Episode 173 - Dan Moore - Leaders On Leadership

Today’s guest has gone on the path to becoming a tremendous leader. Dan Moore, the Author of “Control, Influence, Accept (For Now): Coping with a Future No One Can Predict,” unpacks wisdom on how shaping your thoughts helps in becoming a tremendous leader. Learning to get excited about your work, talking yourself out of weariness, abandoning the idea that you can do everything, and setting your vision to become the best are the factors that make Dan a successful leader. He also touches on his book “Control, Influence, Accept (For Now).” Further in the conversation, we will also get a glimpse of Southwestern Company. Tune in to this episode with Dan Moore and be inspired by his leadership journey today.

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Dan Moore - Leaders On Leadership

I am tremendously excited to welcome my guest, Dan Moore. I want to tell you a little bit about Dan Moore. I have known Dan for decades. Dan has known the Joneses for even more decades. Dan has now retired as the President of the Southwestern Company, which has been building leaders out of young people for many years. For those of our readers out there who have been book boys or book girls, I was one of them, selling books door-to-door in between your summer breaks and colleges. You are going to love this. This is the man. He started with the company as a freshman at Harvard, and he never left. Dan, not many people get it right out the gate. I'm excited to hear all about it. Thank you for being here. Welcome, Dan.

It’s an honor to be here with you. As you said, your family means a great deal to me. This is a great privilege.

My dad loved the Book Kids. That's how I wanted it upselling. He would speak to your sales or conferences at whatever city. He'd host the Southwestern Kids. He and Gloria are at the house. You people out there, I know summer’s over but anytime a boy or girl knocks on your door, you be kind to them because they are out there learning some incredible things in life. As I understand, even with COVID now, Southwestern Company is bigger, stronger, and more profitable than it ever has been. Is that correct?

We certainly had a record year in 2022 and a very close year this year 2023, although it’s too early to call. I'm so grateful for the leadership that we have because it is all about leadership. You get through something like COVID, which for everyone was a huge issue. Many people lost family members and lost loved ones. For many businesses, it was a huge challenge. For our case, going door-to-door, what if we couldn't go door-to-door? That was a really important question, what you might call an existential crisis, but the leadership for our company came through in such a great way. I couldn't be more grateful for the young men and women who made it happen.

I can't wait to hear all about it. Let's get right into it. You knew my father and you knew the two things that he loved to talk about, in addition to God and Gloria, were motivation and leadership. His speech, the Price of Leadership, has been given thousands of times. In it, my father talks about four things that you are going to have to be committed to paying to truly be a leader and not just a leader in name only. The first of those is loneliness. We have all heard the saying, “It's lonely at the top. I used to have friends and then I got in leadership or management.” Can you unpack loneliness for us, maybe a time when you went through it? What counsel would you give to our audience?

I’m absolutely happy to do that. A little bit of background, my upbringing was in a small town in Northern New Mexico. A wonderful family, no real challenges to deal with, did well in school and sports, and was popular. When I got into Harvard, it was a different story. I felt as if I couldn't compete, which I could actually compete but I believed I couldn't. I developed a massive inferiority complex, which covered up some negative behaviors during my first year in college.

Southwestern Advantage came along, and a guy named Martin Fridson stopped his tray in front of mine in the dining hall and said, “Are you a freshman? I'm a senior. I want to chat a bit,” then introduced me to the program. I thought, “This is a chance for me to get back on the success trail.” I don't remember being homesick or lonely at all that first year in college, but once I got to San Antonio, Texas to sell books, your father is the one that got me through that first period of loneliness.

I was sitting on a street corner feeling sorry for myself because the night before, I'd been under the street lamp looking at my map. Some local guys came by drinking beer and throwing beer cans at me and thought it was funny. I sat there feeling sorry for myself, and I pulled out the book they gave us in sales school called Life is Tremendous.

Life is Tremendous

When your father wrote in that book, “The first Law of Leadership is learning to get excited about your work.” I remember thinking, “That's one thing, Charlie, but you got a really cool job. I'm sure. I'm a door-to-door salesman.” He said, “Not the job you wish you had. The job you have now. That's not the same as working because I know I work myself out into oblivion half a dozen times. It's getting excited about your work.”

There's a cartoon of a guy with a stack of paperwork on his desk this high. He was all excited. I jumped up at that moment. I said, “He's right. I have got to get excited about what I'm doing right now.” It's not being as lonely. Your father got me through that very first event. That was 1974. One of the most important things that I have upstairs in my library is his portrait that your father sent me about a month before he passed away.

He said, “My beloved Dan, Acts 20:24 Charles “Tremendous” Jones. Your father's counsel, advice, and guidance were essential to my younger times and getting through those lonely periods. One thing that I have been learning over the years is that each time we have an opportunity to move up, we don't get moved up before we are ready. We get moved up because people think we can do it. Even if you don't think you can do it, if we prepare ourselves along the way, we can be the effective leader that we want to be.

One of the things that your dad wrote about in the loneliness part is that at every level, you are going to be lonely if in fact you want to be a leader. By definition, the leader is ahead or stands out a little bit differently. Loneliness in the company is almost every different stage of this journey that we are all on. When he says, “The first price of leadership is loneliness,” I remember experiencing as a first-year leader, as a student leader, and as a sales manager going between campuses trying to talk to students about working with us.

Nobody wanted to work with me that summer. I remember crying and breaking down in front of my new wife. She said, “What are you so upset about?” I said, “I don’t think I can do that. I can't do this. I'm so lonely. I'm working so hard.” As a newlywed, she's the only one that got it, but the fact of the matter is loneliness means we are going to do something a little different. We are going to step away from other people, and hopefully lead in an effective way.

When I first became president of our company, it was a huge honor. The man that had it before me, you know well, Jerry Heffel. Jerry said to tell you hello as well. He and I spoke by phone. The very first thing I did was approach one of our top sales leaders. I said, “I sure need your help. I would love it if you take over the sales function.” He said, “Actually, I'm getting ready to resign.”

My very first blow was realizing, “This guy I thought I could partner with is not going to be part of the team now.” It was a real blow to my confidence, but that's when I realized this is what leaders do. It's okay to feel lonely. What we have to do at that moment is hug our mission so tightly and believe in it so strongly that the loneliness eventually dissipates to different levels. That's what's hit me about this issue of loneliness.

I don't know what to say, Dan. You are talking about how sometimes loneliness is self-imposed. When you went to Harvard the first year and then you think, “We are not good.” We have ostracized ourselves so that self-imposed loneliness, but then also talking about loneliness stepping out. What makes you a leader and not a follower is stepping out. I love that, hugging the mission. Charles would have loved that too as a big hugger.

Dad talked about that in Life is Tremendous. You are going to have some of your great years and next, you are going to have your worst year. The only thing we never talk about is productivity or getting back on track. Go back to your purpose and why. When you talk about hugging your mission, that's what always brings it back. Thank God you had a wife that didn't coddle you and tell you, “Come cry on my shoulder.” He talks about that too. He was like, “Gloria was like, ‘We have got kids. You have got to get back out there and get to work.’” He's like, “If you have a wife that says ‘Hey and clocks are ticking,’ be thankful.” I'm glad she was there for you to help be that sounding board for you.

Tell Jerry I said hi too. This is going way back. Thank you for sharing that Dad said that. He said that if you can't get excited about the job you are doing now, forget about the job you are going to have because it's easy to get excited about the things we like to do, but that doesn't happen that often in life. Most of the time, you are going to be doing things that you don't want to do, and if you can get excited about them, that's a secret to success. How many years were you with Southwestern before you took over as the President?

Let's see, I started in 1974. I became president in 2007, so whatever that would be. Quite a few years.

For our audience out there, timing. As you said, Dan, you will come into the spot when people think you are ready to come into the spot. I know some people want to get there, jump steps or jump the ladder, but sometimes it takes decades, and that's okay, just stay the course. That's phenomenal. I love it.

The next step my father talked about is weariness, and you have alluded to some of that. He's like, “You are going to be working with some people who are doing way more than they should, a lot that are doing way less than they should, and it's tiring.” A lot of people just tap out because I can't do it anymore. How do you deal with weariness and stay in your top form, Dan?

Most of it has to do with self-talk. In other words, we talk ourselves out of doing our very best much more often than we talk ourselves into doing our very best. I have learned over the years anytime I say, “I'm tired.” I need to put it in perspective and realize I'm really not. I got a nice home, air conditioning, and a fine car. There are people that have none of those things. They get up every day and do their job. They do the best they can for the family. They try everything they can to move forward. I'm really not that tired.

That's a breakthrough in the way we think about it ourselves. We can feel legitimately physically weary, emotionally and mentally. Sometimes even spiritually weary, but those are the times when the Lord said, “Lean into me. I will make sure I never forsake you. You will never be alone.” That weariness can go away because he said, “I will give you rest.” When we have that feeling in our hearts, we can breathe deeper. “One more demo, one more call, one more thing, one more memo, one more presentation.” We can do one more. Always we can do one more.

You talk about your faith, and I am aware of that. How do you dial that in? Do you start the morning with that? Do you do devotions? Do you Sabbath? How do you stay with the Creator who can give us the power that we need to do the things that we need to do?

I spent the first twenty years of my life not being aware of that at all. Not even knowing him. It was my fourth summer on the field that through the influence of the sales manager who shared his story with me that I finally realized this is what I need in my life and my eternity. At that moment, when I accepted Jesus into my life as my savior, things didn't become easier. I had my hardest year in the business ever after I made that decision.

As a young naive person, I thought, “Now that I'm a Christian, everything is going to be easy.” Wrong. He doubled down at that point. We know that for the first book of James, the trying of our faith makes patience, so we should count it all joy. I love the word joy. Every morning when I wake up, I have my first thought. It used to be my first thought was, “I wish I could sleep another hour.” My older brother passed away at 58. My baby sister passed away at 46. When my brother died, I woke up and said, “I'm now an orphan and an only child but I'm still here.”

The trying of our faith makes patience. We should count it all as joy.

Every day from that point until this point, my first thought of the morning is, “Thank you. I'm grateful I have got another day.” It's how I started my day, then I might say, “I wish I could sleep another hour.” Leaning into that thankfulness, gratitude, and sense of “I have got this opportunity. Let me use it as well as I can.” It's a big one. It helps overcome weariness too.

I love to use the word orphan. When I lost Gloria years ago, I didn't have children and both my parents were gone. I remember somebody telling me, “Now you are like an orphan.” I was like, “I can't believe you said that because now I can't get this out of my head.” That is what Christ said. He goes, “I'm going to leave you and you are going to be orphans but not for long because I'm going to send you the comforter and the advocate and the Holy Spirit.”

You lean into that, like you said, with your eternity. Now, I play my inheritance and I know I'm going to see my family on the other side and my brother Jerry who I lost. Otherwise, it is a little bit, when you finally hit that and go, “I'm alone,” then you are like, “No, you are not alone. That's what Satan wants you to think.” Thank you so much for sharing that. That tender memory. The next thing he talked about was abandonment. I'm a big pet rescue person so abandonment is a very bad word and fear of abandonment is a bad thing but Charles talked about abandonment in a sense of pruning and hyper-focus.

I can remember him telling me, “I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success. Every day, I have to abandon what I like and want to think about and do in favor of what I ought and need to.” You have touched on this before. I'm sure in your role so many new ideas and wonderful things. You are crafting the business for the future, so you always have to be open but you have to be very tightly focused on what your zone of gifting is and what you are calling is for the organization. How do you abandon all the stuff that you shouldn't stay focused on?

That's a difficult challenging question about which many books have been written, I'm sure. In my mind, the important thing is to realize that every single individual human being has limits. When we view ourselves as unlimited in our ability, we are not even telling the truth because we all have limits. We wouldn't have associates, colleagues, younger people, and people who want to move up and want to learn things, we limit them by having that belief. That sense, “I have got to do this. I'm the only one that can do this.” Even though that sounds contradictory the leader is only a person, the leader is always looking to the people around them and giving them opportunities to fail, chances to grow, and opportunities to fail.

Tremendous Leader: We're not even telling the truth when we view ourselves as unlimited in our ability because we all have limits. We wouldn't have associates, colleagues, and people who want to move up and learn things. We limit them by having that belief.

I had to abandon the sense that I had to do everything myself. I can remember when I hit that point. It was in the mid-'80s. I was trying to lead a team of people. Down the organization a bit. I was struggling with lots of things and I had this little plaque on my desk that said, “I will do it.” One of my alumni came in, he said, “That's a lot like my sign.” His sign was different. His sign said, “It can be done.” Now the difference between I will do it, which is very self-centered and it can be done is a huge difference.

I had to abandon the idea that I'm the only guy that has any brains. I'm the only guy who didn't get it done and give other people that chance to grow. As a leader, I suppose my main goal was always to help people have resources, which means listening ears and some guidance, but never trying to do their job for them. First of all, I wouldn't do it as well as they could do it. Every time I'd say, “This is what I want. That's how I want it done.” It was a huge mistake.

Instead, I said, “This is what I want done. How do you think you could do it?” They come up with the most brilliant, amazing, clever, and creative ideas in the universe. Abandonment to me was abandoning the idea that I'm some wonder boy. I'm going to get it done. It couldn't be farther from the truth. That was a big lesson and hopefully, I have been able to continue that throughout the whole course of my career.

Have you ever heard the poem The Indispensable Man?

I don't think I have.

I came across it. It came out many years ago The Indispensable Man. Every time I bring it up, people are like, “I have heard it.” Very much the same thing. It's all about keeping your ego in check because we do the best we can but do you know what? If you are gone, the world will continue spinning on its access. Do the best you can and it's about pouring into the lives of others. It's a very poignant thing that helps you remember and keep it.

Your comments reminded me of my favorite patent quote, “Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.” I love what you talked about there, allowing them to bring the creative stuff and it can be none. Not all do it because that's how we do this. That's how we burn ourselves out. Nobody likes working for somebody if the boss is going to do everything.

Not only that. It causes people to lose their hope that they have a future here. It’s giving that chance to grow is so important.

Thank you for that. The last thing my father talked about was vision and growing up with all these visionaries. I was always like, “They have different blood coursing through their veins or they are wired differently.” He's like, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done. There's this visualization or attraction then doing it, the action piece.” I'm like, “I can do that.” It was always very encouraging to me. What does vision look like for you? How do you continually look to the future for the best possible version of what you and your enterprise can be?

To me, vision is often mistaken for financial goals. People would say, “This is our five-year vision to be an X million-dollar company or to be this size company.” Maybe that's a financial goal. It's not a vision. A vision is a state of future affairs that we'd like to be able to see and all the financial dimension is an important part of that. There's the people's illness so much more important. Years ago, sometime before I was born, the company developed a motto, “Building character and young people since 1868.”

Often, we mistake vision for financial goals. A vision is a state of future affairs that we'd like to see.

That's where I grew up under. That was a powerful mission statement. An important one. We found over the years students would become maybe a little more cynical, and a little bit more influenced by outside people. They said, “What's this character stuff all about anyway? I don't need character. I need a good resume.” We modified it and we decided that the whole key is can we be the best organization in the world? Not the biggest. Not the largest. Not even the fastest-growing.

It can be the best organization in the world at helping young people develop the skills and the character they need to achieve their goals in life. That vision has always been the core at least as long as I have been in leadership at the company. To me, vision means seeing something big, is your dad talked about SIBKIS, See It Big Keep It Simple. The keep it simple part was we'd always ask the question after we make some big decision or in the process make a big decision.

Is it going to help our young people achieve their goals in life or is it something we think is a shiny good idea? It won't help them achieve their goals in life. It doesn't fit our mission. If we don't fit our mission, our vision is never going to happen. The vision of being the best organization in the world is a tough one because there are some amazing organizations out there helping young people.

We are going to keep working, keep striving, and the team that's there after me. It's the best people we have ever had in the world. The new president of the company is a young man you know very well, named Dave Koser. Dave is somebody who's been in the business longer than I have been. What a blessing it was when he stepped up that leadership and said, “Yes, I will take that role.”

Thank you for sharing that on vision and I love that. It keeps you purpose-oriented in everything. Is it going to help our young people achieve their goals? I wrote that down because I'm on several college boards and stuff and that's a great thing to say. I know it may look good from our level, but if you are not helping the young people achieve their goals, that's a great qualifier.

That's a litmus test for any decision that you make if you are working with any organization like that.

The raising the future leaders. We did loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. I want to open it up now because you have laid some incredible truths and wisdom on us. Thank you so much. I got about a page and a half a note scribbled down. What else do you have going on? You have a new book coming out and I'd like to talk about your book. I'd like you to share with our readers about the Southwestern Company in case they want to get involved or anybody out there reading or has kids grandkids or great-grandkids. What's next for you now that you have retired? What does the next chapter look like for Dan? First of all, could you tell us about your new book coming out?

Happy to do that. The idea of a book is something that probably a lot of people think about over the course of their lives and somebody says, “You ought to write a book.” I got serious about it years ago. I remember what happened. The presentation I developed over the years for students primarily on how to prepare for a future that nobody can predict. What it had to do with is the rate of change so incredibly fast. Many students would start a subject as a freshman in college.

Control, Influence, Accept (For Now): Coping with a Future No One Can Predict

By the time they are senior, it's already obsolete. This rate of change created all kinds of scare and uncertainty. What am I going to do for a living someday? Everything's changing so fast. What hits me all the time is it's internal qualities to get us through anything. It's true in your background in the military as the internal qualities that get people through in business. The internal decision that keeps a marriage together. The internal factors to keep a family growing.

To me, the internal part was can I become more self-aware? Can become more effective in dealing with people? Can I be more resilient and be more emotionally flexible? I began to give this presentation on campuses. Students always enjoyed it. Occasionally, they’d invite their parents to come. At the University of Colorado Boulder, I gave a presentation. I still remember the evening. We were in the environmental science building and a young man came and said, “I want to meet my dad. My Dad's here.” The dad walked up, shook my hand, and said, “Have you written this into a book?” I said, “No.”

He didn't smile at all. He said, “You should,” and he walked out. That's planted the idea in my head. The next year, I said, “I will start writing it,” and I thought, “This can be easy.” Two years later, I have only written two pages. A colleague challenged me and said, “Dan, I want you to finish that book this year.” Maria and I went to her home. She grew up in the beautiful Azores Islands which are part of Portugal, in the middle of the Atlantic. We took a long break and I remembered taking out my laptop, sitting in a coffee shop, and started writing 80% of it.

The whole key to that is understanding that if we can develop these internal skills and internal characteristics, we are going to be better off in life. The name of the book deals very much with something we all learned when we started selling books. Do you remember the phrase control which you can control and don't worry about the results? I want to sell books so that we can control certain things. Control our effort and the number of demonstrations we make.

We can control only a few things truly in our lives. Even our attitude. We always think, “I can control my attitude.” If you can do that, you are a better person than I am because I have learned over the years things can throw me off my stride, left field, a curve ball comes in and knocks me in the head. We can influence our attitude. We can certainly influence other people. Most of the things that happen in the world are things that we can either control or influence.

As I looked at people hitting their heads against that wall over and over, it occurred to me if they'd spend some of that emotional energy maybe on some things they could control and more on things they could influence. The things they need to accept for now, put them on the side. That's the title of the book, Control, Influence, Accept (For Now): Coping with a Future No One Can Predict.

I’m very excited about it. I had tremendous feedback from various editors, advanced readers, and people who said, “This would be better, do this and this.” It’s a collaborative effort there. The book is due out on October 31st, 2023. It is available for pre-order through Amazon and Barnes & Noble. I'm mostly excited because of some young people. I regard young people as anybody on this side of the Earth, by the way. I still think I'm a young person. It can continue to grow throughout our lives. Whatever those lives mean. This can be worth it to us. That's what the book is all about.

That's so important. I love that and that's what Southwestern taught me. It's about processes and habits. People have these wild outcome goals. Outcome goals of the hardest because there's so much beyond your control but the procedures and the processes, how many doors you knock on, how well you prepare, and all that stuff. That's the stuff that I can control. If you follow that then success. You will hit you will hit the outcome goals.

Very important because people are losing that. A lot of the divisiveness is, “They got it at the cost of you.” It's like, experience and opportunity are equitable but you are bringing these truths out there. These are immutable truths for people to understand. Charles will always say, “Nothing works unless you are working.” Teach them how to work in a manner that brings the goals that they are looking for. I can't wait. Very exciting. We will put the links out there for that too.

Thank you for that.

Now, talk about Southwestern Company.

I’m grateful that Marty Fridson and my student manager took the time to seek me out in the dining hall. A little bit of background again. At Harvard, the dining halls were closed for the freshmen on weekends. The weekends when we ate in the upper-class dining halls. Most freshmen did not feel very welcome by these upperclassmen. When Marty came across this tray and said, “You are freshmen. Mind if I join you?” I learned later that was his style of prospecting for team members that he wanted to have but there was something about Marty that hit me as unusual and a bit different.

As he told me about the program, I realized, “This could be something great for me.” The problem was, I didn't know how to sell. I talked about it and thought it was the dumbest thing that ever heard. Some of them said, “If you do that, you are a bigger idiot than I think you are.” I decided not to go but Marty was pleasantly persistent. Invited me over to the meeting and I met a man named Jim Calder. Jim became my district sales leader.

Less than ten minutes into the meeting, I knew that Jim had something I needed in my life. I met another young leader named Sam Wee. Sam became one of my most important friends and mentor my entire lifetime. That's the essence of the Southwestern program. Although, the product line has changed over the years. When the company started back in the 1850s, it was entirely a Bible publisher. Now while those do sell some Bible-related products, they are only about 3% or 4% of total sales. Everything else is educational products for famous kids.

The product line can change. We are very automated now. We have brilliant apps and brilliant websites that people can subscribe to continue to great educational input for their kids. The best books we have ever had in our history are in the line now. The essence of the program is still about a young person becoming everything they can be with mentorship, guidance, and stripping away all their background and experiences, their social media, and their image. It’s just me face-to-face with a person at their home. It's the most elemental form of communication and developing ourselves.

That program continues in a big way this year, last year, and every year in the future. Over the years, we have had many students from around the world participate. About half the students who have participated now come at their own expense from Europe to be here in the summertime and do this. It's just been tremendously gratifying to see the company change, adapt and grow while standing true to that whole mission. It's an amazing thing.

People can reach out even to host a student to come over to sell, correct for the summer?

Almost everybody stays with a host family in the summertime.

For the readers out there, if your kids are grown or already out on their own. Now, do all college campuses have this?

All college campuses could have but we don't have every presence. We are not present in every school. There are about three 3,000 colleges in the US alone. Not going to be at all of those schools because of online access. We get many applications from people all over the country. As colleges may not currently have a presence. When that student gets started, they can then build their presence.

That's the thing about it. They start you out then the next year you bring your team. As I said, you don't stay in your hometown. You go to a different area. If you are like, “My college doesn't have it for the kids.” Still check out Southwestern because you will go to a different area that does have a presence and a force, correct? Is that still the way it works?

That's right. The name of the company is now Southwestern Advantage. The reason for that is Southwestern itself is diversified into many different companies. It’s now called the Southwestern Family of Companies. Southwestern Advantage is the name of the student program to convey beautifully, what it's about, it gives students an advantage throughout the rest of their lives. The families that buy the products have an advantage for their families as well. SouthwesternAdvantage.com is where people can find out more about the program.

Everywhere I go, every book I publish including my one coming out, I always talk about Southwestern because Dad told me, “If you can go out there and cold call and not going to door and make a connection with somebody who goes, ‘That's one of the hardest things in life you are going to have or have to do.’ If you learn how to do that early on.” I'm like, “Good. Let's get that hard stuff out of the way.”

I remember like you said that mano to mano that one-on-one how to connect with somebody and stay persistent when you are getting door slam. I was so thankful that when I went into the military after Southwestern, people were like, “Aren't you scared or getting yelled at by the general?” I'm like, “I sold bookstore to door. I'm tough. They I got nothing on me. I can sell on heat and get chased by dogs and turkeys. You don't even worry about me. I got this.” What's next? You retired from Southwestern, what's next for you?

I’m still very active with the company in certain ways as an advisor and consultant. One of the companies we started in the UK in the year 2002 is called SBR Consulting. It's a sales enablement consulting company. I'm still involved with them. I have a training program coming up in New York, where I will deliver training to some clients. I hope to stay involved with that company as long as they will have me. They are doing tremendous work helping the corporate world develop many of the same principles, skills, and attitudes young people develop in this program.

We have also got another coaching company based here in Nashville called Southwestern Consulting. It says SBR Consulting is based in the UK. It used to be part of Europe. They got a big office in Prague in the Southwestern Consulting here. I try to give them advice and help whenever they seek it out. They are doing fantastic things. I'm no longer on the board of directors, but I'm very interested in what happens with our company. Henry Bedford, our CEO and Chairman, is a brilliant leader and close touch.

As much as I can support the students, I will continue to do that. In retirement, the whole goal for me and Maria is to focus, first of all, on our personal wellness physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally because again, my family didn't live very long. My siblings did not practice good health habits. As long as God has blessed me with a decent brain, I have an obligation to stay healthy enough to use it to try to help some people along the way.

We are prioritizing that. My wife is a yoga instructor. Yoga has helped both of us from a spiritual development level as well as a physical development level. Learning how to let go and let God is such an important aspect of all of that. Keep that going and keep my running going. My daughter talked me into doing my 25th half marathon. That's going to keep rolling as well. We are doing a different kind of travel. We’ll slow down a little bit and get more involved in the culture of a place. I plan to continue that. With any success at all with the book, hopefully, the message will continue to spread and grow as I have a chance to travel, speak, and share these ideas with people. In the meantime, I'm going to grow into every day, live into it, see what happens, and do the best we can to be responsive to what God wants us to do next.

I love that. For our readers out there, you can reach out to him or if you have a sales team, you have heard the wisdom that he has to offer in his years of experience. If you can motivate college kids to change their life, he can help motivate your sales team. I will make sure that gets out there. Dan, thank you so much for reaching out. You have always been a constant presence. You guys still support me. You buy our books, my books and Life is Tremendous. I'm so thankful that you keep doing and raising the bar on helping young people and for what you’ve meant to my father and to me over the years that I have been back.

I want to thank you for that. I wanted to share thoughts with everybody, first of all. Your dad had so many characteristics that were incredibly moving and powerful. You can distill a lot of his words in a couple of key lessons. One is the importance of humor. He used humor not only with people and groups, but in his own life. His ability to laugh at himself and laugh at his own troubles and his own mistakes and weaknesses was legendary.

It made all the rest of us feel like we could do something as well. He had a unique style of humor as you well know. I got to tell you about the very first time I met him in person. I'd read his book many times and they said, “Charlie Jones is coming to town. I’m going to have him speaking sales school.” I was so excited. I went to shake his hand. He gave me his big bear hug. Hugging me. Your father's a big man. He was probably 6’3” and hugging me, squeezing the life out of me.

I did what anybody did, I hugged him back. He whispered on my ear and said, “Don't hug back. Act like you are trying to get away. People are beginning to talk.” It was that tremendous sense of humor and that ability to help people just feel good about themselves. He was talking to one of my colleagues one time and he's like, “Charlie, let's get together for breakfast.” Charles said, “Okay. 8:00.” He said “Yes. If I'm not there, it means the rapture came and you weren't saved.”

The other thing he said to me about door-to-door before I went out my first summer in Princeton Bluefield West Virginia right on the border there, he said, “Tracey, if you see they are going to shut the door, put your head through the door, not your foot, because that way, when they go to slam the door, you can keep talking.” I'm telling you, when I would see they’re coming back, rather than cry, which happened from time to time, I would bust out a laugh and think about Dad saying, “No, just keep talking.” He did have a sense of humor.

He also had a tremendous love for music. He spoke about music therapy forgetting the difficult times in our lives. At the farm, outside Harrisburg, he had an entire little house dedicated to music, an old player piano, every kind of instrument under the sun. It didn't matter if you could play it or not. He said, “Pick this up and blow into it. Let's sing together. Let's sing some hymns.” He was amazing with the power of music. It can change our spirit and change our direction. It can move us in great ways. It's also been said that whenever we sing, we pray twice. God was the inventor of music. The best songwriter that ever lived was King David. When we sing, we pray twice. Your father was big in sharing that with all the rest of us.

The power of music can change our spirit and direction. It can move us in great ways.

Probably the third thing that I want everybody to remember about your father is that he was an imperfect human being, but he was a perfect example of being a human being. Imperfect because everybody's imperfect, but he was a perfect example of that. He inspired and developed so many people. He's a huge impact of my life and my son, Daniel. He and Charlie connected when Daniel was eight years old.

He mentored Daniel, tutored him, and helped him learn some things. Daniel rewrote Life is Tremendous for a younger reader and sent a copy to your dad. Your dad said the most glowing note. He sent him a $50 check out of nowhere. A cool connection that they had. Thank you, Tracey, for continuing that on, and Charles Tremendous, I know you are there.

Thank you so much. Dan, I can't thank you enough. My soul is full. I'm encouraged. You taught me so many wonderful things, and I'm excited for the book to come out. I'm excited we reconnected at this stage. Keep on doing what you are doing.

You do the same.

I sure will. To our audience out there, thank you so much for the honor of taking time out of your schedule to tune into the show. Please be sure to check the links, reach out to Dan, and stay in touch with him. Be sure and pick up his book. If you don't have a copy of Life is Tremendous, make sure you get a copy of that too.

We would love it if you would hit the like and subscribe button, and the honor of a review to share with other leaders who are going through how this message has blessed you. That would be absolutely tremendous. To all our readers out there, remember you will be the same person years from now that you are today except for two things: the people you meet and the books you read, so make them both tremendous. Have a tremendous rest of the day, everyone. Thanks again. Bye-bye.

Important Links

• Dan Moore

• Southwestern Company

• Southwestern Advantage

• Life is Tremendous

• Control, Influence, Accept (For Now): Coping with a Future No One Can Predict

• SBR Consulting

• Southwestern Consulting

About Dan Moore

Dan Moore recently retired as President of the Southwestern Company, which has been building leaders out of young people for 150 years. He started with the company as a freshman at Harvard and never left!

Episode 172 - Lisa Michener - Leaders On Leadership

Leadership is often seen as a rapid journey towards perfection. However, the most effective and influential leaders know that being present and embracing their entire selves – including their flaws – is the way to go. In this episode, Dr. Tracey Jones chats with Lisa Michener, a chief communications and marketing officer for more than a decade. Lisa talks about embracing moments of loneliness as growth opportunities and why having downtime should never be seen as a sign of weakness. She also shares the role of her mother in shaping her personal vision, the importance of humility in leadership, and the power of saying no in building a more fulfilled version of yourself.

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Watch the episode here

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Lisa Michener - Leaders on Leadership

I have an incredibly special guest. Her name is Lisa Michener. Welcome. I want to tell you a little bit about this fabulous one you’re about to read. She is the Chief Communications and Marketing Officer at a large financial planning firm and has been there for many years. Lisa is a lover of all things food, an avid horror movie fan, and a stand-up comedy enthusiast. She loves to travel. She adores her four rescue kitties at home, and you cannot pry her off the dance floor if you try. I love it. I didn’t know about you. That’s awesome. We must connect in person. She also loves spending time with family and friends, which is their most valued venture of all these. She tries to embody an attitude of gratitude every single day. Lisa, thank you for the honor of getting to share with my readers.

Thank you so much for having me. The honor is mine.

You’re welcome. I like to tell people how we connected because, as my father said, you’re going to be the same person five years from now except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. Lisa and I connected at the beginning of July 2023. I’m on the American College of Financial Services, their veteran board. I’m also an adjunct professor for their CLF or Chartered Leadership Fellow program. Lisa signed up to take the CLF because she wanted to hone her leadership chops. I talked to her about the show and she graciously agreed to come on. I couldn’t be more excited.

I am excited for this. At first, when you mentioned it I thought, “Maybe I want to do that. I wonder if she was serious and wanted a guest from our class.” I asked and here I am. I love it.

Readers, Lisa said yes. That’s one of the things that leaders do. You’re going to get a lot of opportunities out there. I’ve had great people like teachers, and people say, “I don’t know if I have anything to offer,” and I’m like, “You have so much to offer.” I’m excited to know your perspective because we have a lot of different people on here. My father loved the industry that you were in. He retired from it. My husband is retired from it. The financial planning industry is fabulous because it enables people to live out and play for their dreams.

My dad talked about the price of leadership. Leadership and motivation are the two things he spoke about the most, and he has a book in one of our little Life-Changing Classics’ called The Price of Leadership. In it, he talked about four things that every person who is truly a leader, not just a leader in name only, is going to have to pay. The first of those is loneliness. That’s not a thing we like to hear. It’s lonely at the top or heavy is the head that wears the crown. Can you share a time in your life where you perhaps went through a season of loneliness, what you did about it, and some words of counsel that you might give to our readers?

It’s funny how timing in the universe and everything aligns sometimes. The past years have probably been the most I have spent alone in this sense of just me and kids in that capacity, transcending that from a personal standpoint to a business standpoint, and a lot of things feedback to relational when you are in a business that is very fast-paced and things can go quick.

From a loneliness perspective, it can be both. It can be positive self-imposed loneliness to where you’re forced to be alone with these thoughts, visions, exciting ideas, and things like that. It’s not always from a negative standpoint. We hear the word loneliness and have this negative connotation to where it’s not okay to be by yourself sometimes and it’s not okay to explore things that you enjoy things, relax, and find beauty with.

From a personal standpoint, I’ve had a lot of loneliness but from a positive perspective that was forced upon me. I didn’t choose to walk into it first, and it’s been one of the greatest blessings. From a business standpoint, it is also getting to explore a little bit more in this leadership category and a little bit more of the possibilities because, a lot of times, we feel that we are in this box where we don’t have anywhere to go once we either level up in a position or do what we can. That’s not always true in many positions.

I know a lot of places where there isn’t a lot of room for growth or there’s lateral movement and things, but from an internal perspective, I feel like loneliness at times can push us to that next level. Even speaking about this opportunity, on this show with you, I didn’t know if I could do it or I couldn’t do it. Until you push yourself a little bit out of those boxes and of what you can and can’t do, that’s where that growth, beauty, and magic start to happen.

Loneliness can push you to the next level. It brings you out a bit of your box and shows you what you can and cannot do. That’s where the magic of growth happens.

I feel like loneliness is given a bad rep in some ways. In reading those four headlines, that’s what I thought in your father’s book before I delved into it. I thought, “These are some negative items,” until I stopped and thought about it. I was like, “I am learning so much from personal loneliness in such a positive way that I don’t think that that’s talked about enough. I don’t think it’s setting up on how much we have within us.”

There are many beautiful wonderful people around us and nobody ever takes their place, whether it’s friends, family, or people you meet anywhere, but from the standpoint of loneliness and getting to be alone with yourself is so much. There is so much beauty in that as well, growth, and translating that into your business and your every day because a lot of it isn’t based on your ideas for black-and-white metrics and things like that. It’s also the people around you, how you come better, and looking for betterment and growth. That is how people are going to receive you and it goes from there.

Readers, if you’re in a season of loneliness, Lisa said it is so beautiful, “If you’re lonely, you’re doing something wrong.” Maybe you’re going to be one of those one in a million people who always has the right people around you your whole life, “Mary is the right person and has perfect kids and bosses,” then there’s the rest of us. We’ve talked about that. What are you going to have to do?

I have a friend going through a personal life. She’s like, “I don’t know how I’ll handle being alone.” I’m like, “Having been alone for many years, it is a time of beauty, where you can get to know yourself.” You’re in CLF and you’re talking with other leaders. We unpacked some pretty heavy things. There’s always somebody else going through it to help let you know you’re not alone. As you said, it’s the chance you get to work on yourself and say, “With all that noise going on, otherwise, it’s such busyness.” That’s not the good side effect of what we need to get to our purest voice.

A lot of times, we don’t choose to walk ourselves into that season of our life. You believe in God, whether it’s the universe or whatever. As I have needed a couple of times in the past couple of years, you need to pick up, shake off, turn around, spin around, and drop back down a little bit peace and a little bit of a bumpy landing to start to unravel those internal thoughts that can lead to such.

In saying yes to this show, loneliness also means you were the one who stood out and said yes. Technically, you’re lonely because, of all the people that got asked, and I asked a lot of different people, loneliness is sometimes you may be the only one that says, “I’ll do it. I’ll volunteer to do it.” It’s something about a mass to stick together. I call it Mount Majority. Let’s say Mount Majority, everything is good here, but you step out and you may be the only one. You may be alone, but that’s different than negative loneliness because somebody’s got to step up and say yes, and you did.

Thank you for asking me. That’s one of the things your dad touched on saying in the committee. He referred to it as the committee. I like everything to be a double-edged sword. In my life, I always say, “Choose your heart. There are pros and cons to everything in that nature.” You also sometimes need to step out of that. Step back into it in a positive manner. It is a way of leadership and teaching people how you want to be treated from a personal. You’re setting the top for yourself and those around you.

Being Present: If you want people around you to commit, you need to step out and back into leadership in a positive manner. Teach people how you want to be treated from a personal level.

You said it. It’s a season. You may step into it. The goal is a leader is if you’re going through it, you shouldn’t be there for long unless you have a hard lesson. As I always say, “God let you there because it’s a purity problem or an immaturity problem.” You’re sharp as an iron. If you go through a season of it, it will be for a time to you get that clarity, brush off, look in the mirror, and say, “This is what I want,” but then you come out of it.

All these things he talks about are not forever. It’s the valley. The valley means that, eventually, there’s a bottom and then you start eventually coming back up again. I like that you said to step in and out of it because you’re going to have it throughout your whole life. As you get older, you get a lot more depth at it. You honestly look forward to it because you know this is going to be a time of refinement and reflection, and it’s a good thing.

That is powerful because it’s true. The universe puts quite a bit on you leading you to these points and these things to work through, but choose a little bit of challenge and challenge yourself within. It is like choosing to walk through the eye of the storm and to grow through it as opposed to damaging these windstorms and tumbleweed, circling back to it later, taking that head on, and embracing that growth as it comes. Your skin gets a little thicker.

Being Present: Choose to walk through the eye of the storm to grow through it. Taking the challenges head-on will make your skin a little thicker.

Charles says that you get a thick skin and a soft heart rather than a thin skin and a hard heart. That’s what loneliness is. Loneliness can be your friend. It can teach you a lot because bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. The sooner you can go, “It is what it is. I’m going to embrace it,” something positive is going to come out in us. We defined that season of loneliness to be probably one of the greatest times of growth we’ve ever had.

That’s the season I’m in. That’s why I am embracing these new challenges, leadership options, and things like that. Thank you.

When I went back for PhD many years ago, I was burned out and done with everything and feeling untremendous. I thought, “I’m going to go back and go to school.” Sometimes if you’re in a season of loneliness, that’s the best time to do it because you’re tired. I was burnt out on doing stuff. My health, relationships, and finances were in tatters. I thought, “I’m going to go study.” I got my mind in a space of growth, “Everything else I touched was turning to crap. Let’s at least stay.” If you’re in a season of loneliness, learning can pull you out of it because as I was recharging my mind, all of a sudden, my emotions and my behaviors started aligning. That’s what pulled out in all areas of my life. I went through a four-year evolution process. It was because of the learning process that I started.

I try to envision seeing a lot of myself from you and pulling from your opportunity, growth, and things like that of, “Why not me be able to do this now? Why not me from a business standpoint? Why not me from a personal standpoint?” A lot of us have this self-imposed negative self-talk. That’s where we stay stagnant. That’s why we don’t allow ourselves and everybody around us. Nobody has as many negative things to say as we think. That’s an internal voice. We think that everybody’s like, “She can’t do it. Why are you even doing it?” It’s ourselves and helping people to help us.

We talked about loneliness. That was a beautiful discussion. Thank you so much for that. You talked about weariness. You’re juggling a lot. I’m juggling a lot. We’re managing all the different aspects of our life. You have family, friends, a career, and rescue kitties. We have our spiritual life, personal life, and financial life. How do you stay in top form with all the demands going on?

I’m a big advocate for mental health, and I still think nowadays that we don’t put anywhere near emphasis on that as a society, community, and human beings and understanding that everybody is going through something every single day. All of our stories look different. I don’t have any human children, a spouse, or things like that to worry about. There are many people who juggle children, families, careers, and everything. They are exhausted. I cannot imagine what they go through each and every day. I always say, “I’m tired girl. I like to nap, rest, and recharge.”

My mom always taught me, “Listen to your body. Rest when you need to rest.” That’s a common misconception when we feel weary that we either lay down and die, or we have to push through and be this warrior and Spartan. There isn’t in between. There is a rest for your body, mind, and soul. I do think that rest, mental health, and things like that are not spoken about or putting a positive light enough because we’re programmed, “You can do it. Push through it. Everybody else has done it. Everybody else can do it with even more on their plate. Why can’t you?”

That scene behind everybody going through something behind their eyes every single day and knowing it’s all different is something that brings us back to unite us as well because everybody’s story is different, but everybody needs to break and rest. That weariness leaning into it a little bit, resting, and doing things is what’s needed. We’re going to talk about changing things from negative to positive, but it’s not a negative thing that we need some downtime. One of the things we talked about was different things that enthuse people, that are good goals, or help you to do your every day and do it better. One of those for me is traveling. I like to always have a trip on the books, a small trip, a long weekend, or something with the girls. It is anything like that is on the books to be that thing for me.

Everybody is going through something behind their eyes every single day. Everybody needs to take a break.

I’m going to trudge through to get to that trip, “I just need to get there in how many days.” I am filling that time and compartmentalizing what I can achieve within there and then rewarding myself. We had a coach at work and we still have him. One of the things that I love that he said was to not goal jump. “We’re going to reach these goals from a personal standpoint. We’re going to be tired and afraid. We’re going to do it anyway. When we get these, we’re going to celebrate them. We’re going to celebrate these goalposts. We’re not going to whiz by them because we are going to do, and we’re not going to stop to reach these goals before we get to this personal. This S-curve, we’re going to stop and acknowledge.”

That helps with the weariness, burnout, things that drag you down, and having something that makes you feel alive and having that on the books. If it’s going to get Chinese food and watch the sunset, which I do often, I’m going there, sitting, relaxing, watching the people, reading a book, going on a trip, doing something for yourself, a class that you’ve been putting off, or anything like that. It could be many things. I love to watch crime shows at night.

I love to eat have snacks and watch crime shows for hours at night. Some people say, “You could be reading a book. You could be doing this.” There is time for those things, but sometimes it is time for snacks, crime shows, and stand-up comedy. Some things put you in a better mood. It can be as low-key and as small as watching a TV show you like. It is stopping and realizing that you’re here, you get to be here, and you get to choose what you want to do to bring a smile to your face or the opposite of that. You need a good cry or moment of anger to be, sit with that, feel it, and experience it. Those all come back and weariness dragging us down the type of deal.

With mental health, what you’re describing is mindfulness and being very present, whether it be a vacation. There are times when, like you, I do the same thing because I can work 24/7. That’s the pace I run at. As leaders, you have to realize not everybody can do that. I got that from my dad. I got the genetic go-forever gene from my dad, but that’s not everybody. We still have to take time. I love that, and it was very purposeful. One of my courses was, “You have to Sabbath and stop always looking forward. Be pressing. Celebrate where you are,” and then I get to go, “Look how blessed I am.” There are 50 million things still up there. Otherwise, you never stop and get to enjoy what you’ve done. You’re always running to the next thing in the future you. That’s hard on your body.

That manifests everywhere like your mental health and when you don’t feel good. That comes from a physical standpoint.

It did for me. My adrenal gland was shot. I thought it was chronic fatigue, but it was, “I was it. I was done.” I had to sleep 23 hours a day instead of running 24 hours a day until my body said, “We’re not doing this anymore.” You have to be very mindful of that.

Time for a little rest.

Not all activity is a good activity, but it always depletes. You got to recharge. I love that you love to travel. Rescuing is a good thing for you.

I had 6 cats and 1 dog. I am down to four cats. We’re staying steady at that. We’re not getting more. They’re all elderly. My oldest one needs some dental work. Animals are pure joy. There was a lot of work that people skipped over, and they bring so much into this.

Being Present: Animals offer the purest joy.

Some people are like, “The work,” and I’m like, “Then don’t.” I’m like you. The high point of my day is anytime I go into my two little Aussie puppies, I unlock the crate, and they come flying out at me. I don’t care what a day it is. I love it.

People probably think I’m a nut if my neighbors can hear me because I walk through the door every single day. They’re always laying on the couch when I get home and I say, “Ladies and gentlemen, your mother’s home.”

