's what we're all about.
That came about because of the failed cookie. I talk about how it was a positive cookie, and then it became a negative cookie when it failed and I lost all that money. It became a positive cookie again when I realized I would've never started the training company if it wasn't for Positive Cookie. That's a great example that every challenge is an opportunity. Every failure is a lesson along the way.
It helped me realize, “Stay focused on your core. What are you meant to do? Why are you here? There are a million things you can do, but what are you here to do?” That comes with prayer. That comes with walking with your creator and saying, “God, what is my purpose? What is your plan for me? I'm open.” I'll often say, “God, make it idiot-proof because I'm an idiot. Make it so clear to me that this is for me or not for me.”
You'll try things out along the way. You might mess up here or you might fail there. You might say, “That's not for me.” Sometimes, you have to do trial and error, but for the most part, you don't want too many big mistakes where you go down the wrong path. You’ll spend your whole life climbing the wrong ladder. For me, I'm very clear. It's writing, speaking, training, and developing leaders. Along the way, it's around the idea that positivity is a competitive advantage. If I stay focused on that for the rest of my life, I'm going to be pretty solid.
Sacred Cows Make the Best Burgers
Your plate's going to roll. Thank you for your transparency because a lot of times, as entrepreneurs and as people who have a lot of energy, drive, vision, and ambition, we see things. We're like, “We could make it work,” and you could make it work. One of my favorite book titles is Sacred Cows Make the Best Burgers. You have to know when to hold them and when to fold them. I love that you heard the voice that said, “You could do it, but there's better use of your time.”
I love that you said that that let you know you still have the energy and drive for some other creative element in your life and you got with God about it. Thank you. That story will really stick with me for a long time. We've all been there. I'm sure a lot of people on the show are like, “Him too?” I don't really know if that encouraged them.
We talked about loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. There’s then the word vision. We know from the Bible how important vision is. A lot of people call it different things. Growing up under visionaries like Ken Blanchard, Og Mandino, and Zig Ziglar, I'm like, “They have a different kind of blood flowing through their veins.” My dad was very pragmatic. He was like, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it.” This poetry but also the plumbing aspect of it. Can you tell us how you set forward your vision? I[1] know you talk about prayer, but how do you envision for the future?
We teach this and train on this. We call it a telescope and microscope. Telescope is the big-picture vision of where you're going and why you're going there. It's your vision and your mission. We don't get burned out because of what we do. We get burned out because we forget why we do it. You know your why. You know the way. As a result of that, you're not going to let obstacles get in the way. The big-picture vision is essential.
A lot of times people have this big-picture vision but they don't take action. Your dad would say, “You got to do it.” That's the microscope. The microscope is the zoom focus actions that you'll take to realize the picture in our telescope. In our training, we have them write down, “What's in your telescope? What has to happen for your microscope to realize the picture and your telescope?” It creates a practical vision that you can implement.
What I have found is there are so many teachings out there where people say, “What's your vision? Where do you want to go?” and they leave it alone at that. That's it. They're done with that. I say, “There's more to it.” To really bring it to life, we teach to have one word for the year. Pick a word for the year that will give you meaning, mission, passion, and purpose. Your one word embodies the why behind the bigger-picture vision that allows you to remember it and take action each day. Often, we lose sight of our goals. We may even lose sight of our vision. One word is something you remember every day. It allows you to focus on it. It sticks.
We often lose our set of goals and the sight of our vision. But remembering just one word every day allows you to get your focus back.
My word this 2024 is first. I[2] t's first because I want to experience God's love first. God's first love is why we love. There's a scripture that says because of His love that flows through us, it gives us gratitude and joy. I was thinking, “I want more gratitude and joy in my life this year because I've been so busy striving and driving.”
The training company has taken a lot out of me because I'm leading it in many ways. Until I can hire a CEO, I'm running it. I'm also speaking and writing. What I'm realizing is I've got to connect to God first and seek the kingdom first. In that first love, I will have more gratitude and joy. That's driving me this 2024. It's what I think about every single day. It allows me to focus on the picture of what I'm trying to achieve in the telescope.
That is His highest calling for us. He wants us in communion with Him on earth. We're going to have it in eternity. I love that you talked about how to focus on that. Remember. Our Father has already seen it through to the end. He already knows who your CEO is. He already knows when they're coming. He already knows what's going to happen. We can focus on that and all the rest of it files into it.
I'm praying that happens from what He knows. I'm praying for a great man to come into my daughter's life at 25 who will love, honor, and adore Him. If He already knows that, God, make it happen, please.
That's beautiful. I finally found my great man at 56. It was worth the wait. That's all I have to say.
I love that. That's inspiring.
That's a perfect assignment. We talked about loneliness, awareness, abandonment, and vision. Is there anything else for our listeners out there that you would like to share about leadership? I then want to talk about how they can contact you with your courses and your books.