Could you tell them how hard you work? That’s what I tell them. I’m like, “Mommy has to go bring home the bacon so you guys can live the life. You lay here. Let mommy take care of you.” That’s beautiful, and it gives us great joy. We help rescuers because that’s a worrisome job, going after animals and animals. It never ends, but it never stops. A lot of them do that with their own finances. People like us are, “Somebody has got to take them,” otherwise the whole system gets jammed up. I’m always like, “Somebody’s got to help alleviate the fosters and the rescue organization. Somebody has to help them. If you can help them, help them.”

They are at another level. It’s unreal.

Talking about animals, the next thing my dad talked about was abandonment, which in the animal kingdom and the rescue world is a big no-no. We’ve heard about that fear of abandonment, people who suffer from attachment issues, have been abandoned as a child, or had somebody divorce walk out on them, but that’s not the abandonment he was talking about. He was talking about the things that we need to abandon that we like and want to do in favor of what we ought and need to do.

I remember my dad. I’m like, “You’re successful. How did you get successful?” He’s like, “I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success.” I’m like, “How is that even possible?” He goes, “It’s being meticulous and honest with yourself. Yes, you have to have downtime, but be honest about, ‘Is this the best in my time? This book, partner, habit, or whatever.’” You can’t juggle everything because we’re not Wonder Woman. Something will drop or we’ll hurt and compromise ourselves physically. How do you stay finely tuned and focused on what you need to do to move your life forward?

One of the first things I’ve enacted over the last couple of years a little e bit more is simply saying no to some things. It sounds a little bit more forward-thinking feature because when you say no, it’s not because you don’t wish to do something with somebody and you don’t wish to spend the time. It could be an amazing event. It could be something like that, but you forward think a little bit yourself when that time comes. I always start to try to do this habit, “How am I going to feel when it comes time to do this event or this option?” It is because I’ve learned over the years that I say yes every single time, and when it comes time to do it, I am not joyful about doing it longer, whether that’s an event, a party, or it could even be something philanthropic.

You don’t have the capacity for every single thing you want to do. When that time comes, how am I going to feel? Am I going to feel excited three weeks from now at 6:00 on a Tuesday when I said yes to doing this, or am I going to think, “You should have thought about it a little harder a few weeks ago?” My pullback is to stop and think before I say yes because it’s something I probably will end up enjoying. Unfortunately, we can’t base everything on enjoyment and that type of deal. That’s been my great thoughts.

Being Present: Stop and think before you say yes to anything.

I’m getting better at that because there’s something about saying yes, “Could you take over this?” “Yes,” then I’m like, “What have I done?” I love that you said, “How am I going to feel when that happens?” Think about it. In the back of my mind, I was doing that, but I liked this because we were asked to do it. I tell people at least half the stuff I do is either volunteer, at least half, probably more philanthropic or something that’s not a “lever” to pull for the business.

In business, you’re going to say yes because you’re running your business. I like that, “How am I going to feel?” You catch people that say yes to something, and then they’re like, “What did I say yes to that?” They grouse. I tell people, “If you did say yes, you have to do it with joy.” Next time, don’t say yes because my friend Lisa said, “Ask yourself, ‘How am I going to feel?’” That’s a good one.

If we choose to, it’s not going to benefit or behoove us to be worn out. I’m not excited about the things we do want to do. I have a couple of friends who try to trick people and say, “What are you doing on this date at this time?” I’m like, “I’m not sure what I’m doing. What are you talking about?” Honestly, to lay it all out front, that’s how I am. I want to know the black-and-white of it first that it’s not always from a feeling standpoint because if I fast forward to several weeks from now and I think, “I’d rather be in a robe on my couch,” that’s okay. That’s enough of an answer for myself.

That’s great, and that will help you. Even partnering with somebody working with a particular author or a meeting planner, I already get a sense of how this is going to go and if it’s going to be a joy or if it’s going to be not so joyful. I like that. It is to say, “Is this going to be edifying for both of you? Is this going to be a real pain in the neck?”

There’s the opposite side of that coin as well. You’re not sure and your future self will thank you for that when you set yourself up for success in things like that. The term abandonment could be abandoning these things or it could be leaning into these other things. It depends on your perception of that because abandonment could be from a personal standpoint. It could be deep-rooted internally. There could be things that trigger people in this form of business standpoint from anything else, but also abandoning thoughts of these negative notions and these things that we always say yes, even if they’re positive. Abandonment can be fun to a positive life.

It is something you need to let go of to embrace the future. You can’t have two spouses. At least not in Pennsylvania. You can’t have two jobs. You can’t be double-minded or even have negative thoughts. I can’t have negative and positive thoughts in my mind at the same time. Pick a lane. I love that you talked about if you get to it, abandonment means, “No, we’re done with that.” You can for yourself up, be open, and talk about your future self thanking you.

It’s always tough because it’s a death. Even if it’s a bad friend, marriage, or job, you’re still ending something. That’s hard because there’s an element of failure, insecurity, or scariness, but to take that next step, you have to let go of what you were doing before. I asked people when I worked for one of them in the future. I go, “What are you going to change because what if this is still going on in a year?” “It won’t.” “What are you going to stop doing?” “I don’t know.” “You’re going to get the same thing in a year.” Abandonment, in that sense, like loneliness, is a pruning. It’s a cutting away of the dead, diseased, or dying. As we’re evolving, we always have to be looking at that and doing that.

I’m glad you touched on that with having too many things going on being by myself a lot more and being able to cultivate a lot of these ideas that I didn’t even know I had, to be very frank, taking notes in different things, ideas for businesses, and all the different things going through my head. Sometimes, I’m somebody who can’t have too many balls in the air. Sometimes I need to go ahead and establish this timeline and items and abandon these other items for a short time. Maybe I’ll come back to them. Because I can do several things well, I can’t do seventeen things well and keep that going.

Sometimes even as women, we are like, “We have to do it all.” Stop. Don’t play that martyr thing. Sometimes people do what they think because they like that. I’m like, “That’s not good.” If you’re going to do seventeen things, you are doing with joy, but it’s not feasible. You need to abandon some of those things like thinking you can do it all. For some people, that’s the joy of getting to tell everybody they’re doing everything, but I digress.

Back to the price of leadership, the last thing you talked about was vision. I can remember I sat growing up with the Ken Blanchards and Norman Vincent Peales. I’m like, “These guys are visionaries.” I was like, “I don’t think I’m a visionary.” My dad was always like, “You are. It’s just seeing what needs to be done and then doing it.” There was a very strategic but also a tactical aspect, and I’m like, “That I can do.” How do you hone your vision for what’s next in your life and these ideas that are coming up and how does that fit the Lisa of the next 5, 10, or 15 years?

I do a lot of thinking, reflecting, and things like that. My mom is such a strong woman that she is a fraction of the woman that she is in my entire life. She is beyond. I didn’t know that she was cultivating the seed inside me since I was very little of watching her, having strength, and being able to do what people don’t think you can do. She did it and she did it with grace. She never ever put her problems on other people. That’s one of the things that I make sure that I try not to let my own and not share with people, but it’s a matter of not letting your own learning, own negativity, and things spill onto others.

Do not let your negativity spill onto other people.

That was one of the things that she made sure even when hard things happened to her and a lot of hard things happened to her. It wasn’t anybody else’s fault. That’s such a strong foundation that starting out when I was younger, “You can do things in what you put your mind to. You can do these things.” As I got a little older, a lot of it was situational. I had a job, and the people around me said, “You can do this. Would you like to interview for this position?” or things like that. It is little things that build your confidence that you find out you can do as you go.

It’s crazy how I got into this position because I didn’t have the experience that I thought, “I was never going to get this position ever.” It was the wildest interview I’ve ever had because I’m like, “They’re going to ask me about all my previous experience. I’m going to have to tell them I don’t have any. It’s going to be a sad time. I’m going to walk out the door. It’s going to be hard, but I’m going to go through this all and learn from it,” but their questions are, “Are you loyal and adaptable? Can you move in a fast-paced environment? Can you move with grace? This is going to be hard. We have a lot of amazing clients.”

I’m thinking, “Yes,” but when we’re going to get to the questions that I’m going to have to say no to, they never got to those questions that I had to say no to. It was the most eye-opening experience. I never had any corporate experience before in that realm. I’m thinking, “This must be a one. This isn’t going to be the position that I thought. I’m only going to be very short time because I don’t even know what I’m doing.” In positive things I’ve said yes to and the people around me, my family’s strength and leadership are giving me goosebumps.

They are those who have believed in me and pushed me to that next level to help me push myself, so that vision comes from them, me, and from the circular movement of us bouncing these ideas, passions, and caring about each other as humans off of each other over and over every single day. My personal business leads into the business vision. That leads back to my personal vision and things that seemed far away, unattainable, and unachievable, but great things to talk about.

We’ve seen a business come to fruition, and we’re only a couple of steps off this feeling-less ladder. To see that and to see it be real from a personal standpoint has stopped and made me think, “Why not me?” There are many people and famous celebrities, all these interviews and things, “Why did you think you could do it?” They thought, “There are many people around me. Why not me? Why can’t I go?” I had that same negative self-talk, “Why would I be the one to go for it? Why would I push myself? Why would I be somebody who would be a leader or who would be in these positions and not somebody else who is more qualified or experienced?”

At the end of the day, they’re not you or me. We all bring such different things to the table. I was talking to a friend and I said, “You don’t even know. This has happened for eleven and a half years straight, and it happens to me every single day. Every morning, it’s like a roller coaster.” In the very early morning, I start to think, “How am I going to get everything done? How am I going to be able to have the knowledge and the experience? How am I going to conquer the tasks that I need to and the clients I need to speak with? What needs to happen? How am I going to do this?”

It moves into a little bit more negative. There are one million people who are more qualified and experienced than me, who worked for a Fortune 100 company, and who can do this. By mid-morning, I’m getting a little bit of a stride and I’m like, “I’m getting things done. I’m doing this.” By early afternoon, I’m like, “I am here.” By late afternoon, I’m like, “I’m where I’m supposed to be. They are as lucky to have me as I am to have them.” I leave with a side and the whole thing starts the next morning.

Some people say, “That’s not healthy.” I would tend to disagree because you need a level of leveling, a level of humility, and an understanding of how many amazing people there are. You can gather from just being in our class the people around me. There could be an interaction at the grocery store where you gather something from somebody that sticks with you. People are amazing and to think through, see the opportunity, and get to it as opposed to having something that has stuck with me over the years.

You get to do this every day. You get to try to be your best and show up for people. However, that turns out for the day, knowing that you did your best and showed up as your true and real self. That’s where I am in my life in this season. It is that authenticity that brings it home because there are people who are not going to from a personal standpoint, but they do from a business standpoint. You can go in and pick somebody apart in every way, shape, and form. I’m somebody who thrives on positive reinforcement.

If I see even a glimmer of something positive or something like, “I got that. Now I can get the next thing. I can at least try,” I start to get this little bit of wind beneath my wings to help put things up. It’s this constant whatever you want to call it, angel or demon. It is necessary because you got to know how great other people are, but you also have to believe in yourself and commend the people around you for helping build you into who you are.

Being Present: Commend the people around you for helping you build into who you are right now.

Thank you for being very authentic about that. My dad was always very clear about that. He’s like, “I’m a failure too.” It wasn’t a degradation. It was a humility. He knew there were many better speakers out there. There are many people that sold more books. I appreciate you saying that. It makes sure you never get to fully yourself and never content because you’re constantly on this, “Revert back. I’m strong enough. Tomorrow is another day.” People see the sun, sit back, and get stale, like, “What got you there won’t keep you there.” I love that you’re looking at that, but I love that you talked about the vision.

You are with people that you almost borrow their vision. Now that I’m teaching in the financial planning world, I know my dad loved it so much, and if I had to do it over again, although I had a great career, you cannot succeed if you’re chewing people up and getting rid of them. Not everybody is perfect. I’ve been around. I understand, but it seems like in the financial planning industry, they saw you and they realize that you may not see it, but they see it in you.

You were opening up to borrow their vision in you, and then there’s this symbiotic relationship. You got to have your vision. We talked about that in the CLF Program. You have your individual motivations, but then it’s tied to the organization. It is the fact that you for many years, every morning, get up and get energized about this. This is what everybody craves. This is what all those TikTok people say, “I quit after eleven and a half minutes.” This is what they’re looking for, maybe not and they just like making TikTok videos.

I don’t have TikTok. I’m not sure what you mean.

Everybody is like, “I quit.” My dad would say, “You can’t quit. You have done nothing yet.” You go in and you’re thankful. They’re like, “This isn’t for me.” I’m like, “You don’t even know. You have even tried.” You’re willing to look at vision as a shared enterprise and realize that vision is a shared thing. An organization can’t be 50 different visionaries all pull in different directions. That’s crazy, but you talked about them and what they saw in you and you were open to say yes. You drew from that. I also know why you scheduled our show for the late afternoon. I’m glad we didn’t talk in the morning. Usually, people sign up first thing in the morning. I’m always like, “That is funny that you said that.”

We blur the lines a little bit as we get a little older. You hear some of these younger kids, “I can’t do something I’m not passionate about.” Even I’m like, “What do you mean?”

There’s going to be a lot, “I don’t like paying taxes. I don’t like not eating sugar. I don’t like picking up dog poop.” There’s going to be a lot you’re going to have to do.

It’s got to be given in all forms of life and ways as you get older. From a personal standpoint, from a vision, I have big goals that I wish to achieve. I want to build my home. That’s been my ultimate goal for decades. I want to build a home for myself, and then I also come back to traveling and then doing things for more things for my family because it is what they’ve done for me growing up. Having an opportunity to do that is what pushes me. Having that within the grasp and being able to is beyond measure.

Your vision is tied to your why. You’re very clear, it’s got enough of them and emotional. It’s personal and it’s your why. When people would be like, “I don’t know if I can sell anymore,” my dad is like, “It’s not a productivity thing. You have to get back to your why.” It is as long as you’re always going back to that. That sense of gratitude always keeps you there. You’re there to choose success not just for yourself but for everybody else in everything you’re saying. I love it. We covered loneliness, weariness abandonment, and vision. Anything else that we have not touched on as far as leadership that you would like to share with our readers?

We’ve touched on a whole lot. I mentioned earlier that one of the big things that keep rearing its head in this season of life and a lot lately is everything being a trade-off. It’s not necessarily in relationships where everything is a trade-off and business things are a trade-off. It is understanding that sometimes we trade-in. Have you ever seen Jesus with the teddy bear? There is this girl with a little teddy bear. He’s telling her to give it up. He’s got a giant teddy behind his back, but she can’t see it. We all have that where we grip tightly the things that we think are good for us but aren’t meant for us, but we’re content enough that we want to hold on and we don’t want to see what’s behind his back when it could be great.

Everything is a trade-off in business and relationships.

We don’t know and it’s stepping into that unknown. That’s one of the things that I hope that more people will lean into and recognize the power within themselves to be with them a little bit, explore, and know how much they have inside of them that can be brought up and drawn out, whether it’s with the right people, scenario, or situation. We’re not always going to be in those, but realizing that there’s much more inside you than what you think. It can be brought out with the tiniest of things and you can cultivate that from your own self-worth, excitement, and things like that.

I love that you said that for readers, “The tiniest of things,” because some people are like, “It’s going to take too much work.” It has to be your book and I’ll publish it.

For this interview, I’ve been jotting down all these random things that come to mind. I give myself a chance to process or bring them out on myself previously. I thought, “I’m going to leave those aside. I’m going to have a conversation.” I’m thinking in my head, “What if I make those into a book? What if I did want to do something like that in the future?” This stuff comes to you when you don’t even consider it. It leaks out of you in the best of ways. If you could publish my book, I’d appreciate it so much. This is a very large thing.

Our connection was a phenomenal class, the connections that we had, and you learning and getting to read your papers, then get to know somebody when they write about what they’re going through. It is such a joy to watch. It’s impressive. Your mom must be so proud of you.

Thank you so much. It’s funny because she says, “You wanted to write a paper? In this many years, I’ve never seen you excited to write.”

Isn’t it beautiful? I almost flunked out of college twice. Now I’m like, “No, it’s different.” When you place where you want to learn, you’re excited, and you get your act together, “I am a radically different student than what I was before.” That’s the beauty of adult learning. You’ll want to learn.

When you’re able to choose a little bit more of where you’re spending on what subjects and work it into your everyday life, it’s magic.

What’s the best way for people to get in touch with you?

You’re welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn. You’re also welcome to send me an email.

You want to connect with tremendous Lisa, learn more about her, and have her in your network of people. Lisa, where are you located at?

I am near Cleveland Ohio, about half an hour-ish West of Cleveland. If anybody wants to chat and bounce some ideas, I would love to learn from you and gather some of those thoughts because I’m sure that everybody reading has so much to offer. I would be grateful to be able to speak with anybody.

Thank you so much. This has been at such a time of getting to know you more. We’re in between class breaks. You’re getting ready to start again. I’m blessed to have you in my life. I’m excited about what you shared and what’s next for you.

Thank you so much. I am as well. I’m grateful and excited.

To our readers, it is time for us to bid adieu. If you like what you read, please hit the subscribe button. How about sharing this with somebody who needs to read Lisa’s wonderful words of wisdom about what it takes to pay the price of leadership? If you would do us the honor of a review, we would be thankful too. Never forget, you’re going to be the same person five years now except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. As long as you keep doing that, you are going to be more than ready, willing, and able to pay the price of leadership. Thank you all so much for reading and have a tremendous rest of the day.

Important Links

• Lisa Michener

• The Price of Leadership

About Lisa Michener

Lisa Michener is the Chief Communications and Marketing Officer at a financial planning firm and has been there for 11 years. Lisa is a lover of all things food, an avid horror movie fan, a stand-up comedy enthusiast, loves to travel, adores her 4 rescue kitties at home, and you cannot pry her off of a dance floor if you try! Spending time with family and friends is her most valued venture of all these, and she tries to embody an attitude of gratitude every single day.

Episode 171 - Greg Leith - Leaders On Leadership

Nothing can beat living a well-lived life. That should be our mission in life. Today, Greg Leith, the CEO of Convene Corporation, is gracing us with his presence. Greg enlightens the path of what it takes for leaders to lead the ultimate kingdom. He shares how he navigates into the prices he had to pay being a leader to stack crowns and accelerate the kingdom. To stay focused on his calling, Greg recognizes the value of working because that’s what God wants us to do. So, let’s step into this episode and find the strength to be a great leader that will accelerate you to the kingdom.

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Watch the episode here

LISTEN TO THE PODCAST HERE

Greg Leith - Leaders On Leadership

In this episode, I’m very excited to introduce you to Greg Leith. Let me tell you about Greg. Greg’s life mission statement is to “strengthen great leaders and exponentially accelerate the kingdom.” He is the CEO of Convene Corporation where thousands of Christian CEOs connect around business excellence that is built on a biblical foundation. Before that, Greg was also a senior executive for twenty years with the ServiceMaster company, which is a multi-national $9 billion firm engaged in healthcare and education management, as well as franchising. He’s also a nonprofit leader where he serves as the Vice President of Arrow Leadership and Director of Leadership Development for the Christian Leadership Alliance. Greg, I am so excited to talk to you about the price of leadership.

Thanks for having me, Tracey. It’s an honor and you know how much I also was a raving fan of your dad’s. This is a treat for me.

Thank you. To our audience, I always like to share how we made this tremendous connection. I am in the Harrisburg area in Pennsylvania. Last November, I was at the Lancaster Prayer Breakfast, where I crossed past with the tremendous gentleman, Bud Handwerk, who then connected with me. Bud chairs one of the local groups here in our area of the Christian Convene. For our audience, those of you who are familiar with other mastermind groups like this stage, this is like that.

We’ll talk about how it’s different, but this is the Christian version of it. I’ve gotten the chance to get connected with the local groups in the area to speak to them, and then I got to meet Greg in person because Bud told me how much you love my father. Not long ago, when you came and did a regional event in the Lancaster Trust, I got to meet Greg in person. Greg, thank you so much for being here again.

It’s great to be with you. One of my stories that I told Bud Handwerk there in the Lancaster area, which by the way, it took me two years to get the audience in Lancaster to stop laughing when I said Lancaster. I remember walking into Lancaster Bible College one day into the library. I’m a raving fan of your dad. I’ve heard him speak many times. He’s giving me the signature Charlie “Tremendous” Jones hug. I walked into the library at Lancaster Bible College and I saw this life-sized portrait of your dad. It was very big. I said to Bud, "What the heck?" He said, "Tracey lives here." I said, "I'd love to meet her." This is great for me.

It is great. That’s where I got my PhD. Many of the audience out there know that. It’s at the Lancaster Bible College. I love that entity and all they do. They taught me all about leadership. Greg, thank you for sharing that. I'm so glad you got hugged multiple times by Charlie. I know you were a true leader and you would have paid the price of leadership if you had not got some of his bear hugs for sure.

I’m also thrilled to meet one of the little children when you were a little bit young girl in some of his stories of the car going back and forth in the snow in the driveway to go to church because “We’re going to go to church.” Of course, he knew you could never make it out of the driveway that snowy day and told you later, apparently, that he was making memories.

Did he ever? He would also tell us, “I always let you guys make your own decisions.” We’re like, “Seriously? Did you really say that?” He’s like, “They have engaged in a little spiritual meddling.” He always had an interesting way of saying different things. Greg, you have decades of leadership experience. One of Charlie’s most prolific speeches is he loved leadership but he was very pragmatic about it.

He said, “If you’re going to be a leader, there’s a price you’re going to have to pay.” The first price that he talked about was loneliness. We’ve all heard that "Heavy is the head that wears the crown and it’s lonely at the top.” Can you unpack what loneliness means for you as a leader? Perhaps, if you have been through a season of loneliness, something that you would share with our audience to help them as they navigate their way through it.

I feel like we could do about three episodes on this subject so I’ll be succinct or I will be here for three days. There are many times when, in my life, I was feeling lonely at the top. I remember Chuck Swindoll, my pastor here in California for quite a while, wrote an article called The Lonely Whine of the Top Dog. It is about moving away from the crowd, as your dad said. I remember a time when I was quite happy in my ServiceMaster corporate job. We were $5 billion or $6 billion at that time. I had started with ServiceMaster when we were $300 million. I was with the corporate side, healthcare management, suits, ties, corporate jets, and the whole nine yards. On the franchise side, these people cleaned carpets and drove yellow vans.

I thought, “I will never be one of those people,” and then I found out that there was a business in Vancouver, Canada for sale doing $40,000. I said to the guy who wanted to sell it, “$40,000? Is that a day, a week, or a month?” He said, “No. A year.” I went to the people doing what he did in Toronto, Canada, where I was living. I said, “How much do you do?” They said $7 million. I quickly bought the guy’s business in Vancouver but I was driving by myself in my little Audi 5000 from Toronto to Vancouver the entire time thinking, “I spent all the money I had. I don’t know why I’m going out there to clean carpets. This is ridiculous.” On the last day of my drive, I was super tired. I drove through the night. It was about 3:00 in the morning and I found a motel.

I pulled into the parking lot, turned off the car, and slept for two hours until I went to my first meeting with my new business in Vancouver, Canada. The entire drive, I can promise you, I was lonely. As I inherited the business, there was a guy who was mostly drunk. There was a drug addict. There was a broken-down vehicle. I fired everybody and started cleaning the carpet myself. Here I am, cleaning the carpet in the middle of the night at 2:00 in the morning with a Bible College degree and a Business degree, I left corporate with a suit. I said, “What am I doing? This is ridiculous.” I surely was lonely.

This will make you go, “What the heck is that?” but I’m encouraged by the contents of Abraham Lincoln’s pockets the night he was shot. The reason I’m encouraged by that is because what was in his pockets was normal stuff. He had a country boy’s pen knife. He had his spectacles tied together with a piece of twine, a handkerchief, a watch fob, and here’s the best part, eight articles in his pocket on why history would call him a great president. Lonely at the top.

That is fascinating. Have you ever read the poem? I cannot believe I have never heard this. If anybody says, “I can’t believe you have heard this,” I’m going to say, “Why didn’t you tell me earlier about it?” It’s called The Indispensable Man. Have you ever read that poem?

No.

You didn’t know either but it’s very much the same thing and it’s all about the allegory. The parable is when you leave an entity and you think you’ll be missed, “I can’t leave. I’m so good. I’m up here at this paradigm” kind of thing, put your hand in a bucket. Take your hand out of the bucket and look at the bucket. When you go, that’s how much people remember you. It’s not a mean thing but it’s all about listening. It keeps you humble no matter where you go. I love that story that you were up there and here you are in the middle of the night cleaning carpets. That is good for the soul to keep you focused on the peaks and the valleys of leadership. I appreciate you sharing that.

Take your hand out of the bucket, and look at the bucket when you go. That's how much people remember you.

You’re welcome.

The next thing he said is weariness I’m sure you were weary too. My dad would always tell me, “Tracey, so much of leadership is you’re going to have to be picking up the things that other people should be doing but they’re not doing and it’s tiring. We have this beautiful soul and eternal spirit but we’re still mere mortals.” How do you combat weariness as a leader?

I was encouraged. At one point in time in my career, I was a Youth for Christ board member in the Canadian Youth for Christ for the country. I had the privilege of hearing a talk by Torrey Johnson. He was one of the early Youth for Christ people before Billy Graham and during the Billy Graham era as well. Torrey did a talk one time. He was one of the most powerful preachers. He did this talk where he was basically in the genre of your dad. He was talking about when you’re tired. He said, “When you do work, you get tired and you get so tired sometimes. Sometimes, when I’m so tired, I go back to the hotel room and lie on the bed. I’m too tired to take my clothes off and I fall asleep on the bed and wake up at 2:00 in the morning.”

That is encouraging to me. What God is not for is for us to have three vacation homes and golf after we sell the company for $100 million while we're doing absolutely nothing for the kingdom. We might be excessive in our purchasing habits. There's nothing wrong with great cars but you probably don't need 5 or 6. There's nothing wrong with great houses but you probably don't need 4 or 5. I'd rather be tired of the work of the kingdom, leadership, and helping people than live a life full of leisure so that when I get to heaven, I'm going to get through the reward line fast because God doesn't have much to say.

You hit the nail on the head. There’s good weariness and bad weariness, just like loneliness. There’s the good loneliness like when Christ goes off on his own, and then there’s the bad loneliness. The weariness, it is very interesting that you talked about Torrey finishing the race strong. It means you don’t let off the paddle. Dad did not like it when he would ask people, “What are you doing?” They’re like, “We’re retired.” I’m like, “Don’t say that.” He’s like, “We don’t ever retire in the kingdom. What if John would have retired on the isle of Patmos?” We finished strong and beware. There are times when I’m so tired but there’s a good weariness that you know that you’re exhausted but in such a good way. I love Youth for Christ. I was in that as a youngster.

Frankly, there are people who are tired of doing nothing. The redefinition of those people’s “tiredness” is they are actually bored with the lack of accomplishment in their lives. Those are some people that I don’t want to get behind in the rewards line in heaven because they’re going to be getting a lot of rewards from God. We often forget that there are rewards in heaven. Everybody thinks it’s weird and everybody comes and pushes back against it and says, “God wouldn’t set up a reward plan.”

It’s like you didn’t set up a reward plan for your kids when you said, “If you do these chores, you get five stars” or whatever. God says we are going to be rewarded for the things we accomplished on Earth and if we get that, then we will be ready to receive these rewards from God. I don’t want to be the guy who God says, “Next. Leave. You didn’t do much. Go to your mansion and see you later.”

The Ultimate Kingdom: God says we will be rewarded for the things we accomplished on Earth. And if we get that, we will be ready to receive these rewards from God.

I love it. I call that stacking crowns and you said accelerate the kingdom. We’re building it up and doing it now versus later. Have you ever read Erwin Lutzer’s One Minute After You Die?

Yeah.

I read that probably at least every other month. He talks about that and what we’re doing here. It’s the parable of the talents. What are we going to be doing in heaven? I’m like, “I don’t want to be unemployed in heaven.” I want to have discussions with you about how incredible things are. What we’re doing here is we’re honing our chops or spirit. We’re just in a different form that we’re going to be doing that. I love that you brought that out. That’s why he says, “Don’t grow weary.” We say, “I said the prayer. I’m done. I will just sit back and wait until the end.”

To bounce off one of your dad’s eternal life insurance policy pamphlets. You don’t want to say, “I got a fire insurance policy against hell and I have nothing to do until I get to heaven.” That’s ridiculous.

The next thing he talked about was abandonment. Again, there's good abandonment and bad abandonment. We hear the fear of abandonment. If you’re in pet rescue like me, that’s a bad thing. What my father talked about was that abandonment was like a hyper-focus. I can remember one time I went into the basement, where his office was, as a teenager. He was at the height of his career and I remember him sitting there with this look on his face. I was like, “What’s up, Dad?” He said, “Tracey, I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than I do my success.”

I’m like, “What are you talking about?” He’s like, “You need to learn the Law of Abandonment, which is pruning. Stop thinking and doing what you like and want to think about in favor of what you ought and need to be about.” It captures all those thoughts. The devil loves busyness and working our fingers to the bone, but not all work is the purest form of our work. Can you talk about, with all your transitions, things, and all the different requirements on you, how you deal with abandonment and stay tightly focused on the best and highest use of god’s calling for you?

I have a son named Carson. He’s an Anglican priest up in Wenatchee, Washington. He wrote an article one time that I loved where he basically said, “You’re trying to get the first thing on your list done that is important and you decide to go check the news. You read the news about the latest politics and then you see an ad for better dog food. You click on that and then you’re working on looking at this dog food and you see something for dog little outfits. You click on that and then the next thing you see is an article about the Caribbean vacation. You’re talking about the Caribbean vacation and you look at your watch and half an hour has gone by. You’re now looking at what new carpet colors are hot in the world.”

You went from here to here but you never got the first thing done. I remember right here in my office, I have a big whiteboard thing and it’s full of sticky notes. It’s all about our May 2024 conference, which is about ten months away. I was thinking, "There are a lot of fun things I could do today, but I need to do that work on the conference, but it’s ten months away.” I started doing some other stuff that was fun and then I realized I had to go sit in the chair in front of the whiteboard and figure out who are my final speakers for May 2024. Part of it took me to go and sit in that chair. There’s that insurance salesman who wasn’t your dad who said, “The difference between successful people and non-successful people is successful people have learned to do the things that unsuccessful people are not willing to do.”

I had to go sit in my chair, look at the whiteboard, and figure out what had to be done. I could go home and say to my wife, Shelly, “All the speakers for the conference are done.” I felt great like Torrey Johnson said, “You feel great.” Here’s the deal. God is the creator. God, Jesus, and the holy spirit worked to create Earth. They gave Adam and Eve work in the garden. They said work is going to look different until Jesus comes again. When we go to heaven, we’re going to work in heaven. It’s work, not leisure or there would be no men and women created, no Earth created, and no work in heaven. Some people think we’re going to sit in heaven with white robes, harps, and clouds. That’s not the deal. We are going to work in heaven and work now is a test. Work is a good thing so let’s get to work.

That abandonment and the quote that you talked about were habits. It’s Albert E.N. Gray’s The New Common Denominator of Success. Probably, at least half of our audience out there haven’t read that. If you haven’t gotten what Greg was talking about, it is habits. You’re sitting there and saying, “Turn it off. This is what I’m going to do.” It reminds me, Greg. You got to drive an Amish buggy when he was in Lancaster. Correct, Greg?

Yes ma’am.

For those of you who have been up in Amish country here in South Central Pennsylvania, the horses are on there. Sometimes they have those blinders on so they’re not distracted. That’s what you need to do with yourself. You need to saddle up, get your lobe behind you, put them little blinders on, and get to walk. Every time I think about those horses, I’m like, “God, may I have the focus in the singularity of those Amish horses.”

Loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. The last topic he said is vision. I know growing up, I’m listening to the great people. I thought, “They have something going on. They have this visionary gene.” My dad is like, “Tracey, vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it. If all you are is talking about the future but not putting a plan of action, that’s not vision. That’s daydreaming.” Can you talk to us about how you continue to hone your leadership vision, maybe even for what’s next for Convene?

COVID was something that helped us to hone our vision, which is oddly juxtaposed with the COVID situation where we couldn’t get together. What we do is we get together. We don’t manufacture things. We don’t invent or necessarily just write things. We get men and women who are CEOs in a room to work together on their business and do it on a biblical platform. All of a sudden, we couldn’t get together. Thanks to our amazing team. In about 48 hours, we reinvented the organization, and all the groups from coast to coast, 70-plus groups, were getting together on this crazy thing we never heard of before called Zoom.

We became a Zoom room organization in 48 hours. That was a vision from our field leaders and our headquarters leaders. We basically said, “How can we reinvent the original vision?” The original vision as you indicated was, “Let’s create a faith-based version of Vistage,” which is a take-off from these mastermind groups of earlier days that said, “The power of many minds around a table is greater than the power of one.” That was a reinvention of our vision and it was a very exciting time. Now, the virtual Convene groups are emerging as a very significant piece of our business. That’s exciting.

The Ultimate Kingdom: The power of many minds around a table is greater than the power of one.

Thank you for sharing that, Greg. We covered loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Anything else all things leadership that we have not hit on with the price of leadership context that you would like to share with our audience?

Something that I learned in my ServiceMaster days in twenty years was that you need to value people and not see people as a unit of production but as a person to be loved, valued, and appreciated. In those days, that seemed very faith-esque. It's like "That's what you Jesus people do. You love people, pat them on the back, and say I love you." The studies have now concluded that when you love people, they perform at a higher level and the organization is more profitable.

You need to value people. Don’t look at a person as a unit of production but as someone to be loved, valued, and appreciated.

That was a Harvard study called The Service Profit Chain. The Service Profit Chain said exactly what I said, “When you value and appreciate and love people and take care of them, you will end up having them do a better job for you and there will be more profits.” The Service Profit Chain is a big deal and we try to teach that throughout our Convene network.

I love hearing that. That’s so important. In more and more leadership stuff that I’m teaching, they say the L word, which is love. Before, it was like, “Of course, she would say that.” It’s the heart and the love of the leader for the people. I know Ken Blanchard would always tell me, “Tracey, look at every person as an oyster. There’s a pearl in there somewhere. Remember that. Even though they may be slimy and stinky outside, get them to open up and find that pearl in there.” I love that you said don’t treat them as a unit of production. That’s beautiful. Greg, talk to us about Convene. I love for our audience to hear more about it because everybody I talk to, I tell about it. Bud and I are going to a lunch and I’d love to share if somebody is interested in it. What does that look like for them?

Let me come out interestingly from some of the four things that we talked about. We did some surveys that are very empirical and we discovered that people were lonely in leadership. We discovered that people didn’t have a good track to run on how to integrate their faith into their business. We discovered that people were concerned about profitability, faith, and all those kinds of things. At this stage, we looked at other models and the bible. We looked at this whole notion of Jesus and the 12 disciples for 3 years where he was in a peer-to-peer networking group. We said, “How could we create something that champions business performance, profit, people, and excellence, and how do we do that all by laying it on a biblical platform?”

About 28 years ago, we were at Saddleback Church with a pastor named Brian Thatcher and an elder named Rick Green. Tick was in Vistage and Brian was with the Navigators, and they put the peanut butter in the chocolate together and created BBL Forum, Beyond the Bottom Line, turning the Sunday stuff into Monday stuff for better lives and business. That was how we began. Rick Warren, if you’re tuned in, it started at Saddleback Church. It did because Brian and Rick were going to Saddleback Church. Back in the day, Saddleback was not this giant mega church. It was an organization meeting in high school gyms. We’re very grateful for the fanning the flames of Convene that Rick Warren did, and the great blessing that occurred by us being able to build on some of the relationships at Saddleback.

We are basically about business performance and eternal perspective. We’re about people helping each other to run a great business. I’ll never forget there were four objectives that ServiceMaster when I was there. One was to honor God in all we do, help people develop, pursue excellence, and grow profitably. We would often, at times, not be as close to being on budget as we wanted to be. Our president Bill Pollard would remind us, “We’re not the Salvation Army. We’re not the Billy Graham organization. We’re a business. We need to be profitable because if you’re not profitable, you don’t have a business to honor God.”

The Ultimate Kingdom: Honor God, pursue excellence, love people, and according to Harvard's Service Profit Chain. It'll all work together.

Frankly, if you’re a nonprofit, it doesn’t mean you can’t have excess revenue over expenses. You still need to be cash-positive and income, meaning you need to be more than expenses or you don't get to do the mission that you're doing. It's profitable, honors God, pursues excellence, and loves people. According to Harvard's Service Profit Chain, it'll all work together.

How do people find out about the Convene Groups?

Our website is ConveneNow.com. Click on it and get out there. Don’t keep leading alone. That’s not how God designed you. He designed you to work in a community and when you bring an idea, problem, or difficult situation to the group, it happens all the time that you come up with a better solution than banging your head against the wall by yourself in a locked room.

I love that and I love you tied it back to the price of leadership because leadership is a shared endeavor. You have your followers, but leaders have to pour into one another like Jesus with the disciples. For the leaders tuning in out there, who pours into you? I’m not talking about your spouse. You need to get with peers so they can pour into you. I was a Vistage member earlier and when I first got back, I knew enough to know that I could be the smartest person.

This is where we are never meant to do this alone. There are so many benefits and advantages to it. Thank you, Greg, for stepping in, sharing about leadership, and all the work you’re doing with Convene. I know so many people who are involved with it. I met so many business owners and to see the impact you have on them is profound.

It's a pleasure that we get to do it and fan the flames of the vision of our founders to honor the biblical values of community and advance the kingdom of God. It's not very fun to say I'm building a business for myself to make a lot of money so I can scroll it away and die with millions of dollars in the bank. That is not a life worth living.

To build a business for yourself to make a lot of money so you can scroll it away and die with millions of dollars in the bank is not a life worth living.

That’s what happened in the Parable of Talents. That didn’t end too well. He got cast out and called lazy and wicked. I love you’re bringing that perspective. Greg, I thank you so much. To our audience, we wouldn’t have a show without you. We thank you so much for tuning in and for paying the price of leadership. If you like what you’ve heard, please be sure and hit the subscribe button. If you do give us the honor of a review, we would be so thankful, and share this with some other leaders who need to hear some of the wisdom, insights, and experience that Greg has shared. You keep on paying the price of leadership. Greg, thank you so much. I’m thrilled we connected. I look forward to many more tremendous connections in the future.

Thanks, Tracey.

You’re welcome. To our audience out there, you have a tremendous rest of your day. Bye-bye.

 Important Links

• Convene Corporation

• Arrow Leadership

• Christian Leadership Alliance

• One Minute After You Die

• The Service Profit Chain

• The New Common Denominator of Success

About Greg Leith

Greg's life mission statement is “to strengthen great leaders and exponentially accelerate the kingdom”. He is the CEO of Convene Corporation where thousands of Christian CEOs connect around business excellence built on a biblical foundation.

Before that Greg was a senior executive for 20 years with The ServiceMaster Company, a multi-national, $9 billion dollar firm engaged in Health Care and Education management as well as franchising. As a non-profit leader, he served as Vice President of Arrow Leadership and Director of Leadership Development for Christian Leadership Alliance.

Episode 170 - Mike Capuzzi - Leaders On Leadership

True leadership isn't defined by titles; it's about unleashing your influence, distilling wisdom into bite-sized impact, and leaving an indelible mark of positive change. In this episode, we have the remarkable Mike Capuzzi, author, nonfiction book coach, and short book publisher, to touch on essential topics that every leader can relate to. He discusses how to overcome challenges like loneliness, weariness, and abandonment while fostering a strong sense of vision that propels you forward. But more than that, Mike also uncovers the magic of short books by touching on the power of brevity and its unmatched ability to capture attention in a world full of distractions. He reveals his "magic kit" – a trio of short books on topics like gratitude, working together, and more – available exclusively for our listeners. Join us and learn how to leverage your unique experiences and stories to inspire change!

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Mike Capuzzi - Leaders On Leadership

I have a tremendous guest Mike Capuzzi. I connected with Mike, Jeff and Lancaster had me on the Lancaster podcast. As soon as it was done, just like what wonderful and tremendous people do, it's all about the people you meet. We're going to talk about the book she read. He connected me with Mike. Mike, welcome.

Tracey, thank you very much. You are an awesome guest. You are a tremendous guest on my podcast a few weeks back, and I don't say that lightly. I texted Jeff afterward. I said, “Thank you. That was a great interview.”

That's what we do here with our tremendous tribe. We pay it forward and introduce other tremendous people. For our audience, I want to tell you a little bit about Mike Capuzzi. He's an author, a nonfiction book coach, and a short book publisher for business owners, entrepreneurs, and CEOs looking to leverage the power of being a short helpful book author. Are you beginning to see the connection between us?

Since 1998, Mike has helped thousands of business owners market their businesses smarter. Bite-Sized Books is his book publishing company, founded on his proven formula for creating short helpful books, he calls them Shooks, for business owners, entrepreneurs, and corporate leaders.

Shooks are the ideal type of book to publish because they're easy and fast to create. It can be read in about an hour and offer helpful ways for readers to connect with the author. At the end of this episode, we're going to talk more about this. Mike is also the author of nineteen books, including two international Amazon number-one bestsellers, The 100-Page Book and The Magic of Short Books. He's also the host of the Author Factor podcast, where he interviews business owners and authors, and shares his best tips, wisdom, and insights on how they write and leverage a nonfiction book in their businesses. Mike, I'm so excited to have you share with our guests.

I'm looking forward to this. Thank you very much.

You're welcome. My father wrote the book Life is Tremendous. He gave a speech called The Price of Leadership, probably one of the most listened to, recorded, and downloaded speeches. In it, he gets to the heart and the grit of leadership. He talks about the price of leadership and there are going to be four things that you as a leader are going to have to be paying to be a leader and not a leader in name only.

The first one he says is loneliness. We've all grown up here in that. It's lonely at the top and heavy is the head that wears the crown. Mike, can you talk to our audience about what loneliness has looked like in your journey as a leader or maybe a time you were in it? What recommendation or resources you would give to one of our listeners who perhaps is in that season right now?

First of all, it was your father's book that I have. It's a tremendous short book, Life is Tremendous. If you recall, I bought boxes of those books 10 or 15 years ago. I used them as business gifts when I first learned about it. You guys are also in Pennsylvania. That's where I'm located. I thought that was cool. Your father's book Life is Tremendous is a great example of a short helpful book.

Specifically to your question, honestly, I'm an introvert. Loneliness is not a big deal to me but I understand what it means in a bigger context. I thrive as an introvert, getting energy from being alone and being quiet and stuff like that versus being proud. In the context of what your dad was sharing and what you're talking about here, maybe isolation would be a better word that I would use these days. We know it's very easy as a business owner or as a corporate leader to be isolated and to shut yourself out of opportunities to brainstorm and network with other people, or hear other people's opinions, whether you think you have it all or you know it all or for whatever reason, location or whatever.

It's a dangerous trap. Being an introvert, I can find myself like, “I can do this alone. I can do it alone.” I can't believe I'm going to say this but now, when I need some feedback, I go to chatGPT and ask it a question like, “What do you think of this idea?” This is the question we asked one of my inner circle friends, but now with the technology, it is so simple to do that. It's something to be aware of when you're in that spot.

In a business context, it hasn't been a bigger deal. Personally, I've had instances in my life. The biggest challenge is like working through that and realizing it's hard. It's like having to go workout when you don't feel like working out. You have to force yourself to either reach out, open yourself up, or seek out someone that can help you, and be open to that. In the business context, one of the most powerful things we can talk about it more is having your inner circle, your own Mastermind group, someone you can text on the phone or pick up on the phone and say, “I need some help. I need some feedback. I am struggling with this,” whatever it might be. To me, that is key to that factor of loneliness.

Leadership: You have to force yourself to reach out, open yourself up, and seek out someone that can help you.

You said another word could be isolation. Loneliness is not always bad. There are times when we need to unchart or be in the quiet and stuff. I love that you brought that up. Each of these terms is amoral. It's neither good nor bad. There's a good loneliness and a bad loneliness. Isolation is always a bad loneliness because that's not how when are in the creative space and need help. We're meant to do a cord of three strands. It is not easily broken. I love that you share that. For all our introverts out there that are using chatGPT, that is so funny. I hadn't even thought about that.

It's a friend. It can be a real crutch or whatever. When you're brainstorming an idea or creative idea, I'm all about that. I was brainstorming a new idea and I needed some data and some feedback on some of the ideas. It's scarily amazing how good some of that stuff is.

Even Google, we’re researching that part. I want to pull all the data, but that's your best friend. There are a lot of scary science fiction movies out there like this where all of a sudden, I look at you and I'm like, “What would you do with Mike? Where did he go?” We’ll use the good side of technology and not the bad side of things. I love it. Thanks for unpacking that.

The next topic he talked about is weariness. It's a lot running a business, having a family, taking care of elderly parents, seeing loved one's crossover, and staying the visionary because you're running an entity. You have all those authors looking to you and saying, “How do I take this book to the next level?” How do you combat weariness?

We could spend an hour talking about that. If you're a person of faith, that is a foundation that you can always go back to and lean on that. I would also say all of us have an opportunity to up our personal health. Any of us do. I don't care if you're a world-class athlete or not. There are things we can do, and I've gotten very serious personally. I’m coming up on three years.

All of us have an opportunity to up our personal health.

In the last few years, coming up in November of 2020 when I went in for a physical. I got some not-horrible stuff but just some blood work that my doctor was like, “This is not looking good.” I finally start to get serious about it and research and understand what those numbers could mean, knowing that heart disease and stuff like that is in my family. Since November 2020, I've missed walking my daily multiple-mile walk by maybe 3 or 4 days, which I never thought I could do.

I had a friend of mine that used to walk every day. I was like, “How do you do that?” Now I'm in that mode but I've gotten serious. I always knew about it. We know we should be doing X, Y, and Z. We know we shouldn't be eating X, Y, and Z and eating A, B, and C. Again, it's the loneliness isolation factor. Sometimes you got to draw a line in the sand and say, “Enough is enough.” I hope that the path I'm on now as far as my health is staying healthy and focusing on that. I hope I can be consistent with that because that's a big challenge.

Weariness for me, if I'm physically feeling good. It doesn't mean you won't become weary. God has given us a lot of natural abilities like sleep. Food is medicine. I believe all this. I believe so much of that can have a huge impact on how you feel, specifically weariness. I'm not sure if that's what you're thinking.

The weariness of the soul, you hit on with loneliness. That's where your Mastermind group comes in and ministers to you, but we're still flesh and blood. We're mere mortals and we have the death clock. Sorry, I know it's motivational but the minute you're born, it's a point under one each of us to die. I love that you talk about it. You mentioned the word crutch. I heard this in a sermon while I always driving to work. They said, "People say, 'your faith is a crutch.'" He goes, "It's not a crutch. It's a hospital." I love that because that gives you.

The Bible is pretty clear about gluttony and overindulgence in certain things and health. We don't worship it but in the same token, we want to run the race strong. You can't do that if you're not physically strong. I reclaimed my health about five years ago. I saw Joyce Meyer in Hershey. I think she’s 80 now and she was pushing 75. She stood up on stage, and she had lost 20 pounds. She looked phenomenal. She's like, “I got a coach. If I'm going to finish the race strong, I got to take care of the shell.” I'm like, “There you have it.”

That's incredible but isn't it interesting? You said it. We know sugar is bad. We know you have to exercise and burn more than you take in like a bank account. You have to put in more than you take out. Otherwise, you're bankrupt. How did I gain weight? It's a scientific formula, but isn't it funny that it takes something where we finally then go, “Time to take action?”

Scarily enough, a majority of people, even when they get those wake-up calls, come on. We're not going to go down any rabbit holes here but there has been wake-up call after wake-up, whether it's in the world or personal. What I find amazing my dad is 81 and in good health. He lives in Florida and we talk several times a week. He was a college professor and a very contrarian type. Not a typical academic but regardless, we have these deep conversations about why humans are so good at not the things they ought to be doing and consciously doing that. It's a very interesting thought when you think about it.

I love that. That's cool. You said, contrarian. That's one of my favorite books. Steven Sample was the 10th president of USC. The Contrarian’s Guide to Leadership, I wonder if your dad read that. It's very much the same thing. We got free will and we're intrinsically self-oriented. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. When your body is craving or telling you these things, you've got to master that old flesh side that rears up.

The Contrarian's Guide to Leadership by Steven B. Sample

Speaking of which, we talk about abandonment. I'm in pet rescue and helping people over the fear of abandonment. Abandonment gets a bad name, abandoning pets and abandoning your marriage. My father talked about abandonment as more of a focus and a pruning, instead of what you like and want to think about or eat, you do what you ought and need to think about.

As you said, "I never thought I could walk." You do it one day at a time. With all the great ideas out there in publishing and I'm sure you get ten million people a year to call you and say, "What about this?" You're looking at stuff and going, "What about this?" How do you stay abandoned and focused on what you need so you can get the best value for your precious time and business?

I'm pretty good at that. I do believe I am very good at discerning where I should be spending my time and how I should be investing my time. You and I were talking before we hit record. As you get older, you get even more mature and wiser about these things. I have two daughters that are getting ready to graduate college. I try to teach them about trying to understand what's important and what's not.

At that age, young twenties, they're still not getting it as much as I wish they were. There's a focus on stuff that's probably distracting, to say the least. It comes down to what's important to you and what the big picture looks like. For our clients, I have a motto for a book publishing business. It's always about serving the reader. If I can help my clients serve the readers and I can help my clients by serving them, it sounds cliché but that mindset of service and putting that first, before the almighty dollar and before how we're going to make money and all this other stuff, which is important. I'm not denying that. When you have certain mindsets, principles, beliefs, and non-negotiables, it makes that idea of abandonment and what's important and what's not much easier.

For a book publishing business, it's always about serving the reader.

It's such an important topic. You said it's so good discerning where you should be spending your time and money. That's the one thing then people go, "That's not happening." I'm like, "Where are you spending your time? Who are you having conversations with? What are you reading?" “Nothing.” I go, "That spells nothing." Charles would say that. He's like, "Nothing works unless you work it." You got to get really clear on what that is. I remember when I was twenty as a young woman, they'll get there.

They're on the path. It's just like your father and mother.

Thank God I had the military. I tell people, “If I didn't have the military when I was young. I'd be living in a van down by the river. I'm not kidding.” There's always a military. It works for a lot of us. Thank you for sharing that on discernment and I love that. It gets down to two words. What's important?

People will say, “This is important to me.” I'm like, “Where are you spending your time?” “On something else.” I'm like, “You’re telling yourself a lie. That is not important to you.” The proof is in the pudding. The last one is vision. Vision is a beautiful thing. It's got this future aspect. It's highly integrated with leadership. It's the why?

My father was a contrarian. He was very pragmatic. He would always say, “Vision is you don't have to go up to the mountain or be like Nostradamus. Vision is seeing what needs to be done, so this sight, and then doing it. There's what you want to attract yourself but also this beautiful action, strategy, and tactics. How do you vision cast? How do you set the stage for what's nice next for your business? You've been here since 1998, which is phenomenal. How do you forecast what's coming up next for Mike Capuzzi in Bite-Sized Books?

The first thing is probably being healthy. Therefore, the brain is hopefully being optimized. Your health is there, and I was always healthy. I've gotten better at it. I've been blessed in that respect. Thank God, no major issues. It's like a car. If you put crappy gas in the car, it’s going to run crappy. If you put good fuel, it runs better. That's foundational.

You and I talked about this on my podcast. I'm a voracious reader at 5 years old and at 50-something, I'm still a voracious reader. I like to think that input from a lot of different people is very helpful to not only learning new things but being reminded, encouraged, and motivated. I'm also a big fan of quiet time and creative thinking time. It’s like you're saying, “I don't go off.” I'd like to eventually go off into the wilderness.

Leadership: Input from a lot of different people is very helpful to not only learning new things but just being reminded, encouraged, and motivated.

I'm very good about being very proactive about being quiet, typically outside, oftentimes, with my dog next to me and letting it happen. Letting the brain flow. By the way, I moved it because I was cleaning up my desk. I am old school, pen and paper. I've got a clipboard I use. I take outside with me this newest idea that I've been thinking about, the one I was saying about with chatGPT.

My wife and daughters were moving back up. My daughters are at Penn State, so they're getting ready to move into a new apartment. I had 24 hours by myself and my notes are right over here because it's important, at least for me, to have that quiet time where I can think and visualize like, “What does this look like?” Typically, it doesn't all come at that moment. Can I share a real quick story?

Please.

I sent you a box of our books. This is a very cool story just to exemplify this. This is no lie. I forget the exact date June 30th or July 1st of 2022. A good friend of mine and I had this conversation. He is pretty proactive about trying to make the country back on a good path. I'll leave it at that and he's doing a lot, and I'm very motivated by what he does.

I got on a phone call with him to say, “This is awesome what you're doing. What can I do?” I'm not an outspoken person. I'm not going to be out there banging. I'm not that. He said, “You have a platform. You help others and bring people books.” This was right before July 4th, 2022. I had this thing in my feeling. I remember sitting outside that day with my dog. This idea came to me for a new book and more of a compilation book, where I'm bringing on what turned out to be thirteen military veterans. I mentioned this to you.

This idea came to me on July 4th, just a quiet and peaceful time outside. Here's the chill part and you probably know this, where you live in Pennsylvania. I'm sitting here thinking, "Is this a good idea?" My wife was even outside with me. I'm like, "This idea of a book called I Love America. I'm thinking I'm going to feature people who have this love for America and want it to be a better place and all that.” A Bald Eagle flew over my house. I swear. I'm in Southeastern Pennsylvania. Bald eagles are not common but they're there. I'm trying to get my phone. You talk about a sign from God or above. As soon as I saw that and had I not been out there in this mode. On Veterans Day, which was November, and a couple of months later, I Love America, the first book came out.

I love that confirmation but you got to be quiet and watching. Sometimes we're so noisy with their self-thought about, “I got to figure it out.” Let it come to you, the creativity and the confirmation, and stop blocking your creativity and blessing pipeline. That is awesome.

It doesn’t always happen that way. I wrote about it in the book. It's in the book. I'm like, “This is for me.”

It doesn't always happen that way because we're not meant to be doing everything. The little bits that you get told to do, then you go and do that. Who knows? We may not write as much as John Maxwell or C.S. Lewis but that's okay. Every now and then, if we put something out there for people to digest, we’re doing our part to add to the collective body of wisdom. I love that. We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Bonus points for vision casting with your dog. For our audience, I think you know how I feel about this. When you put God, nature, and dogs together, get ready. It's like the trifecta.

How cool is that?

I don't want to get cat hate.

Maybe.

I have three cats too. Don't send me any nasty emails. I love my cats. I have one right here now. They just listen. They're just looking at me. Loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Mike, what else? is there anything else? We talked a lot about leadership, things you've gone through, things you've changed, and the impetus for change. Is there anything else that we have not touched on?

Here's what I came up with. It’s very applicable. It's pretty mature to share where I'm going with this. I wrote down two words relative to something new I want to work on. It's very applicable to this conversation and a word of encouragement for the audience. The two words were influence and impact. I've focused in the last five years primarily almost 100% of my time on using books. That type of media is a way to allow business owners, entrepreneurs, and corporate leaders to share their influence and impact it.

It goes even beyond that. I would say for a lot of people tuning in, especially if you are at a season in your life where maybe most of it is in the rearview mirror. You haven't necessarily shared what you've done and what you can do. There are people out there that would love to hear and read, whatever it might be.

I would have encouraged people to think about that. It's not necessarily about making money or business. There's so much wisdom and things that all of us have done that maybe it's technical. I help people write books. That's a technical thing. Maybe it's about beating cancer or whatever. I worked with a doctor who helps people with osteoporosis. Whatever it might be. I would encourage you, if you feel like it's there and you haven't ever done a book, to talk to Tracey or me. Share that. Share it. It's cool.

It is. Charles would say that. We talked about that in the show, “You're the only one that's been through this. You are a genius in something in your life because only you went through it.” To not share that is selfish. You were put to go through it, not to break you down and strengthen you, but so you can be an encouragement to other people.

All those books people are writing these books. There's a reason people write books and a reason people love digesting books. You grew up loving books. I grew up reading to earn money and on a need to know but you can cultivate a love of reading later in life, just like picking up golf or going to skydive. I published a gentleman's book that was 92. It's never too late to hone this skill and your appetite.

If people don't love reading, it's because they haven't been open to it. It's like when people scoff at the Bible, I'm like, “Have you ever read it or looked at it?” “No, but I've heard.” You can judge anything you want but if you say that to me, what does that even matter to you? There are so many books out there. The Wisdom of the Ages is out there. As you said, I would encourage it.

Everything is out there. Everything has been written. There's new technology or something that has, but as far as the fundamental stuff, it's there. That's why your dad's book was such a great resource for me years ago because I love to read. There are times when a short book makes so much sense and there's a lot of very powerful short books.

I 100% agree with you. The other thing I would share and you know this as well as I do. When you put a book out there, for example, 99 out of 100 times, you will never know how it impacts someone. You don't know that. One percent of the people will leave a review on Amazon or write you an email or something but I can guarantee the numbers are much bigger.

When you put a book out there, 99 out of 100 times, you will never know how it impacts someone.

I'm always blown away on my podcast when I'm interviewing people and I don't know somebody. They get on and say, “Mike, your book inspires me to do something like this.” That's happened so many times. I didn't know that. I would say think about that because it's not about the reviews, although they’re nice. You're helping people and you don't even realize you're helping people.

The seminal people took 50 years plus. When you pull up Aristotle or Aesop's Fables or the greats from so many years ago, you're like, "Look at this. It's like I know them." If they hadn't taken the time to write it down, the Bible is the number one bestseller of all time. If his apostles and disciples, if Matthew, Mark, Luke, and all the prophets in the Old Testament had not taken the time to write it down, what would we have?

The storytelling is beautiful but why not do both? Take your stories and write them down because you may not be around to tell that story or you may get canceled and you don't get to tell yours and anything. A book can be given out there. You talk about handing books out to business people and entrepreneurs. Charles would say, "Don't get people your business card because they'll throw it away. Give them a little book because they're not going to forget that." There you are with the little book. Mike, how do people get a hold of you? I hope we've inspired some of our business leaders. You've done so much. Time to get your little book out.

Thank you. Our publishing business is Bite-SizedBooks.com but with you're blessing, I'm going to offer your audience a gift to read three of my short books, The Magic of Short Books, which has been an Amazon number one bestseller off and on for the last three years, The Magic of Working Together and The Magic of Gratitude. These are three little short books that your audience can grab digitally so they're up online hidden if they go to my primary site which is MikeCapuzzi.com/magic. I call it my Magic Kit. They can grab those three books.

The Magic of Short Books: Discover a Unique & Different Kind of Book to Attract Your Ideal Customer by Mike Capuzzi

I love this because sometimes people go, “A short book, that makes me look less than.” I'm like, “No.” You can write 500 other books but get this first. It's like getting in your PhD. Write something and get it done, then you can get twenty more and write 700-page dissertations. Just get it done. What is the stats? I told you this in the show, 72% of the people don't make it past page 50. Bite-Sized Books is the answer.

I believe so. This doctor who's an osteoporosis surgeon got his short book done. He's like, “My colleagues are telling me I need to write the big book.” I said, “Rather than write this big book that no one is going to read, write 4 or 5 shorter books.” As soon as I said that, he was like, “That's the way to do it.”

For our audience out there, when people say, “No, write this,” look at them and say, “How many books have you published?” I'm like, “I'm just going to go with the people that have published and listen to them.” As you said, they're quick, easy, and affordable to print. They're very affordable. It's no different than putting in your little marketing piece, but it's a meaty marketing piece that can change somebody's life. It’s a big deal.

Mike, I can't thank you enough for being here and sharing with us. I love what you're doing. I love that you're close. I look forward to many more. I love the influence and impact sessions with you. I want to thank you for sharing what you did in leadership. It greatly helped me and inspired me. I know you did to our audience too.

Thank you very much. You were a great guest, so I'm glad. Hopefully, it was able to meet halfway there.

You're welcome. To our tremendous tribe out there, thank you so much for being part of everything that we're doing. We couldn't do it without you. If you like this episode, please be sure and hit the like and subscribe button. We'd be honored if you would leave us a review. Also, make sure you connect with Mike Capuzzi. The purpose of this is not just to tune in but also to connect and have valuable resources.

Never forget, as my father said, “You'll be the same person five years from now that you are today except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read.” You just met the tremendous Mike and he gave us some tremendous book. You can go to his site and download three of them, so you'll be triple tremendous. Everybody, thanks so much again. Keep on paying the price of leadership. We're right there with you.

Important Links

• Mike Capuzzi

• Bite-Sized Books

• The 100-Page Book

• The Magic of Short Books

• Author Factor

• Life is Tremendous

• The Contrarian's Guide to Leadership

• I Love America

• Wisdom of the Ages

• Aesop's Fables

• MikeCapuzzi.com/magic

About Mike Capuzzi

Mike Capuzzi is an author, nonfiction book coach and short book publisher for business owners, entrepreneurs and CEOs looking to leverage the power of being a short, helpful book author.

Since 1998, Mike has helped thousands of business owners market their business smarter. Bite Sized Books is his book publishing company, founded on his proven formula for creating short, helpful books (shooks™) for business owners, entrepreneurs and corporate leaders. Shooks are the ideal type of book to publish because they are easy and fast to create, can be read in about an hour and offer helpful ways for readers to connect with the author.

Mike is the author of 19 books, including two international Amazon # 1 Best Sellers, The 100-Page Book and The Magic of Short Books. He is also the host of The Author Factor Podcast where he interviews business owner authors and shares their best tips, wisdom and insights on how they write and leverage a nonfiction book in their businesses.

Episode 169 - John Feloni - Leaders On Leadership

True leadership lies not in the title, but in embracing the burdens of loneliness, weariness, and abandonment while forging a visionary path. In this episode, John Feloni, bestselling author of The Fall of the House of Hutton, The Covenant Secret, and The Tollbooth, explores the four pillars that can make or break leaders: loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. John also unveils the dangers of hubris and misguided leadership, drawing from historical examples like the infamous fall of the House of Hutton. He also lets us enter the world of "The Toll Booth," his latest business parable that promises to captivate your mind and soul. Tune in now as we unravel the secrets to becoming exemplary leaders!

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast HERE

John Feloni - Leaders On Leadership

Welcome to another show where we pull back the curtain on leadership and talk to leaders of all ages and stages about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. In this episode, I am so excited to introduce you to my new guest, John Feloni. John, welcome.

Thank you for having me.

Let me tell you a little bit about John. John is the bestselling author of several books, The Fall of the House of Hutton, The Covenant Secret, and The Tollbooth. John addresses the hubris of misguided leadership and explores inspired leadership and the seeking and developing of individual and organizational purpose, whether on Wall Street or a college campus. John uses his lifelong entrepreneurial spirit to act resourcefully and effectively and build extraordinary teams.

He considers himself blessed with a spectacular team as the Founder and CEO of Stock Squirrel, where he intends on executing a vision that will make a dent in the universe and expand this social consciousness of society. John, that is a beautiful vision, which we're going to talk about. Thank you again for being here.

Thank you for having me.

A lot of the audience is like, "Tracy, how do you know all these cool, tremendous people?" I always like to give a shout-out to who made the introduction, and that was Tony Makowski. Those of you who have published with me, Tony and I have been co-publishing for many years. Tony has published some of John's books and connected me with him. Thank you, Tony, for this tremendous introduction. Without further ado, John, we're going to get right into the topic of leadership.

My father gave a speech many years ago. It was probably one of the top speeches he gave called The Price of Leadership. In it, he talks about the four things that you as a leader are going to have to be paying to be truly doing leadership and not just a leader in name only. The first of those is loneliness. We've heard the term, "Lonely is the head that wears the crown. It's lonely at the top." Can you talk to us about a time in your career or life when you experienced the loneliness of leadership and maybe some words of wisdom in case one of our audience is going through it to help them get to the other side of it?

I'll give you an example. I was at EF Hutton and I was Chairman of Boone Pickens United Shareholders Association. EF Hutton was being taken over. It was a bad deal for shareholders and I brought a class action lawsuit to block the merger. I sued the company, which led to the bestselling book, The Fall of the House of Hutton. What was interesting is everyone agreed with me on the wrong that the hubris agreed on and everything that management and the board of directors were doing. I decided to take action on that. Everybody is all for you on all that, but when push comes to shove, you're standing out there alone.

That is a leader. What you learn from that is you're asked the question, "Would you do that again?" There are all kinds of obstacles and attacks on being a leader of something because you're out front alone. If you're truthful and you are passionate about the action you took, the answer is yes. I always answer as well I say, "I would be a little bit more elegant." It's because you do learn as you go that there are always ways to be more elegant in your leadership, and that comes with experience.

You learn as you go that there are always ways to be more elegant in your leadership, and that comes with experience.

You brought something up there. If you are on the front line in being courageous, there are a lot of people who like to stand behind you, but typically, there's that tip of the spear. As a leader, you have to prepare for it. I also love that you reflect and look at a way that you could get better. I'm sure that was a scary time. I did crisis leadership in my PhD and I studied a failed merger. It was wild in the heat of the moment. I love that you reflected and said you could be a little bit more elegant. There are times when, "Are we creating our loneliness?" We know there are going to be times of loneliness, but are there ways that I could have done it in a way that narrowed the gap a little bit?

That's beautiful. Thank you, John. Loneliness. The next is weariness. My father would always joke and say it's a joke but not joking, "Tracy, it's going to be tiring as a leader because there's going to be some people that do way more than what you ask of them, and then there's going to be a lot that doesn't." You're constantly having to pick up loads, shift, and balance different things. How do you combat weariness? Our team is only as strong as we are.

It always has to do with the team and with people. There are a few things. First of all, as a leader, I come up with a vision, which we'll talk about. A vision is a destination that I see clearly. My job is to get a bus and point the bus in the direction of the vision. My true job is to get all the right people and sit them in the right seats on the bus. That's going to change. You're going to have to adjust. There's nothing more difficult than letting people go. That's always hard. One of the things that addresses weariness and loneliness is to be a servant leader, where you lead from the bottom up rather than from the top down.

I'll give examples of that. When I was a broker at EF Hutton and in management, I hired more million-dollar producers than anyone. When I was given, they would let me go around the region talking to other managers and how you did that. My answer was very simple, not profound at all. I would take one of my brokers to breakfast or lunch. Every morning or every afternoon, I'd take a broker. I'd ask them what they were working on, and then I'd ask them what their goals were, and what they needed to accomplish their goals. I then went back to the office and got them what they needed.

Profoundly simple, but what typical management is, they would say, "You'll get this and this when you do this and this," whereas my approach was, "I'll give you this to get you there." You're not always going to be right. You got to trust people like adults and that's always difficult because the rules of organizations are always based upon the lowest common denominator of human behavior rather than the best. The weariness comes from fighting all of those external things, but it's your people and the vision that do away with the loneliness and the weariness.

You have to trust people like adults.

You said that rules are always based on the lowest common denominator. That's profound. We had Ken Blanchard on a leadership call teaching a course. He said the same thing. A lot of prevailing wisdom is you grade people, "You're a C or a D." He's like, "No. Everybody gets an A." There's a book where the guy wrote it and Ken was talking about it. Assume everybody has a great pearl in them, and you need to coach them up to an A. I love that you sit there.

You said it. This is making the assumption that they are self-directed, they understand their values, and they can articulate to you what their goals are. I love the one quoted. It's like, "You always want to delegate to the lieutenants providing you have good lieutenants." That is the assumption, especially in the financial services sector because you die out pretty quickly if you don't know or have a hunger for it. I love that you said that because that's what gets burdensome as a leader. That's what makes us weary. We're focusing our efforts on the wrong thing.

I trust my people. Even take as many sick days as you want and as many vacations. When you trust people and treat them like adults, they tend to behave that way as opposed to giving all of these rules and structures. Have faith in that human being and back them. You're going to be disappointed at times, no doubt, but less so than you think.

You also said the goals. Everybody thinks, "Servant leadership isn't letting everybody come up every day and decide what they want to do." You still have those goals out there. We are still part of a collective, so we're going to be on this sheet of music together, but let me know how you see the goals and the resources to get there. That's a beautiful definition of leadership, John. Thank you.

The next thing he talked about was abandonment. Typically, abandonment is a jagged word like fear of abandonment or abandoning pets. It has a negative connotation. In my father's case, he referred to it as a focusing effect. I can remember him saying to me, "Tracy, on any given day, I spend more time on becoming a failure than I do on a success." What he meant was that we need to stop spending time on what we like and want to do in favor of what we ought and need to do. His sense of abandonment was getting rid of the non-value-added things, thoughts, meetings, and whatever, so we could become very singularly focused. With you, how do you maintain that singularity?

It always has to do with people. You get visions, you have plans and strategies, and so forth, but it's always carried out through people. One of the ways that I'll deal with this, whether it's the loneliness, weariness, abandonment, or even the vision, is I learned something as a manager in a brokerage firm years ago. I was an assistant manager at EF Hutton. I was probably 26 years old. I was walking by this broker's office. He was a big broker and he called me in. It was a big office, 300 to 400 people. I always knew the politics of everything.

The guy, Chuck, he's a friend, calls me in and he starts giving me hell about this decision that was made by management, which he knew wasn't my decision, but he's given me hell about it. I learned something at 26, which was powerful. He was Italian, and I'm Italian. He's accusing me of all this management stuff that I had nothing to do with. He's attacking, which was out of character. I decided to ask a salesmanship 101 question, which is so simply absurd, but I decided to ask it because it was a weird situation.

Before I was going to engage him with my temper because he was running off, I said, "Chuck, is there anything else besides that that's bothering you?" He sunk back in his chair inside and he said, "My grandfather died last night," I yelled at him. I said, "You're going to give all the hell on and all this stuff." Here's what I learned, which adds to loneliness, weariness, and abandonment, that 90% of the time as managers and leaders, we're spending time and effort on issues that aren't even the issue. It behooves us to deal with that weariness, abandonment, and loneliness in the leadership function to make sure that we are dealing with the issue and to ask the questions and reveal the truth before you spend any time and effort yourself or the organization on solving a problem that is not the problem.

Tollbooth: 90% of the time, managers and leaders are spending time and effort on issues that aren't even the issue.

It's the old research thing. Correlation is not causation. That was correlated, but that wasn't the root cause analysis of what was going on. I love that simply absurd questions reveal the truth.

It was Drucker who said the difference between efficiency and effectiveness is that when you are efficiently putting a ladder up against the wall, it's solid, it's stayed, you're ready to paint, and you go up there, but it's the wrong wall. Putting it against the right wall is effective. We could be efficient at doing the wrong things too. We got to make sure that we're effective as well as efficient and we're dealing with the problems. These are all things that leaders learn over the years by experience. Hopefully, they learn them.

It's a skillset. I hope our audience is out there. That's a great question to ask somebody. I love that you said it was out of character for him. Rather than fight or flight, you're like, "Emotional regulation. I'm bringing this energy in and I'm going to calm it, diffuse it, and say what's going on." I love that. Thank you, John. Those are loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. Last is vision. Sometimes we think, "I'm not Nostradamus, Elon Musk, Oprah, or some of these big visionaries." I love what you said that vision is a destination. It's where you want to go. My dad would say it's seeing something and then devising a plan to get there. There was this attraction, but then this action aspect. What is vision to you and how do you keep honing it?

What's interesting is when you do follow a vision, especially in this world where you get feedback immediately on so many different levels, you have to adjust and pivot. You look at vision as a thermostat. You're going to get feedback continuously in adjusting, and you may have to change. What's interesting and a lot of entrepreneurs, especially in the technology space, will tell you that the vision of the company that they initially pointed to is nothing like the way it was ultimately executed.

As a matter of fact, there's a reason why in Silicon Valley, the venture capital firms back the jockeys more than the horses. They look for a management team and will back a management team more so than the idea of the company. It's because they know that that initial idea may not be even close to what the final product is once you touch the marketplace and once you touch customers. They know that good management teams know how to pivot when they're faced with the information of the marketplace and are able to adjust and bring the vision home, which may be entirely different than it initially was.

That is brilliant. I've been around a long time. I always tell people, "Even Jesus, the Holy Spirit came down on him and told him, 'This is my beloved son. He's the one.'" It is until you have the team.

Think about this. In his team of 12, 20% were no good. You had a doubter and a deceiver. Even Jesus had a management issue.

Yes, he did. That's fascinating. I love that you talked about vision. You adjust it and fine-tune it. Even me. I'm about to celebrate many years of being back and I'm looking at it. I'm where it was. Dad always says, "You'll be the same person five years from now, except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read." Every five years, I'm like, "Where are we now?" You morph into something different. You keep the DNA, but you're growing into something different. I love that you talked about that because we need to adjust our vision and say, "These aspects of it, we may have outgrown. Now, we're looking at this. I got the calling that this is done and I'm going on to the next one."

Who said it best was Napoleon. He was truly the greatest general. He won more battles than the next three combined numbers of battles. He was the greatest military strategist ever. He would plan and plan. As he said, he goes, "Every battle plan isn't worth a tinker's dam once you face the enemy." It prepares you for how to respond, but it changes its dynamic quickly. It's the same for a vision for a company, etc. Once you face the enemy or the marketplace, you got to continuously adjust. If you've done your homework, you know what your arsenal is in the adjustment. If you have the right team, you have the skillset in order to adjust as well.

Every battle plan isn't worth the tinker’s dam once you face the enemy.

They now talk about it. Remember, it was all IQ in the old school, and then it was the EQ. The last twenty years have been about the softest or the hardest leadership. Now, they're talking about AQ, your Adaptive Capacity. It doesn't matter how emotive people-oriented or smart you are, you got to be quick in the lightning seat. You have to be adaptive and regenerative because, on any given day, the best-laid plans are gone.

I'm just thinking of a marketing plan. It used to be years ago when I was young. It would take six months or a year before you knew what you were doing was effective or not. Now, you've got immediate feedback. You've got to have plans, you got to be ready, you got to adjust, and you got to pivot.

I love that because people out there are like, "I know, but I thought I was going to do this." I'm like, "That's okay. You still keep that overarching theme, but your flight plan can vary at any given thing." That's great for the audience to know. Hold on loosely. Don't let go.

It is the beauty of growing up too. Think about it. When I was young, I had fewer choices because the world was different. Now, youth have so many choices. I'm always, even with my children, trying everything. Learning is not just following your passion, but it's also learning the stuff you don't like. It's a process of elimination as well. That will hone you on your path as well. Not just succeeding, but the failures and learning that you are not good at something or dislike it will help direct you as well.

That's so important because most people are not sure exactly what they want. We talk about vision, and I would say 1 out of 20 people know at a young age, "This is what I'm going to do." The rest of us ebb and flow through life, but I love that. I'm not sure what I am put on earth to do, but I'm still going to try things, and then I'm going to see.

I would consult with certain people. You'd have a 40-year-old lawyer sitting across from me, and he's coming and sitting across from me looking for guidance and counseling. He doesn't want to be a lawyer anymore, but he doesn't want to make the change because of all of these reasons, societal, family, etc. I asked him a very simple question. I said, "Rather than sitting across from me who is older than you and more experienced, if you were sitting across from an eighteen-year-old, would you take their advice on which direction you should go professionally?" He says, "No, that's stupid." I said, "That's the age that you decided to be a lawyer, so it's okay to change your mind."

It is okay to change your mind, but you're right. Letting go of the comforts is tough. That's the entrepreneur's journey. I always worked for big bureaucracies and Fortune 100 companies. Making that transition is a shift, and it's a whole different kind of problem. I prefer entrepreneurial problems way better than bureaucratic problems. That's not everybody, but that's how I am.

Me too.

Most of our audience is, too, that's why they're reading or someday will be. We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. I want to talk more about leadership. Can we talk about The Fall of the House of Hutton? You talked about the dangers of hubris and misguided leadership. Can you unpack for us, what you found?

I'll do another book down the road and I call it The Custer Principle, George Armstrong Custer. Here's what happens. When we have results of something, people try to discipline themselves to make different actions and then decisions. Go back to beliefs because beliefs produce thoughts and thoughts produce decisions and certain actions and results. Most people, if they don't get the result they want, they go back to disciplining themselves on actions and so forth. You got to go back to beliefs.

Tollbooth: Most people, if they don't get the result they want, go back to disciplining themselves on actions and so forth. You have to go back to your beliefs.

Here is what the Custer principle is. I experienced this at EF Hutton, and then you experience it with a lot of hubris of powerful people. At the time, Georgia Armstrong Custer, who graduated last in his class at West Point was in the newspaper all the time. He was a great general, and he needed a huge victory because he wanted to run for president. Even though he had some personal flaws, he had the press and everything. He only had 140 men. He was faced with the largest congregation of Indians in the history of the country, 10,000 Indians. He had a colonel who was coming with a lot of troops, but they wouldn't be there for a couple of days. George Armstrong Custer decided, "I better attack these 10,000 before they find a way to escape." He attacked them with 140 men.

What I call the Custer Principle is that if you have a fixed viewpoint of something or a certain belief, you will create all kinds of nonsense in order to support that belief. From this book, I created what I call a SAT scan. Know how a CAT scan is Computer Aided Tomography, where you see 360 degrees of something. With us, our decision-making is going to be limited by the things that we believe and our viewpoints. With the SAT scan, I call it a Spiritually Aided Tomography, where you take the viewpoints and the opinions of someone anywhere from Jesus Christ to Hitler.

If you look and explore all of those personalities, then you look at the circumstance in front of you, now your opportunities and choices expand dramatically instead of limiting yourself. When you look at The Fall of the House of Hutton or whoever it may be when you see such massive falls, it's typically because that hubris was created by having limited viewpoints, limited beliefs, and the actions followed from those beliefs and viewpoints.

How do we as leaders avoid that?

We talk about diversity. The most important thing about diversity is having diversity of thought and viewpoints. When you're sitting across from someone and you're addressing a circumstance, to truly explore a diverse group of people who have a different experience, different life, and different education, all of a sudden, you're getting more information and you're expanding your choices. Ayn Rand said that there are only two reasons why we do something stupid. 1) Either we don't have enough information. 2) The information that we have is wrong, and we're making some decisions on that.

Probably the most important thing about diversity is having diversity of thought.

By having a good group of people around you, a diverse viewpoint, diverse backgrounds, and diverse education, you get to see and explore more things that are truthful. You get people to say, "You are holding that premise, and it's not true." All this stuff is important. That's the best thing a leader could do in order to make good decisions.

They always say if everybody's thinking alike, somebody's not thinking, yet I tell people, "You can look radically different, but if you're all in the echo chamber, you're not diverse." Like you said, it's your thought process. Yes, you want to look for the other, but it has to emanate. You set up here, like you said, beliefs and values, thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. That's where you got to get back to. I love that.

Thoughts, emotions, decisions, and behavior because these decisions are key.

Talk to us about your latest book that just came out, The Tollbooth.

The Tollbooth is interesting. It's a business parable where this younger guy is at a crossroads in his life. He can expand his company. He sees in the company newsletter with the chairman, who is a great founder of this great multinational conglomerate saying, "We should follow our heart, follow our passion," and so forth. He decides to see if he can get an audience with the CEO and the founder of this company because he wants to ask him a question. The question that he raises is a good one. He says, "You said in your newsletter that we should follow our heart. I feel that if I follow my heart, I will be leaving this company."

That's a profound statement to go to the CEO of a company. The CEO who was a very wise man takes him on a journey of exploring all that. He gives them a notebook where this person is going through his exploration in a tollbooth at night. A tollbooth is a metaphor for us going inside and for us being alone and not looking to the external world for answers, not looking for gurus, not looking for religion or wisdom, but to go inside where all the answers are. It's this journey that this young man goes through and comes to a conclusion at the end.

The Tollbooth: An Inspirational Story about One Man’s 40-Day Spiritual Journey

I love it. Tony sent me copies. I can't wait to read it. I love business parables too. John, what's the best way for people to reach out to you or get your books?

The books are on Amazon, or you can go right to the publisher. I have a website that I'll be building out more, JohnFeloni.com. You can reach me on LinkedIn. I love hearing about people. You can put a comment on Amazon a review of the book or what have you, and I'll respond.

John, thank you. Each of those four topics and then even after, you said something that gave me another little paradigm shift. You are everything and more than what Tony told you. I know our audience has enjoyed your thoughts and your wisdom and will connect with you. Thank you so much for being my guest.

Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it.

You're welcome. To our audience out there, we couldn't do it without you. Thank you for being a part of our tremendous tribe. If you like what you read, please do us the honor of hitting the subscribe button and sharing it with another leader looking to develop their leadership skills. If you'd give us the honor of a five-star review, we would be tremendously grateful. Be sure you connect with John and get his book. Remember, life is all about the people you meet and the books you read. Have a tremendous rest of your day.

Important Links

• The Fall of the House of Hutton

• The Covenant Secret

• The Tollbooth

• Stock Squirrel

• JohnFeloni.com

• LinkedIn – John Feloni

• Amazon – John Feloni

About John Feloni

As a bestselling author, of The Fall of the House of Hutton, The Covenant Secret, and The Tollbooth, John addresses the hubris of misguided leadership and explores inspired leadership, as well as individual motivation, personal inspiration, and the seeking and developing of individual and organization purpose. Whether on Wall Street or a college campus, John uses his lifelong entrepreneurial spirit to act resourcefully and effectively and build extraordinary teams. He considers himself blessed with a spectacular team as the Founder and CEO of StockSquirrel, where he intends on executing a vision that will make a dent in the Universe and expand the social consciousness of society.

Episode 168 - Lacey Langford - Leaders On Leadership

Leadership presents four key challenges for those in the position. These four keys are loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Lacey Langford, founder and CEO of the Military Money Show, shares how she deals with loneliness by surrounding herself with uplifting people. She also shares how being in the military taught her to combat weariness. Lacey shares how putting a time limit on your pity party helps her to cope with to avoid draining her energy. Being in the military did provide a huge impact on how she deals with leadership. Tune in to this insightful conversation with Lacey and Tracey today!

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Lacey Langford - Leaders On Leadership

I'm tremendously excited because my guest is Lacy Langford. Let me tell you a little bit about Lacey. Lacey Langford, AFC®, is a financial coach. She's a veteran and a military spouse who changes people's mindsets from being fearful of money to having control and confidence with it. She's an accredited financial counselor with many years of financial planning, counseling, and coaching experience.

Lacey is the Founder and CEO of the Military Money Show, a podcast dedicated to helping the military community make, save, and invest money wisely, and MilMoneyCon, which is an annual conference for financial professionals United by military service. Lacey, thank you so much for being our guest. It's an honor to have you here.

It's an honor to be here. Thank you for having me.

You are welcome and thank you for your service as well.

Thank you. You too.

You are welcome. I like to tell people because they are always like, “Tracey, how do you meet all these tremendous people on your show?” I am on, as you know, the American College of Financial Services. I'm the Chairperson for the Center for Military and Veterans Affairs. I have been on it for about a few years and I'm the Chairperson and Chief Master Sergeant Jim Roy. Retired chief master sergeant is on there with me and we had an opening on the advisory council. He had been at Lacey's MilMoney Conference. Connected me with her and now she's going to be on the advisory council too. After a meeting with her, I thought she has to be on my show as well. Lacey, it's tremendous to have you here.

Thank you. I'm excited about it. Everything works out the how it should, getting introduced, and meeting new tremendous people.

It sure does. Let's get right into it. The price of leadership, my father gave this speech many decades ago. It's the one speech he probably gave more in his life than any other speech. In it, he talks about four things that you are going to have to be faced if you are going to truly be a leader and not just a leader in name only. The first of those is loneliness and we have all heard that, loneliness is the head that wears the crown and it's lonely at the top. Can you share with our readers what loneliness looks like for you as a leader? Maybe a time in your career when you dealt with it and how you got through it?

First of all, I want to say thank you so much for sharing your father's speech with me. I had never heard that or read it before. I thought it was very powerful and resonated with me right out of the gate. I don't think people talk about loneliness enough as a leader, especially in business. It can be lonely at the top. That impacts me a lot. Not just in one situation, I don't think. I never intended to truly be a leader. I was trying to help people with their money.

It has evolved over time and grown out of me being focused on my mission and who I'm trying to help. Along the way, I have learned that sometimes it is very lonely because others don't know the full story. They don't know everything that's behind it. Being a leader means that you often are bearing the brunt of everything. You are trying to protect your people, your audience, your customers, or your consumers.

You are not trying to expose them to negative things or anything other than what you are trying to help them with or the service or product you are providing to them. That part is not necessarily a drawback. The loneliness part does make you a stronger leader. It makes you stronger in what you are doing. It makes you more resolute. Sometimes it can be perceived as a negative but I believe in trying to learn lessons and take the most out of it.

Being a leader means that you are often bearing the brunt of everything. The loneliness part does make you a stronger leader in what you're doing. It makes you more resolute.

When you are trying something new, like I have done my conference, doing my show, and coaching people. If things not working out, that's very lonely because a lot of people don't know the effort that you have put into it. I know everybody reading, I'm preaching to the choir here but your heart and soul have gone into that. You have sacrificed time with your family, your life, your health, and your wealth in order to reach your goal.

People see a failure or see something that is only the tip of the iceberg. Not everything underneath that is truly your heart and soul that you have put into it. That part can be very lonely. It's people to not understand what you were trying to do and the good that you were trying to do. That part is hard and also negative. Being in public or putting yourself out there.

For me, what I do is public. You expose yourself to people's thoughts and opinions. Again, they don't know everything that's gone into whatever they are seeing that one tweet, that one show episode, or that one conference. That part is hard but you can't be focused on that because you have to keep moving forward. Moving forward in your goal and what you are trying to accomplish and continuing to excel.

That part for me the loneliness. I try to cope with the things that people I surround myself with. Helping lift me up when I am lonely to realize, “This didn't pan out or you are worn out.” Those types of things. It's the people around you and the things you do to cope with that. Me, exercise is important and getting outside. A lot of the work I do is like this in front of a computer. It's important for me each day to get sunshine and be outside of my bubble to realize there are so much other things in life. This is one aspect of my life. I try not to let my identity get wrapped up in my business and that helps with the loneliness.

I love that you pulled in the protector aspect of loneliness. I never thought about that. Sometimes we as the shepherds, mama bears, or papa bears, I never thought about that but you are protective. As you said, not just your team but your audience and who are probably getting a lot of weird things. That's difficult when you hear people telling them falsities or things that are not going to pan out.

You are very pragmatic about it and I appreciate that. For our readers out there, if you haven't a candidate, or for leaders out there, if you are dealing with the negativity, you feel alone because you failed. It happens to the best of us and as Lacey said, it's par for the course. Be aware of it and surround yourself back with the people that are going to get you back on track because if you are not dealing with the negativity, the failure, and the protector role, then you are probably not truly leading.

If you are dealing with it like Lacey said, I love that she says it's part of the course. I love that you talked about when you put yourself out there. Here we are on the show and you are giving advice and stuff like that. There's always something that has to sit back there and critique you. It is not negativity but it is. It's isolating but you got to push through that. It's nothing that any other great person doesn't deal with when your voice is out there. There's always going to be the little dissenters or snipers and you got to press on from that.

I think of my business as my house, especially the community that I serve. I serve the military community as it relates to money. There are a lot of predators. I don't let anybody in my home around my family. I do feel protective, especially as it relates to money. That's important to me to be a good advocate. I can't police the world. I also have to come to terms with that I'm not superwoman but I do try to be mindful about what I'm doing and the messaging that I'm putting out and who I'm surrounding myself with.

I love that vigilance and it's never-ending. If you think every day something else will pop up, it's the world we live in and it's human nature. I love that you are always in the eye for that. I had never heard of that aspect when it comes to loneliness but that's a beautiful way to put it. You talked about getting outside, exercising your health, and stuff like that. How do you combat weariness? You do have a lot of responsibilities on you and leaders, we carry a lot of weight even though we have people that help us. How do you combat weariness?

This is something I picked up as a military child and as a military spouse. I can't always have a pity party for myself. I am the leader of my children and the leader of my business. I put a limit on my pity parties. The limit is 24 hours. When something negative happens to me, sad, lonely, or all those things, I put a time limit on it, which is helpful. It gives me time to process and cope with whatever has happened to me.

Military Money Show: Put a limit on my pity parties.

That gives me strength to be like, “I handled it. Now it's time to get back up and get back on task.” Having that mindset of trying to find the positive. Again, not trying to push down or smother what you are going through. It is exhausting. There's always a problem but to me that's life. It's not a question of if, it's, or when, how much it's going to cost you in time, money, your emotions, or those type of things. That's important that I do anticipate those things and being protective of the environment that I'm in.