I love that you're doing this. Your dad was such a hero to me and to so many people. It's pretty incredible that you're carrying on that legacy. I think about the fact that he was so positive but also pragmatic. People often think about positivity. Being a positive leader is about Pollyanna positive. This is not about ignoring reality. It's about maintaining optimism, belief, and faith in order to create a better reality. As a leader, your positive mindset will help you be a more positive and better leader to build a stronger team. It's essential.
I want to give one strategy for people on how they can be more positive. People say, “Be positive,” but how? The best advice I ever heard was from Dr. James Gills, the only person on the planet to complete six double Ironman triathlons. That means you do an Ironman, and then a day later, you do another one. The last time he did it, he was 59 years old. He was asked how he did it. He said, “I've learned to talk to myself instead of listening to myself. If I listen, I hear all the fear, the negativity, the doubt, and all the reasons why I can't finish this race. If I talk to myself, I could feed myself with the words and the encouragement that I need to keep on moving forward.”
As a leader, there are going to be days that we need to talk to ourselves instead of listening to those negative voices and negative thoughts. Those negative thoughts are not coming from you. How do I know? Who would ever choose to have a negative thought? The negative thoughts are always coming in. They're spiritual. They try to make you feel powerless. They try to weaken you and try to make you feel anxious. They divide you.
When I think about thoughts, I think about the fact that overthinking is always associated with negative thoughts. We never say, “I have too many positive thoughts.” We never say, “I'm too grateful right now. I have too much encouragement right now. I'm feeling too confident.” We always associate overthinking with negative thoughts because that's what happens. Negative thoughts come in and they create clutter.
The root of the Greek word anxious means to separate and divide. When you're anxious, you feel separate and divided. That's what negative thoughts do. That's what fear does. It separates. It divides you. It makes you feel weak and powerless. All mental health disorders report feelings of being alone, isolated, and disconnected. What are people dealing with more than ever? Leaders are feeling lonely, disconnected, and separated. People are. Kids are.
The One Truth: Elevate Your Mind, Unlock Your Power, Heal Your Soul
I wrote The One Truth, my newest book. It came out months ago. That book is helping people to have a high state of mind to win the battle of their mind. It's based on biblical principles. Once you understand the one truth, you'll be like a Jedi in this world with a more positive mindset to lead better. Talk to yourself. Don't listen to those negative thoughts. You speak truth to the lies day in and day out. That will give you more power and more peace in God's presence to lead in a more positive and effective way. That's one tip I wanted to share.
Thank you. I know for our audience out there and for me, that talking to yourself is beautiful. I know your books are all on Amazon and they can pick them up. Is there a great place where people can connect with you? Is that how they can sign up for some of these courses and the leadership training that you have?
They can go to JonGordon.com or JonGordonCertified.com. We have a certification program that allows people to train and teach all of my concepts, principles, practices, and frameworks. That's a lot of fun. That was something I was expecting to do, but I know that's what I'm supposed to do after the whole cookie thing. That's our next wave. How can we impact leaders and trainers who are going out there to share this message of positivity, mindset, leadership, and teamwork?
We give them all the tools to do that and make an impact in their organizations or in other people's organizations. They can go to JonGordonCertified.com. On Twitter, Instagram, and social media, I'm @JonGordon11. I write a weekly positive tip every week. I've been writing it since 2002. People could always sign up for that. I have a ton of free resources to help people as well.
I love it. I cannot thank you enough for your time and energy. I probably won't sleep for about two days because your energy is so amazing. It's so tremendous. Thank you for getting to serve alongside you with Ken and Lead like Jesus and what you meant to my father and what you meant to me. I'd love to stay connected. I know our audience is going to be so blessed, inspired, and informed by the information that you shared.
I look forward to it. Thank you so much. With Ken Blanchard, really quickly on that, I have to say he changed my life. He wrote the foreword to The Energy Bus. If he hadn’t written the foreword, I don't think that book would take off like it did. Your dad impacted him. He impacted me. You and I are impacting the next generation. Let's go do it.
It’s an honor. To our tremendous audience out there, thank you so much. We couldn't do it without you. Thank you for paying the price of leadership. Remember. You're going to be the same person five years from now that you are now except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. Jon has some tremendous books for you. You got to hear his wisdom. To everybody out there, if you like what you read, hit the like and subscribe button. If you do us the honor of a review, we would be tremendously blessed. Keep on paying the price of leadership. Have a tremendous rest of the day. Bye.
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About Jon Gordon
Jon Gordon is a husband, father, and author. His best-selling books and talks have inspired millions of readers and audiences around the world. He is the author of The timeless classic The Energy Bus, The Carpenter, Training Camp, The Power of Positive Leadership, The Power of a Positive Team, and his latest, The One Truth. When he’s not running through airports or speaking to businesses, hospitals, or schools, you can find him playing pickleball and taking long walks, which are when he gets most of his ideas. Jon believes in keeping his bio short because his past accomplishments are meaningless. What matters most is that he says something today that will inspire you to take action tomorrow.