My mind and my physical health help combat that weariness because if I'm not eating right or not taking care of myself physically, then it does wear me down very quickly. I don't have the energy to cope with challenges or opportunities because you could be getting great things happening to me but it's wearing you out. All the hard work is starting to pay off and you have these opportunities. It could be positive or negative.

Taking care of yourself and having a plan. Having systems in place of how are you going to handle whatever is thrown at you will help with the weariness. Also, too, knowing that I'm not special. I may be unique. There's only one Lacey but I'm not special. All of these things happen to other business owners and keeping things in perspective is important to me to handle the weariness.

That should be your book, The 24-Hour Pity Party. I love that because there's good weariness like deployments. You put everything but then there's bad weariness and that rumination, frustration, exhaustion, and self-doubt. Those are all self-imposed emotions. Your body will catch a disease of the mind quicker than anything else. I love that you brought it up. Deal with it. It hurts. We are human. We have emotions but then you got to draw that.

I love that you put that hard stop because too many times, people are still dealing with a failure from years or decades ago and it is they cannot lift their heads up and move forward. They can't run with a baton because they are dragging this anchor behind them. You talked about contingency planning. We learned that in the military too. If it goes wrong and it's probably going to go wrong, that's okay. We learned a lot of good things in the military. There's always something else. You don't end the battle because something went wrong. You go back, you figure it out, and you get right back in there.

That's important. Over the process too, that it's again, that you are not unique. I won't be the first person this happened to and I won't be the last person this happened to. That helps combat the weariness and the letting it go that this was something that happened. I'm going to take the lesson learned and move forward. That's how I try to deal with the weariness, as having a good mindset moving into it.

Military Money Show: To deal with the weariness is having a good mindset moving into it.

Since this is my dad's stuff, the price of leadership, I will give you the line he would always tell me. Every time, I will be like, “This happened or I'm upset about this or can you believe this did this?” He'd look at me and say, “Is it anything worse than what happened to Jesus?” I'm like, “Oh.” It’s somewhat to what you said.

I will put it in perspective.

I'm like, “You did not throw that card.” I didn't ever pity partied him because it's like there are people that have been through a gazillion time stuff worse than me. Let's move on. He would always throw that Jesus card in there and that would shut the pity party down pretty quick.

My grandma always says, “If we all got together and put our problems on the table and we saw everybody else's. We probably pick ours up and turn around and leave the room.”

No kidding, isn't that the truth? Think about that. That's very sound wisdom. Loneliness and weariness. The next price that he talked about was abandonment. Typically, abandonment has this negative connotation. You are abandoning your job, your marriage, your pets, and your fear of abandonment. My father's speech talked about abandonment as stopping what you like and want to think about and do in favor of what you ought and need to do.

It's more of this pruning away. Abandoning what is not your highest purpose and focusing on what you need to. With all these different things and you are an entrepreneur. You are in the creative space and wealth is always growing and looking at different things. It's a changing industry. How do you stay tightly focused on your message, your brand, and what you want to do for your audience?

Going back to the point that who I serve is very much like family. I grew up in the military. I served, my husband and my siblings. That is important to me. I am authentic in that. I do want to help people improve their financial lives. That is my compass. That's my North Star. Also, my morals and values are who I am. In business, it's been very helpful many times, the things I'm not going to do more than what I am going to do is that I'm not comfortable with that. That is not going to help my community. That's going to help you. Knowing that I am trying to help my community, that's very helpful, and not being tempted by money.

I say a prayer all the time to never get greedy. That when it's right, it will come but I need to stay with my values and what I'm trying to do to help people. I try not to look around at other people. That is also very helpful. I'm happy for my peers or people around me that have more success, more money, or whatever it is that's not the path for me.

I feel like cutting my losses. To me, that's what abandonment is. The things that are dragging me down, are helping me towards the path that I'm supposed to be on. That's helpful. Sometimes that's hard to let go of the things you have worked so hard on, whether that be my podcast or my coaching business. Those types of things but I feel like it naturally starts to work itself out the path that you are supposed to be on and where your zone of genius is.

That's how I try to look at that as abandonment. Things I have had to let go of that this has moved me forward in an area that I love. That I get excited about versus handling the things that maybe I'm not as passionate about those things. I always think this is not forever. This is for now. There are things that I wish I could do better or that I could give more attention to.

For now, I need to focus and knock this one thing out of the park, then I can leap to the next lily pad and handle that one. Knock it out of the park, then move to the next one. To me, staying focused that way is very helpful because I do want to do well. I want to deliver well and what I'm trying to do and that helps let go of some things.

I love that you talked about sunken costs. One of my favorite book titles is Sacred Cows Make the Best Burgers. It's all about, there are times when you are going to have to look at something. Maybe for a season or you work so hard but throwing more money or time on it, it's not good. Knowing when to hold them and when to fold them.

I love that you talked about the parking lot mentality because we can juggle a lot of things so we have a lot of great ideas. I love it where you talked about, “No, I stay on this point. I finish this.” That other one, I always tell, “I'm going to put this in this parking lot here.” I have ten things I'm working on. The parking lot I'm in now, I have to finish this and I get calls all the time as I'm sure you do.

Have you thought about this? Yes, but I cannot spend any energy on this now because otherwise, I'm never going to get this one thing that I'm supposed to be getting done. I love that you talked about how you get focused on it. You are so grounded in who you are and who you want to serve. Your virtues and values keep you from getting pulled into areas of costly mistakes or even a six-month period looking at something or partnering with the wrong person. That will help you avoid a lot of the pitfalls that so many of us have made.

I try to think about it. In the military, I give no ground. All the things I have worked hard on, if I'm going to take on a new project, I give no ground on the things that are already built. That’s important. There needs to be systems and structures in place. Those run smoothly and I don't give any ground up while I'm working on this new thing. Where you put your energy is important. Again, it might not work out but if you are ready to move forward and give that thing a shot, give no ground in the other areas.

Can you unpack that a little bit more? I have never heard that before. Give no ground. Unpack that more because that's fascinating. I want to make sure I understand it.

For me, my business and my brand, are at the core of what I do, I help the military community with money but I do that in many different ways. I have found that to reach more people and to help more people, I have had to evolve my business in how I earn money. In the beginning, it was a coaching business then I started a show so I don't want to give ground on my coaching business.

That needs to have a good structure in place, so I have a system for every aspect of my business, which may seem not sexy but, to me, it is because those are the things that make you look good. It’s the systems that you have behind doors. I have a system to intake at this point all my business and my financial coaching clients then I could focus on my podcast. I had to create a system for my podcast because I don't want a very large team.

To me, that's more management. That's more leadership. Now, my goal is to help as many military people with money. I'm very mindful of that. Also, having the right people that I surround myself with and I give my energy to. Creating the podcast, I have to have a system for that. How am I going to intake clients or guests? How am I going to produce this and promote it? How am I going to make money off of this? I give no ground on my coaching that I could continue to do that while I built the podcast and then having the podcast.

More people doing outreach and speaking. I'm not giving ground on either my coaching business or my podcast but now I'm going to take on new opportunities because I have systems and structures in place. Those don't give any ground. Moving into creating MilMoneyCon, which may have seemed like something I shouldn't take on but to me, people kept coming for help. I wanted to provide a solution.

It ultimately helps service members with their money if there's a stronger financial force that serves them. Me, creating a conference, bringing those people together and continuing their education, networking, and empowering them leads to my main mission. I can't give ground on all those other things while I build the conference and so having systems and structures in place helps me give no ground.

I love that you said that this is what you are doing but you do it in many different ways. You had these tentacles coming down but everything is delineated. That's your second book, Give No Ground. I love that. The structure is sexy. I tell it because otherwise, the wing in it is just cavalier. It's like, “No, I'm in operations. I'm a project manager at heart.” I love processes because then you know what's going on. Our entrepreneurs or people that are transitioning into entrepreneurship. If you come from that background where you like structure and that right brain stuff or that left brain stuff, do what Lacey said. Make sure you are building stuff that fits nicely into it.

I love that you hit on that because a lot of times with entrepreneurs, people have different things that they are interested in. They all weave up into the same desire or purpose but they get very dichotomous about, “I can only focus on this.” I'm like, “Really?” Like you with the conference. I know you said, “Maybe I shouldn't have done this.” Yet in doing it, you created a synergy where your main goal was able to be multiplied and other speakers and resources were brought in. It amplified what you were trying to do. That's the true sweet spot.

Thank you. I learned a lot about building a business. When I started the conference, I was more prepared for failure, which made it a lot easier to take that leap because I'm not embarrassed by that anymore. Not that it's fun. Don't get me wrong. Going back to the 24-hour pity party. Knowing what my fallback position is and how I'm going to handle that and being smart about taking a calculated risk and then getting the mentorship. Also, very clear on that. If I want to do this, I need to align myself with people that have put on events and conferences that can support me and be a good sounding board.

I love to be prepared for failure. Charles, again, who wrote this speech was quite humorous. He was like, “I don't like to fail, but if you don't learn to laugh at your problems, you are never even going to be in the ring of the game,” because you have to be able to like, not self-deprecating but laugh, smile, own it, and move on and dust off the failure and get going on. Otherwise, if you are stepping out at anything because everybody is sitting back waiting for somebody else to do it. I love that you said that be prepared for failure and it doesn't hold you back at all.

My little brother always says to me, “If it was so easy, everybody would be doing it.” It's not. That is my mantra too, and I tell myself that I'm not the first. I won't be the last. Any negative things that happen but also the positive things. I don't want to wrap my identity around being a podcaster or financial coach. There are many aspects to me. I don't want to then lose that then impact me in a negative way. I do try to keep perspective about whatever is happening to me.

Loneliness, awareness, abandonment, and the last point my father talked about was vision. We have heard in the good book, Proverbs, where there is no vision that the people fail. Sometimes when I would hear vision as a young leader, I'm like, “I'm more practical. I'm more tactical. I'm not this big Nostradamus type of person.”

My father always taught me, “Tracey, vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it.” It was always this attraction plus action equals vision. Otherwise, you are in this blue sky land. Lacey, can you unpack what vision means for you? How do you hone it? Do you have a vision board? Do you go away for a retreat? Do you have strategic planning? How do you do it?

Vision is so important in entrepreneurship and that is the spark that ignites everything to why you are doing this thing. Again, it's not easy. Not everybody wants to do it. For many people, it's foreign. I didn't come from a family of big entrepreneurs. I come from a family of military service. Going into entrepreneurship was a foreign concept to me and a lot of learning. In hindsight, looking back, a business is like your imaginary friend. In the beginning, only you see it.

You are trying to describe this thing to the people that you love and your friends. You might be putting some money into your imaginary friend. It's so hard for other people to see your vision and that's the job of an entrepreneur is to get this out of your head and make it a reality. It's a real boy like Pinocchio. We have built this thing and now it is walking and talking. Now other people can see it. That's a good perspective to have.

It is like, “In the beginning, you are not going to get it. I don't need to try to explain it. I know what I need to do in order to make this thing happen. I have got to start creating the steps to make it happen or figuring out how to make it happen.” It is something you are seeing or feeling. You are motivated like this attraction that you mentioned. It's the driving force and it's these steps to make it a reality then people believe, and then people get behind you. I don't fault people for that because they didn't see it like I did and vice versa.

If somebody came to me and as like, “We are going to start this thing called Google.” I'd be like, “That's a crazy name. Why would we need that?” It's the beginning. Only you see your vision. That's a healthy perspective to have in that and it's so important to go after it. The way I deal with vision is I try to get out. All the things we talked about, systems, and structures are important. Most importantly, it leaves room for you to be creative and follow your passions or those sparks to be like, “I have some time. This system is working in this part of my business. Now, I can daydream.”

A lot of it comes to me when I'm running or I'm outside. I keep my phone on me. I will be running and coming up with something that's going to be part of a presentation. I will stop running and I will type that into my notes so I have that then I keep running. I let my mind go where it wants to go because that is the space that I have made for it to happen. If you max yourself out, stress yourself out, and don't have a plan for how you are going to cope in business, it’s stifling to your vision.

Vision is a future thing. As you said, I love that you called it daydreaming because that is something that we have to allow ourselves to think outside the box. I also love that you said a business is like your imaginary friend. Sometimes, we have to load money on our imaginary friends. To our readers out there, if you are making the leap, as I said, I like Lacey came from the military to Fortune 100, so bureaucracy, paycheck, and all of a sudden, you are like, “Whoa.” I can remember not everybody does want to do it but there are going to be times and I say this to the readers out there, if you are having to write a check to your imaginary friend, it's okay.

Please don't think you failed because hopefully, you have enough saved up. If you don't, there have been many times when I pulled out my checkbook and said, “We have to cover expenses.” It's what you do in the beginning because you are pouring everything of yours but it's your baby. That's what you do. I'm glad you brought that up because we don't talk about that. I'm not making ends meet. I have to go back and take a job again.

Maybe but let's look at this because very few people are in their first year out, what is it? The first year your business sleeps then it creeps then it leaps. It takes time to build that book of business, especially in coaching or financial planning. If you stick with it and build that with speaking, writing, podcasting, or with everything, it takes time.

It does. I didn't realize how much time it would take but now, I'm enjoying that climb. Everything that I'm doing, I'm not in a rush because I am enjoying what I'm doing. I am enjoying helping other people and having a positive impact. It goes back to leadership, which is that what I do has a positive impact on people. The stronger I am, the more work I do or more importantly, the more productive work that I do. Not just work for work's sake but what I accomplish can do more toward my mission and the people I'm serving. That's important.

Also, too, when you are building this thing that's your imaginary friends. Surround yourself with people that believe and those are fellow entrepreneurs. People that have been there. They are not going to laugh because they have a bunch of imaginary friends lined up in addition to the one that they already built. They have that mindset and so they understand. They are going to say, “It's okay. This thing didn't work out. Get up again. Do it again.” If that didn't work out, get up and do it again. They are going to be like, “Stay positive.” They understand the struggle and the mental capacity and fortitude it takes to build a business.

Understand the struggle and the mental capacity and fortitude it takes to build a business.

I appreciate you saying that. I love that you are in the thick of it because as you are coaching, I always think it's good. People would say to me, “Can you tell us how you got successful?” I always say, “When I do, I will come back and check it and let you know what it took.” How do you measure this? I thank God that I could do what I love, can pay my bills, have some leftovers to give away, and save and how do we measure this? I may not be wealthy but my life is rich. I love that you are still in this. When you are dealing with people because you get to a point where you are just so successful. It's like, “What if you would have been on the ground floor at Google? What if you would be worth $500 billion?”

There are people like that but the rest of us are in the thick of it that want to retire well. I love that you are still in it because they can look at you and you can tell them, “You will get there.” I may be one lap around ahead of you. I used to be sensitive about that. Am I successful enough to talk about this? If you are one step ahead, you need to share with people because they need to know. They may be wanting to quit on that step. You need to do and I love that you are authentic about that.

I can't even count the number of times I have wanted to quit but I'm so stubborn. When you look back and like, “All the work I have put in.” It's like, no. Again, I'm giving no ground.

Charles would say that too and he's like, “You can want to quit all you want, just don't do it.” He goes, “I thought about quitting Monday or Tuesday.” He goes, “On Wednesday, I thought of a reason I never even thought of before to quit but I don't do it.” Since then, he's made millions of dollars wanting to quit but he didn't do it. Lacey, thank you for that. We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. This is the leadership show and anything else that we haven't touched on that you would like to share with our readers?

You never know as a leader the impact that you have. When I look back at some of the amazing leaders that have impacted my life, I always think I should look them up because they have no idea that one little thing that they did for me set an example that I'm now using as a leader myself. That's something to remember. All of the things you are doing to run your business and make an opportunity, make things happen are the people around you that you are impacting that see you trying. Seeing you not quit, get back up after failure, and not let it go to your head when you have a major opportunity to have a little bit of success. That's important to remember the positive impact you have on others.

Remember the positive impact you have on others.

How do people get in touch with you?

The best way is at LaceyLangford.com or you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Either of those is wonderful or you could check out MilMoneyCon.com.

Tell us about your podcast.

The Military Money Show is to help the military community make, save, and invest money wisely, which is more focused on having guests talk about those topics. Also, I do solo shows but it's trying to help people get to where they want to be with money and have confidence in what they are doing.

Military Money Show: The military money show is to help the military community make, save and invest money wisely.

I know probably at least a third to maybe half of our audience is prior military, active duty military, or has a family member that's in the military. Can they reach out to you as far as if they are looking to make a transition or for some coaching advisement on not being afraid of money?

LaceyLangford.com has all the information about my coaching.

I can't thank you enough. It was so wonderful to know your thoughts. You inspired me. You made me laugh and jot down a whole bunch of scribbles. I thank you for all you are doing. I thank you that you saw a space that needed to be done that you are so committed to what you are doing and that you are fierce and you are not giving up. That is leadership in its purest form.

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate that and the kind words.

You are welcome. I look forward to serving with you on the committee too. Lots of great times ahead.

I'm looking forward to that.

To our readers out there, we want to thank you so much for tuning in. If you would do us the honor of a five-star review, we'd be so thankful. Be sure and hit the subscribe button and share this with somebody that you think may be interested in it. Also, be sure and connect with Lacey. Remember, my father always said that you are going to be the same person years from now that you are now, except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. You have a tremendous individual to connect with Ms. Lacey here. I want to thank you all for continuing to pay the price of leadership. Have a tremendous rest of your day. Bye-bye.

Important Links

• Military Money Show

• MilMoneyCon

• American College of Financial Services

• Center for Military and Veterans Affairs

• Sacred Cows Make the Best Burgers

• LaceyLangford.com

• LinkedIn – Lacey Langford

About Lacey Langford

Lacey Langford, AFC®, is a financial coach, veteran, and military spouse who changes people’s mindset from being fearful of money to having control and confidence with it. She’s an Accredited Financial Counselor® with over 15 years of financial planning, counseling, and coaching experience. Lacey’s the founder and CEO of the Military Money Show, a podcast dedicated to helping the military community make, save, and invest money wisely, and MilMoneyCon, an annual conference for financial professionals united by military service.

Episode 167 - Maj Gen John Gronski

Leadership knows no bounds of age or rank; it's the unwavering commitment to paying the price that sets true leaders apart. Welcome to another captivating episode! In this eye-opening conversation, we delve deep into the world of leadership, inviting leaders from various backgrounds to share their invaluable insights. Today, we sit down with a true titan of leadership—Major General John Gronski, a retired military veteran and an extraordinary expert in the field. Major General Gronski pulls the curtain behind his illustrious career, sharing an intimate understanding of the sacrifices and dedication required to embody true leadership. He explores the multifaceted aspects of what it means to pay the price of leadership, regardless of age or career stage. Major General Gronski's journey, spanning from his beginnings in the military to his advancement up the ranks, is bound to enrapture and motivate audiences of every kind. Tune in now and learn what it truly means to pay the price of leadership.

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Maj Gen John Gronski

I am incredibly excited to bring to you a veteran, a retired general, and an amazing leadership expert, Major General John Gronski. John, welcome.

It's great to be here. Thank you for inviting me to be part of your show.

Let me tell you a little bit about Major General Gronski. He is retired from the US Army. Thank you for your service. He's the CEO of Leader Grove, LLC, which is a leadership consulting firm. He's also the author of two books, The Ride of Our Lives, which we are going to talk more about that, and Iron-Sharpened Leadership, as well as an international speaker. I connected with the tremendous John Gronski through the tremendous Bill Forrester. As my father said, it's all about the people you meet and the books you read. Why I love our tremendous tribe is that we are all together. Now you have met John, you can meet with him. A lot of you know Bill.

Without further ado, we are going to go ahead and get started on my father's speech that he gave many decades ago called The Price of Leadership. It was tough. It was jubilant, but it was also tough. In it, he talks about four key tenants that every leader is going to have to be committed to paying to truly be a leader.

The first price that he talks about is loneliness. We have all heard that. Lonely is the head that wears the crown. It's lonely at the top. I'm so excited to hear from a general about this topic. Can you explain what loneliness meant to you throughout your life, maybe a time when you were in a season of it? What words of wisdom would you give our audience if they are in a season of loneliness?

It's interesting, that the whole concept of loneliness when it comes to leadership. To a degree, it's correct. I recall back my time in periods of senior leadership commanding a brigade in combat in Ramadi, Iraq, commanding the 28th Infantry Division, which was 15,000 soldiers. I found that you still have to build a team of trusted advisors around you. It may not even be somebody from your organization, but you have got to reach out and find peer groups because it's important to be able to bounce ideas across people.

For example, when I was a division commander, there were other division commanders. There were eighteen army divisions between Active Component and National Guard. Reaching out to that group of peers and being able to have a professional dialogue with them. Let them know the challenges I was facing, listened a little bit about the challenges they were facing, and being able to help each other work through various issues. For leaders out there who are in a position where they figure, "There's not anybody in my organization I could talk to because it doesn't seem safe or doesn't seem appropriate." You have got to find people outside of your organization if you need to. That'd be my thought on it.

Those of us that have been in the military camaraderie still can call each other and think about the times we had together, share it with one another, and still go back to that. When did you retire? When did you depart from the military?

I retired from the Army in 2019. During the last three years of my career, I was one of the Deputy Commanding Generals at US Army Europe. It's funny because I was the oldest soldier in US Army Europe. I was 63 years old when I retired. I got my commission in ‘78, and stayed with it for over 40 years, retiring in 2019. That's the other thing I want to mention about loneliness. When I was a division commander, brigade commander before that, and then Deputy Commanding General over at US Army Europe, I always had a team around me. I always had people that we could talk about issues.

I then retire in 2019, no more team. I had to figure out what am I going to do here. I started to put together my team of trusted advisors from people that I network with within the Philadelphia area and other parts of Pennsylvania and beyond. It's important that if you step away from a formal leadership position, you have still got to find your quasi-board of directors so you could gain insight from them, and bounce ideas off them. That's so important.

I'm so glad you said that. That's why I asked that because we do have built-in structure, rank, and command. You worry about fraternization, but you keep the line of demarcation and keep it very professional. When I came out too, I separated several years ago, but then when I left corporate America years ago, again, when you become a solopreneur and entrepreneur, that's very lonely too.

You have to seek out and find those people that you can be a sounding board and share things with because typically, as a family-run business, you can't do it to family. That's so important that you realize that. To the readers out there, you have got to have those people that you can share with. I know we have our faith. Yes, prayer trumps all, but we still are meant to edify, exhort, and to iron-sharpen leadership and iron-sharpen each other too.

The other thing I found when I left the military and spent years in the military, I had a purpose. After retiring, I was floundering a little bit. It's important that no matter what phase you are in or what stage of your life you are in, you have got to determine what your purpose is. I do think purpose changes based on the stage and phase that you are in. That's exactly what I did in order to get back on a successful path or productive path. I had to figure out what my purpose was in life.

What I came up with is my purpose to help leaders who want to improve become better leaders. That's my stated purpose. That's what I believe in. That's what gets me out of bed in the morning. That's what keeps me working out at the gym. That's what keeps me doing some self-study and trying to continue to learn and grow. It's that purpose that helps me do all of those things. For your readers out there, they’ve got to come to grips with what your purpose is based on your stage of life.

I love the fact that you brought that up to our readers because that will ring true. I even had people that I knew in the military that did twenty, and that was it. You do what you want to do because they were "retired” in their early-40s. I'm thinking, "Okay. If that works for you." For readers of this show, we want to finish the race strong. I want to hear and vision how you dialed that in because you would have been perfectly justified.

I know a lot of people that have done their time, they have required their wealth, and now they are going to enjoy life. Nothing wrong with that, but most of our readers like you, without a purpose, you just feel adrift. I appreciate it out there. A lot of people are like, "I want to work myself out of a job," but then you got to find another one because otherwise, it's like, "What do you do with your time?" Thank you for that.

It may not even be a "job." It might be some type of volunteer effort that you put your time into, but you have got to do something to serve others. Whether it's paid or volunteer, you have got to look at serving others and just finding fulfillment in that.

The next topic my father talked about is weariness. If you are out there leading people and being there for people, you have got to be the strongest, the most refreshed, the most clear thinker, the best critical thinker, and the best decision-maker. Also, as a leader, you have to be there to meet each of your followers where they are, and that can wear you down and make you tired. How do you combat weariness?

I love this particular topic because I think back to the time back in 2005, when I was taking a brigade of 5,000 soldiers and Marines into Ramadi, Iraq, which was a very violent and dangerous place at that time, very chaotic. Some mentors told me before going over there that even when you are in combat, there are certain things you have got to do. You have got to take time to do some physical training. They recommended getting a fictional novel and reading a fictional novel to take your mind off the tactics, techniques, and procedures that you are generally faced with on a day-to-day basis in a situation like that. You have got to make sure that your diet is proper. You have got to maintain a proper diet.

I believed in all of those things that these mentors were telling me, and then I got there in Ramadi, and I didn't do any of that. It was a big mistake. I look back on that as a mistake I made. I ended up not taking any time off at all. I might have, on average, taken maybe four hours off a week somehow. I didn't read anything except the operational things that I needed to read in accordance with the mission that we had. I didn't read any fictional books. I'm a guy who likes to work out. I'm a guy who likes to engage in physical training. I cut that out of my regimen for the entire year. I was there.

I did a lot of battlefield circulation. It was on the go a lot. It came down to where I was eating one meal a day. All of this advice I got from mentors, I disregarded it. At the end of that year, and by the way, all of our soldiers had an opportunity to go back home at some point in time for two weeks. I decided I wasn't going to do that. It wore me down. As I look back on that, perhaps I didn't make the best decisions all the time that I maybe could have made if I followed the advice of these mentors.

What taught me at the end of the day and, by the way, most of the things I learn are from mistakes I made rather than successes I have had. I learned the importance of a leader needing to take care of themself. I talk a lot about leaders having to care more for their followers than they care for themself. I truly believe that. At the same time, a leader still needs to care for themselves because if you don't care for yourself as a leader, it's pretty hard to be able to provide the leadership, vision, and guidance that your followers need from you. I learned that lesson, and I like to pass that on to people whenever I have the opportunity.

Price of Leadership: If you don't care for yourself, it's pretty hard to be able to provide the leadership, vision, and guidance that your followers need from you.

I appreciate that you hit on the physical aspect because when we get busy, I will do the same thing. I'm eating well. I'm focused. My days are disciplined. I’ve got dogs now, so I'm walking 3 miles a day. I'm running 2 miles a day. If I don't make that time moving around, I'm cranky. I'm not sleeping well. I'm like, "It’s because you are not working out." Go and work out.

Even though I don't have to do it to maintain anything external, I have to do it for the internal stuff. I appreciate you saying that because that's the first thing. I'm like, "I'm busy because this book comes out in October. This book comes out in January." That's the first thing that gets pushed off. I appreciate that for weariness. You think, "I can't work out. I'm tired." You might be tired because you are not working out.

I'm talking about physical fitness, and I know you feel the same way. There are other elements of fitness. There's spiritual fitness, mental fitness, and emotional fitness. You have got to take care of yourself in all those different ways. That's why my mentors recommended, "Get a fictional book and read a fictional book." Speaking of building resiliency in yourself, one of the best ways to build up resiliency is by reading fiction. It allows your mind to be creative and imaginative. To imagine things through reading rather than through watching. All of those elements of fitness are very important.

It's interesting you said that too because when I was deployed for the first Gulf War back in 1991, I read more fiction books during that nine-month deployment than I have in my entire life. I'm glad you said that because I don't touch fiction unless it's allegorical fiction like C.S. Lewis or The Pilgrim's Progress, which is also beautiful, but I need to grab some fiction. To let my mind off of the "What am I learning? What am I applying?" I can remember during the Gulf War, we would get novels and I read everything Leon Uris wrote. It was these great novels. I'm glad that you brought that up, the purpose of fiction.

The next topic my father talked about was abandonment. As a little girl, I watched him and thought he was the most successful person. Still do. I have ever met. I remember one day he told me, " I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success." I was like, "I don't even understand how that computes." He said, "I need to focus on abandonment. I need to stop doing what I want and like to do in favor of what I ought and need to do." It was almost this hyper-pruning and singular focus. I know in the military, we get our orders but still, there are other things as a leader that come and occupy your space and time. How do you deal with abandonment, and how do you maintain your focus and discipline?

Self-discipline is extremely important. When you engage in self-discipline by doing the things you know you need to do in order to serve others and be fulfilled in your life. It doesn't take your freedom away. It provides you with more freedom. The more self-disciplined you are at doing the things you need to do, it provides you options in life. Looking back on it, if you have the self-discipline as a younger person to study what you need to study, to work out when you need to work out, to have the self-discipline to engage in volunteer efforts to help others. When you do all of those things, you build networks, relationships, a stronger mind, and a stronger body. That provides you with more options.

Price of Leadership: When you engage in self-discipline by doing the things you know you need to do in order to serve others, it actually doesn't take your freedom away. In fact, it provides you with more freedom.

Self-discipline sets you free rather than causing you to be shackled or captured. Some people think that. Some people think that if they engage in things that they have to do because people say that's the right thing to do, it takes their freedom away. It's the opposite. It provides you with more freedom because you get more options put in your path.

It's your habits, and your habits will determine everything. If you have good habits, you have good results. I can remember growing up in the '70s and '80s where it was like, "Do whatever makes you feel good." I'm thinking, "Yeah, but I need to stay out of jail. I need to earn a living. I need not to get court marshaled." It's strange. You then look at it and go, "That's not what life is about." Life is not all about me and fulfilling my fleshly desires. As you said, you want to reward yourself, but we are more than animals going off of impulses and urges.

Thoughts are so important. We are hardwired to get negative thoughts into our heads. That's a natural thing because it's some type of protective impulse that we have through evolution. It's important when we have a negative thought coming into our head to do what we could do to replace it with a positive thought. We are going to talk about vision, but it comes into the visualization of what you see your future looking like and what steps you need to take in order to reach that ultimate goal or ultimate vision that you have. There are so many elements of abandonment in what we talked about.

That's truly self-discipline. My dad would always say there's miserable miserable and happy miserable. Everybody still has to fight the same battles. "I don't like cold calls. I want to sleep in. I have these negative thoughts." The new common denominator of success is that the only difference between failure and success is that success is a habit of doing things that failures don't want to do. There's this weird thing that you are born like this super disciplined person. No, it's part of our human nature. There are certain things we like and don't like to do, but the beauty of discipline is the longer you do it, the easier and the more it becomes a part of you. Negative thoughts. No. Capturing that one. I'm getting that out.

You talk about building things with discipline. Networks, wealth, and health. I learned to be a gym rat trying out to get into a military academy. Those are habits that I have done my whole life. I have a sister who's 70 and completely reclaimed her health at 70. You can do it, but a lot of these things you start doing now and the dividends paid in the decades to come.

I just came across a pretty good quote. I forget who said it, but the quote went something like this, "If you want to do something, you will find a way. If you don't want to do it, you are going to find an excuse." There are plenty of excuses that could go through our minds. We have got to fend off those excuses and find a way to say yes to doing the right thing rather than let an excuse control our mind, which controls our body.

If you really want to do something, you'll find a way. And if you don't want to do it, you're going to find an excuse.

You hit on the thought thing, which is where it all starts. Otherwise, we are operating from our emotions, which puts us on the level of animals who have a central nervous system and they have impulses. What differentiates us is the frontal lobe cortex, the mind. We have a consciousness, and we have the ability to will, set goals, and relate. I found that people are like, "Live and let live." In a certain sense, I do agree with that. If you are not bringing your best every day, it takes work and discipline to find out and unpack who you are.

I'm still unpacking that. Every day I find another test, and I'm like, "That's why I do the things I do. It’s what I want, not what my dad wanted or not what the military wanted." We had our identity in the military, and now we are civilians. Who are we? What is our self-worth? It isn't based on what we do. Once we know that, then we can figure out how to get it. I find that it's such a long introspective but wonderful process.

As you said, it's a hard process, but the more you put in the work upfront, that's where you get the motivation and the self-discipline. Until you answer those questions, you don't know what to be disciplined towards because you are drifting, you are pretending, or you haven't done the work to figure out, "I write my orders now. What orders am I going to write for John or Tracey?"

You brought up a good point. It doesn't matter what age you are. Whether you are 18 or 88 years old, you can get started at any time to get those correct thoughts into your head so you could move forward no matter where you are in life.

We did loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. Now, we are going to talk about vision. Sometimes, when I was in the military, I'm like, "Vision? Just tell me what to do. Give my orders." It's more strategic. I never drew that, but my father was like, "Vision is seeing what needs to be done and doing it." I'm like, "Very practical." What does vision mean to you? You talked a little bit about how you needed to find your purpose, but how do you hone in on that vision that keeps you moving forward?

When I think back on my positions of leadership in the military, I have found that followers expect a leader to communicate that vision. We talk about a shared vision. When you are talking about an organizational vision, a lot of times, we talk about it as a shared vision. What that means to me is a leader in an organization needs to go around and talk to the people within that organization and ask people, "Where do you want to see this organization 5 or 10 years from now? What would make you proud about how this organization moves forward?"

Followers expect a leader to communicate their vision.

I did that when I was brigade commander of a brigade that I commanded to the one I took combat. I was shocked. I talked to privates that had six months in the Army. I talked to majors who had 13 and 14 years in the Army, and everybody in between. I found that a lot of what they were saying about a vision was very similar to one another. I was taken by that because I didn't think there would be such a commonality between visions of people of different experience levels.

Creating a shared vision as a leader is important. My position in life now, working as a leadership consultant, a trainer, a speaker, and an author, I don't have that team around me as we talked about before. That's where that purpose helped me create a vision. What vision comes down to, and I think your dad was exactly right. What picture do you see in your future that you want to attain? Once you establish that vision for yourself, now you have got to put an action plan together in order to attain that vision.

I do think that positive energy has a lot to do with that. When I talk about positive energy, I talk about leaders being optimistic. When I talk about leaders being optimistic, I don't mean looking at life through rose-colored glasses, but believing that tomorrow is going to be better than today. Having an action plan to go along with that belief that tomorrow is going to be better than today. Whether that's self-belief or if you are leading an organization, you have got to get your followers to believe in the plan that you are outlined for them. That's my thoughts on vision.

Leaders being optimistic doesn’t mean looking at life through rose-colored glasses. It’s believing that tomorrow is going to be better than today. And then having an action plan to go along with that belief.

I love that you hit on two things. One, you have to communicate the vision. The vision starts with you, but then as you said, because I studied followership, you have to ask the followers like Jesus asked his disciples. "What's the word on the street? Who do you say I am?" No matter how much we think we have communicated it, if they are not coming with us or they haven't processed it the same way, and they are like, "We think you are Elijah or John the Baptist." It's like, “Where did that come from?” It wasn't until they dialed in.

Jesus didn't change his vision, but he took the time to ask his followers because it is a dance. The leader can't just be all vision because you can't drag the followers. Even if the followers are robust and strong, they still have to know where they are going. I love that you hit on both sides of that because that's what vision is. It's a shared enterprise. Somebody has to set it, and then you got to make sure everybody is all in with the mission.

You hit on a key point. Talk about communication. Communication, when it comes to leadership is not just about speaking. It's about listening. The listening has to come first. It's so important for leaders to take the time to listen to their followers as they are trying to create this shared vision that they then communicate to others. I think President Reagan was fantastic with this. When a leader communicates vision, they have to be very consistent in that vision. It can't be the vision of the week or the vision of the quarter. It's got to be the long-term vision for this organization. It's got to be consistently communicated.

If you don't communicate it consistently and if your vision doesn't stay consistent, people are going to become confused. They are going to start asking themselves, "What's the real priority here? What direction are we going in? Last week, the leader said we had to go left. This week, the leader is saying we have to go right. Now I'm confused." It's important that that vision is a consistent vision. I do think Reagan was a master at that. While he was president, his vision was the Soviet Union was not going to be here forever. The Soviet Union is going to collapse. That was a consistent message that he put out there. That's a great example for leaders to follow.

Price of Leadership: If you don't communicate it consistently, and if your vision doesn't stay consistent, people are going to become confused. And they're going to start asking themselves, what's the real priority here? 

That's why we did one of our little life-changing classics on him because he's Ronald Wilson Reagan is brilliant. I appreciate that. I needed to hear that. If there's one thing I struggle with, it's that I could have a vision for a minute. It's like, "Stop," because it's exhausting, it confuses people, and it's the one thing I struggle with. I appreciate your words.

To our other readers out there, take it from me. What do they say? When you work your fingers to the bone, all you get is boney fingers. We want to stay very focused and not the fear of missing out or the bright shiny thing like sometimes we entrepreneurs do. I appreciate that. We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. You have written a book called The Iron-Sharpened Leadership. I'd like to talk about that. Anything else on leadership that you would like to share with us?

I would like to say that Iron-Sharpened Leadership is based on Proverbs 27:17, "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another." That's the whole thought. At least what I get from that proverb is we as people have to look for mentors in our life. People that we could look up to and learn from. The learning never stops. At the same time, we have got to reach our hand down to other people who maybe aren't as strong as we are, as talented as we are, and be mentors to them and help them along the way as well. That's what iron sharpens iron means to me.

My book, Iron-Sharpened Leadership, is based on my leadership philosophy of character, competence, and resilience. I will briefly explain each one of those elements. When I talk about character, I'm talking about values, understanding what your core values are, and living by those values. I'm talking about cultivating trust. I'm talking about caring for your followers and caring for those you lead.

When I talk about competence, I'm not talking about technical or tactical competence. I'm talking about leader competence. I break that down to the ability to communicate well, the ability to provide a vision and a purpose to an organization, and the ability to make decisions with less-than-perfect information. Those are three important leader competencies.

In terms of resilience, I'm talking about having positive energy. Believing that tomorrow is going to be better than today and having an action plan going along with that. I'm talking about having the ability to move out of your comfort zone, taking chances, taking some risks, and surrounding yourself with people who aren't necessarily completely aligned with your way of thinking and doing that. Those are some of the things I talk about when I talk about character, competence, and resilience. Those are important aspects of being what I call an iron-sharpened leader.

Proverbs, in my humble opinion, is the greatest leadership book of all time. There are 31 chapters because you can read a chapter a day. It will tell you everything you need to know. That is how it's done. That is how we become the next-level version of our leadership selves. Also, I want you to talk to our readers about The Ride of Our Lives, the first book you wrote.

The Ride of Our Lives: Lessons on Life, Leadership, and Love

Back in 1983, I left active duty for a short period of time. I left active duty at Fort Lewis, Washington, in Washington State, Tacoma, Seattle Area. After working up there for a while, and my wife was a nurse, she was working too. We had a son. We have decided to move back to Northeastern Pennsylvania.

Since we had to move from the West Coast back to the East Coast, I suggested to my wife that we bicycle across the United States. That had been a dream of mine for years. I wanted to bicycle across the United States because of the challenge and adventure of it. In '83, my wife and I bicycle across the country with our son Steve. I pulled him across the United States in an orange bicycle trailer.

Three months on the road, on bicycles, all self-supported, which meant we had our gear. We had a 2-man backpacking tent, 2 sleeping bags, and a little 1 burner camping stove. The route we took was 4,500 miles. It was quite an adventure. It helped shape some of my leadership philosophy at that point making a trip like that.

I kept the journal through the course of that bicycle trip, and that journal sat in a shoebox for over many years. When I retired from the Army in 2019, I had a little bit of time on my hands, and I started to take the journal that was sitting in that shoebox and put words on paper because I wanted my children and my grandchildren to have a record of that trip. As I began to write, I thought to myself, "This is pretty interesting. It'd probably be a book that other people would like to read."

I published a book called The Ride of Our Lives. That book is about the 3 months and 4,500-mile adventure on our bicycles with our 15-month-old son across the United States. I have been getting a lot of great reviews and comments from people who have read the book. It's a feel-good story and a lot of leadership lessons in the story. The subtitle of The Ride of Our Lives is Lessons on Life, Leadership, and Love. That's what it took to be successful in that adventure of ours.

I can't wait. Thank you for the copy of it. I look forward to reading it. You guys are still married, right?

Yeah. We are going to be married for 43 years in September 2023. People say a trip like that is either going to destroy a marriage or strengthen the marriage. In our case, it's strengthened the marriage.

I can't wait to read it. I had to put that in there because of all you have done with your 40 years in the military and your wisdom when you were that young to take the time to do that. I can remember growing up '70s, it seemed like to a lot of people, that was a goal, to bicycle. My brother wanted to do it too. He never did, but I can remember it was one of those things, "Let's bike across America." You did it.

We didn't let our son stop us. Our son wasn't an obstacle. Our son was part of the adventure.

I can't wait to read it, and I can't wait to learn more, hear more, and have our readers connect with you. You are a speaker. Do you consult? What should our readers reach out to you?

I do a lot of speaking and leadership training for law enforcement. I also do a lot of speaking at industry shows. I do a lot of speaking for large companies that are having conferences. I do a lot of leadership training for companies as well. From law enforcement to civilian companies, I crossed that whole gamut. I also still do a little bit of work with the military.

I'm an Association of the United States Army Leadership Fellows, so I do go out to military units and provide leadership presentations to military units. I do that pro bono for military units. I'm also an executive coach. I do have several clients that I coach in terms of helping them continue on their leadership journey. That's what I do. I love doing it. I'm so passionate about it. I feel very fulfilled when I have those opportunities to speak to the groups that I mentioned.

Thank you for fulfilling us and sharing your wisdom. To our readers out there, make sure you connect with John. John, thank you so much for taking the time to share your decades of experience. What's next for you, and how are you continuing to take all of that and pour it into others? It's so tremendous.

I appreciate you taking the time to interview me. I very much enjoy the leadership messages that you put out. Thank you for doing that. I'm inspired by your messages. I want to thank you for allowing me to be a guest on your show. Thank you.

You couldn't be any more welcome. To our readers out there, thank you. The channel is growing and flowing. We love having you here. If you like what you read, please be sure and hit the subscribe button. If you would do us the honor of a review, that would be so tremendous. Also, please share this with other people. You know where John speaks and talks, share this with people that you think might be interested and need to hear this. People that are out there paying the price of leadership. Always remember, as my father said, “You are going to be the same person five years from now that you are today, except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read, so make them both tremendous.” Thanks so much, everybody. Have a tremendous rest of your day.

 Important Links

• Major General John Gronski

• Leader Grove, LLC

• The Ride of Our Lives

• Iron-Sharpened Leadership

• The Pilgrim'

• https://Store.LeaderGrove.com/

About John Gronski

Major General John Gronski (US Army, Retired) is CEO of Leader Grove, LLC, a leadership consulting firm. He is the author of two books, "The Ride of Our Lives" and "Iron-Sharpened Leadership" and an international speaker.

Episode 166 - Maria Brady - Leaders On Leadership

Choosing happiness is a personal journey. What works for one person may not work for another, so it's important to explore various strategies, listen to your intuition, and find the approaches that resonate most with you. In this episode, Maria Brady emulates positivity like a ray of sunshine being a Certified Energy Codes Coach. She emphasizes that everyone has the power to create their reality as long as we harness the power to create our reality, and by putting our attention to growth, the energy flows towards it. Maria also highlights the value of shifting our perspective and unlearning tradition to open the path for shaping our reality. These are what leaders need to radiate the same positivity. Tune in to this episode and Choose Happy with Maria Brady today!

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Maria Brady - Leaders On Leadership

I am tremendously excited to welcome my dear friend and longtime colleague, Maria Brady. Let me tell you a little bit about Maria. She is fondly called a ray of sunshine, this successful businesswoman, author, and certified Energy Codes Coach. She shines her light to inspire others. Her positivity and resilience along with managing a life-threatening illness propelled her to launch an inspirational website and gift line. We are going to hear about her energizing story, how she consistently decides to choose happiness, and in all things pays the price of leadership. Maria, I am so excited to reconnect with you on this show.

I am so honored and thrilled to be here. I have followed you and everything that you've done over the years. It is so gracious and so kind to include me here. Thank you.

You are so welcome and you've always been such a supporter. To our audience out there, Jim Toner, if you're reading, we were at a convention right when I first got back to run the business back in 2009 or 2010, so a long time ago. We were at this speaking event. Jim Toner invited us. That's where we connected. We have stayed in touch ever since then. She's going to share a lot about her story and her continued connection to tremendous people and tremendous books. Maria, you're an entrepreneur. A lot of our audience are entrepreneurs of all stages and ages of life. Tell me about your lineage as an entrepreneur.

My grandfather in 1916 was 16 years old, stowed away on a boat from Italy to come to the United States. He worked in the coal mines near McKeesport, Pennsylvania, and then went on to get married, started a restaurant with his wife, and had my father. My father and mother owned a restaurant. The entrepreneurial bloodline continues with myself. Also, my daughter, Rachel is now an entrepreneur selling jewelry and helping me in my marketing business. It's a little genetic code.

Isn't that beautiful? I grew up with an entrepreneur. I'm like, "No, I'm going the other route." After about twenty years, I'm like, "No." You are coded. A lot of our audience out there retired once, twice, sometimes thrice, and they're like, "Now, I'm free to serve." Everybody has this innate entrepreneurial gene in them. You have a beautiful story about how that kept propelling you. First of all, tell me a little bit about this marketing company that you have.

The company name is Marakae. I fused the first syllables of my name Maria with my daughters', Rachel and Kaylee, so Marakae. I started it in 1996 with the internet being launched. Some of you will remember that sound as you plugged in to connect. I started with a fax, a computer, and two clients, leaving a great job in the banking field with benefits and all the bonuses of being an executive at a young age. What was my priority? It was being a mom. There wasn't that flexible time in the workspace that you now have. I like to think I was a pioneer in the entrepreneurial world. I launched it, have grown it, and have been blessed for many years. They're grown now. Kaylee graduated with a Master's degree. I'm a grandma and so blessed.

For our audience out there, you guys know we usually go through loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision, but Maria and I talked, and because she's so tremendous, I would do it for anybody. I love that she said, "Let's start with vision because that's where everything starts." Maria, my father gave a speech decades ago that still continues to be the most downloaded. We have a little booklet in print called The Price of Leadership.

In it, he says that to truly be a leader and not just a leader in name only, one of the things that you are going to have to pay is you're going to have to have a vision. The Bible's very clear. Where there is no vision, people perish. Can you share with us what vision has meant for you throughout your leadership journey? Especially, you've gone through some pretty high highs and some pretty low lows. What does that do to your vision?

Thank you for leading this conversation with vision. Where you put your attention, energy grows. I feel it's so important to dream regardless of age. When we're younger, you think about, "I want to go to college and graduate. I'm going to find my soulmate. I'm going to have children. I'm going to buy a house." Once you look back and you reflect, you're like, "I've been so blessed with the realization of these dreams." You're like, "What else is there to do?" You can define the vision of your life at any time, at any stage.

It's very important to never stop dreaming and always embrace those dreams. At this stage, you can dive into your hobby. You can write that book. Your dad said one of the most profound things that I learned from you. Your life is changed by the books that you read and the people that you meet, and it's so incredibly true. When you can pick up a book that inspires you and it resonates with you, you transform your own life, and then you impact others.

Write a book, get a hobby. If you're called to open a business, do it. If you feel it, it's in your soul and it just needs to come out and be shared with other people. When I think about it, I was 55. I wrote a chapter in an award-winning book. I launched the website. I became a certified coach. It took me eighteen months while running a business full-time and earning certification at Chatham College. You can never stop dreaming. Just do it. It's so important.

I love that you linked vision to dreaming because we often don't think about it, but it is. There should be a wonderment and a joy about it that sometimes it's like, "Vision. I got to be so driven and so focused." Yes, you do. Like you said, we have authors in their 90s. Most of our audience are 60 and above and they're like, "Now, I'm free to serve." Their vision is the sky's the limit because they've built fortune in family. Now, they're at a season of life where they are free to serve their highest purpose. Not that the other ones weren't good, but it's a whole different thing as you are seeing and finding out.

It truly is. I believe that we are all here with a purpose. We should not allow fear to overcome sharing that divinity with others. It happened to me in 2013. There was this unexpected path. I wasn't feeling well, and it was more than just the fatigue of managing a business and two teenage daughters. Sadly, my mom had dementia, so we were trying to take care of her outside of a facility. We were selling my childhood home, which was so stressful and incredibly sad. My mom was my best friend. I kept going to doctor after doctor. Finally, after much testing, in bone marrow, we found out I had a non-Hodgkin's lymphoma but it was a subset. It was rare. It was called Waldenström.

We are all here with a purpose. We should not allow fear to overcome sharing that divinity with others.

The doctor calls, it's October 29th, 2013, and he says, "You have this. Your life expectancy is 5 to 7 years." I was like, "I will accept your diagnosis, but not the prognosis. I believe that God is the only one who defines how long we are on the phase of this earth." It honestly didn't fit in the vision of my life. I had kids that were going to graduate high school and college and get married. No. I planned on being here to witness and partake in all of that. I said no to that.

I credit my parents. They were very resilient and faithful. They always said, "You can define your future, and there's a divine purpose." I accepted this challenge. I knew that there were lessons to be learned along the way. I wasn't sure exactly what they were, but I didn't play a victim. I was like, "I'm going to be able to overcome this with a lot of faith." Flash forward, it was six years before I even needed treatment. It's God's will and it was a healthy lifestyle. I had already surpassed that five-year mark that he so delivered to me. I was pretty proud of that.

Can I ask you something? I love that you brought this up because I went through this about several years ago where they kept saying, "No, it's okay." I'm like, "I'm exhausted." My father had chronic fatigue before people knew it was chronic fatigue. In my case, my adrenal gland was shot. I figured that out. How did they find it? Did they find it in blood work? Was it a platelet count? There is so much stuff and they're like, "It's okay." You go out through test after test and you just can't find it. I want to encourage people that are out there to advocate for your health because if you're not feeling strong, something's not right.

They kept telling me, "You're fine," because my CBC, which is your baseline blood count was normal. I'm like, "No, there is something wrong." There's a number called IgM and I forget what those initials stand for. The IgM was elevated. A person's normal reading would be 300. Mine was, at that time, 1,200. It was either multiple myeloma, which ironically my paternal grandmother had. Here I was almost the same age as her. Weird, but it was the IgM. From that, they were able to do additional testing and do the bone marrow.

Did they have to go in and get your bone marrow to test it?

Yes.

You said you were fine and functioning. Did the symptoms subside or what happened?

Once I knew what it was, it was like, "I'm not going to absorb that."

Knowledge is power, even knowing what it is. That's my thing. I don't care how bad the news is. I just have to know what it is because then I'll have a plan of attack so I can process it.

I agree. Funny story real quick. I had to go for my first bone marrow. I chose not to have any kind of sedation or even relaxation because I had a big consulting gig that day that had been lined up. I just did it. 7:00 AM went in, came home, got dressed, had this cute little sweater dress on, and you could see the pressure bandage on my back. I was like, "This outfit looks so cute. I'm not changing." I rip off my pressure bandage, put on a bunch of Band-Aids, and leave. I work a twelve-hour day that day. I just kept taking Advil. It was so painful, but that's the resilient thing. You just move on.

I love that you did that. You're like, "This is what it is, but I'm going to power through this." I love that you kept your dress on. You're such a professional because what good does staying home going to do? I'm like you. I work through pain, emotional, spiritual, and physical. That's my healing, working movement, giving back. Laying home and recouping is not good for me.

The next thing he talked about was loneliness as leadership, loneliness in anything, loneliness in your spiritual life, loneliness in your personal life, and loneliness in your business. Tell me what loneliness means to you and maybe a season you went through and maybe some words of edification or some tools to help some of our audience that may be in a season of loneliness.

Initially, if I talk about personally when I was going through chemo and immunotherapy, I did feel alone, even though I had the love of family and friends, but then I would shift my thoughts when I was there. I would say, "I'm not alone. None of us are. We have God. We have Jesus. We have a spirit team who follows us." I was blessed to meet this woman who is so connected to the divine. She said that my spirit team is made up of Mother Mary, Mother Teresa, which explains why I love children and nurturing, the Archangels, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and there's a doctor named Gee.

She guides me through this holistic journey that I'm on. I will always receive signs when I'm trying something new, a new modality or a new supplement. It will be a butterfly or a dragonfly, literally words that appear on a license plate or an article that pops up about something that I'm thinking. I love that divine connection.

I also felt very alone from clients. I chose not to share my story. There was a lot of fear at that time in my life. It was fear of losing them as clients and fear of not getting projects because, "If she's sick, how can she take care of me?" A lot of my clients are my friends. I didn't want to worry them or burden them. There were close friends I didn't tell. There were family members that didn't know because I didn't want them to worry about me.

Looking back, I realized that I had foregone a lot of love and prayer, but that's where I was. That was my head space at the time. I felt very lonely. In fact, you may recall that when I went to compose the chapter in '21, the anthology that was a bestseller on Amazon, I called you. I said, "I'm asked to write this chapter and all my words keep coming to letting go of this story and coming out of how my entrepreneurial spirit guided me through this whole cancer treatment." You said to me, "Let it go."

I remember that dialogue.

It is these beautiful true words because, from that, God has placed so many opportunities for speaking engagements. He divinely guided me to write that award-winning website to go onto podcasts, to speak in front of audiences, and to empower not only cancer patients but other people to see the good and the gratitude in you now. It was a big moment for you.

I remember that. You were so brave to do that. It's a real thing. We don't want to tell people. We don't want to worry them, but then you're right, it's our livelihood. I love that you said you forego love and prayer. When we isolate, we deny others the opportunity to stay in our lives and continue to bless us either through donations, bringing a meal, praying, or even hiring us. That is our natural tendency to shoulder it alone, but it was so beautifully said. You also said, "That's where I was right now."

If you're out there and you've done it, we've all done it. When I was younger before, I got back and realized sharing is caring because other people need to know. They look at you from the outside and think. In the minute, you're like, "No. This is what's going on." It's not off-putting. It's almost like, "You too." We can pour into other people and serve as a beacon. If you're out there and you're thinking, don't go through this alone. As Maria said, there are so many people out there. When you share with the people that love you, you allow them to be a part of the trial, which is a blessing for them.

It's truly an evolution. When I think about loneliness now, what it means to me is a little bit of a spin. It's like being alone. I love alone time. Decades ago, I had to feel every minute with an activity or you didn't feel purposeful. You didn't feel you were doing enough or being enough. I'm so over that. My girls would say, "Mom, the only time we see you sit is on the beach or at our pool because you are in motion from the time you wake up until the time you go to bed." Now, I meditate. This type A plus personality is like a B. It's calming and it gives you time to drop in.

I encourage you, during the workday, especially if you are still working or if your day is hectic, just stop and breathe. Think of three things, three blessings, and hold that in your heart. What does that feel like? Take a minute and write those little things down on a piece of paper and put them in a jar. When you need a little lift, you open it, read it, and I guarantee you, it will bring a smile to your face all the time.

That's a beautiful real way. Have that on your desk. Have that already. We talked about vision and loneliness. Now, we're going to talk about weariness. Weariness is we're still flesh and blood. We have our spirits, we have our souls, and we have our resilience, but we are still mere mortals. Can you tell me how you combat weariness and how you stay refreshed and at the top of your game?

I always start the day hand in my heart with the words, "I am whole. I am healthy. I am healed." There's prayer at that time. There's prayer throughout the day and at the end of the day. Not only do you have to say the words. You have to feel it. Because when you feel what you say and what you think, you create that vibrational energy and alignment to invite that into your life. That's so important.

When you feel what you say and think, you create that vibrational energy, that alignment to invite that into your life.

I remember another thing that I learned from your speech. Your dad said something to the effect of most people walking around dead that they don't even realize it. It's so sad, especially in today's society where there's so much negativity. People are spiraling in this vortex of negativity promoted by the news and social media. You can't control that, but we absorb that energy.

There's a clip. His name escapes me now. If you google Japanese scientist water experiment, it is fascinating. Everybody needs to do this. He showed that the energy around you, the vibration of negativity, heavy metal music, harsh language, and harsh words, will create toxicity within you. He took pictures of water crystals. When the water crystals were introduced to kindness, loving words, and beautiful instrumental music, they were gorgeous. When they were introduced to harsh words and negativity, they turned cloudy.

What that made me realize is it's so important with whom you surround yourself, whether what you're listening to, what your thoughts are, and the people around you. I make sure that environment is very clean, and that's what keeps my energy level up and the weariness down. I personally haven't watched the news since 2020. I just find it very heavy. There's a study done that the less news you watch, the happier you will be.

I know. My last date was May 8, 2014. I am more informed and more at peace now. I then finally cut the cable. I just had it on. I got rid of that. I'm like, "I don't even want to have this presence in my house. Get this evil box out of here. I can stream what I need to stream." I'm feeling pretty excited about that too. You're right. That's thinking. They call that an emotional contagion. Your body can catch a disease of the mind. Norman Vincent Peale said that anxiety and stress have killed more people than every disease ever known to mankind. That negativity and darkness, we're not made for that.

No, we're not. Our souls are not made for that. Sadly, we're conditioned to be in that fight-or-flight mode a lot. When we go to the what-if scenarios, the majority of people will go to the what-if negative. They can't see the good and just go into this spiral. What that does is it increases your cortisol, your negative hormones. It increases your blood pressure. None of that is good for your immune system.

You have to train your mind to see the good. It's a conscious and deliberate decision to choose happy, to find the good, and to avoid that negativity. Positivity reduces that weariness. That high vibrational energy is created with positive and thoughts of gratitude. When I started treatment, the nurses would say, "You're going to be so sick. You're going to have headaches. You're going to have this." I'm like, "Why would you even say that to somebody?" Somebody who's not resilient is going to make themselves sick because that's what's expected.

You just spoke it.

I was incredibly blessed to be very high functioning during the whole time. What was interesting is when the IV would start, I would pray and I would envision this golden light going through my body and nurturing the sick cells. I did not kill them. I felt these poor little cells are just so lost and they're running amok and they need help. What was so fascinating about that is when I went through my Energy Codes training, Dr. Sue Morter talked about how these positive healing thoughts are sustaining our innate ability to heal. If you think kill, that doesn't heal. If you think love and nurturing, that heals. Isn't that beautiful?

Choose Happiness: If you think to kill, that doesn't heal. But if you think love and nurturing, that heals.

Yes, because they were once good, and then they got corrupted, like us. We need to be made whole and new again, which we will. I never thought of it. For our audience out there, when people come in and speak things, I don't care whether it's stuff. It happened to me at the vet. Somebody said something, and I'm like, "No, that's not what's going on." It's so strange, but I love that you talked about that. For the audience out there, you guys know it. I'm preaching to the choir, but it's called rumination.

That's how my adrenal gland got shot because of all the stress. You run your body down. Within a couple of weeks of staying in that negative state, you can start flipping into a mental illness, not a genetic coating one, but one that you, out of situations, put yourself in it. I tell people, "You choose it."

There's good weariness and bad weariness, but you have to make that conscious choice. Every thought that enters my own mind, you're the gatekeeper. Yay or nay. Get out or I'm going to put it on mute because we're never going to stop it. We're living in a fallen world. This is part of who we are, but you sure can hold it captive, get rid of it, take that negativity as you did, and flip it around as a positive experience.

It's so true because those negative thoughts come in. "Did I ever think I could perish?" Absolutely. "Could I have a reaction to this medicine and possibly die?" Of course, you did, but the thought came and it went, and then you affirm it with a positive. Don't do the what-if negative scenario. Switch it to the positive.

Choose Happiness: Don't do the negative what-if scenario. Switch it to the positive.

I'm training my two little Aussie babies.

They're adorable.

Thank you. My private trainer came and I've had many dogs, but there's always something that this old dog can learn with my new babies. She said that when they stop, and then say their name again and do something positive and give them a treat. You stop that negativity, take positive action, not just reward them right away for stopping, but nope, stop, give them a new command, treat. That's what we do with our minds. I do that all the time. I will hear myself say, "No, we're not going there."

For our audience out there, I'm pretty positive, but I was one of the biggest ruminators out there. I was stressed and worried about everything. You talk about what-if negative. In prison ministry, one of the guys looked at me and he said, "It sounds like you're fixated on what isn't happening and what if the bad happens instead of the what if it's good." All of a sudden, I looked at him and I'm like, "Thank you, brother. I can't even hear my own verbal vomit." He called me on it, and I have been very conscious then. My what if is always going to go to the positive side.

Abandonment is the next one. Talking about animals, we hear a lot of fear of abandonment or you're abandoning an animal. My dad talked about abandonment as stop doing what you like and want to do in favor of what you want and need to do. It's this intense hyper-focus. I can remember him telling me. I'm like, "Dad, how'd you get so successful?" He's like, "I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success." I'm like, "What do you mean?" He goes, "Every day, just like those thoughts, you have to be on it saying, 'Is this the highest use of my time?'"

Even with jetting off the busyness, I had that too. I was in perpetual motion, I'm multitasking, I'm talking on my Bluetooth, I'm doing this, and then I'm like, "I love that rest, and that Sabbath thing is as intentional as anything else." With all the things you have going on and as active as you are, how do you deal with abandonment and stay focused?

I have to say the abandonment resonated with me. As entrepreneurs, and I'm not saying somebody who has a salary doesn't think this way, but we abandoned traditional ways of thinking. We always abandon old patterns, too, because in our businesses, you have to always be evolving. You always have to be growing and looking for ways to improve the process or add a new product or something like that to be able to keep growing.

It was interesting because I feel my entrepreneurial spirit served me well during my treatment and my healing journey. I approached the treatment plan like a project. I did research, "Where's the best place to go? What are the treatment options?" You hire a great team, and then you go in, you get it done, you set your goals, and you monitor your progress. I feel that mindset helped to have things go a little more smoothly and that resilience as an entrepreneur.

It started in March 2019. I went through treatment in August 2020. At that time, the IgM number that we talked about was stable. It was still very high. It was in the 3,000s, but it had come down from the 4,000s. What happens with the IgM is it basically crowds out your red cells, your white cells, and your neutrophils which causes immune issues, and then eventually organ function that's not going to happen. The IgM number is important.

When I saw this number stabilizing in the high 2,000s and low 3,000s, I was like, "I'm done." They're like, "You can't be done. You have another year to do this." I'm like, "I don't know what this immunotherapy long-term effects are. We're such a rare group. I'm out." As I took that leap of faith in 1996 with God and myself to launch this business, I'm taking a leap of faith with God and me again and saying I'm done with traditional treatment. There was a role, and it served me very well, but I think that we need that integrative approach where you're encompassing the mind, body, and spirit. I feel what's missing in our medicine.

Along the way, I became obsessed with the HEAL Documentary with Kelly Noonan. On there was Dr. Joe Dispenza. I started to follow him and Dr. Sue Morter, who are such thought leaders in the process of self-healing. Everything is done in Jesus' light. One of the things Dr. Joe said was, "Instead of asking God to be healed, pray to him in thanksgiving that you are." You're literally creating your reality. It's there. It's yours. That's what God wants. Stop thinking that you're ill or need to be healed. You are healed. That was such a pivotal moment for me. I was incredibly blessed with that.

Create your reality. Instead of asking God to be healed, thank Him that you are.

I then started down this whole rabbit hole of holistic healing and found a local support group, Faith & Gratitude, here near Pittsburgh. Lori Ball, who I think we were soul sisters in her previous life, was an ovarian cancer survivor. She turned me on to local practitioners that do reflexology and acupuncture. There's a gentleman named Paul who does a lot of energy healing. He's traveled the world and we call him the Paul Lama. One of the most profound things Paul said to me was the greatest way to learn is to unlearn.

I was thinking that's amazing because you need to unlearn all of these limiting beliefs that we, our parents, and society have placed in ourselves. We're so hard on ourselves. There's this even subconscious thing that we don't even know about. I go for EMDR therapy, which is the releasing of the subconscious because I'm holding onto something that I don't even know what it is. I just want to let it all go. Let go. You can't harbor anything. I don't even feel anxious. I don't feel like I'm holding onto anything. There's something up there. It's fascinating, unlearning.

I love how you also advocated for your health. A lot of people are like, "You mean you can say no to something?" I'm like, "Yes." When I go to a doctor or I'm with Mike, they'll be like, "We'd like to do this and that." I'm like, "Yes and no." They're like, "You can do that?" I'm like, "Yes. You read the test. Get in your portal. Do your research." I'll look at all the numbers. I'm like, "Yes, but this is a little high." I love the fact that you looked at it, but you got to weigh it all out. It's your body. You got to be able to say yay or nay and they don't know. I love that you were comfortable advocating for yourself. That's so important in all things.

It's so true. It was a lesson to learn about using my voice to speak. I no longer feared hurting somebody's feelings or stepping over boundaries. This is my body. These are my choices. I challenge them to have tests done. We're such a small subset. I won't go into all the details, but I used to have to manage some of my blood work. Why am I managing it by going to the lab just because I'm a subset of general cancer? This should automatically be done.

I went to the medical director and we cleaned that policy up. I also challenged the protocol for bone marrow because I had a second bone marrow done. They would not allow some of it to go to a different facility for research. I said, "I'm canceling the bone marrow." They go, "You can't do that." I go, "Yes, I can. Who do I need to talk to? If you have somebody willing to share so others can learn, you need to take advantage of that. Where do I need to go with this?"

Choose Happiness: If you have somebody willing to share so others can learn, you need to take advantage of that.

Isn't that crazy? I experienced some of that during the last three years with what was going on. I'm like, "Why don't you want what I have to offer?" They're like, "No." I'm like, "No? Okay." That's very strange, but we press on to find the people that will be open. You get told no by a lot of people. How are you feeling now?

I am so blessed to feel great. Like I said, my daughter, I got to see her graduate, both of them from college, and one from graduate school. Rachel got married. I'm a GG now. I have learned to speak for myself. My voice matters. I have learned a lot about self-love. It doesn't have to do with anything being pompous. We're taught as young Catholic women that self-love is not a good thing, but it's about self-worth and knowing that you matter, you have a right, and you can speak. My mantra is true to me in '23 and I'm very blessed. I continue to advocate for other cancer patients locally and also nationally.

The fact that you talk about that, I had to laugh because I grew up not having a non-denominational background, but the same thing. Being proud is not prideful. We are to celebrate our successes. I'm going to re-read all of the Apostle Paul's letters to the churches. He keeps saying, "Nobody's done more than I have, but I boast in my weakness." That's what you're doing, and that's what he's doing. He's here to say, "I will never shut up because I know, through God, when I am weak, he is strong."

The fact that you're not talking about how successful you are, nobody wants to hear that. Unless you're out it and money's your main motivator and there are lots of people out there. Money can be gone like that, just like help. When you talk about when you are boasting about your weaknesses and how God has taken you through this, that's what 2/3 of the New Testament is all about. Reading his letters has helped me realize that's why we go through tough stuff, we testify, and we're witnesses to share with other people because we're sharing the miracles and blessings that have happened in our lives.

True miracles. Absolutely.

You have this Choose Happy. Tell our readers a little bit about that and how they incorporate the whole choose happy into their lives.

Choose Happy is super fun on Facebook and it's still growing. One of the things that I came up with was it's a gift line and also blogs. The word FEAR, I turned it into an acronym, Feel Everything All Relates. I put on a little t-shirt and there's a little butterfly as a symbol of evolution. If you root yourself in feeling everything all relates, it's for our soul's evolution. All our trials and tribulations and challenges, no matter how small and even the rewards in life, are all about the evolution of our souls divinely orchestrated.

Choose Happiness: Our trials, tribulations, challenges, and even the rewards in life are all about the divine orchestration to evolve our souls.

It could be why there's a big Bible verse about that. "All things work together for good for those who love the Lord or are called according to his purpose." I love it. You have a purpose because where people face hope, face despair, and wanting to check out, there's tons of it around. Even kids have it now. It's because they don't see the purpose in it. If you can't find purpose in the joy and not the pain because life is a bittersweet blend of both, whenever people go, "I quit," I'm like, "Do you quit when the good stuff happens?" There's this duality of everything. We know there's good. We know there's evil. We know there's light. We know there's dark. You have to get used to being, as Charles would say, happy-miserable and not just miserable-miserable. You have to choose this.

It's so true. It's such a choice. When I was reading your dad's speech, and I have to quote him so I'm going to use my paper, in The Price of Leadership, these words were so profound for me. "We may not be the greatest recruiters or motivators, but we have to be real students of living if we were to pay the price of leadership. For the price of leadership is nothing more than living."

It's so true what you and I talked about that every day is an opportunity to learn and evolve. Every encounter with a person, a challenge, a reward, or an illness is an opportunity for our soul's evolution. As a mom, a GG, and a business lady, I'm a living testament to what faith and love, hope, and resilience means. I'm incredibly blessed.

Every day is an opportunity to learn and evolve our souls.

Maria, I am so glad that our past re-intersected at this time in our lives. We are very different people than when we first met, even when we met years ago. How can our audience get in touch with you? What is the best way to reach out? I know they're going to want to connect with you.

You can visit IChoseHappy.Live. I'm also on Facebook. My blog is under Feel The Vibe. The little gifts that I have, you could find under Buy The Goodies, and proceeds do benefit Faith & Gratitude and the Waldenstrom's Foundation. You can email me at BeHappy@IChoseHappy.Live.

I love it. Maria, thank you so much.

Important Links

• Energy Codes

• Marakae

• The Price of Leadership

• HEAL Documentary

• IChoseHappy.live

• Facebook – I Chose Happy.live

• Feel The Vibe

• Buy The Goodies

• Faith & Gratitude

• Waldenstrom's Foundation

• BeHappy@IChoseHappy.live

About Maria Brady

Fondly called a “ray of sunshine” this successful businesswoman, author and certified Energy Codes Coach shines her light to inspire others. Her positivity and resiliency along with managing a life-threatening illness propelled her to launch an inspirational website and gift line. Learn about her energizing story and how to Choose Happy!

Episode 165 - Derrick And Tavia Jackson - Leaders On Leadership

Leadership is not just a title, it comes with a price, and the first cost is loneliness. But those who are willing to pay the price and lead with courage and conviction, will inspire others to follow and change the world. In today's episode, we'll be chatting with Derrick Jackson and Tavia Jackson. They are the joyful married couple who own Tastebuds Popcorn in Concord, North Carolina. Together, they discuss what it means to be a true leader. They share the valuable insights and gold nuggets they earned in their 10 years of experience in network marketing and leadership development. They explore the first cost of leadership as discussed in “The Price of Leadership”, which is loneliness. Derrick and Tavia discuss what loneliness looks like for leaders, and share their own perspectives and experiences about the sacrifices and challenges of the role. Further on, they emphasize the value of resilience, unexpected connections, and more. Tune in now and gain insight on what it takes and costs to be a true leader!

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Derrick And Tavia Jackson - Leaders On Leadership

I am so excited because my guests are Derrick and Tavia Jackson. Let me tell you a little bit about these two. Derrick and Tavia Jackson are happily married. They love the Lord and own Tastebuds Popcorn Concord in Concord, North Carolina. That is the trifecta, happily married, loving the Lord, and popcorn, my favorite food. More about that to come. They have over a decade of experience in network marketing and leadership development. Tavia is a veteran, and she has served in the United States Marine Corps. Respect, sister. I love that. Derrick and Tavia, welcome. Thank you for taking the time to share with our audiences.

Thank you so much for having us. We're honored to be here.

It's our pleasure.

I always like to tell our audiences how we made this tremendous connection. That is through Nikita Koloff. Many of our audiences know that Nikita has been a longtime friend of mine and brother in Christ. He has been on the show himself. We do a monthly Zoom call in the last few years. He connected with you two and then reached out. We connected, and the rest is history. You never know who you're going to get connected with. Do those follow-up calls with people. I can't encourage you enough.

Before we get started, my father wrote a pamphlet called The Price of Leadership based on a speech that he gave years ago. He was all about leadership. In it, he talks about the price of leadership, meaning what you're going to have to pay as a price to be a true leader, not just a leader in name only. Derrick and Tavia, the first price that he said you have to pay is loneliness. We have all heard that, "Heavy is the head that wears the crown. It's lonely at the top," but could you share with our audiences what loneliness means to you and looks like as a leader?

With Tastebuds Popcorn Concord, we launched that business in the middle of the pandemic. It was loneliest at that point in time. We already knew entrepreneurship was a very lonely place but in that particular time, everyone was so isolated from one another. We have the tendency to lean into what everyone is not doing because that's usually where success is. It's outside of our comfort zone. We have gotten comfortable being uncomfortable. We decided to start a business with a lot of human interaction during a time when humans weren't interacting. There are a lot of ideas and great ways to make money from friends but let's take some action.

We agreed in December 2020 to launch our business during the middle of the pandemic. There are lots of feelings associated with the uncertainty and the trepidation of, "I don't have too many people to ask. Everyone I talk to about starting a business now is probably going to try to talk me out of it. Let's keep this one close to our chests and only confide in people that understand our potential and the calling of our life." It was a very lonely start. There was funding available from the Federal Government but we started the idea after all that. It seemed like where we want small businesses to survive, we missed a lot of those windows. That was even lonelier in that regard.

How did you come to popcorn?

I love popcorn. I used to send Derrick all over to get popcorn, or I would chip popcorn places. One day, I asked him to get popcorn for me. He was driving probably about 45 minutes to an hour away to get popcorn. He ran into a gentleman that said, "I want to talk to you about our possible opportunity." Derrick came home. He was so excited. I said, "I'm sure that it's more work than whatever somebody told you. Let's pray about this and make sure it's what we should be doing as a family."

At that time, we had three children. Creed was eight months at the time. Zoe was 7 and Creed was 8 months old. We prayed about it and fasted about it for a month. We asked our spiritual leaders and our pastors, "Can you pray with us and fast with us about this and let us know what you're hearing as well?" One day, Zoe came downstairs and said, "Creed was born on National Popcorn Day." "First, how do you even know that? Two, let me google it."

I did that. Sure enough, Creed was born on January 19th. I was in the hospital for three days in labor. I winded up having him on that third day at 1:00 in the morning. I said, "You mean to tell me I was in the hospital all those days pushing because we were waiting for National Popcorn Day as a confirmation?" It was so awesome. Everyone in our family loves popcorn. We have loved popcorn since we were kids. We have Christmas pictures holding the two-gallon tins. We have always loved popcorn.

Think about the implications of three days. There are a lot of biblical things that were for three days before they were birthed.

That puts chills in my arms.

You saying that puts chills in mine. Thank you for sharing that and your comment about, "Be careful who you tell your dream to. Only tell it to the people that see your potential." Even Disney's closest friends are like, "You're crazy. Don't do this." You have to be very discerning about this when you have the calling because people aren't going to see it. Tavia, we will talk at the end. Popcorn is my favorite. I could eat popcorn in the morning. I love it. When I saw you were popcorn, I'm like, "That's another thing." I love that. We will get back onto leadership because I'm excited about popcorn too. Were you already employed elsewhere or running your businesses?

We were both employed at major banks. I also own two other businesses. One of them is doing makeup. I do makeup for weddings, events, and TV and film as well. Derrick had other adventures as well. We had multiple things going on. We're also very involved in our church. I'm an elder at our church as well. Derrick is a minister at our church. We had many irons in the fire at the time as well.

Did you then look at that timing other than the Lord laying it on your heart because the banks were still not as active or makeup? You have an entrepreneurial streak. What made you decide to go in that direction?

Derrick and I have done business together since we graduated college. We went to Elon University, the Fightin’ Christians, which turned into the phoenix out of the ashes. Everybody loves a good success story and an overcoming story. Right after college, it was Quixtar at the time. It wasn't Amway.

I remember that. Executive Books was involved in that. You're taking me way back.

We built that together. We were dating at the time. At first, he was in the business, and then he brought me into the business. We got married and combined our businesses together. We learned how to do business together with our temperaments, strengths, weaknesses, love languages, and communication styles. We wanted to do something else together. We wanted to add more to our business acumen and what we're doing.

When the Lord dropped popcorn, I was thinking, "It's brick and mortar, God. Can you give me something that people only get online? Do I have to go somewhere?" You realize the risk is higher with the real building. His answer did not change, and I'm fine with that. We wanted to continue to do things together. I'm doing makeup. I do coaching now and things like that. Derrick supported me in everything I was doing but we still wanted to do something where we were 100% together.

In talking about loneliness, how beautiful that not only are you in the covenantal relationship of a marriage but you have taken that to be business partners. The cord of three strands is not easily broken. There's power in that. A lot of the guests that we have on here do have a spouse that works closely with them but there are still times of loneliness. We all go through them but how beautiful that you had a co-partner in life in all aspects. That is truly a gift.

Tavia was one of those people I could confide in. We understood that the world was at such a lonely point that we could be a part of the solution. We can be a catalyst for bringing people back together. If we're going to do that, we have to do something where there's nostalgia involved in family, freedom, fun, and certain themes that are prevalent in our culture. Popcorn was a way to be able to do that. I knew she was going to bring her light, her smile, and all that fun stuff to the equation. When we put our heads together, nothing is impossible.

I love that. The next topic my father talked about was weariness. He said that a lot of times, you're going to be working your fingers to the bone and you're going to be relying on people. Not everybody is doing what they need to be, and it's going to fall on you. You're married. You're involved in your church and your community. You have children. How do you combat weariness?

For myself, it's an understanding that you grow weary in well-doing. If you're not at some level of awareness, you're probably not doing what you're supposed to be doing. You're out of purpose, or at least that's how I interpret it. To be well-doing, there's doing involved. We stay active. We stay participating in this thing called life. We have been a part of the 80/20 equation or the Pareto Principle where 80% of the people do 20% of the work, and the other 20% are doing 80% of the work.

We have been there. Even in that 20%, there's a smaller percentage that is running with what we know. That was nothing unfamiliar to us. We have always been high-level achievers, whether it be in church, whether it be in Corporate America, or whether it be in business for ourselves, or even in relationships. Being able to go the extra mile because there's no traffic there has never been an issue for us. Tavia, do you want to speak to it?

There's a book called Now, Discover Your Strengths. Two of my top five are Responsibility and Relator. One of Derrick's is Maximizer. We take responsibility for what we're involved in. Sometimes you do get tired. I remember one time shortly after having Creed, working, and running multiple businesses. When I woke up, I was crying because I was already tired. I had to come up with my plan and create my system so that I was able to function in a place of peace and not be exhausted.

Weariness is a state of our mentality as well. Sometimes we are mentally tired and mentally exhausted. It's important to have self-care, systems, and family in place. It's important to not carry it all, communicate, and release some of those things. We journal. Our faith is so important to us, being able to trust God in situations and having an optimistic outlook because we know it's not over until it's good. He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it.

Sometimes we are mentally exhausted. It's important to have self-care in place, as well as systems and family.

I don't want to look back over my life and the story and say, "You wanted to complain through the story knowing that you were going to win instead of enjoying the journey, believing in God, having faith, and letting praise, honor, and joy be your testimony." I remember that in every situation and everything that happens when I have to tell this story, am I going to be proud of it? How am I going to feel?

I love it. I interviewed Mike Ettore. He retired from the Marines as a Command Master Sergeant. He said, "In the Marines, we call it a bias for action," meaning we're going to get whatever we said. You are coded that way. Another one of my favorite quotes is from Lena Horne, "It's not the load that breaks you down. It's the way you carry it." Life is tough. Think of what Jesus went through. You offload and get the right people. If God called you to it, he's going to equip you.

We don't want to spend 40 years wandering around in circles. That's what grouses will do to you. You will carry that weariness on the inside. We're all externally weary because we're mere flesh and blood, and we're going to break down until we get our renewed bodies but intrinsically, we still should be ready and always look to share that load. That's so beautifully put for both of you.

There's loneliness and weariness. The next terminology my father talked about was a word called abandonment. Abandonment typically has a negative connotation. There's fear of abandonment. I'm in pet rescue. His abandonment was that you need to focus on what you ought and need to do rather than what you like and want to do. I can remember seeing my father. I was a teenager in high school. He was so successful. He was telling me, "You may think I'm successful but I do more in a single day to contribute to my failure than my success."

His point was if you're not meticulous about expunging and staying focused on your best and highest for God, you can do a lot of rabbit trails. With all these things on your plates, because entrepreneurs by nature and people that are gifted tend to carry a lot of different things because they're always in different zones of gifting, how do you stay focused on what you need to stay focused on?

I had to realize that I was willing to do what most people weren't willing to do for a certain amount of time so that we could live a life like no other. I don't believe that this thing called life is a dress rehearsal. We get one major shot at it. There's lots of grace inside there. You can make mistakes along the way but ultimately, we want to use our life so that the use of our life outlives our life. We do everything with the X factor involved, which means we're developing a legacy. We want to have our name spoken well of. We want to be good glory carriers for the father. It's being able to abandon some of the things that my friends were doing or that weren't leading necessarily to success. They were just topical self-care.

Life is not a dress rehearsal. There's lots of grace inside there. You can make mistakes along the way, but ultimately we want to use our life.

The way I like to look at self-care is it's not bath bombs and back massages. It's more about creating a life that you no longer long to escape from. We try to have viable feedback loops for one another, "We're not doing what everyone else is doing. I'm sure it's going to be a lot of fun but it's not the wisest financial decision for our household. It's not the right thing for where we're going and what our calling is. We have to paddle our canoe. We have to run our race." It's cultivating a life around that.

We set measurable goals as well. I have a background in project management. I'm also a certified Scrum Master. In Agile and Scrum, we do two-week sprints. It's very easy for me to set a goal, say, "This is what we need to do. These are the productivity goals that need to happen," and monitor it daily to make sure that it happens. Sometimes we are not focused because the goal and the vision are not in front of us. Maybe we did not write it down. Maybe we wrote it down at the high level but we didn't flesh it out to all the pieces of the goal and everything that we need to do.

We may have a team goal and not make a specific goal for ourselves, realizing that there are so many variables that can impact that goal. We also have mentors and coaches in place that help with clarification and accountability. One day, Derrick taught me to give the gift of no. Sometimes abandonment is, "I'm not going to do that." Walk in your power in it. It's not that I can't. I used to say, "I can't." I can but I'm not. It's understanding the reality of that in a kind way and staying focused.

I had to grow from being a people pleaser but when I looked at it spiritually, my steps are ordered by the Lord. If I'm not being obedient to where God wants me to be and who he's calling me to interact with at a time, I'm missing valuable things that I could be doing for the kingdom and for other people to assist. It's not about the person who wanted me to do something that I had to say no to. Ultimately, am I pleasing my heavenly father and what I'm doing on a day-to-day basis? If he gave us a vision, am I also pleasing him by following through to bring that to pass?

We also decided to be positive about our word choices. There are times when you would say in more so a victim mentality, "I'm not going to be able to do that." Someone invites somebody somewhere, "I can't do that." I get to do everything that I am doing because I'm on purpose. It's not, "I can't." I get to do so and so. It's the mentality of making a positive word choice about the price that you're paying, "I'm going to do this." I get to do X, Y, and Z as opposed to the negative or sad words that we may say sometimes.

Lastly, I want to say that when it comes to staying focused, sometimes our brain does go to different places. We have social media. Some people may not use it as often as others but there are phone calls, TV, and many things that are screaming for our attention daily, even our thoughts. When it comes to our thoughts, I always say, "You can't interrupt a thought with a thought. You have to speak out loud and change the course." It's a simple example if I told Derrick to count to ten.

1, 2, 3, 4.

What's your name?

Derrick.

He had to stop counting to say his name. When you start to speak out loud, you have to stop thinking about what you used to be thinking to say something else out loud. It's the same thing with songs that get stuck in our heads. I don't like this crazy song. I heard it somewhere. It's stuck in my head. I'm walking through the grocery store. This random music they're playing is stuck in my head. This is not what I want to say. It's not what I pronounce. It's not what I want to think. What do I do? I pick a different song to sing and sing it out loud. It's making sure we do the simple things to keep our brain on track and going where we want it to go and then reprogramming our subconscious mind to do the same thing.

When you start to speak out loud, you have to stop thinking what you used to be thinking to say something else out loud.

You mentioned the words on purpose. A lot of people are like, "We need to be on purpose." We all have the same 24 hours every day. I even saw a mug on Amazon that says, "You have the same 24 hours in a day as Beyonce." I was busting out. Time is the great equalizer. It's what you do in those moments. I love how you said not just on purpose but in purpose every day in every way your billable hours like you're a lawyer.

At the end of the day, you go to God and say, "Here you go. I spent an hour dorking around. That wasn't in productive rest. It was wasted." I love that you said that. If we weren't recording, I would stop recording, shout, and run around the room. What you're saying is so exciting but we have to finish this recording. I already have 50 book titles for you. I cannot even get over the wisdom and your giftedness in sharing it. Thank you.

You mentioned the V word for vision, Tavia, when you were answering. Derrick, you did too. Let's talk about the vision. I'm not particularly visionary but my father said, "Vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing the plan of attack." How do you craft your vision? You've talked about the calling for the Lord and getting the right help but even where you're at now with everything going on, how do you craft what's next? Leadership is all about the idealized vision of the future.

The first thing we focus on is clarity of vision because I'm an ideation type of person. Ideas come very fluently. They're almost like red bouncy balls to a puppy, "I could do that. I'm capable." I could be productive in everything but it's not necessarily in purpose. That helps to prioritize so that we're not serial entrepreneurs but everything is feeding a common purpose. We stay locked in the people who know because I may know how to do a particular task but that person can see it from a different vantage point, whereas the thing that's closest to me may be the most pertinent thing at that particular moment.

Be able to step back a little bit and say, "We know that without vision, people perish." As soon as you get a vision, you stop perishing. That's a very comforting thought. I'm capable of a lot of things and I'm blessed to do a lot of things but I can't do everything. The vision has to align with our priorities as well. There are certain non-negotiables inside there. Our marriage is number one. Our family is number two. There's God, family, business, and country. There are certain things that are paramount to our decision-making in the process.

True Leader: As soon as you get a vision, you stop perishing.

You hit on the underlying foundation of values for your vision. You hit on the family. Once you lay that foundation, Charles always said, "There are only three decisions in life, who you're going to live your life with, what are you going to live your life in, and who you're going to live it for." Once you lay those down, we have a tremendous amount of latitude in Christ to do different things.

Leadership is all about values. When you said everything comes back to the common purpose, can you unpack that? That's the core of life management services. There are a lot of different things I'm involved in but everything overarching goes back to helping people realize the image of Christ that they have. Therefore, they can do anything. How do you thread that back? A lot of our audiences out there are very talented. They have that puppyish entrepreneurial spirit too. Could you help us with some of that?

A lot of times, people make mission statements for companies and organizations. We made one for our family. We also made a family crest for what we represent. Who are we in the world? What is our shield? What do we carry with us? There are a couple of things. I won't give you the whole because it's a lot. We're called to do a lot but one of the things is to set the captives free and to be a free family backed up by free families. Everything that we have done has been bigger than us. When you build something bigger than you, is it scary? Absolutely, but there becomes a sense of obligation to make it happen because if not us, then who? If not now, then when? That's what I would say.

One of the scriptures that resonates is the scripture that says, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted and preach deliverance to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, and preach the acceptable year of our Lord."

Every situation that we encounter, every business, and everything we're doing is an opportunity to utilize the Spirit of Christ and the same power that rose Jesus from the dead that lives in us to give life, set people free, and heal the brokenhearted, every employee we interact with, and every business we come in contact with. We want our spirit to resonate with and come in contact with people. That brings healing and joy.

There are so many people that have come into our popcorn store. We have hugged, cried, and shared God. They have shared their stories. We have veterans that have come in and told us what they experienced in their duty stations and overseas. I was in Operation Iraqi Freedom too. Some have come in and shared about those experiences and shared about being in Beirut or the wars. To be able to hear people's stories, connect with them, and share the love of Christ, the Word of Christ, and the wisdom that God gives us in those encounters will continually make it never about us and always about Him.

Every time we have the opportunity to share, we want to push people closer to Christ. When we started this business, I said, "I'm sure popcorn is not the end-all and be-all but every vehicle and every venture God gives us is to give Him glory in this time and this season. There are people that are connected to popcorn that need Jesus." We thank God every day that he has utilized a venue and a product to give His name glory and to give us the opportunity to make Him famous.

Popcorn is still created by God. He created us who made the popcorn and then He created the land in one of the days of Genesis. Everything is his. You're bringing glory to it. That's like a song. I love that you use that and that you're sharing that. You said you are living it. You're showing up for everything you do on purpose and living it. It's a very present thing. There's the doing going on but you are manifesting or resonating. When you're anointed, you don't have to announce yourself. It comes from within. We know that's the Holy Spirit shining from within.

You're such a blessing. You're going to bless so many of our audiences out there and be so encouraged because the devil loves to get us, "Are you doing it or not? Why aren't you successful on that?" You're like, "You have to be in that moment and live every day." God takes care of the rest. He will bring you who needs to come into that story and tell you that story.

One thing I understand is that we give out of our abundance. If we're living in lack, then there's only so much we can give. The more prosperous we are when there's nothing missing and nothing broken, we can make real lasting changes and create other change-makers that can make more changes. I look at it like we are vessels. Tavia is the same way. We're vessels to be used. What we put in our vessel is ultimately what we're pouring out because we're blessed to be blessings.

True Leader: If we're living in lack, then there's only so much we can give. The more prosperous we are, when there's nothing missing and nothing broken, we can make real change.

We have experienced many hurdles along the way. Some years ago, the doctors diagnosed me with multiple sclerosis. It's incurable and degenerative. I preach at church. Almost every time it was time for me to preach at church, my arm would go numb and heavy. My vision went out. I couldn't see more than two inches in front of me. Things were happening back-to-back.

My cousin also experiences MS, and she's paralyzed. I laughed at the devil. We're caretakers for her. I said, "The one thing I see every day is what you wanted to bring into my life to bring fear. If this is a package that came to my door, I'm returning it to the sender." The vision that we have for our family gave me the strength to call down fire Heaven and the gift of healing that God put in our lives to not be debilitated or restricted by what a doctor said that I don't receive and manifest it through the Word and other people praying. Our pastors prayed. Young ladies professed hands on me but the healing power of God is true and evident.

There were different things that have happened to both of us. We didn't take those diagnoses and say, "Woe is me. I can't do this anymore. This is over." We fight back. I put scriptures all over my house. I believe the report of the Lord that I am healed. I am not going to take this in, process it in my body, and allow it to be true because we know the power of our minds and the power of our God. There comes a time in our life when we have to fight back. We refuse to give the enemy victory because we have a vision. I said, "Lord, you already told me what our family is supposed to do. Me being sick doesn't line up with your Word and vision. I refuse to lay down and accept this."

In that fight is where you produce the difference between what you know and what you believe. What I know is one thing but I'm going to act according to my beliefs. That's when you hunker down and figure out what you're made of. That's the pressure cooker. Life continually puts us through the pressure cooker but we time and time again figure out what we're made of and what our God is capable of. We're excited about the future.

True Leader: Life continually puts us through the pressure cooker, but we time and time again figure out what we're really made of and what our God's really capable of.

What makes you pop in a good way? It doesn't make you explode. It makes you pop. It makes you pop, and then you bring joy. How beautiful that you went through that because people watch, especially Christians. They watch us all the time. They watch us in our grief and when bad stuff happens. That is the number one time to show your testimony because you can show that you process this stuff and let people know, "The victory is already mine. If not a medical healing or a miraculous hearing, we still have eternal healing. We got that to look forward to."

How beautiful that you're able to share that. Thank you for sharing that with our audiences too. We all have setbacks but even though successful people probably have ten bad things that happen for every one good, you hear about the good. I appreciate that you have shared the victor side of your journey, not the bad stuff because we know that's there. I appreciate you sharing that too because health is one of those things that shake you to the core.

To think about Job and what he went through losing everything and his family but then to destroy his health and have him sit there, what else can there be? I appreciate you sharing that but also keeping the grand scheme of things. It is a grand scheme. It's the glorious scheme of things. We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Is there anything else leadership-wise that we have not touched on that you would like to share with our audiences?

We are Tastebuds Popcorn Concord. We do well over 200 flavors of popcorn. I don't know if we got into all that but we do over 200 flavors of popcorn. Somebody is like, "That's not possible." We do well over 200 flavors of popcorn, everything from cookies and cream to cheddar jalapeno, and everything in between. It goes crazy. In our first year in business, we were blessed enough to forge a relationship with the Carolina Panthers down here in North Carolina, the Charlotte Football Club, as well as a lot of other large and well-known corporate structures and entities because we add more fun.

We have done several celebrity golf tournaments, which is where we met Nikita, countless other athletes, and things of that sort. It's cool because we get to be ourselves there or shine our light in those venues. Popcorn is a gift given in love. That's one thing I did not know. It was an epiphany for me. You can get a lot of different gifts and things of that sort but when someone gives you popcorn, they love you. They may not say it a whole bunch but as far as love languages go, number six is probably popcorn.

I was going to say my love language is popcorn. All is forgiven. Forget diamonds. If you bring me popcorn, I'll follow you wherever. We're going to be doing in Heaven what we did on Earth. You have 200 flavors here. You're going to have 200 zillions in Heaven. I can't wait to try them all.

In leadership, I believe that it's important to take away those limiting beliefs that stop us from moving forward. There are so many people. There are businesses and books inside of you. You've heard this voice that said, "You're too old. Did you forget about this and all these little things? Will people read it? Will somebody find out about you?" These tiny limiting beliefs have been planted in our brains.

True Leader: For leadership, it's important to take away those limiting beliefs that stop us from moving forward.

One of the things we know is that when you stop learning, you start decaying. We have to continue learning but we also have to continue reprogramming our brain. It's important for each and every audience, entrepreneur, network marketer, and veteran to think about your subconscious mind and programming and continue to purposely reprogram it daily.

Reprogram what you think about creating financial prosperity. Reprogram what you think about your health and your wellness. Reprogram what you think about your personal success and your self-esteem. Those things don't come haphazardly. We have to be intentional about programming our minds and our brains to live life abundantly and the way God said we should.

We hear all these other things on the news. We live in a fear society. We don't watch the news often. If something happens, my family knows. If I need to know, call me. We don't want to subscribe to that. Ultimately, it's remembering all of those things that we were listening to were subconsciously programming our minds. We wonder why something is a good idea. We wrote it down but we can't seem to move forward to be motivated to do it, "I know I should do it. I know why I should do it. I know why it's important but I can't seem to get going."

Whenever that happens, it usually comes down to our subconscious programming. Knowing that the program is there is not enough. We have to actively reprogram our brain with the right thinking to move forward, be successful, believe in ourselves, walk in what God called us to do, utilize our leadership abilities, and carry out every vehicle he's given us to lead in with those abilities.

The apostle Paul said in Romans 12:2, "Don't be conformed to the world. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind." I read the New Testament with his epistles. Every day and every word, he was so focused and intentional, "I was there but now I'm here." If Paul had to do it every day when he was in the third Heaven, and he had some major inspiration, look at what we have to do. Be as intentional with that mind-renewing. It's not one-and-done. Derrick and Tavia, where is the best way for people to get ahold of you? What's the best way that our audiences can connect with you? I know they're going to want to.

If you want to start with some of those 200-plus flavors of popcorn, banana pudding, white chocolate, birthday cake, jalapeno ranch, Hot Cheetos, kettle corn, or some of those, you're going to go to TastebudsConcord.com. We're on social media. We're on every platform out there. It's going to be @TastebudsPopcornConcord. We're even on LinkedIn. We have a pretty thriving page that's fun to watch because we bring the fun everywhere we go. Those would be some of the most premier ways to get ahold of us.

You can also email us at Popcorn@TastebudsConcord.com. We would love to hear from you. We would love to hear your thoughts. We would love to hear how this may have impacted you and anything else you would like to share with us.

I love it. Make sure you stay in touch with them. Do you do specialty flavors too? If somebody had an idea, could they create one of their own?

Absolutely. We started Mix It Up Monday to have a tangible interaction with our popcorn patrons. We call them pop stars. In Mix It Up Monday, you're allowed to mix different flavors inside the same container. If your flavor is good enough, then it may become an official flavor. We will name it after whatever you want to name it.

We do baby showers, weddings, and corporate events. A lot of companies will say, "Can you do my company colors and things like that?" We also create them for various events and occasions.

I can't believe it. Thank you so much. Derrick and Tavia, thank you for sharing. You're such an inspiration and an encouragement. Thank you for utilizing all the talents that God has given you and for glorifying Him and raising your sweet little babies. Your success is somebody else's miracle. I love that you are continuing to bless others throughout your state and pushing through. Thank you for sharing with our audiences.

Thank you, Dr. Tracey.

I look forward to many more connections with you. I know we will have many more of them when I get down to North Carolina or you get up to Pennsylvania. To our tremendous audiences out there, I want to thank you so much for being a part of our Tremendous Tribe. If you like what you read, please hit the subscribe button and do us the honor of a review. A five-star review would be tremendous. Share this with others so they can hear great ways to encourage others. Keep on paying the price of leadership and have a tremendous rest of the day.

Important Links

• Tastebuds Popcorn Concord

• Nikita Koloff - Previous episode

• Now, Discover Your Strengths

• Mike Ettore - Previous episode

• @TastebudsPopcornConcord - Instagram

• LinkedIn - Tastebuds Popcorn Concord

• Popcorn@TastebudsConcord.com

• https://Linktr.ee/TastebudsPopcornConcord

About Derrick and Tavia Jackson

Derrick and Tavia Jackson are happily married, love the Lord, and own Tastebuds Popcorn Concord in Concord, NC. They have over a decade of experience in network marketing and leadership development. Tavia is a Veteran and served in the United States Marine Corps.

Episode 164 - Connie Martin - Leadership on Leadership

We always look at the top of the organization, especially when it comes to leadership. But what about the middle? How do leaders lead from the middle of the organization? In this episode, Connie Martin, the author of The Art of Picking Up Dog Poop, shares her insights on thriving and surviving when leading from the middle. She discusses the frustrations and challenges leaders feel as they hold the organization and its teams together. On a brighter note, she then shares the opportunities that can be found in the middle for growth. Giving us a peek into her book, Connie also describes feedback as dog poop. You don’t have to stick with it, you may process and deal with them, but when done, you can put it in a bag and throw it away. Get ready to grow as a leader by tuning in to this conversation.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Connie Martin - Leadership on Leadership

I have a very special guest, Connie Martin. Connie, welcome. It's nice to have you here. Connie is a dog lover. Right there, she went way up in our book. She's an owner with a degree in Computer Science and more than 25 years of technical leadership experience, navigating corporate and middle management. She enjoyed a short career in the military. She continued to grow through diverse technical and leadership assignments across multiple domains. Along the way, she has become a gifted mentor and facilitator who has learned how to solve problems creatively. Connie, welcome. We look forward to hearing your take on the price of leadership.

I'm excited.

I like to tell our audiences how Connie and I connected. We connected in 1983 in the beautiful land of enchantment at the New Mexico Military Institute or NMMI where I was a cadet, and so was Connie. It’s all those years ago. We're on LinkedIn. I get this email. She's like, "Remember?" I'm like, "Isn't that cool? Worlds were colliding." We reached out. We had a phone call and got caught up. I thought, "I got to have Connie because she has had a brilliant career and is a published author now." Connie, thank you so much. Forty years later, we get to share how we have transformed with the world.

What an adventure for sure.

First of all, The Price of Leadership is a speech my father gave many times. He says that the first price you have to pay in the price of leadership is loneliness. We have all heard that it's lonely at the top. Can you unpack what loneliness looks like for you as a leader and maybe give our audiences a word of wisdom or a tool that they can use if they are in a season of loneliness?

I spent a lot of time leading in the middle. If you're all the way at the top, it's a very lonely place. Even in the middle as a leader, your team is looking to you. Some of those tough spots are when you change jobs. You moved from one team where you're not the top dog but you've gained all the experience. You have the expertise, and then you take over a new team, and now you're the new person.

To make it even tougher, if you move and go from Colorado to Florida, now you know nobody. If you're in a new company, you know nobody. That's a lonely place. You've got to learn to trust some people, get to know them fast, learn their names, and figure out how they tick and what that landscape now looks like. You've got to adjust your approach.

That's situational leadership. That's good for leaders because a lot of times, especially in the military, you're there for a couple of years, and then you're somewhere else. Even in the corporate world, we have changed jobs. When you start, it's like starting a new school. You're always going to have that time but understand that you will get integrated.

It takes some time. Some teams will embrace you very quickly. I use a lot of icebreakers, "What's your favorite ice cream? Where are you from?" We went around the world one time, "Where were you born?" It was a lot of fun. In a team of 60, we had 2 native Floridians and a team of 65 sitting in Florida. I happened to be one of them who had moved from Colorado. That was fun. The icebreakers can help in getting to know your team.

I love it. That's the first one we have heard. Icebreakers are so crucial because my father would also say, "There's no communication without identification." There you find that commonality just like us. If you meet anybody that has been prior military even if it was for five minutes, it’s like there you have it. We're brothers and sisters. I love icebreakers. The next thing he talked about was weariness. You've been stressed out in jobs, and so have I. Being in the military is tough. How do you combat weariness and stay in top fighting form?

You have to take breaks if you see an opportunity. A lot of times, especially in the software business, we do peaks and valleys. It's peak time to get that delivery out. You're going to have to hit it hard and do what needs to get done but when you see that valley, as a leader, you have to make sure that your people take some time off during the valleys. If there are no valleys, then you've got a different problem. You have to talk about that. That's where burnout tends to show up. It’s when you never take a break. It keeps going on and on. You take a step back, reevaluate, and keep going forward. That's how I've overcome the weariness.

Burnout happens when you never take a break. Take a step back, reevaluate, and keep going forward.

That's interesting, especially for the audiences out there, those of you in the field. I was in tech for five years in Austin but it would come on strong. You would be working 100 hours a week and then throttling back layoffs, "I'm paying you to stay home." You learn to go with it. Entrepreneurship is like that. There are times when you're speaking three times a day and times when it's three times a month. I like that. Keep your eye out for the future and push hard, knowing that you're going to get a time of replenishment but also to watch for burnout. That's very sage wisdom. Thank you.

The next topic was abandonment. As dog lovers, we're not talking about abandoning a pet or fear of abandonment. This is about pruning out things that no longer are in your life helping you get to your highest and greatest purpose, be it a board, volunteerism, or people. You're growing. You got to suit up differently. How do you deal with abandonment? You transitioned into a different person probably several times.

On the abandonment side, I focus on some things like feedback. Everybody gets feedback. Everybody gets reviewed. You're walking down the hall, and somebody tells you something you probably ought to throw away. For me, the offenses and the feedback as a leader are the things that we have to sometimes abandon and walk away from. Process the emotions. Deal with them for today but don't let them stick because those become the chip on your shoulder and those triggers that show up out of nowhere, "How did I react that way?"

Those are the things that need to be put to the side and abandoned, especially some of that negative feedback. You want to grow. You want to process it and understand it but then you have to let it go because some of those can stick for years or decades. That's not good. Process the feedback for a day or maybe two, let the sting go, and then throw it away like dog poop.

I have never heard about abandoning the stink or the offenses. I love that you said, "Take it, listen to it for a day, and process the emotions, and then we're done." Own what you can but don't let it go because otherwise, that rumination or that critical spirit will absorb so much of your leadership persona, and you don't even realize it. That's when we get tired or weary from that internal friction of carrying these self-imposed emotions of anger and frustration. That's all self-imposed. I love that you can abandon it, "I'll own what I can own, and the rest I'm abandoning." Thank you for that.

We all make choices. We get to own our choices. We talk a lot about accountability. I flipped that around and said, "You made the choice, not own it. You have a choice on how you want to react, and only you can choose that." When we make those choices, we should own them.

We can't own whether the person did it or said it. All we can own is how we can react. That does not matter. They did. Let's not even carry that. There's no sense going there.

Let it go. Throw it away.

I love it. It's dog poo. Put it in a bag and throw it away.

Who knows? There would be wisdom.

I tell people, "Hound wisdom is twice as good as sound wisdom because it's got double the legs to stand on." Hound wisdom is a higher form of learning.

I like that. That's fun. That's awesome.

The last topic he talked about was vision. For technical operational girls like us, I would always sit there and go, "That's squishy and out there," but my dad would always say, "Vision is seeing what needs to be done and then putting a plan together to do it." I'm like, "It's the practical or the pragmatic side." What does vision look like for you and how you transitioned? You can tell our audiences about that. You're in the next chapter of your life. How did you cast out that vision? How are you using that to create the next future version of Connie?

One of the times, I did get some feedback that I decided to hold on to for a little bit. Everybody sits in these meetings and forgives the meetings. I appreciate I don't have as many of that now that I'm not in Corporate America anymore. We would be talking about how you could take a system from here to there. I would get what they're saying and then zoom, "I'm over here. I'm ready to go. I've got the vision. I caught it." The rest of my team is sitting way back over here at the beginning. I'm like, "You've got to walk them through it. When you do that, they will come along and get the buy-in that you need to go where you're going to go."

That's one that stuck that said, "Let's take that vision and get the team to rally around it so then everybody can go there. As it shifts, this let's retire." I cast that vision eight years ago. Somebody said, "You should write a book." I'm like, "I got all these good stories. Maybe I'll write a book." It turned into, "I'm writing a book.,” and then it's done. It's out in the middle of a pandemic. Maybe I can focus on this book thing and see what happens next. I'm excited to see where we're going to go around the corner and what that next adventure around the bend might be.

Leading From The Middle: Leading From The Middle: Let's take that vision and get the team to rally around it so then everybody can go there.

We're going to talk to our audiences about that so they can hear about that and support that. I love that you said, "Vision isn't about the leader because if the followers don't get the scent and the buy-in for the vision, I don't care how talented you are. You can't do it alone." We're not meant to do anything alone. That spoke to me. As soon as the words come out, I'm like, "Where is everybody?" I love that you said that. I got feedback on that too. I'm always thankful that we have leaders that will appreciate that.

I always tell people, "It's always easier to rein somebody in than trying to push the rope or the needle," but I still needed to hear that and say, "Vision is a shared enterprise." You may see it but it may take some people some time to process it. That's sage wisdom. We did loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Is there anything else that you want to share with our audiences on the topic of leadership?

I created a company called Words from the Meander. I got a lot of feedback on the meander but I chose it because, in addition to wandering aimlessly, it's also the middle course of a river where all the action is and all of the twists, turns, and things that we get asked to do. I wrote a book about leading from the middle. I used a dog poop story to set the stage. You've stepped in it. Everybody can relate to what happens when the bag breaks. Those set the stage for some of those hard conversations.

We talk about what it looks like in the middle of the organization. You're going to see a few things in the middle because you're the glue that you may not see at the top. Not everybody wants to get to the director, the CEO, or the corner office, but there are a ton of opportunities sitting in the middle of the organization. Here's the thing. Everybody has to go through it. Everybody has to get their stripes, understand, and get the experience. There are some things in leadership. You can't learn it from a book. You have to go and do it. You have to try, take that risk, and see what happens.

I like that. Talking about your website, tell us also about the book and how people can get a copy of that.

It's in all the outlets. It has been out for a while in hard copy but the audiobook is coming out in a couple of weeks. We're very excited about that because I put it in my own voice. I did all the editing and production. I'm very excited. We got a couple of more weeks on the blooper reel but it's coming as well. You can buy my book on my website at WordsFromTheMeander.com. It should be available also on all the other ones. If you want a signed copy, you got to go to my website. You will look for some discounts there as well.

The Art of Picking Up Dog Poop: Leading from the Middle

It's The Art of Picking Up Dog Poop: Leading from the Middle. I love it. For our audiences out there, you've heard Connie's background. She's a technical girl with decades of experience in leading technical teams. If you want to reach out to her now that she's in a free entrepreneurial role to share her wisdom and all she has learned about it, please reach out to her. Connie, do you coach? Do you go into organizations? Who is your ideal client?

The ideal client is those younger leaders or technical folks that now have taken on a leadership role. They are looking to gain some more of those skills in scheduling, planning, and all the stuff that they don't focus on when they're in the technical role. I would love to be able to come in and facilitate meetings and help folks get to their next best opportunities. I would love to come and speak. You can find me on my website.

Pick up your book for a book club too. That's awesome.

I do have a discussion guide out there that could help people grow their unique leadership styles. That's the other piece that I'm very passionate about. We can copy what everybody else does but then it's not authentic. What we want is authentic leadership. They're going to follow you because they trust you and not necessarily what somebody else did.

For us, otherwise, it's exhausting when you try and lead like somebody else. You will keep drifting. You won't be yourself. Life has a funny thing about always reorienting back that freedom. Joy only comes from being yourself. You will start attracting those other followers that resonate with that leadership style. Connie, let's not make it another 40 years.

No doubt. That would be too long.

We will be like The Golden Girls then.

Thank you so much for having me.

That's not bad to be The Golden Girls.

There you go.

I love it. Thank you so much. It was an honor. Thank you for your wisdom. You gave us some wonderful pearls to digest. Our audiences out there are going to be truly blessed by this. Thank you again, Connie.

Thank you. I appreciate you having me.

You're welcome. To our audiences out there, thank you so much for being a part of our Tremendous Tribe. If you like what you heard, please be sure and hit the subscribe button. If you would leave us the honor of a five-star review, we would be so thankful for that. Make sure you subscribe, like, share, and get in touch with Connie. Get her book. Reach out to her, especially if you're in technical fields, and you have leaders new to the field that know how to lead people, not just manage processes and products. That's such an important thing. Thank you so much, everyone, for paying the price of leadership and being a part of our Tremendous Tribe. Have a tremendous rest of your day.

 Important Links

• Words from the Meander

• The Art of Picking Up Dog Poop: Leading from the Middle

About Connie Martin

Connie Martin is a dog lover and owner with a degree in computer science and more than twenty-five years of technical leadership experience navigating corporate and middle management. She enjoyed a short career in the military and continued to grow through diverse technical and leadership assignments across multiple domains. Along the way, she has become a gifted mentor and facilitator who has learned how to solve problems creatively.

Episode 163 - Mike Ettore - Leaders On Leadership

Leadership is lifelong learning. No one becomes a leader on day one; you have to grow into it. If you want to be a great one, then you’ll know that the process is never-ending. Diving deep into leadership in this episode, Dr. Tracey Jones sits down with Mike Ettore. Mike is the founder of Fidelis Leadership Group, where he has devoted himself to his passion for helping others develop into world-class leaders. Bringing that experience as well as his military background to the show, he offers fresh insights into the different prices of leadership he encountered along the way. Mike is also the author of Trust-Based Leader, and he gives us a peek into the book by sharing why trust plays an important role in leading. He also emphasizes the need to build the right company culture and why character should be non-negotiable. Full of great wisdom to add to your leadership resource, this conversation is a must-read! Tune in to not miss out.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Mike Ettore - Leaders On Leadership

In this episode, our guest is the one, the only, the tremendous Mike Ettore. Mike, welcome.

Thank you so much for the invitation, Dr. Tracey. I'm pleased and thrilled to be here.

Thanks, Mike. Mike and I only just connected. I got an email from his site when I was in Israel, requesting that I be on his podcast. We're going to talk about Mike, his message, his podcast, and what he's doing for leaders at the end of the show. Of course, I agreed and after I heard all about his leadership chops, I knew I had to have him on our show.

Let me tell you a little bit about Mike. He has served in leadership roles for many years. He's earned a reputation for being an exceptionally effective leader and is known for achieving superior results in a wide range of challenging environments. In addition to having retired as a Marine Corps infantry officer and decorated combat leader, he also served successfully as the C-Suite executive in Kforce Inc. It’s a publicly traded professional services firm with annual revenue in excess of $1 billion. You’re going to get some military leadership and some C-Suite leadership.

Over the course of his Marine Corps and business careers, Mike was highly regarded for being an exceptionally effective mentor and developer of leaders. After retiring from Kforce in 2013, Mike founded Fidelis Leadership Group and has devoted himself to his greatest passion, helping others develop into world-class leaders. He has successfully coached and mentored executives and senior leaders from a wide range of industries and is sought after for his expertise in all aspects of leadership development and the creation of leadership training programs.

In addition to being a lifelong student of leadership, Mike has earned Master's degrees in Business Administration and Management. He's also the author of four books devoted to the topics of leadership and leadership development. I can't wait for our guest to hear more about this. Mike, I am truly honored.

Thank you so much. I am as well. I think you mentioned it already. This is my passion. I'm still learning, but I love leadership and I do this for the rest of my life. I help leaders develop and maximize their potential. Thank you.

You’re welcome. Leaders who say they're done and they know it all, I tell them, “You have to relinquish your leadership crown because leadership is lifelong learning,” and you absolutely know that. That's why our guests are tuning in here. Let's get right into this, Mike. My father gave a speech called The Price of Leadership many decades ago. I'm sure you as a speaker, the number one topic people are craving for training and development on is leadership.

The first price that he said that a leader has to pay is Loneliness. We've all heard the saying, “Lonely is the head that wears the crown,” but loneliness means different things to different people. Could you unpack what loneliness means for you as a leader and perhaps sometimes where you dealt with it throughout your career in the military or in the civilian sector, and some words of advisement you would give to our readers?

I've read your dad's speech, which he turned into a book and you've turned into a book. I love it. I’m a big fan of your dad. That's how I reached out to you, Dr. Tracey. I'm like, “It's got to be his daughter.” Thanks for that connection. Leadership can be lonely. How I interpret that personally and what my experience has been, if you're an effective leader, you are going to have to make decisions that not everybody is going to agree with or even see the wisdom behind your decision at first. That's when it can get lonely.

A leader at every level of experience has to hold fast to his or her courage of their convictions and to know, “I've sought your input. I've made a decision. We're going this way,” and stand firm. I'm not talking about being a dictator, but to stand firm even in the face of criticism and rolling of the eyes and all that. We've all had that and we've all done that. We've all been the follower that didn't understand the decision a leader made until later and sometimes years later. You are like, “I appreciate that gal more now than ten years ago when she was my boss.”

The courage of convictions. If you're leading well in a challenging environment, there are going to be challenges, sometimes volatile challenges, that options A, B, and C are all pretty close to each other. They all might work, but for various reasons, you as the leader decide to go a certain way and you got to stand fast. I tell people to follow their moral compass as a leader. Leaders who follow their moral compass often feel lonely, but they never feel lost. They know.

It’s that true north. I'm big on metaphors, analogies, and examples. As you know, the true north, the Earth turns, and the stars change but the true north remains in the same position. We have to have a true north and if you stick to your true north, at times, it's going to be a lonely endeavor. You have to have the courage of your convictions and hold fast because you know you're doing the right thing. It’s not necessarily the correct thing, which the HR manual says, “The right thing.” That's why we get paid the big bucks.

I was at a conference in Boeing and they said, “Decision-making is such a mark of leadership and we get paid the big bucks to make those decisions.” Somebody said, “What if there are several decisions that are all very close?” I love that you put that. I would say your mission, your North Star or your convictions do it but I love that you put, “You can be lonely, but you're not lost,” because sometimes, all you have is your convictions. I know sometimes people think, “You're in the military. You're following everybody and you're in this thing.” It even gets lonely in the military at times, does it not?

It absolutely does. They are unlike in the business world where profit is at stake and sales statistics and all that. In the military, even in a training environment, lives are at stake. In combat, nobody argues with that. Everybody knows lives are at stake. In my 24 years as a Marine, enlisted, and officer, I always found that the need to exercise moral courage, which is associated often with periods of loneliness, is more in peacetime.

It's driving my Marines hard in training. It’s so hard that they often wonder, “Why does it have to be this hard?” They never truly understand it until we get in combat and they say, “In some ways, this was easier than the training.” However, when you're pushing people hard and they're at peace and all of that, even the Marines are often like, “Do we have to run this far? Do we have to stay this hot and tired all the time?” The answer is yes, you do.

I've had times in the Marines where my first sergeant or enlisted leaders would come to me or junior officers and say, “Sir, we know you're all about combat readiness and training. We might want to let up. We're going awful hard.” Sometimes they were right and I eased up and other times, I had a different set of experiences and I'd say, “I hear you. We're going to go a little bit further.” That's where you have to be right and have the courage of your convictions.

To your point, Tracey, I wanted to go back and cover the person that asked you the thing. Sometimes, there are several different options and they all seem right. A little tidbit that I would offer on that is you have to make decisions, but whenever your team leaders or your teammates offer a suggestion that is at least as good as yours go with theirs. When in doubt, go with their solution. If your solution is A, you favor A, but they come up with B. If B will work, go with B every time. Everybody loves being listened to and our advice and recommendations acted upon. It's a golden opportunity for leaders. I couldn't pass up that opportunity to express my views on that.

I loved being listened to and even in the military but what a way to make sure that you are lonely because nobody wants to be around you. As I said, the buck stops with us. By virtue of that, when heads are on the chopping block, it's only us. That's when we stand alone but I love that at other times. You're so right about peacetime and that training for when the balloon goes up, it’s the same thing in Corporate America. I know you know this. Your reputation is built one decision at a time.

You have to always be on point and hyper-attentive too. If I have to stand and do the right thing and not the popular thing, what the profitable thing is even sometimes. I love that you put that loneliness is going to hit you every day, but when you say that, you're going to say that because in the end, there is going to be a payoff and you're going to stand firm.

I agree with that. One of the most recent examples that we both know about is COVID hit and literally, the country shut down. We're not coming to work. The remote workforce was thrust upon a whole lot of non-believers and I knew many of them. I was fortunate I embraced it early on. I believed and knew that this could work and so did many others. I'm not anything unique in that regard. I have a large following on LinkedIn. I posted almost every day. I saw people saying, “Now that we're in COVID, we're all remote. It's a great opportunity to build a company's culture.”

I opined. Ladies and gentlemen, this is just Mike Ettore's opinion. It's too late. You are entering COVID with the culture that you've already created. If you're saying, “Now we're going to go remote and we got to be good. We got to be organized. We have to have the character of accuracy and reporting.” It's too late. Can you catch up? Sure, but the old adage, “You go to war with the unit you have, not the unit you would love to have, the equipment, the training, the integrity, the SOPs, and all of that.”

“You go to war with the unit you have and not the unit you would love to have.”

Early on when you were introducing me, I'll make this editorial comment. Marine leadership and C-Suite leadership are no different. I maintained that I led civilians exactly like I led Marines with minuscule adaptation. You have that experience with the military to the business world. People are people. Many do buy off on the stereotypical Rambo and full metal jacket. They think that's how I led them. It's not like that.

In boot camp, there's a whole lot of yelling going on there. I was a drill instructor when I was enlisted. You wouldn't want to know. I called that my savage phase. Aside from that, I have never seen anything in the corporate world even close to the amount of love and compassion from leader to lead that I witnessed in the Marine Corps. I know the other services are no different. I love the Marines. I punish them and I train the hell out of them.

That is love. Rebuke is part of tough love.

I loved them and that leads to my next statement. To be a good leader, you at least have to like people and know that they're going to be bringing you problems. To be an exceptional leader, you have to love people to the point where the biggest thrill you ever get is seeing them do well and greatly eclipse your own accomplishments, which I've experienced so much now.

Develop Leaders: To be an exceptional leader, you have to love people to the point where the biggest thrill you ever get is seeing them do well and greatly eclipse your own accomplishments.

You talked about a basic premise as a leader is to know they're going to be bringing you problems. That dovetails nicely into the next Price of Leadership after loneliness which is Weariness. You not only have the responsibilities of being a leader, but you've got different people's responsibilities. You've got regulations. You're a publicly traded company, so you have global transparency in your reputation, but you then have people bringing you problems. How do you deal with weariness as a leader when you have this responsibility put on you?

I'll back up and preface it with this. I teach that there are two types of friction. External friction like COVID. We couldn't do anything about it. COVID was stressed upon us. Also, there is internal friction. Internal is often called self-imposed friction. Where I'm going with this, Tracey, is a leader who is going to get very weary very quickly if he or she has not trained and delegated to their people.

If that leader is doing 8 pounds of the 10 pounds of that unit's work, they're going to get tired very quickly. If they've learned to develop their teams and subordinate leaders, then they're maybe doing 2 pounds of it, supervising the rest of it through their leaders. It’s the classic officer, NCO delegation technique, and all of that. I'd say the first piece of advice for a leader, especially new ones, is the quicker you realize that nobody expects you to know everything. Nobody expects you to know it all. Nobody certainly expects you to do it all. The quicker you realize that and deputize your people.

I go this way. This is how I've avoided it. I develop subordinate leaders by asking the three big questions. I maintain that they produce the answers to almost all of the organization's ills. I tell my people when I first get there, “Here's the deal. You have to trust me. I trust you. We have a culture of trust here. I'll never shoot the messenger, but I'm going to ask you three questions. What should we start doing? What should we stop doing? What should we do differently?”

If they trust you, you can sit back and they will list 99% of the issues and friction points in that organization at every level. I tell them if you're going to bring problems, you have to bring proposed solutions as well. As a C-level executive, I used to tell my leaders, and it's going to sound harsh but I'll explain it, “Bring me problems, but don't bring me your problems.”

They would look and I'd say, “Let me explain. I'm here for you. I'm here to help you. My main duty is to feed you and make you prosperous and successful. Remove challenges, give you the best equipment, and clear roadblocks. I'm here to help you solve problems. I'm not here to give you directions and advice on problems and issues that are well within your pay grade. You have to do that.”

They come to my office and I say, “I got to be honest with you. I know the answer to this or I at least have an answer for you, but this is not something that you're supposed to be coming to me for. I want you to go back and reflect. Come back to me tomorrow and bring me the proposed solutions. I'll give you my opinion on the solution, but if you're coming to me for, ‘Mike, this happened. What should I do?’”

I'm never going to do that unless you come to me and say, “Mike, I've got this situation going on. I don't know what to do. I need your advice.” My immediate response would be, “Susan, I hear you. Have you consulted your colleagues?” In other words, before you come to me, have you leveraged the knowledge, experience, insights, and recommendations within your team and across the organization with your colleagues because all of them are exponentially smarter and wiser than me?

It's a little bit of tough love. Don't darken my doorstep with a problem that is yours to solve. You have to stand firm. Getting back to the original question, it preserved my ability to develop them. It's like with you're mom and dad. Your dad, I'm sure at one point, said, “Tracey, get back out there and solve it. This is yours to solve.” I'm not dealing with children in the business world, the concept is the same.

Don't darken my doorstep with a problem that is yours to solve.

Coming into the military, we know a lot of who you are assigned. The beauty of the military is every couple of years, you get transferred so you're constantly getting a flux of new people. In Kforce, which is a bigger resource to pull from, how are you doing this as an entrepreneur with your business? The old decision-making or critical thinking is never to make a decision that you can delegate to your lieutenants… provided you have excellent lieutenants. How do you do that because a huge portion of our listenership, including law, is an entrepreneur now? I don't have a big talent full of people. Tell me how you do that with Fidelis Leadership Group.

To your point, I teach that. Don't bring me your problems and all of that. That assumes that there's a level of infrastructure there and that you have somebody to delegate to. I'll use the Kforce analogy. I was there for almost fifteen years as a C-Suite executive. My direct reports, I generally had 3 to 5 direct reports. Most of them reported to me for over ten years. Early on in the first few years, it was a lot of hands-on mentoring by Mike because they didn't know how to solve some problems.

When a problem surfaced with Don and his department, I would get Don, Dustin, Susie, and Fred all together and say, “Don has got this problem.” I turn it into a teachable moment. Over the years, they got good. I'll be honest with you, Tracey. Probably for the last 5 years of my 15 years, my biggest challenge was staying out of their way. At that point, I make a joke. My biggest value-add was getting them coffee and getting their offer early and turning the lights on. They were super good and even better. It wasn’t that they were good for me.

When I left, they all moved on to bigger and better things operating at levels greater than I've ever operated on. I'm just so thrilled for them. Early on though, I had to train them up. Entrepreneurs often don't have that full staff. It's a monetary or a budget thing and I would say, “Get enough. Get the critical stuff as soon as you can but your job as an entrepreneur is the things that you're doing in year one that are necessary. You're bootstrapping it.” If you're still doing those things with 3 employees or when you've got 33 employees, something is wrong.

That's brilliant because sometimes, we grow at different rates where we don't have 30. I love to delegate. I dream of delegation until you have the profitability that you can hire the best to start offloading this. I appreciate you saying that because I get a lot as an entrepreneur, “If you're busy, you should just hire people.” Trust me. I understand leadership and contracting government state and private. It's different when you're bootstrapping. I appreciate you sharing that because a lot of our readers are out there wondering, “How do I manage this workload?”

I love that you said if you're doing the same stuff when you had 3 as you do at 30 because that's a wonderful way to quantify it and say something is amiss. It frustrates entrepreneurs to go, “Stop doing what you're doing.” Who's going to do it? Especially if you're a solopreneur, like a lot of our readers.

If you're solo, it intends to get wider. What I say is this. Let's say the entrepreneur understands that. I'm going to hire some people and delegate. I know you'll agree with this. I tell people, “Leadership is all about humans. It’s human nature.” The minute that one person adds one other person to the equation, it now becomes a leadership situation. Entrepreneurs are usually very smart and they've got a good product. They're whip-smart in some cases. Sometimes, they boil your brain smart but I would encourage them to sit back and realize that nobody all of a sudden hit them on the head with the leadership stick and made them competent leaders.

Hiring leaders and wanting to delegate to them is noble. Being competent at it is a skill that the entrepreneur must learn and I see entrepreneurs failing to recognize that. They do the right thing. Their staff grows. They want to grow but they're terrible and inefficient leaders. That's why you see so many companies getting acquired and the first big move is the entrepreneur is gone. You can't scale leadership.

Develop Leaders: Hiring leaders and wanting to delegate to them is noble. Being competent at it is a skill that the entrepreneur must learn.

As you said at the beginning, just because you're a leader, it is different than leadership. I can be a great leader of myself, but leading others is completely different. Thank you for unpacking that. For people like me and yo, and a huge portion of our listenership is transitioning with the goal of taking all the wonderful leadership lessons they've learned. Now you're doing this. I got a gentleman and it’s his last day of working for somebody else. Now he's going off to do his own thing. He's a Marine too. I know he is going to love this.

Entrepreneurs all know that as they grow their businesses. They got to learn contracting and accounts payable. The best advice I can give you is leadership is a learned skill and you have to learn it. Mike Ettore was formally trained as a leader. As a young teenage Marine, I was first in charge of people when I was eighteen years old. I'm 66 years old now in 2023, I retired as a C-level executive at 57. I got to tell you, what I've learned from 57 to 66, I sit there every week and I'm like, “How did I not know this? How did I not see this?” The journey is never over. They have to be at least cognizant that they have to start the journey. It's a conscious decision to start their leadership journey.

Loneliness, weariness, the next topic my father talked about was Abandonment. He talked about abandonment as what you need and ought to focus on rather than what you like and want to think about. I can remember him telling me when I was a young lady. He said, “Tracey, I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success.”  I'm looking at him like, “Are you kidding me? You're the most successful person I know.”

He's like, “No. There's so much extra stuff, non-value-added stuff in my life. Every day, you have to abandon and prune.” Can you unpack how you stay hyper-focused? In the military, we got our orders, even in the corporate world. Now, how do you abandon this stuff because you're also growing and transitioning? You're relearning and unlearning. How's this work for you, Mike?

That is a learned skill as well. I love that you are using the word prune. I use that quite a bit. When I teach executives and leaders, I say, “You have to prune the meeting tree every six months or meetings grow. You have to prune the reports tree. You have to prune.” Like a tree and a real bush, it grows and sometimes the leaves start obscure in the path.

You got to get out there with your clippers and shear them off and all of that. I would say one of the first things that a leader, especially an entrepreneur needs to know is self-awareness. Where are you spending your time? As an executive coach, Tracey, I know you do the same thing. When I go in and I coach senior executives, these are successful people by anybody's standards. I say this publicly. The first thing I do with all clients is, “Show me your schedule.” They print out the weekly schedule and they're usually very proud, “Do you see how busy I am?”

I'm like, “You are a C-level guy. That's not a C-level schedule.” They're like, “What do you mean? I am in meetings from 7:30 AM to 6:00 PM. I have some at 8:00 PM.” I said, “Right, but you and 4 or 5 other C-level guys are the only people formally tasked with looking beyond this year.” The guy in the shipping dock, the IT guy, nobody else is charged formally with looking over the horizon. What's the equipment you're going to use three years from now?

Show me on the schedule where are your feet on the desk contemplating and reflecting time. Where is that? You know where I'm going next. I put them through an exercise. I want you to go through and identify which meetings you don't need to be at and which meetings you could go to every other week. I tell people to be cognizant of every single thing they do. Now I'm talking at the executive level. These guys and gals are making a lot of money and they're not paying you to do PowerPoint presentations. They're paying you for your mind, brain, influence, and presence.

It’s the same thing with entrepreneurs. I would track everything I do and can somebody else do it? If you're an entrepreneur or somebody else isn't there, you'll know that there's a certain point in time when it is time to hire that person. I coach small ascending companies that are doing well. I tell them, “It's time for you to make your two most important hires of this phase in your life cycle.”

They're all like, “What is that Mike?” I say, “You need a bonafide, full-grown bear finance person. Right now, you've got an accountant who's admirable and doing a good job, but she doesn't have the CFO-level acumen skill. You're making money. She doesn't know where to leverage the money and all. She stays beyond our skillset so you got to get a bonafide finance person.” This shocks them. “You need to get an executive assistant.” They are like, “What?” I said, “Executive assistant/ops assistant.”

From this point forward, shame on you if you and any of your leaders are banging out PowerPoint presentations, making plane reservations, or ordering lunch. These are all important tasks that need to be done and you're too good to do them. I'll describe what I'm saying so your readers truly know it. Computers were new in the Marine Corps. I only had a computer at my last duty station. I typed emails in all caps. That shift key was too much for a grunt. At Kforce, we had computers and all that.

As I joined the business world in '99, I never learned PowerPoint. I went through a fifteen-year by some people's standards highly successful C-level career, I never ever knew how to make a PowerPoint presentation. Now, I caused hundreds of them to be made, and here's what I did. I would get computer printer paper, and I would say slide one on the left. I'd draw, “I want these words. Number two, these words and these words.”

On my way into a meeting, Jessica, my executive assistant would be there. I say, “Jess, PowerPoint presentation.” This is a presentation on IT to the CEO of IT proposals. She would take it, “I got it, Mike.” She had the templates and all of that. I'd go into an hour meeting and on the way out, she'd have the first draft and it's a PowerPoint presentation printed out. I would go back to my desk, answer some emails, look at them, and say, “Change this and do that.”

On my way to the next meeting, I'd hand it back. Over the course of the day, I went from nothing to scribbling on pieces of paper to a PowerPoint presentation that was probably 90% done. Now, I could send that presentation to other people. To hold that thought, I used to tell my subordinate leaders at the highest level, “Better not let me catch you bend in keys.”

I'm okay if you go in and change happy to glad but if you're starting and creating it, and I'm seeing you traumatized over, “I can't get this font size right,” I'm going to be all over you. That's not what the corporation is paying you for. A finance guy, executive assistant, ops assistant, or whatever you want to call that person is worth their weight and gold as you know.

Develop Leaders: A finance guy, executive assistant, ops assistant, or whatever you call that person is worth their weight in gold.

The beauty for entrepreneurs and solopreneurs is they have a lot of fabulous virtual assistants now.

I was going there. Fidelis is just me and I have a VP of Ops, Nancy. She makes me look good continuously. She was a former Marine as well. She was one of my students at one point. I hired her husband into Kforce. He’s a great person. The rest of it, graphics, modules, PDFs, and bending electrons are all from Upwork. I found good people. I do a lot of book summaries for my clients.

I'm finding a book. This is a good book but I can't get executives to read a 400-page book. I especially can't ask them to do it before next week's session. What I do is I have good writers. I say, “That book right there, a 10,000-word executive summary.” They know my format. We've talked. Sure enough, a week later, it's to Mike Ettore. I pay them when I got it. I probably put four hours into it Ettore-sizing it. I send it to Nancy. I can write well, but colon and semicolon, that’s Nancy. I'm not good at that.

Nancy blesses it. She says, “It's good to go, Mike.” I go over to Upwork and format it in a PDF module. The next thing you know, we have a world-class book summary. I've outsourced everything except me looking at it and saying, “I would say it this way. I would say it that way.” I got to tell you, I have found talent on Upwork that is incredible. I'm doing well financially with the business, but it doesn't make sense for me to hire a full-time person that I'm only going to use for 3 or 4 hours a week.

I couldn't agree more and I'm so glad you brought that up because you can find wonderful people. Upwork is one that I use and Fiverr for some of my more creative stuff. Upwork is definitely on there. Loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and the last one is Vision, which Charles said, “It is nothing more than seeing what needs to be done and doing it because otherwise, you're only writing stuff down.” Talk to me about how you hone and craft your vision. How do you ignite your vision? How do you position the cast?

That's a big one for me. I trained as a Marine. There is something that goes all the way back to Clausewitz and Napoleon. The US Military has used something called The Principles of War for over 100 years and they're pretty standard among the services. If you follow these principles, the operation usually has a good chance of going well. If you violate them, you probably are not going to do all that. The very first principle of war, which I now call The Principle of Business is objective. What are you trying to accomplish? If you don't have that, you're punching in the dark. You're not going to hit anything. On a personal level and if you check my website, it has Mike Ettore. It's got my picture there and it says, “My purpose.”

If you read those 2 or 3 paragraphs, you'll know what the purpose of my life is. It's to train leaders while I'm alive and after I'm gone. Your dad is still training leaders. He is still impacting people because he left things behind. In that aspect, I am emulating your dad and other old-timers, so to speak. I'm sure he was emulating.

We all emulate Socrates, the Stoics, and the ancient guys that wrote things down because when it comes to the human condition, I find that these guys had it figured out 2,000 years ago. Probably the first leadership ever written was the Bible. If you look at it, there is not a heck of a lot of leadership situations that are not covered in that book if you apply to it. They're talking about humans back then and human nature. Hopefully, I gave you something.

The objective was what are you trying to accomplish? I love that you said the what word. We get a lot of this. “Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this?” If you don't know why you're showing up or why you're putting the uniform, you shouldn't have said, “What are you trying to accomplish,” because it's like a flight plan. If you can't tell me what you want to do, and you know this as a coach, I can't help you get there. Most people struggle with that because that takes a lot of introspection. That was the first principle of war. What were the other two?

There are several of them but what I'd like to reinforce is this. You're exactly right. We have something in the military called Commander's Intent. The intent is the what. To your point, nobody in a business, a company, a family, or whatever should ever wonder what the objective is. Objectives must be stated and unless you absolutely have to, a leader should refrain from stating how. Let your people come up creatively and do it.

You must state the objectives unless you have to. A leader should refrain from stating how. Let your people come up creatively and do it.

The analogy that I use in my book is it's been mandated from above that the goal for the sales force is to include top-line growth and gross profit. Go out and get us deals where there's more gross profit. The regional manager is on vacation, the office manager is sick, and the salesperson is out on a client and has a deal right in front of her. It's like, “You got to tell me if you're taking this deal right now.” She can't call her office manager. The regional guy is out but she knows the intent is to get deals that increase gross profit so she commits to the company.

When those two people come back from being sick or on vacation, they are like, “Yes.” What they don't want to do is come back and hear her say, “I had this deal, but you weren't there to give me permission.” They'd be like, “No, Sarah. Go for it.” I ask in the book and I put a little guilt trip on people, “Are your leaders, sales and non-sales, equipped or empowered to accomplish the what? Have you empowered them or are they sitting there waiting for explicit directions?”

Open the milk. Pour it into a glass. Drink it. Go wash your glass. You're not going anywhere quickly at all. I know you deal a lot with entrepreneurs. I find a lot of entrepreneurs who haven't learned leadership and the importance of delegation that when they delegate, they often delegate and dictate. They think they are training well, but what they are training is they're training robots that will respond to commands. That's bad. You want people to say, “I know what the intent or the vision.”

We're saying vision and intent. For the purpose of our discussion, it is the same thing. People should never wonder, “What is it that they want my team, my department, my region, my company? What's our goal? What's the mission? We agreed that we're going to do it this way, but that way is now on the ground level out in the sales force and the business arena. It seems like the bridge is out. We can't do it but we can still accomplish the intent by going around and skirting the issue.”

Never skirt ethics, character, or laws, but get creative. Entrepreneurs, I find, are the most creative people in figuring out needs and developing products, systems, and services, but they're often not all that attuned to engaging the creativity of their people and accomplishing the vision. It all goes back to leadership as a learned skill and everybody needs to accept the fact that they have to learn that skill.

It reminds me of my favorite Patton quote. “Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.”

Patton had it.

He was a tough man but the expectation was, “Message Garcia.” Whenever I ask people to do something and then they ask me 50 questions, I hand him a little Message to Garcia and I'm like, “Read this and you know what to do.”

To your earlier point, it was a great quote but what that implies is that the leader that he's talking to has teammates that are competent.

That's why it keeps going back to you. I think it was Patton too or one of them said, “Always delegate to lieutenants… provided you have excellent lieutenants.” I got to tell you and I'm sure everybody here who is reading, I don't want to have to write a process for, “Open the milk, get a glass, and pour it in,” yet a lot of people in the workforce now are like, “Well, well.” You have to get people with initiative too.

We can set the intent, but then we're adults. We're thinking. We have this frontal cortex. We have Google and everything. You got to have people with the initiative because if I spend every day writing down policies, I'm not too big to fail. I am not going to be in business. You got to be quick, especially for entrepreneurs. My lieutenants have to have that industriousness and enterprising. I can figure it out. Mike, this isn't rocket science. Anybody can figure this out but not if you're waiting to be told something.

I agree. The quality that you're describing as I label it is called Bias For Action. It s a big Marine Corps warfighting term. We say from the corporal all the way through the senior officer ranks, “You have to have a bias for action.” When we train for combat, we simulate real combat conditions. Real combat conditions mean, “The captain is not going to give you any instruction because the captain is dead. By the way, the radios don't work. The bridge that we are going to go across is not there.”

Those situations in combat always happen. There's a mandate. I think it might have been Patton. Somebody said, “No battle plan survives the first shot,” and it's true. You don't want a military leader out there facing that kind of uncertainty for the very first time in combat. We trained to it heavy. For example, going on nighttime raids and helicopters. It wasn't uncommon for our battalion commander to be there and surreptitiously kidnap a captain, “You come with me.”

Nobody knew the captain wasn't there. The helicopters fly away. They land, “Where the hell is the captain?” I saw that happen one time and the unit stayed there paralyzed. The captain was back in the COC. He wanted to see what the XO would say, “No, captain. I got it.” Another time, he put a unit out there. He gave us missions, but then he gave them a mission to do something. Block this bridge or something, knowing full well the bridge wasn't there.

They kept calling back for instructions and he wouldn't answer them so they just stayed there. Two other units had similar nebulous impossible missions. Despite the fact that they couldn't talk and received no instructions, they took action and did it right. He didn't chew anybody's throat out after that. He got us together. Tracey, it was continuous in that unit. I was a lieutenant. He would always throw stuff in the game to the point where I was involved in the liberation of Grenada.

I'm flying in now. It’s combat experience and flying at a low level over the ocean pre-dawn. I was the lead helicopter. I’m going to be the lead helicopter for my company. I was expecting to land in a large field, about four football fields large. I was supposed to land and go secure the Northeast corner. The rest of the company would come and then another company and we're going to start the operation. I'm ready to go. We got this plan. We got no maps because there were no maps of it. There was no real communication.

They fly us in treetops and I'm looking out of the window. It’s like an apocalypse now. I'm flying in and I see palm trees coming up. We pop over the palm trees. It starts landing and putting myself and my Marines on the side of a fenced-in soccer stadium. I'm like, “No.” It's like a shooting gallery. I go up to the crew chief and I was like, “No.” The squadron commander is a very experienced guy. I knew who he was. He turned around and said, “Go.” My first thought was, “Common on, Colonel. Not here. You're still playing with us.” My captain landed minutes later and said, “Mike, do you have any idea where you're at?”

I said, “I have no idea, sir. I don't know whether we're on the East side, the West side, the North side, or whatever.” We figured it out. We did not sit there and say, “Who's that?” That's a dramatic example but I would ask the people reading this, “Are your people sitting out there because you're at lunch and they can't talk? Are they sitting there paralyzed in that soccer stadium awaiting instruction?”

There were no instructions. I couldn't talk to anybody. The communications were out. People like us face these decisions all the time. I'm sure you had similar stuff in the military where you are tasked to do something. You generally agree that we're going to go down this route and then that route is not tenable anymore. It's up to Major Tracey and Captain Smith to figure it out.

I love that bias for action. It happens when I was out of the office for two days in St. Louis. I'm not here. My day is maxed up. I've got things going on and I love that everybody on the team has to have a bias for action. If I have to get involved, I don't want to get involved. Something is not right. We’ve been working together for years. I love that you put it. That's a great way.

For one final qualifier, we say in the Marines, “You have to have a bias for action, but that doesn't mean you run to your death. We've trained you. You know what the vision and the intent are. Use your judgment. We risk Marines’ lives. We don't gamble with Marines because gamble means they either live or they die. Risk means we might take some casualties.” Bias for action does not mean the entrepreneur just lets us people do whatever. They use judgment and they behave in a manner that still will accomplish the entrepreneurs' overall intent in their mission.

Develop Leaders: Bias for action does not mean the entrepreneur just lets people do whatever. They use judgment and behave in a manner that will still accomplish the entrepreneurs' overall intent in their mission.

I've heard it said, “You stay on the leading edge, not the bleeding edge.” We're in peacetime now. I'm an entrepreneur. Nobody should be falling on their sword. We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. We're going to open this up more. Any other leadership topics we have not hit on that you want to share? That's the first thing and number two, I want to talk about these four books that you wrote. I want you to unpack them. Is there anything else from a leadership perspective that you would like to share?

I would always go back to the very first chapters of my book. It’s the very first thing that I learned as a Marine leader and a listed officer. That is the absolute non-negotiable requirement for the character. I have a famous quote on the wall of my gym here. It's by Heraclitus, an ancient Greek philosopher. It says, “A man's character is his fate.” If you think about it, some people skate through life and they get caught cheating way at the end. Some people never do, but not most.

Most people do succumb to what their character is. Good or bad, it’s how it ends up. I tell people, “As a leader, you do not want an organization that has a zero defects mentality with one exception, character. Within character, the subset of integrity.” I was taught as a Marine leader, “We know you're going to make mistakes. You're young. However, we will tolerate no lapses of integrity. If you get caught lying, cheating, or stealing, you will be out of this outfit probably within 30 days.”

I saw it happen. Some people say, “You can't do that in the business world.” I disagree. In my company, it was a highly ethical company and that'll be a bold statement to some of the military folks out there. Kforce was led by a CEO and a team of executives that had an identical emphasis on character, integrity, honesty, accuracy, and reporting in the Marine Corps. I saw this a few times during my tenure at Kforce senior executive or the leading salesperson. This guy himself is making seven figures.

He's bringing in tons of revenue but they did something that violated our core values. The company adopted some Marine terms. We'd be in an executive team meeting and someone would say, “I have an announcement. Charlie Smith is no longer with the firm. He was proven to be guilty of a lapse of special trust and confidence and breach of integrity.”

We may never find out what exactly happened if they got caught stealing or whatever the case may be. As I always say, as goes the leader, so goes the unit always. As you know, in a publicly traded company, the auditors come in every quarter. It's the dentist thing. It used to piss me off. When I first got out there, Tracey, it is like, “The auditors are coming in. We have to bring them in. It's this SEC regulation. They have to come in to make sure that we're not lying about what the business is doing.”

It's like, “Yes, that's exactly right, Mike.” Unfortunately, in the past, people did lie. To protect the shareholders, you have to spend all this money bringing in Ernst & Young. I'm like, “I get it. I understand.” They always come in about twice a year to do a high-level audit. One of the things that they ask is about tone from the top. They ask me, “Mike, you're a senior executive. To the best of your knowledge, would the senior executives or any leader in this company tolerate cheating, stealing, obfuscation of the truth, or whatever?” I'd say, “No. I don't even suspect that going on.”

They didn't stop there. They went all the way down the chain of command, the mail room, and the shipping dock. They would cherry-pick people like Wells Fargo, “Just sign these people up.” Volkswagen, “Make the emission stats work and all that.” In those companies that are found guilty of those things, it came from the top. They either encouraged or tolerated fudging. That’s the Enron. It’s collusion.

The honor code in the military academies was, “We will not lie, cheat or steal nor tolerate those who do.” I don't know if it's still there or not but the character is shared like leadership is. One of my favorite books is by John Maxwell and it's called, There's No Such Thing as "Business" Ethics. His point is ethics is ethics, be it spiritual or financial. Character is character. It's your core conviction. You can't separate it.

If your character has a malformation, it's coming out. As you said, it has no place in the organization because if the leaders at the top tolerate it, look at all this stuff going on. I can't look at what anybody else is doing. All we know is that we hold ourselves to a high level of integrity but I love the zero defect in character.

It has to be that way, especially with the entrepreneurs reading right now. I tell people, whether they realize it or not in any organization, the minute there's another person, it's a leadership environment. Whether they are consciously doing it or not, a culture is being formed. The leader has to lead by example in everything that she says, does, encourages, and tolerates. Those things produce standards. It’s like, “We can get away with this here. She tolerates that.”

Those standards become the culture. One way or the other, a company or an organization has a culture. It just may not be what the leader would hope it to be. Cultures do grow automatically, unlike a lot of people. “It won't grow around trees,” I say cultures do grow on trees. In bad cultures, the vacuum will be failed. If you don't create, groom, and cultivate a good culture, a less-than-good culture is sure to surface. It’s human nature.

In bad cultures, the vacuum will fail. A less-than-good culture will surface if you don't create, groom, and cultivate a good culture. It's human nature.

The organization is neither good nor bad. It's amoral. It's the individuals in the entity. As you said, that's all characters. That's what becomes the culture because if it's not something living or breathing, which is us, a program doesn't have a culture. Money doesn't have a culture but as individuals. I love that you unpacked that and tied culture to the character because everybody likes to say, “My culture is this and that. How's your character?”

That gets personal. That's where we get into morals, ethics, and decision-making. I can remember one time I went in, “Have you ever broken the law?” I'm a rule abider. I'm like, “Of course not.” They're like, “You never went over the speed limit or ran a stop sign?” I'm like, “Those laws.” They're like, “Yeah.” I'm like, “Okay. Yeah.” It's the little white things and I’ll go back into that character bucket. Mike, tell me and our readers about your books.

My main book is called Trust-Based Leadership: Marine Corps Leadership Concepts for Today's Business Leaders. It's a big book. It’s 574 pages. I wrote that as a textbook for my leadership and executive coaching. I do a lot of leadership training for executive teams and leaders at all levels. My earlier statement is I joined the business world in '99. I joined a publicly traded company. I didn't know what a publicly traded company was.

Trust-Based Leadership: Marine Corps Leadership Concepts for Today's Business Leaders

At one point they said, “Mike, we're going to put AP. You're going to take over AP.” I'm like, “What's AP?” I didn't know what accounts payable was. Two years in, I became the CIO. It was a 174-person technology group with a $45 million budget. It’s a failing group. I had no formal skills in tech, but I knew it was going to work because they didn't need tech skills. They needed leadership and organization. The whole premise of the book is leadership is leadership. I was new to the business world but I was not new to leadership.

I looked to my left and right very quickly and realized I've had much more formal leadership training than anybody here. There are some good executives and leaders here that are very good leaders. There are also some, through no fault of their own, that don't know the fundamentals. That's a different issue. That's a training issue but I realized I could apologize for my lack. For 4 or 5 years, I was in charge of human resources, marketing, and internet operations. I ordered cash. We are a big group. We processed $20 million a day and payables and all of that.

Most of the non-sales organization's units in a $1.3 billion company, I had training and experience in none of them. We did well because they didn't need me to be a marketer. We had people down there that had the expertise. What I was able to do was lead, synergize, make them cohesive, make sure the vision was stated, and they all were aware of it. I just lead. It’s the executive mindset versus the person turning the wrench.

My job was to make sure everybody had the right wrenches. We are turning the wrenches on the right things in every department and we were going to end up with the car we ordered at the end of the process. By the way, what kind of wrenches are we going to be using three years from now? The mechanics are too busy turning wrenches. They don't have time to do that. I'm very big on that and entrepreneurs have to be very careful about this because they don't have the bandwidth. They don't have the infrastructure.

That's the big book. If people want it, it's on Amazon. It’s Trust-Based Leadership. They can Google me. I'm all over the leadership presence. It's not meant to be read from cover to cover. You can go through and skip around and all that but it has served me admirably in my training and coaching. I also wrote one called Principles of War for Corporate America. Here's why this military operation worked or failed, and here's why GE blew it, Netflix, Blockbuster, and things like that. I make the connection.

I tell them, “If you follow these principles, you have a real good chance of being successful.” Because you're human and if you're successful, before you know it, you might fall victim to the next book, Victory Disease: How Great Nations, Armies and Companies Fail. When was the last time you saw a Sears store? You haven't. They're gone. Also, Kmart. There are so many good ones that are gone. GE is off of the Dow. You get my point. If you read the book, you got a chance to spiff up your leadership.

If you lead well and follow the principles of business, you have a chance of your operations going well but then you might get arrogant, complacent, and catch the Victory Disease. Read them all and triangulate. The fourth book, I alluded to it. I'm a huge fan of the Stoics, the ancient philosophers. They did have it figured out thousands of years ago.

I sent an eBlast out for my father. Somebody is like, “You and your father were both stoics.” I'm like, “I love that.” For the readers, what the stoic is?

There was a group of philosophers, mostly Greeks, some Romans, Marcus Aurelius, Socrates, and all that. They go back from 2,500 years ago, a couple older than that to 200 or 300 AD. These are the old wise men and they figured it out. I became a fan. I was a young Marine and I saw an article on Admiral Stockdale. Admiral Stockdale had been a POW in the infamous Hanoi Hilton for seven years. He was in solitary confinement for almost seven years. They physically broke him, but they never mentally broke him.

Prior to going to Vietnam, he was a very learned guy and he became a fan of the Stoics. He said, “It was on my nightstand. I used to read it. I embraced it.” He gets shot down on the way down in his parachute. He's wounded. He's in the injection sheet going down. I'm paraphrasing, Tracey. He says something like, “Into the world of Marcus Aurelius, for at least five years. He knew I am going to get tortured.” This is not going to be fun because he’s ejected from North Vietnam. “This is going to be hell and I'm going to get through this through the teachings and the wisdom of these guys.”

He survived and I read about this. He got interviewed by a famous leadership author. He said, “Tell me Admiral, who survived the Hanoi Hilton.” He goes, “That's a little bit complicated. I can tell you who didn't survive. It’s the optimists.” The guy was like, “I expected you to say the optimist would survive.” He said, “Let me tell you why they didn't survive. We were getting brutally tortured. They broke my arms. He still couldn't walk right when he was released. They tortured the heck out of these guys. They hung them up by their arms backwards. It was brutal and inhuman. The guys that said, ‘We're going to be home by Christmas,’” and then Christmas came and went.

They are like, “Easter.” He said, “After a couple of years of that, some of them were so brokenhearted that they died.” Here's what became known as the Stockdale principle. He said, “I took a different view and I taught others this view. I would tell myself, ‘You're going to get out of this. You're going to see your wife and children again. You're going to be free again one day, but not today. Today and tomorrow, you're probably going to get tortured, starved, beaten, or whatever.’ It's there, but I'm under no illusion that it's going to happen soon.”

He said, “I had faith it was going to happen, but I also knew I got work to do. I have to live. My mission is to live to reach that. That became the Stockdale principle. I read that as a young guy and fell in love with it. I read his books and all that. The book that I wrote is called Ancient Wisdom. I have a large following on LinkedIn. For 100 days in a row, I posted a stoic quote and for what it's worth, Mike Ettore’s insights on it.

Ancient Wisdom

After 100 days, I took them. I packaged them in a book. I say in the preface of it, “I wrote this book for my children and my great-grandchildren's great-grandchildren.” My point is, I told my kids, “If you read this book and what I say about these things, you get an inside look at how my old man's mind works. Maybe some of the things I did said caused you to do hard on yourself as children. It makes sense one day.” I'll leave it at this with the stoics.

My advice to leaders at every level with the stoics and everything is, I maintain that as an old guy now, every mistake that I've made personally, professionally, and every mistake that anybody could make as a person and as a leader has already been made countless times by millions of people, sometimes for thousands of years. All we have to do is read and talk to others and mind their experiences.

We can avoid repeating easily avoidable mistakes because when I read the Stoics, I'm like, “I wished I knew that twenty years ago in relationships, business, life, or whatever.” They've got it figured out. There's a saying, a quote, or some guidance for everything, which tells me what they went through as human beings is no different than what I'm going through. The world is much different but when you deal with people, life's problems, and getting disillusioned, they've got all the answers right there. That's pretty much it.

Now, a lot of people are like, “It's your adversity quotient.” The importance now of resiliency. One of my top ten books is Viktor Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning, which is very similar to, “We're in the hell of a concentration camp. You will find a way to live, otherwise, you won't make it.” Why did he make it? A lot didn't when they were under that stuff.

It’s all about perspective. I would encourage people to do hard things personally and professionally. Get used to dealing with adversity and/or challenges because eventually, you're going to have them for real. As I said about the combat Marine, the first time he gets tired, sore, scared, or whatever should not be for real. He should have felt that in training and all of that. I'm a big advocate of people pushing themselves and physically working out. I'd be curious if you're experience is the same way, Tracey. I deal with high-level executives and I don't think I've ever met one that was grossly overweight or was an alcoholic.

You got to be in fighting form in all aspects.

My executive team is all state college grads. Nobody is from a pedigree school. They are very accomplished people. They are different age groups but every single one of them exercised. Most of them, in the morning before the day started. They were disciplined at what they ate and in life. There are common denominators here that I tell people. I think your dad said it and other people said it. People that are not disciplined in their personal lives are rarely disciplined and successful in their professional lives. They go hand-in-hand.

This brings me to another one of my favorite quotes from our contrails in the Air Force. It may have been Patton again. “If you can't get them to salute when you tell them to salute or wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?” If you can't control physically something like your appetite, how are you going to be able when the pressure is on to make those big decisions? The devil is in the details.

Yes and that goes back to what I'm saying. A leader leads by example in everything she says, does, encourages, or tolerates. For example, we hit hard times during the dot-com crash in Kforce. We used to have our executive meetings on Friday and it was an all-day meeting so they would bring in lunch. It wasn't a catered lunch that GE executives probably had, but it was a catered lunch. There would be chicken, tacos, or whatever. We cut back big time in the whole company. We were telling people, “Use the back of your paper like scratch paper.” As executives, we had to lead the way. We stopped those lunches.

A leader leads by example in everything she says, does, encourages, or tolerates.

When we started again, they were just sandwiches. People asked. They would come up and ask, “Are the executives eating lunch? “They eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. That's what they're eating now.” I have a thing in my book where I wanted to lead by example. We were so tight on money that I used to use these pens. The pen, if we bought them in bulk might've cost $0.87 a piece, but I made a big deal out of it for about three years.

I didn't buy new pens. I'd made Jessica buy me refills for the pens. I saved $0.25 and I told everybody that would listen. I've had this pen for three years. I've refilled it eight times. I'm leading by example. When people see the leaders, when you say, “Tighten your belts,” they damn sure better see the leader tighten your belt as well or you've set up hypocrisy and all is lost.

Mike, what's the best way for people to reach out and stay connected with you?

My website has all my contact info. I have a large following on LinkedIn. For those that don't know this, LinkedIn has turned into a world-class social media platform. There are world-class people like you in their daily sharing of insights. I have pissed that when I was young, LinkedIn and YouTube didn't exist because, between LinkedIn and YouTube, the knowledge of the world is at your fingertips.

Come find me on LinkedIn. Connect with me or follow me. You'll get every post that I make. I usually make it every day. I have the Fidelis Leadership Podcast once a week where I introduce and interviewed you, and other notables. If they Google Mike Ettore, I'm a leadership guy. I've been out there for years. They have every right to say, “I don't know if this guy is any good, but he’s been around a long time.”

You have your books and courses. Let’s say I'm not a C-Suite person, but who's your ideal client out there? We have a lot of people. Do you coach individually? Can they do online stuff? What if they're not with a bigger organization? Can they reach out to you for your services?

They can. I have a couple of executive coaching engagements right now where it's one executive from a company and another executive from another company. Those are usually six weeks at a time. Most of them sign up for another six weeks. I am doing leadership training with two leadership teams with 6 people in one company and 12 people from another. That is a ten-week leadership course using trust-based leadership.

Both of those groups are the second group from their respective companies. I did their executives first. They said, “We want you to do the next level.” One company said, “You're going to do another third level for us.” That answers the question. I train executives. I train leaders at every level and I like to get the young ones. It’s because I tell people, “If I can get to you in your 20s and 30s, you won't need an executive coach in a remedial sense when you're in your 50s and 60s. You'll need one that can help you get better, but you won't need one to save your job.” That's me being a bit of a smart ass, but reach out to me.

Right now, I don't do the online stuff yet. I'm going there. What I'm going to start doing is start opening up a quarterly class where if you want to get this trust-based leadership ten-week course, here's when it is. I'll put it on LinkedIn. I'll probably cap it at 10 or 12 people. Have the website and all that. You come, you find out, and you sign up for it. It’s like, “Here's a Zoom invitation. Let's go,” and we'll go.

I'm saying for online courses, I do online courses because everybody says, “Do online courses,” but people still want the interactive portion. You can still have the recurring stuff or study ahead, but they want that connection, especially with somebody like you. I'm not saying, “Go do it,” but I look forward to those quarterly classes. I think that would be brilliant. I need to talk to you about a couple of upcoming military gigs I got coming with you on panels and stuff like that too. Mike, is there anything else? Any parting words of wisdom?

No, I can't think of any. We talked about it a lot and love it. We've been going for a long time. You said a half hour but we've been going a lot more than a half hour but I think you love it.

I got so much written. I've got events coming up. I'm speaking and I'm like, “I'm lifting that.” I know our leaders out there will be so thankful for this. You are just a wealth of knowledge, Mike. Thank you so much.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity. Usually, in that ten-week course, and I've done many of them now, in the fourth session towards the end, I get all excited. I'll stop and I’ll say, “Let me ask you something.” They're all looking at me on Zoom, “Can you folks tell how much I love doing this?” “Yes.” I'm like, “I feel bad about charging you. I love this so much.”

I would do it for free. It's not free but thank you. I love doing this. This is my whole reason for being on Earth at this point in my life. Thank you for giving me another opportunity. My great-grandchildren's grandchildren are going to see this episode. Whatever the internet looks like 100 years from now, they're going to see us.

I'm so thankful because I know you are going to be a tremendous resource to our readers out there. Let me wrap it up real quick, Mike. To our readers out there, thank you for being a part of our Tremendous Tribe. If you like what you learned, please be sure and hit the subscribe button. We'd love it if you'd share.

Connect with Mike, get his books, and also the honor of a five-star review would be tremendous. I want to thank you all out there for paying the price of leadership. I think you got some insights and information here that we're in there in the battle with you. Keep up the tremendous fight and thank you all for being a part of our lives. Have a tremendous rest of the day.

Important Links

• Mike Ettore - LinkedIn

• Fidelis Leadership Group

• Upwork

• Trust-Based Leadership: Marine Corps Leadership Concepts for Today's Business Leaders

• Principles of War

• Victory Disease: How Great Nations, Armies and Companies Fail

• Ancient Wisdom

• Man's Search For Meaning

• Fidelis Leadership Podcast

• https://Amzn.to/3qmEoSq

About Mike Ettore

Mike has served in leadership roles for over 45 years. He’s earned a reputation for being an exceptionally effective leader and is known for achieving superior results in a wide range of challenging environments. In addition to having retired as a Marine Corps Infantry officer and decorated combat leader, he also served successfully as a C-level executive in Kforce, Inc. (NASDAQ: KFRC), a publicly traded professional services firm with annual revenue in excess of $1 Billion.

While serving as Chief Services Officer, Mike was responsible for the majority of Kforce’s corporate support departments and functions, including Human Resources, Information Technology, the Program Management Office, Marketing and Social Media, Procurement, Corporate Real Estate, and the domestic and Manila-based Financial Shared Services teams. He also served as the executive sponsor for strategic planning and most of the logistical activities associated with the integration of acquired companies and the divestiture of organic business units.

Over the course of his Marine Corps and business careers, Mike was highly regarded for being an exceptionally effective mentor and developer of leaders. After retiring from Kforce in 2013, Mike founded Fidelis Leadership Group and has devoted himself to his greatest passion, helping others develop into World Class Leaders. He has successfully coached and mentored executives and senior leaders from a wide range of industries and is sought after for his expertise in all aspects of leadership development and the creation of leadership training programs.

In addition to being a lifelong student of leadership, Mike has earned Master’s degrees in Business Administration and Management. He is also the author of four books devoted to the topics of leadership and leadership development.

Episode 162 - Dr. Rev Bella Brown - Leaders On Leadership

Effective leadership isn't just about taking charge. At its most profound level, it is all about transforming yourself into a Christ-filled leader to inspire and empower others to reach their full potential. In this episode, Dr. Tracey Jones chats with Dr. Reverend Bella Brown, the Pastor at St. Mark’s United Church of Christ in Hamstead, Maryland. Dr. Brown explains how her faith shaped her leadership, touching other people’s lives in the most meaningful ways. She shares her testimony of how God bestows His peace in times of trouble, highlighting the significance of leaders in fulfilling His vision. Dr. Brown also talks about her experiences learning from two great leaders of faith, "Mom Glow" and "Charlie Tremendous," shaping her into a better person and an effective leader.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Dr. Rev Bella Brown - Leaders On Leadership

In this episode, I am so excited to introduce to you my dear sister, friend, cohort, and colleague, the Rev. Dr. Bella Brown. I want to tell you a little bit about Bella and where we connected. Dr. Reverend Bella Brown is the pastor at St. Mark’s United Church of Christ in Hamstead, Maryland. She's also the Vice President and the Board of Directors of Back Bay Mission in Biloxi, Mississippi, and the Member of the Board of Directors for Emmaus Homes in St. Charles, Missouri. Bella, welcome.

Thank you. I’m glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

You're welcome. Bella and I just reconnected after many years. We've been casually connected, but we go way back to the '90s. Some of you may not have been born, but back in St. Charles with the 131st Fighter Wing, the Air National Guard back there, and then also, the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency West in downtown St. Louis. We also worked together there.

I was with my dear sister and we were neighbors in Benton Park. I lived on Lemp Avenue and she lived one over. We have connected throughout our lives at many different times. She reached out to me to update us on a friend because I was going out to St. Louis and she informed me. Now, she's in Maryland, close to me in Pennsylvania. I look forward to being closer to my sister during this next season of life. Bella, thank you so much for being a guest on our show.

Thank you.

Let's get started. You knew Charlie “Tremendous.” You got to spend some of the last times on his earth with him. He passed in 2008, so we got to spend Thanksgiving the year prior to that. Tell us a little bit about your interaction with Mom Glow, as you called her, and Charlie “Tremendous.”

First of all, Tracy, thank you for having me but I think that you and your siblings are some of the most blessed people there are to have such parents as Charlie and Mom Glow. I call him Pop Charlie because he was that personable. I remember the first time that I met him how he makes you feel like he's known you all your life and he has such a great impact, especially where leadership was concerned for me.

He told me to never stop learning. I have one of these bracelets that reminds me of some of the things that he talked about. I remember he said that five years from now, you will be the same person except for the people you meet and the books you read. I remember just spending that quality time with him. Most of all, he and Mom Glow were people of faith. That was another layer of the endearment that both of them mean to me, especially Pop Charlie because he was such a great leader. He knew how to engage people in a way that made them feel very special all the time. He was very special.

I know they loved you and as I said, in that season where things were winding down, where they were immigrating to heaven, I'm so blessed that you were there and we got to share that time together. With that being said, one of the speeches that Pop “Tremendous” did was called The Price of Leadership. He did it decades ago and it's still one of our most popular speeches.

In it, he talked about the price of leadership and the things you're going to have to do to be a leader and not just a leader in name only. The first one is loneliness. We've all heard, “It’s lonely at the top.” Can you unpack what loneliness means for you as a leader? Maybe a season you went through and some words of wisdom and encouragement for our audience out there if they are in that season.

Leadership is a very rewarding position and I truly believe that God gives us certain gifts and talents. Not everyone could be a leader. They can hold leadership positions, but the character of a leader would entail such things as loneliness and building confidence in the decisions that you make for those that are around you. In one of the positions I have right now with everything that's going on within the nation and everything, I have to stay very prayerful.

Christ-Filled Leader: Not everyone could be a leader. A person can hold leadership positions, but that would entail loneliness and building confidence in making decisions for other people.

I'm very fortunate to be a woman of color in what we would call a predominantly Caucasian White church. I went in with the expectation that I was going to have to build up so much fortitude to know that I may have to sit and be lonely in a sense of not having people participate and be very forthcoming and very accepting of me. It was totally different. What I went in expecting to be a lonely situation for me ended up being such a very endearing situation.

As a leader, you have to prepare for those moments and realize that you have to have that God-given confidence. I call it Christ esteem versus self-esteem. That God-given confidence to know that you're there to love, care, develop, and help those that are around you. Loneliness is a very critical time that a leader has to prepare themselves for.

It reminds me of Charles' statement, “Expect the worst, but hope for the best.” It sounds like you're very pragmatic about going in that. I love that Christ esteem and I love it as a leader. You're a seasoned leader. You made this move to this position not that long ago and thank you for your transparency that even we, as seasoned Christ-filled leaders, every now and then, we get that assume the worst. What a blessing that you shared with us that loneliness is parred for the course. I'm so thankful that you shared that. The next aspect is weariness. We're filled with the spirit, but we're still flesh and blood in this plane of existence. Can you share with us how you combat weariness?

One of the things I look at in the ministry of Jesus Christ, I look to those times when he went off to himself. The disciples many times could not even find him. Leaders have to carve in that time. You know when you're being effective and you know when you're not being effective. In those stages, you know that it's time for you to go off to yourself, whether it's prayer or meditation. Take a couple of days off and do those fun things that you enjoy doing because it's very important that you carve out that time so that you can get revived and rejuvenated in your spirit as well as your body.

We are flesh and blood and we get wary on this journey. If you don't take care of yourself spiritually, physically, and mentally, you are not going to be an effective leader nor will you be as influential in helping others around you. That's one of the key traits that a leader has to do. Make sure that they are always developing, nurturing, and encouraging those that are around them.

How do you do that? I love you talking about carving out time and that you know when you're starting to slip or things are starting to drop, and even no amount of work. For somebody like you, that's in ministry, you probably are on call with people. You got Wednesday night services and definitely Sunday services and who knows what else. When do you place your time, typically for a lot of us, it's Sundays. Sundays are Sabbath days. When do you carve out time for yourself, Bella?

I was very fortunate in the sense to where I usually take my Sabbath on Fridays so therefore I take that day. That's my day to do something fun. Being able to reconnect with you now is inspirational and very encouraging to me. It gives me energy. I know that to feel the love and the support that you have given me during the years. I look forward to drawing from that love and that friendship.

One of the things I also do is when I'm traveling for board meetings, whether it's going down to New Orleans or Mississippi, I usually take maybe a day before and a day after to do something fun. I don't air it back. I try to make it like a mini-vacation. In the first week of May, I'm headed for New Orleans. Our board meeting is in Biloxi, Mississippi but I'll fly into New Orleans.

We’ll spend the day there, my husband and I, Rev. Rodney Winters. We'll have a fun day in New Orleans. We'll drive to Biloxi, which is about an hour and a half and we'll sit probably along the beach. Now, they have a big shrimp boil celebration that we're going to have. I'm looking forward to the fun things. Fortunately, we'll be there with the UCC CEO and President Rev. John Dorhauer. It gives me the time to draw from even his experience in leadership, which would help encourage my leadership as well.

Charles would always say you blend the work and the fun together. You said Sabbath is replenishment and I love that. For our audience out there, Sabbath doesn't mean you shut off and sit there and go monk, although if that's what you need to replenish you, but whatever feeds your soul because leaders pour out all the time. We must allow at least one day to be poured into whether that's here. This isn't work. This is a homecoming for us. It's whatever it is. Be it getting to a meeting early. I like that you said that. Allow space to replenish. Bring your spouse.

Loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. For those of us that love animals, we think about abandoning an animal or fear of abandonment. Charles would always say that he does more in a day to contribute to his failure than his success. Abandonment in the “Tremendous” world was abandoning what you like and want to think about in favor of what you ought and need to think about. It's this hyper-focus. Bella, you're on board. You're making transitions. You probably have a lot of people look at you and say, “I need your resources or your advocacy for this.” How do you stay tightly focused on your highest and best use of time?

One of the things, and being a woman of faith, I do pray. I like Charles' definition of abandonment because there are sacrifices that we do as a result of this. However, I believe just like he was, he was connected to a higher power. He was connected to his God and that was the source of power. I'm sure if he was here now, he'll tell you that he knows that he’d be there with him himself. That does help me. My faith is the foundation of everything that I do.

I know there are going to be sacrifices, but on the other end, I look around and I see the blessings that God has given me as a result of being in a position of leadership, and as a result of being able to influence people. I don't take that lightly. I consider it an honor and a privilege because I realize that not everybody gets a chance to be in positions where they can influence others and try to help and encourage them. I know that it's my job and at the same time, to be able to use constructive criticism that would help others.

Not everybody gets a chance to be in a position where they can influence others and try to help or encourage them.

 It's not always a bed of roses. I tell people when I preach a sermon, “God never promised us a rose garden.” I used Tammy Wynette’s, “I beg your pardon. God never really promised us a rose garden.” There are going to be highs, lows, ins and outs. In the midst of it all, having that faith gives you that love, peace, and joy that comes from only your connection with God. It is such a joy to be able to connect with others and with others in that same realm of love, peace, and joy, and to know and respect all those that God had created. That has given you an opportunity to influence.

I love that you talked about abandonment and that God gives us our direction. If we're not supposed to spend time with this or give a word to somebody about this, rather than sit there and go, "I can't do all things for all people," you hit the nail on the head. God gives us peace. He'll take care of that. He knows everything so he already knows who's coming into that person's life in his providential timing and not our timing.

There are things we're abandoning and people say, “Shouldn't we be doing this or don't you feel like doing this or somebody's doing this? I don't even see that because God gives us that peace when you take the march and orders for him. It’s because he has already seen this to the end and knows your highest and best purpose. I love that you hit on that for leaders. Even though we're not getting everything that maybe the world thinks we should do, that doesn't even factor into the equation.

The last thing Charles talked about is loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. His definition of vision was seeing what needs to be done, but also doing it. There was this very practical, pragmatic, action-oriented step to it. Can you define what vision looks like for you and how you cast it? How do you look out to the future, and how do you lay out your next goals and steps?

This one is pretty much easier for me because being a pastor, God has already given a vision for the church and whatever I can do to build up love, spirit, and peace, and to direct individuals to Jesus Christ. I am walking in the vision which God has for his church. One of my profound prayers is for God to tear down the walls and the visions that separate your children so that we may come together in love. It’s because the scripture says, “By this, all people should know that we're his disciples by the love we have one for another.”

I always ask God to allow the church as a whole, not only St. Mark’s United Church of Christ but as a whole, the universal church to grow numerically and spiritually because that was one of the commandments. The last commandment that Jesus gave to the disciple was to go into all the worlds and make them disciples. Therefore, that vision is always ongoing.

When you talk about the details of the vision itself, that's where much of prayer is. That's where you ask God to encamp people around you that will confirm that vision for you. I don't do leadership decisions in a vacuum, but I look towards the people that God has gifted to be around me to help, support and be able to walk in that vision, staying focused on what God has called us to do. That's to make disciples and do whatever is necessary to make sure that we stay focused on that vision.

Never do leadership decisions in a vacuum. Look towards the people that God has gifted to be around you to help so. This way, you can support them in the way you are called to do.

I love that you tied vision to the organizational mission because a lot of times it's like, “What do I want to do?” It's like, “If you're already in an entity, there should be a value congruence.” I hope you didn't say yes to this job if you're not all in. I love that you talked about what our ultimate one is. The greatest commandment in the world is to love one another. I love that you talked about going back to that and also, that you will surround yourself with vision.

Leadership is a shared enterprise, and decision-making is not to be done in a vacuum. Even if you get the call, you share it with those closest, your inner circle, your Peter, James, and John for confirmation prayer because none of us are meant to do this alone, especially vision. If you're the only one hearing the calling, you might want to let that sit for a while and get some wise counsel.

I remember I was at an installation and they talked about how Aaron and Hur held up Moses' hands when the children of Israel were in battle. You need those Aarons and Hurs to support you as you focus on what God has called you to do. Even in sometimes getting tired, God will send you those people to help uplift your hands and keep that support that you need to make sure that the things of God and the battles go well.

Bella, thank you for unpacking these four topics with us and we've covered quite a few things. I know our audience got a lot out of it. I know I did too. Is there anything else as far as all things leadership that you would like to share with our audience?

Yes, and I go back to what Pop Charlie told me, “Tremendous” Jones. He said to never stop learning. I have this bracelet that says, “Never stop learning.” I think as leaders, we cannot ever stop learning. Look around and see the gifts that God has put in the people that surround you, and ask God for the wisdom to not only learn from them but hopefully, that whatever gifts God has given you, you were enhancing and inspiring them more to seek purpose in leadership.

One of the things I truly believe is that leadership is shown through example, not only what Jesus did, but what Pop Charlie did. He didn't just talk the talk, but he walk the walk. We have to be genuine and we have to be sincere in this position of leadership because it is a position that influences and can change people's lives by the way that we treat them and the way that they feel that we care about them. Therefore, it's definitely not to be taken lightly.

Christ-Filled Leader: Leaders have to be genuine and sincere. They are influencing and changing people's lives. Therefore, it's definitely not to be taken lightly.

Thank you so much. Bella, you talked about the church, St. Mark’s United Church of Christ. What's the best way for people to connect with you?

They can connect with me. I have an email. It’s Bella9253@gmail.com. I would love to entertain any questions or comments that anyone may have. Also for prayer, I'll even pray for you.

God bless you, sister. I can't wait. You have a big event coming up in April, correct?

On April 23rd, I will be installed as a settled pastor for St. Mark's United Church of Christ on 1616 Cape Horn Road in Hampstead, Maryland. That ZIP is 21074. It's going to be going on April 23rd. I'm looking forward to that.

I can't wait to see you in person and give you a big hug and be there on this life milestone. Bella, thank you again for this. To our audience out there, if you liked what you learned, please reach out to Bella. Please hit the like button. Hit the subscribe button, and if you do us the honor of reviewing, we would be so thankful. Please share this with the other leaders out there that are paying the price of leadership. I know you are, and I am so thankful for you and for being a part of our Tremendous tribe. Thank you, Bella. I love you.

Thank you. God bless you.

Important Links

• St. Mark’s United Church of Christ

• Back Bay Mission

• Emmaus Homes

• The Price of Leadership

• Bella9253@gmail.com

About Dr. Rev Bella Brown

Dr. Rev Bella Brown is the Pastor at St. Mark’s United Church of Christ in Hampstead, Maryland. She also serves as the Vice President Board of Directors of Back Bay Mission in Biloxi, Mississippi, and as a member of the Board of Directors for Emmaus House in St. Charles, Missouri.

Episode 161 - Dr. Diely Pichardo-Johansson - Leaders On Leadership

"I see this abandonment as something more pleasurable. It is connecting with your true voice and figuring the things that are important to me." - Dr. Diely Pichardo-Johansson.

Dr. Diely Pichardo-Johansson, an Amazon bestselling author, shares her thoughts about leaders on leadership and the price you have to pay for it. She shares how she lost many friends after she became a life coach because people think that change is contagious, and they're afraid that in a way that if you make a change in your lives that makes you happier and better, you are challenging them. Dr. Diely adds that when we are finally ready to start listening to our voice and not to the world, we already finish our milestones. Tune in to this episode and listen more about the price you must pay for leadership.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Dr. Diely Pichardo-Johansson - Leaders On Leadership

In this episode, I am extremely excited to connect you with our guest. Her name is Dr. Diely Pichardo-Johansson. She is a former Hematologist-Oncologist. She's a life coach. She's also an Amazon bestselling author, but she prefers to describe herself as an oncologist who, after becoming a cancer survivor, decided that, “Life is too short. I don't want and make a living fighting death anymore. I'd rather make a living celebrating life.” She now specializes in helping professional women make romantic career transitions so that they can live the life they want. Diely, thank you so much for being our guest on the show.

Thank you for having me. You’ve said my name very well.

Thank you so much. A shout-out to our readers. For those of you that have read Dr. Madeline Frank before, she's the one that introduced me to Diely. I like to tee it up and let people know how our paths crossed. It's all about the people you meet and the books you read. Thank you again, Diely. I'm going to get started because I want to hear your perspective on The Price of Leadership.

Our readers know that my father talked about the four key tenets that you are going to have to be paying to truly call yourself a leader. The first to them is loneliness. We've all heard the saying, “It's lonely at the top. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.” Could you unpack what loneliness as a leader looks like for you and share with us a time when you went through it in your life?

As a life coach, I love a saying that says that people would rather be unhappy than lose their identity. For me to become a leader as a life coach, and one of the populations I help also are physicians, I had to leave medicine behind. I had to decide I had enough. I want a better quality of life. I don't want to make a living fighting death. That made me lose many friends in a similar way as when I decided to be a happier person many years ago in divorce, someone who was making me very unhappy, I lost many friends.

People think that change is contagious, and they're afraid in a way that if you make a change in your lives that makes you happier and better, you are challenging them. They may want to pull you back. They may want to disappear and not be near you because you remind them of the unhappy life they have now. That has been my face with loneliness. When I left medicine and became a life coach, I started meeting wonderful people. I started making great connections and lost a huge amount of my former friends and colleagues.

I love that you said people fear that change is contagious because, in the world that we're in, even in your medical career before, if they're there seeing you, there's an issue. Typically, it means something has to change, either a medical issue or a lifestyle issue. It is interesting when people will look at you and say, “You've changed.” You're so right. That means that they don't want to, and they're afraid it will somehow leap on them.

I never realized that could be the spur of the sense of loneliness. It’s also good to hear that there's always somebody on the other side there to fill that gap with what you're looking for. Thank you for that, Diely. Now, weariness. How do you combat weariness? It must have been very exhausting in the medical profession, but how do you deal with weariness in your role?

We should normalize weariness in a way. We will have good days and bad days. We'll have phases when everything goes our way and see the fruit of our work. We will have phases where we are going to feel despair. The difference between the weariness that practically cost me career burnout and had me leave oncology and the weariness that you feel in a leadership role that you are committed to is, “Am I in the place where I want to be? Maybe things are not going my way right now. Maybe I'm second-guessing myself, but right at this moment, am I exactly where I want to be?” That is the way I've been combating weariness. If you can answer that question one day at a time, “Yes, I believe in this message. Yes, I still believe that what I am working for is worthy and is in alignment with my values,” then that's how you overcome the recurrent weariness of the leadership role.

I appreciate you saying we should normalize weariness because if you are in your purpose and you're pouring out into people, there is going to be an element of that. I love that you said that. If you're in the place, it's a good weary versus an exhausted, frustrated type of weary where you realize there's a difference when you're run down because you know you're in the wrong place and there's not a value congruence. As you said, there's a good weariness where you at least know you're in place, but there's a lot of work to do.

For people who work out, I compare it to when you are tired after a good workout at the gym. You feel tired and sore, but you feel good. It’s different from having spent your whole day working in a coal mine doing work that is exhausting and hurting your back lifting heavy things. That is a pain in a bad way.

He talked about loneliness and weariness. He talked about abandonment. When he talked about abandonment in The Price of Leadership, he referred to it as, “Stop doing the things that you shouldn't do.” It’s almost hyper-focus. You need to abandon all the things that aren't truly getting you to the place that you say you want to be in.

This is a tough one for us, especially as women because we like to be all things to all people. Can you share with us how you hone your sense of abandonment, especially since you abandoned past careers and past relationships and moved on to the next? Can you walk us through that or give us some advice on that?

Remember when you and I had the first talk, that's where I say, “I have a little objection to that,” but I see what you mean. In my case, change came from abandoning things that the world was telling me I was supposed to want but were not in connection with what I felt my mission in life was and what I wanted to do. I see this abandonment as something more pleasurable perhaps and is connecting with your true voice and figuring out, “What are the things that are important to me?”

You can prioritize and learn to say no. That is going to include recharging your batteries. That was the other tweak I have to that. It’s doing things that bring you happiness and expressing your creativity. Having a hobby that recharges you that is not connected with your cause of leadership is also very important because you cannot give what you don't have. In my case, I'm teaching people to be happier, to live life with passion, to love, to reinvent themselves, and find what they love. I have to be an example of that day by day.

Isn't it wonderful when you're working with people too? You talked about true voice. When you're listening to so much and for so much of our lives, we pretend. We pick up other masks, we drift, or we're not our authentic selves, but then when you truly abandon it, it's almost this huge relief because it's there all along. We only have to peel off all the other things that we have somehow put on ourselves and unfold that true voice that you said.

That difference between what I want versus what the world is telling me I'm supposed to want makes a big difference.

That's a secret to your unique purpose for being on this planet. The last point he talked about was the vision. For vision, he said that vision is nothing more than seeing what needs to be done, but then also going out and doing it and having a very practical, tactical aspect to it. Can you share with us how you craft your vision and how that drives you forward?

That is probably my favorite because the biggest transition I had to make from physician to life coach was to understand that I'm not here to prescribe. I'd come to the client-coach relationship with a vision of what I think would make this person happy and is worthless if it's not what they envision would make them happy. My biggest role as a leader and as a life coach is to help people find their own definition of their vision and what they want.

Sometimes, I help them raise the bar. Maybe they have a very low bar, and I remind them that there are other things. I help them elevate their mindset so they can see options that were previously invisible to their eyes and help them reconnect with that through voice and separating it from the noise. Ultimately, my leadership as a life coach is to help people figure out what their own vision is.

Do you have somebody help you figure out your vision too?

I have had coaches. Now, I have a coach that is helping me with my business vision. She's challenging me in many ways.

Can you unpack that for us? Tell us about what's next for what you're doing. It's great that you're pouring into other people, but we have to always realize we have to have somebody pouring into us too. Can you tell me some of your thoughts about what that looks like for what's next for you?

Precisely because I refuse to repeat the story of burnout in medicine, I have been until now very limited to a very exclusive one-on-one practice and refusing to visit. This coach is helping me break to the next level. Not only to see one-on-one clients but also to have groups and courses and expand my message. If I want to touch more people and grow regarding my income, I need to break that glass ceiling and start speaking to a larger audience.

Tell me, Diely. Where do you speak? Do you have anything coming up? Do you get out and speak?

Yes. I've spoken in the community a few times. The next time, a support group for female physicians is inviting me to speak in April 2023. The last time was a group of breast cancer survivors. I'm a breast cancer survivor. I have been exploring keynote speaking, but little by little. It is mostly a way to give back to the community.

We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. I appreciate your input on that. Is there anything else regarding The Price of Leadership that we haven't touched on that you would like to share with the audience?

A couple of things come to mind, but I think the most important would be to be intentional. Every moment when you are going to speak to someone or take a step, know what your intention is and why you are doing it. In my case, that is very important for me to differentiate. “Am I here to help this person or to be liked? They may not like something I need to tell them, but I am not here to be liked right now.”

Leaders On Leadership: Every moment when you are going to speak to someone or take a step, know what your intention is and why you are doing it.

Usually, I'm a very loving coach who's very soft, but sometimes I have to push a little bit in that direction. Sometimes, “Am I connecting with this person? Do I have a message for this person, or do they have a message for me? Is my intention to learn from this person right now or to give to them and have them learn from me?” At every step, you ask the question, “What's my intention now?”

Tell me about your ideal client and if our readers are thinking about this. Also, I noticed in some of the books on Amazon that you talk about the romance aspect of it. Can you unpack that for our readers?

When I first started being a life coach, I was a little on strike against medicine. I did not want to call myself a life coach for physicians. Most of my clients were women transitioning after divorce and heartbreak. I have a very interesting story myself. I was a divorced mother of four kids, including a kid with special needs. I had never dated in my life and nobody thought I was ever going to find a husband.

I ended up finding my soulmate. We're happily married. We've been together now for many years. He's become a stepfather for my four children despite the fact that he never had biological kids himself. That success story was inspiring women that you can find love after divorce. Divorce could be something good that happens to you and not the end of your life. That's where my initial interest was and where my first clients came from.

Divorce could be something good that happens to you and not the end of your life.

However, because I'm a physician and they knew me that way, I started having more and more physician clients, and I now specialized also in helping physicians make either career transitions, job transitions, or to be happy where they are when it’s time to retire or to change. In summary, my ideal client is usually a woman. I call her a fully grown-up woman.

At that moment when we are finally ready to start listening to our voice and not to the world, we already finished our milestones. Maybe we already decided whether to have children or not. We finished our careers, but now it's time to listen to our true voice. That varies, but it usually starts as early as the mid to late '30s and as late as the mid to late '50s.

According to Jung, depending on whether your parents are alive for longer or not, our midlife decisions and changes can be anywhere in that age range. My ideal client is a woman in this age range. They are usually very smart and highly educated and are now, because of a life transition, divorced, burned out, has a breast cancer diagnosis, or empty nesting for the first time in a while asking, “What do I want? How do I want my life to look like?”

It is listening to her voice and not the voice of the world. Diely, that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. What is the best way to connect with you? Is it LinkedIn, is it social media, or your website? How do you prefer to be contacted?

Nothing beats booking an appointment. My calendar link is there, face-to-face. There's so much more that can happen especially checking for feed, chemistry, common ideas, and common values. There's so much that is better done in a quick talk than trying to engage, but if there is someone who wants to check and exchange ideas before getting there, email is always better.

Diely, thank you so much for sharing your story on what it takes to pay the price of leadership, for your courage to find your true calling, for sharing all the things that you've gone through, and now for your desire to help other women walk along the way and give back to your community.

Thank you for having me. It is a pleasure to share some ideas here.

To our tremendous readers out there, thank you so much for being a part of our tremendous tribe. Remember, if you like what you read, please be sure and hit the subscribe button, share this, and we'd be honored if you would leave us a five-star review. Be sure and reach out to Diely too. You're going to want to stay in touch with her. For our readers out there, have a tremendous rest of your day. Thank you so much for paying the price of leadership.

Important Links

• Dr. Diely Pichardo-Johansson

• Dr. Madeline Frank – Past Episode

• https://JoyfullySuccessful.com/seven-steps-to-freedom-and-passion/

• https://www.Amazon.com/Bouncing-Back-How-Minimal-Expenditure-ebook/dp/B094LJMG7K

• https://www.Amazon.com/stores/D-Pichardo-Johansson/author/B071G6VF64

• https://Calendly.com/joyfullysuccessful/clarity-session

About Dr. Diely Pichardo-Johansson

Dr. Pichardo-Johansson is a former Hematologist-Oncologist, a Life Coach, and Amazon bestselling author. But she prefers to describe herself as an oncologist who, after becoming a cancer survivor decided "Life it's too short. I don't want to make a living fighting death anymore, I'd rather make a living celebrating life." She specializes in helping professional women make romantic and career transitions so they can live the life they really want."

Episode 160 - James Carpenter Barnes - Leaders On Leadership

What does it take to pay the price of leadership? Leadership has one of the most challenging paths to track, but it is a beautiful calling. In today’s episode, James Carpenter Barnes, Ph.D., gives light into leaders on leadership to become more like the Creator. He explains how vision provides the ability to see amid loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. So, what fogs the clarity of your vision, and what fuels it? James is here to fulfill his mission to inspire everyone to become more like the Creator! Tune in to this inspiring episode and become a tremendous leader!

http://Life-Imagined.org

http://theyoubelongfoundation.org

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

James Carpenter Barnes - Leaders On Leadership

In this episode, I am so excited to introduce my special guest, Dr. James H. Carpenter Barnes. He is a Christian American Author and Public Speaker. He writes supernatural fiction thrillers and nonfiction books on scriptural-based personal development. His mission is to inspire all of creation to become more like the Creator. We love that here. James, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. I'm so honored to be a part of what you're doing touching lives and changing lives. That's what it's all about. That is the ministry of reconciliation, bringing humanity in connection with the Creator for us to begin to imitate Him, to duplicate the part of Him that is within us, within other people. Nothing else matters in this life but duplicating the Spirit of God within us, within others and sharing it and enhancing lives.

For the readers out there, I met James in Santa Monica, California, when I was out there for the ETHOS Film Festival and got to see a documentary premiere that many of you that are our followers have heard about. I got to meet James and see a documentary he created, which hopefully, we're going to talk about a little bit at the end. It's been wild these past few weeks, James, and what a blessing how providential that we got to connect at that event.

That was a blessing. Between me, you and the gate post, as they used to say in the South, you were my favorite.

You're tremendous, James. Let's get started. The readers out there love learning all about what different leaders have gone through in their journeys. Leadership is one of the toughest things we're going to do, but it is such a beautiful calling and a triumph. My father gave a speech called The Price of Leadership. It’s probably the top speech that he ever gave. In it, he unpacks the four things that you are going to encounter as a leader if you're going to be paying the price of leadership and not just calling yourself a leader.

James, the first one he talked about was loneliness. We've all heard that it's lonely at the top or heavy is the head that wears the crown. Can you unpack for our readers what loneliness and leadership mean for you and maybe a season when you were in it? Are there any words of counsel that you would give to them?

First of all, loneliness is very different from being alone. Loneliness is an emotional state that you're in. Being alone is a physical condition and it's temporary. You can change it at any given time but loneliness is different. There is a separation between that person and those that are around them. The reason for that is for you to learn the importance of hearing the voice of the Creator.

If you're a spiritual leader, you have to be able to hear the voice of the Creator of the Spirit of God. You have to be able to hear clearly. That's one of the reasons a lot of leaders have difficulty in making crucial decisions because there are so many voices they're hearing. They're hearing so many different sounds. The scriptures say that there are many voices and none of them are without signification. Many of the voices that we hear are not the voice that we need to be listening for.

I learned it early on in my walk as a believer and as I began ministry back in 1982, which is many years ago. The first thing I learned was loneliness because I lived in a car on the lakefront of Chicago. I would sleep at the Field Museum. I slept in the Museum of Science and Industry parking lot and Shedd Aquarium’s parking lot.

Every night, I'd have to move around to three different locations before the sun came up because the police kept making me move. Some nights, I would be in the car. I used to read the Concordance in my Bible. One night, a police officer came up. He tapped on the window. It was raining. It was real heavy rain and my car is sitting over in the cut. He came over and tapped on the window. I had my Bible. He said, “Are you reading a Bible?” I said, “Yes, I am.”

He looked at the Bible and he looked at me. He said, “You can't stay here. You're going to have to move.” I said, “Okay, officer. I'll move on to my other location.” The thing about loneliness is that it's a mechanism that God uses in any person that is of any significance on Earth. The reason for that is that He wants us to understand the importance of our dependence on Him because when you don't go through that preparation, you're susceptible to external input that can discolor your spirit and your focus. It can fog the clarity of your vision, which we're going to talk about.

Loneliness is a mechanism God uses in everyone to understand the importance of our dependence on Him. Because when you don't go through that preparation, you're susceptible to external input that can fog the clarity of your vision.

The beginning point is loneliness. Once you adapt, loneliness is an excellent place to be because if you think about it, Jesus, in his walk on the Earth was lonely but He was never alone. He would go apart to be in solitude to be or to communicate with the Father. If you notice, the Bible never talks about what Jesus said when He would go apart to pray. He never talked about it. The scriptures didn't mention it. The disciples didn't write about it because they didn't know.

They wrote about everything else but they couldn't write about that. What that means is that your solitude is very personal. It's between you and the Creator. That mechanism of loneliness is part of the attrition because it hones away the desire for popularity. It hones away the desire to be seen and to be recognized. It hones you to a fine edge where when you go through that, you are a different person when you're done with that loneliness process.

James, unpack for me a little bit of back your background. How did the Bible wind up in your car with you? Were you raised in a church?

I used to be a drug dealer. I was a musician. I played in the band. First of all, I was a pre-med student at DePaul University. Ending my junior year, my brother had a band. I'm a musician as well. My brother needed a guitar player. I was supposed to go play tennis with Dr. Crozet at Midtown Tennis Club.

He was going to help me get into medical school. I was supposed to play tennis with him and a couple of judges. I was moving into a different world and I went back into music. When I went back into music, I got back into drugs because I wasn't a believer. I wound up moving into an apartment where there had been some type of ritual that took place there.

The people told me later after I went through my ordeal. They told me that a woman had been murdered in that apartment. While in that apartment, some evil forces got ahold of me and that was what the Creator used to get my attention and say, “You need to make a change and you need to make it now.” Many of us know that crisis is the catalyst for change. Until that crisis happens, many of us skip to my loo right along through life, thinking everything's okay, then we wind up in a bad spot.

At that point, I couldn't stay in that apartment. I wound up living in my car that entire summer of 1982. The Lord blessed me finally with another apartment in September of that same year. During that time, June, July, August into September, I lived in the car. I would go to this place called Soul Queen Restaurant. I would eat all I could hold in that one meeting because it was all you could eat. I'd go there once a day and I would get stuffed.

I didn't go back to my mom's house. I went there. I lived in the car. I ate a Soul Queen and I would go to my mom's to take a shower or whatever but I would leave. I spent my time fasting, praying, reading, and studying. I would fast Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and all-day Sunday. That's all I did but my growth was so rapid from 1982. I started traveling as an evangelist in 1984.

It was a couple of years that I began ministry but I had to because of what I came out of. Even in the apartment that I got, there would be spirits walking through the house. I had to learn to take dominion over these things. That's why I know that loneliness is to hone you to a fine edge where you become a weapon, not only spiritually but naturally as well. You're able to help other people because you've been there, you've done that, and you know how to deal with it.

I love that you called it the beginning point and that it's in a mechanism. As you said, loneliness is different from being alone but I have never heard it unpacked like that. Don't we all have to get that desire for popularity and to see it? That's what's driving all this mental illness and this narcissism going on now. Stop. I love that you drew to that. God got to get you alone, even if it's in a car. What better place than that?

The next thing my father talked about is weariness. He would joke and say, “Tracey, you're always going to have some people do way more than what they need to do as a leader and a lot of people that do way less. The buck stops with you, so you have to be able to make it all happen and be on your game.” How do you combat weariness and how do you stay strong, James?

Without going too far ahead because each one of these works in tandem. There's something in the scripture called compound conjunction. That's when you'll see the spirit of love, joy, and peace. What that means is that each component is linked by that conjunction but it needs that to rest upon the next adjective of interpretation. Each description rest upon the other.

Loneliness rest upon weariness, the next one, and so on. The scripture says, “Be not weary in well-doing.” The reason for that is that there are going to be challenges that come to dissuade you and discourage you. The reason Paul wrote that is that he'd experienced frustration. He'd experienced being tired in his body. His spirit is willing but his flesh is weak and we all experienced that.

We have to keep in the forefront of our minds that we have an assignment, a mission, and a vision. Be it in sales, as a writer, in television, movies, music, teaching, taking care of children or dealing with children with special needs or special circumstances. You're going to need that because there are going to be people that fail you that let you down.

We have to keep in the forefront of our minds that we have an assignment, a mission, and a vision.

There are going to be times you're going to have to do your part and theirs. You cannot allow the fatigue or the lexical disposition of another to dissuade your fire and your passion because passion is the fuel that enables you to keep going with your vision when the circumstances have gone against you. When the situation has turned sour, it's no longer sweet and its taste is no longer enjoyable. There are no more people saying, “That's awesome what you're doing. I wish I could do that.” None of that's happening.

You're in the dark now. You're in a dark place. You're dealing with loneliness. You're tired. You are weary. You cannot become weary if you are knowing that you're doing well. The scriptures also say, “Let patients have her perfect work.” The reason James wrote her is that women nurture and bring forth life. That was the reason he used that pronoun. He could have said it or him but he said her. The reason for that is that patience enables you to endure weariness and loneliness. Again, it's honing you, preparing you, and prepping you for that which is to come which we are going to talk about in a little bit.

Leaders On Leadership: Patience enables you to endure weariness and loneliness.

I love how you took weariness and put patience into it because a lot of times it's like, “You got to stay suited up and strong.” You do but a lot of times patience is put to work. I love that. Thank you so much. Loneliness, weariness and now the next term he used is abandonment. A lot of times people think about abandoning a marriage, a child, or a pet. It has a negative connotation but in the price of leadership context, my father talked about how you need to stop doing what you like and want to do in favor of what you ought and need to do.

I can remember looking at him and saying, “How'd you get so successful?” He would say to me, “Tracey, I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success.” He kept honing in. You have to be focused. There are all these other distractions. You talked about the voices and he talked about abandonment and that you have to stay hyper-focused on your purest calling. As you said, these are building on each other. James, you've been through a lot of different things. As an evangelist and a writer, you've done these different things, how do you abandon and stay on point and on focus?

The thing I remember about abandonment is this. It’s a twofold thing. There's withdrawing or shedding and there's also the abandonment of people leaving you. I always use Jesus as the example because He's so perfect. When we think about abandonment, a lot of times we hear scripture and we have seen it depicted in films. The night that Jesus was betrayed, Judas came with the 30 pieces of silver and betrayed him with a kiss on the cheek. Peter cut off the soldier's ear and then Jesus healed it.

He told him, “Don't you know I can call twelve legions of angels if I wanted to? My father would wipe out the planet if need be.” The thing was they abandoned Him at the most crucial point of God's plan for men of reconciliation, creating a system to propitiate men from sin and reconcile us back to the Creator. They scattered and ran. Why? It’s because they had to. If they'd hung around and fought, they would have impeded the sacrifice that needed to take place at Calvary.

If they had hung around, they would have been a hindrance rather than a help in God's plan for mankind. So it is with the things we have to shed in this life. When I became a believer, I love music. I was one of the best guitar players in Chicago based in my opinion. I gave all my equipment away. I gave my guitar away. I gave everything away to my younger brother and to other guys in the band I was playing with.

We were in the recording studio. We were recording with one guy that was the band leader who tour with Earth, Wind & Fire. We had the horn section from the commodore. We were in the studio recording. When I got saved, I said, “I'm done with this. I'm out.” My brother was devastated because I used to write a lot of the music for the band. It threw things in disarray. I'm sorry but I had to abandon them.

In a sense, they had to move away because I needed to launch out into a place where they couldn't go. There was nobody else in the boat with me but the Spirit of the Lord and His Word. It was on that sea of loneliness and weariness. I'm out there by myself and I had to let these things go. The reason you have to let them go is that they will be an anchor, a hindrance.

Paul wrote in the book of Hebrews to lay aside the weight and the sin. Now weights aren't necessarily a sin. He said weights and sin, which means they're two different things. The weights can be people, places, things, habits, or things that you enjoy. It could be your diet, your best friend, your parents, your job or a hobby that you have. It could even be something religious. You're tied to a religious organization but it's a hindrance to what you have been assigned to do.

You have to let be willing to abandon things and allow people to abandon you because in the long run, like the scripture says, “Be not weary in well-doing. You will reap if you faint not.” It’s just as Jesus told a rich young ruler, “You've done all these things up to this time.” The Scripture said, “Jesus looked on that rich young rule and he loved him.” He said, “There's one thing you lack. You need to sell all your wealth and riches. Give it to the poor. Take up your cross and follow me.” He said, “You asked a hard thing.”

In other words, in our vernacular, he was saying, “I understand what you're saying but do you know how much money I have? Do you know how rich I am? Do you know how much Bitcoin and gold I have? Do you realize what billions of dollars I have? Do you want me to give it up and go carry your cross? I'm sorry, I can't.” He wasn't willing to abandon the wealth.

Jesus told the disciples. The disciples were like, “If that's the case, who can be saved?“ Jesus said, “Anybody that gives up their mother, father, sister, brother, houses, or land in this life for my sake and the gospel will receive a hundredfold in this life.” When we allow ourselves to not only be abandoned because sometimes that abandonment opens the door for a replacement, it's like a spaceship.

Leaders On Leadership: Abandonment opens the door for a replacement.

A spaceship has 2 or 3 stages and that first stage falls off because it's no longer needed. It becomes a hindrance. Once it has expended its fuel capacity, it falls off. The second stage is the same thing. It served its purpose to launch that capsule into the ionosphere beyond the earth's atmosphere. Now it doesn't need as much fuel because there's no gravity.

You need more energy to break the barrier of the earth's atmosphere. It takes more energy and more power. It’s a different type of power, a different type of energy to lift a movement, a work, a business, a dream, or a vision from ground zero into lofty places. It doesn't get there overnight. You got to expend that level of passion and support and when it's done, it's served its purpose. It's nothing against who or what it was that carried you there. It served its purpose and then it goes forward. Eventually, you are going to fall off and someone going to take up. If it's a work of the Lord, if it's a work of the Kingdom of God, you're going to fall off because you will have served your purpose.

First of all, as an amateur astronomer and sci-fi fan, I love the spaceship analogy. Our readers know that but I love that you talked about that. I love the fact that when you talk about abandonment, I hope this gives our readers. I hope it gives you zah for your soul. A lot of us think, “Somebody who was in my life left or I had to leave somebody.”

You're right, it's not just us doing the shedding. Sometimes we get shed. When Jesus said to his disciples, “You can't come with me,” I'm sure that was not a fine conversation because they were like, “What do you mean we can't?” “I'm going to a place where you can't go.” “What do you mean, Rabbi teacher? You're supposed to be doing this.” I love that you talked about that.

For our readers out there, you can look back to the people that were in your life for a season and they're not there anymore. Sometimes it was a good separation. Other times like a rocket ship. It was a violent falling away or whatever but as you said, James, there's always a reason for it. Understand that reason and I love that you talked about and the trajectory. We'll have our place where we're helping lift other little rocket ships off and watching people, sending off all his stuff and then it's off for you to go do off to glory and for the next person to come up. I am going to read this session again and again. I could sit and listen to you for hours, James.

What's interesting and what's powerful is this. Dr. Tracey, once you break free of the Earthly realm, your dad's already done it, then you can accelerate into the immeasurable vastness that our Creator is still creating. Physicists have proven that the universe is growing at an accelerated rate. God is still creating. There's a reason for that. We have assignments. Once we leave this earth, there are other things.

Once you break free of the earthly realm, you can accelerate into the immeasurable vastness that our creator is still creating.

This physical body stops but we do not stop in him because we are connected to the life of God. This is a launching pad to take us to the higher heights and the deeper depths of the creation. When you stop and you think about that, the life we live here, even the way we handle our money, the way our discipline, our qualities, all of that goes with us.

What we're going to be doing in heaven? I tell people, “Do you want to be unemployed in heaven? No. You better get to work right now because what he's honing for you now is what you're going to be doing for all eternity. This is the proving ground. Do it down here in this age where it's not meant to be because we're going to be doing it for an eternity and perfection.”

We're being prepared, plain and simple.

Loneliness, weariness, abandonment which we could go on and on for that but the last one is vision. James, the vision that Jesus has or some of these people that think otherworldly. My father would always say, “Tracey, vision is nothing more than seeing what needs to be done and doing it.” Jesus said that too, “The harvest is full but the laborers are few.” There's so much out there to do. Vision is not just seeing it but there's this execution. It's putting it into action. Can you share with our readers how you continue to hone your vision and keep propelling to the next level?

Vision is crucial. Vision is what the seven streams of revenue that exist. There's wisdom, vision, and knowledge in this application, a good name, relationships, real estate in land and investments and silver and gold and money. Money is number 7 out of the 7. 1) Wisdom. 2) Vision. Vision is significant to acquiring and maintaining wealth. Why is that? To have vision enables you to see in the midst of the darkness of loneliness, in the midst of the darkness of weariness and in the midst of being abandoned.

To have vision enables you to see amid the darkness of loneliness, the darkness in weariness, and the midst of being abandoned.

Vision gives you a supernatural ability to see in the midst. You could be perfectly blinded. The reason vision is still able to see is that vision is within you. There's one thing to see but to have the vision, you can see it with your eyes closed or your eyes open. When you're going through dark places and through difficulty, it’s like what you were saying. Your dad would say, “You see something that needs to be done.”

Sometimes if you don't have a vision, you can't see what needs to be done because of the minutiae and noise you're surrounded by. You're so concerned about how lonely you are. You don't have any friends. You're so concerned about how tired you are. You're so concerned about who's left you, who's no longer working with you, or who's no longer supporting you. I had people, they were giving and now I don't have anybody. Yes, you do.

The scripture says plainly, “Casting all care upon Him for He cares for you.” That is what is our hope in enabling us to consistently maintain our vision, write the vision, and make it plain that see you fit can run with patience the race that is set before them. Who's going to see the vision? You're going to see it. Your angels see it. Who was working with you can see it with their eyes closed or eyes open. If they're blind in one eye and can't see out the other, they could still see that vision because it's inside. It's within you and nothing can get to it because it's protected by the girding of the loins of your mind.

It's protected. It can't be affected like I was saying earlier about being able to make a decision. If you've got a vision, you don't have a problem making a decision because you see clearly what needs to be done. Jesus did not see. He did not perceive with the natural eyes of man. He saw as God saw. Vision is essential. Vision is the rope that ties the other 3 qualities and the 4 legs of that table of leadership.

Leaders On Leadership: Vision is the rope, the tie that ties the other three qualities, the four legs of that leadership table.

Vision is in the right corner. It’s the cornerstone that ties the whole thing together because as long as you can see, as long as you can perceive, you don't have to worry about money. You don't have to worry about abandonment, loneliness, and weariness because you can see yourself. You can see the light where there isn't a light. You can see it because you're seeing God's plan for your life in your vision, in your mind's eye. That's what we have to look at. That's what I've always looked at.

I'm going to share something with you. Many years ago, in September of 1982, I was in the prayer room at our church. I thought, at that time, that it had been three months. Three months before, I was selling drugs. I'm ready to go forth now. I need $120,000 to fund my ministry. I had learned that much in those three months.

Do you know what the Lord told me? He said, “I'm going to teach you how to invest your money to get that amount of money.” I said, “Awesome.” That was 1982. 1992 came and 2002 came, so I got into real estate. I was buying and selling real estate. I had real estate that I didn't even see that I owned. I was buying and selling silver bullion coins. I had real estate with tennis. I had properties I was flipping. My head was this big. It was so big I could hardly get in a car. I had to slide into the car. My head had gotten so big and God allowed that.

He allowed me to have all of that and then lose it all. Now, fast forward to 1982, 1992, 2002, 2012 and then 2022, God revealed and gave me the opportunity. It was nothing I did. He put me in the spot. As I said, God will put you in that spot for something that he wants you to have when you're ready for it. He put me in a position where I will very soon have that money that he promised me. That's not going to do with anything else. This was a hunk of money I asked for.

He put me in a position where I will have that money. What's interesting, I did the math on it and $120,000 in 1982 is $340,000 in 2022 money, which is the exact amount that I have. I used to trade stocks. I did options and made money but I didn't make money like I didn't have to do anything. God did it. My point is that when you go through these things and you maintain your vision. I maintained my focus on serving. I've always been a servant. I've always sought to help. I was never called to be a pastor. I never tried to be a pastor. My function was to serve whoever needed it.

At my church, I played guitar. I was a soul-winner. I was a Sunday school teacher. I taught twelve-year-olds and teenagers. I took the garbage out at the church. I did some of everything. I never sought to be some great somebody. It wasn't in me. Even now, that's my nature. It’s to serve. When I met you, I was serving Dr. Dentley. I got two television shows on his network and he asked me to come out to be a part of what he was doing there because he knows how I am and the quality of work that I do.

When I'm committed to something, that's all I see. I don't worry about what someone else is doing or being weary. If I'm in a place of service, that is what I do. That's the reason I connected with you because you have that heart to serve. The scriptures say of all things in leadership, “If you desire to be a leader and you don't have the heart to serve, to be the last one fed, to be the one to turn the lights out, to be the one there to open the door when things open up, then you need to think again about being a leader.” The first prerequisite for being a leader, Jesus said, “Those who would be great among you, let him be the servant of all.”

James, we're wrapping it up with loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. What else have we not hit on? I love how you've tied it together. You called it the table of leadership. Each of these are one of the legs, and it’s beautiful. I had never thought about it like that. Is there anything else that we have not touched on that you would like to share with our readers?

There are people who've been designated to read this. I know that because of the calling I saw my life. My voice is for certain ears. When the ears hear it, they'll recognize and there will be an inner witness. Do not be discouraged and the good that you're doing. Do not be disheartened in the efforts that you put forth, the sacrifices that you've made, and the credit that you did not yet.

A monument has been set for you before the throne of the Creator. It’s a monument with your name on it that highlights the work that you've done. You will move into the place that God has ordained because God is raising up those who are last to be first in these end times. Don't be discouraged. Be of good cheer. As Paul said, “Be a good cheer.” Jesus said, “Be a good cheer. I'm coming aboard. We’re going to go to shore.” God is coming. He's going to meet you. He's going to visit you and you're going to see a sudden acceleration and change in your life. In 2023, this new coming year is a year of higher heights and maximum production.

Leaders On Leadership: God is raising those who are last to be first in these end times.

James, I love that. Thank you so much. You said you have a couple of shows going on. How do people get in touch with you, James? I know our readers are going to want to connect with you.

I have two shows on the JD3 Network and now, they're updating the network, so I don't know if they're taking it offline or what, but it will be our real cool. Also, I'm on YouTube. I'm also on Creative Motion Television, The NOW Network and ADtv. I have shows on there as well. You can go to our website, Life-Imagined.org. We also have a nonprofit, TheYouBelongFoundation.org.

The You Belong Foundation is a foundation where we serve the needs and we provide services and resources to members of the special needs community and their families. I have a special needs son, Christian. We endeavor to reach out to encourage the parents, especially a special needs child because many times they feel alone. They feel abandoned and isolated, and they need to know that they are not alone. That is our slogan, “You are not alone.” That's our focus.

I’ve got to tell you something, James. There are a couple of things you said that ignited my soul. I thank you for the wisdom, for your work, and for your using your talents to glorify God. You certainly achieved your goal of helping His creation want to be more like the Creator. I can't thank you enough for your wisdom. I know our readers are going to be very blessed, and I look forward too. It's only been weeks but if this is the pace it's going to be on, that's all right by me.

I'm looking forward to it.

Thank you. For our readers out there, thank you so much for being part of our Tremendous Tribe. If you enjoy this episode, please do us the honor of getting on to wherever you read. Give us a five-star review, hit the like button, subscribe, and also share so other leaders out there can understand what it takes to pay the price of leadership. Thank you again, James, for being a part of this discussion. To our tremendous leaders out there, you have a tremendous day, and keep on paying the price of leadership.

 Important Links

• James H. Carpenter Barnes

• TheYouBelongFoundation.org

• Life-Imagined.org

• YouTube – James Barnes

• Creative Motion Television

• The NOW Network

• ADtv

About James H. Carpenter Barnes

James H. Carpenter Barnes, Ph.D., is a Christian American author and public speaker. He writes supernatural fiction thrillers and non-fiction books on scriptural based personal development. His mission is to inspire all of creation to become more like the Creator.

Episode 159 - Dianna Booher - Leaders On Leadership

In this episode, Dianna Booher shares what it takes to be a real leader—which is to expand influence through communicating exemplarily and building confident trust! Dianna is a hall-of-fame speaker, a bestselling author of 49 books, a leadership communication & executive presence expert, a book writing & publishing coach, among the Global Gurus Top 30 Communication Experts, and among Marshall Goldsmith's Top 100 Coaches. Tune in to learn all about Dianna’s insights about paying the price of leadership, her passion for writing, and how effective communication is still the key to being a great leader!

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Watch the episode here

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Dianna Booher - Leaders on Leadership

I am truly excited because my guest is Dianna Booher. Dianna, welcome.

Thank you. It's great to be with you.

Thank you so much. She goes way back with The Joneses. She knew my mom and dad for many decades. She’s a veteran speaker and author. I'm going to tell you all about her before we dive right into this. She helps organizations communicate clearly, and she helps leaders expand their influence through a strong executive presence, occasionally by her own published book, which we are going to unpack here too.

She's the bestselling author of 49 books, some from Penguin Random House, Simon & Schuster, and McGraw Hill, and these have been published in 62 Foreign Languages. Her latest books include Faster, Fewer, Better Emails, Communicate Like a Leader, Creating Personal Presence, What More Can I Say? and Communicate With Confidence. Her clients include more than 1/3 of Fortune 100 companies. Dianna, I cannot wait to hear what you have to share about paying the price of leadership. Welcome again.

Thank you.

You knew my father. He was a very pragmatic and jubilant man, but he also knew what it takes to pay the price of leadership. One of his speeches was called Just That, and he did this many years ago, and it's still one of our bestsellers. In it, he unpacks the four tenets of what leaders are going to have to be paying in order to be paying the price of leadership. The first of those is loneliness, and we have all heard, “It's lonely at the top. Heavy is the head that wears the crown,” but can you unpack for us what loneliness has meant to you throughout your life and maybe share some tools for any of our readers out there that may be in a season of loneliness?

I had a company, a training firm until 2017 when I sold it, but loneliness there encompassed a lot of angst around cashflow. When you are a small firm, and we were about fifteen employees at max, every time there is a dot-com boat when we went through that, there's an energy crisis. We had mostly Fortune 500 organizations. We had about eight major oil companies. When they went through a big crunch as happens over and over, there's always a cashflow problem. That's something you can't talk to your employees about because you don't want them to go, “I’ve got to go look for another job,” so you swept that out.

There's usually a lot of travel involved with most organizations. With mine certainly as a consultant and as a professional speaker and even going on or off the tours, I would be on the road 3 or 4 weeks, sometimes 10 days in a row, not even having the weekend off. That was part of the loneliest time. If you are setting up partnerships from executive to executive, you want to show up in their office.

Now, people do more of that via Zoom because of COVID, but traveling was always a huge thing. Probably the third area that was the loneliest was when you had a poor performer and you had to do something about it. You can't talk to other people in the organization to say, “I'm thinking about letting Jim, Tom, Harry, Carol, or whatever go.” Those are lonely decisions that you have to make.

Thank you for sharing that because sometimes people look at great leaders and think, “Surely they were able to motivate everybody.” It's like we got the good, bad, and ugly. Like everybody else, we got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them. I love that you talked about cashflow, you have to keep that quiet.

I'm working with a client right now and that's one of the things that their boss does constantly vent on. “We are rich. We are poor,” and that's exhausting. You want to be transparent but I love that you share that, as leaders, there are certain things that we have to burden alone. If we need to get expert advisement, we get expert advisement.

This was another big energy crunch and the high-tech IBM was a big client of ours. HP was a big client. We had a lot of people that are in the industry. They're well-known and written up in the media. We are going through tough times and we are going to cancel any unusual or unnecessary activity like a speech, consulting, coaching, and training. During those times, I finally got to the point where I'm going to open the books. I'm going to show employees the profit level here and how it's dropped during this crunch and that helps, but they do not bear being responsible for everybody's salary.

That's a great point. You don't want them to know the details of that. Talk to me about when you sold the company in 2017. Did you feel a sense of loneliness after that? I know you reshaped yourself and we'll talk about that with your vision, but did you feel lonely then?

Not really because I was ready to turn loose of that company. Not loneliness after that happened, but up to the point of discussing it, yes. Not having a peer. In the past, I have been part of mastermind groups and CEO executive groups, but at that particular time, I was not. This was a heavy decision to turn over your life's work to somebody else.

Charlie was turning it over to you and that was great. That was an ongoing feeling. He had a feel for you, your character, and your faith, and knowing the integrity would be maintained. You don't have that when you are selling an outside, your family outside, a good friend, or a best friend. That was a huge decision to decide to turn over my reputation to my training clients and my work and all my books. I have kept the rights too. We have taken those books and we have created more than 200 other products. You are turning over the integrity and the reputation for those other products and those trainings for with somebody else that you don't know. That was a lonely decision for sure.

I love that you brought up the mastermind groups and for our leaders out there, every leader we have been on here talks to it. I have mine. I have my coach that I pay. I have my mastermind groups that are so important because they are going to be some things you have to discuss cohort to cohort outside the company and familial bonds, and get some advisement and counsel. Thank you for that, Dianna.

First of all, we talked about loneliness, and then he says weariness. Charles would say in his funny way, “My problem isn't staying motivated. It's keeping other people from demotivating me.” That's worked with people. We get it, but he was always like, “You are going to encounter people that are always doing more than what they need to do, and then you are going to have people that are not carrying their weight.” As a leader, it stops with us, so we got to pick it up. We can't let anything fall. How do you combat and deal with weariness?

That's probably the weakest part of my life as a leader because I traveled, doing research for the books, doing author tours, and then traveling to do speeches and training. I was often on the road. I have already mentioned how often and that is very lonely, even though you have 40 other people that have flown in executives.

For example, IBM would fly in executives from all over the world and put them in this week-long program. There are people all around you but they are temporary people. They are not people whom you've built a connection and relationship with. They don't know about your business. It's a very surface interaction every night over dinner for five nights. The awareness comes from not having that support group, but it also comes from long hours.

Weariness as a businessperson comes not only from not having that support group but also from long hours of work.

I never managed to work just 40 or 45 hours a week. As a business owner, I was always working 55 to 60 hours. Sometimes on occasion, it would be 80 hours, but most of the time 55 to 60 hours a week. That wears you down after a while. You get physically exhausted and that's when I would practically sleep all day Saturday to catch up and that's not true. Physically, you can't catch up by sleeping it all in one day, but you trick your mind to think, “I can do that.” That's a weird time because of the long hours.

When you are chasing your passion or honing in your vision, there are times when you have to will your body to say, “We got this much downtime and we are going to keep going.” I think of Charles and the pace that he kept. It was relentless up until his last breath. He may not have been physically moving but spiritually and mentally, he wanted to finish that race strong. I love that you talked about being conscious.

I was going to mention also as an author that weariness sets in. I write a book in about three weeks, and most people go, “What?” I have a process that I used to use in course development that I intuitively transferred to books and I do write quickly. That means locking myself away, clearing the calendar for 2 to 3 weeks, and writing 12 to 14 hours a day. There's no rest period in a meeting or talking to somebody. There's no mental downtime. My dad used to talk to me about working so hard and working so long. When I was growing up, he would always say about homework, “You can't go out and play.”

I was a big basketball player, “You can't play basketball until you get your homework done. You always have to have your homework done.” Now when I have grown a company and I'm working long hours, my dad's always saying, “Slow down. Don't work so hard.” I said, “My work is never done. Remember how you told me to do my homework before I could play? I'm a writer. It's never done. You continue to go, rewrite, perfect, and polish.” Even when you send it off to the publisher, you think, “It's still not done. I could still have improved that.” There's that mental drive and that mental stress that being the best that you can be is wearing on your mind.

Leadership Communication: As a writer, the work is never done. You just continue to go and rewrite and perfect and polish. Even when you send it off to the publisher, it's still not done.

I know some people take a month off. How do you recharge?

Getting through the book is recharging. When I'm working on a long book, I drive fourteen hours a day until I get it done. Doing everything else is relaxation to me. What most people would consider play, I don't necessarily spend a lot of time on a hobby. My hobby is reading for my grandkids, but I love my job so much. I'm so passionate about writing that doing anything that's not that is a mental rest, like cooking a meal.

I don't normally cook. My husband does most of the cooking. If I decide I need a rest, then I go into the kitchen and bake something or cook, and I consider that's off. People might think that's work. For me, it's not work. I like visiting with my parents. That's a relief because I know I'm doing something for them. I'm helping them. That's a downtime.

Loneliness and weariness. The next term he used is abandonment. We think that abandonment gets a negative stereotype for those of us in pet rescue, abandoned as a child, or fear of abandonment. He would say abandonment is stopping doing what you like and want to think about and do in favor of what you ought and need to.

I remember saying, “Dad, you are so successful.” He's like, “I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success.” I'm like, “What?” He kept saying, “You got to abandon. You've got to hone it in.” Your books and products, you probably got 100 million people. Can you talk about this? Can you do this? Can you do a book on this? How do you stay so tightly focused?

That is tough. When I brought in a general manager, one of his first comments is, “You are doing 1,000 things. How can you stop doing 1,000 things? We need to focus.” I finally got aboard with that, but it took me a while to do that. I always felt like I was called and I know I was called. I know God called me to write. I had a very unusual experience when that came through very strongly and clear.

Anytime I was on the road speaking or doing training, I felt like I was abandoning what God had called me to do. The logistics, even like you say a show, there's a lot of preparation for that. You've got to send information or here's a description. Tune in to some past episodes so you get the feel of the show. Any little thing like that is logistics. Publishing and training have the same logistics. They are a “waste of time” because I'm not writing another book. I know they are essential. I agree with your dad about feeling like you are abandoning your calling.

As you said, the calling is intrinsic but then you have to have where the rubber meets the road. You have to have the resources. Jesus had His anointing but He still needed His disciples out doing their thing because otherwise, the word is written down and shared. You go here. I love that. It is essential. For leaders, that's a great point.

Even the management task or the task that I liked the least. I was one of those, “Here's the project, here's the goal, go do it and let me know when it's done.” That's probably not the best management philosophy in life, but one thing I did not enjoy is telling people how to do something. I say, “Here's the goal, and here's the end product. Here are your resources, budget, and deadline. Please go do it,” and that gave me less sense of I'm wasting time.

I love that you linked abandonment to delegation. General Patton said, “Don't tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.” It’s exactly what you said. If you have the right follower, you got to have a follower that says, “Boss, give me the big picture and I will take it over the goal line.” Not somebody that says, “You have to tell me every day what to do.” Your bench has to be full of self-starters, and I would think of the creative space it would be. You did a pretty good job. Perhaps abandonment, you need to look at your delegation and see what you can offload to other people.

Our tendency is to offload things we don't like to do and that's good when we can do that. We probably should be offloading things that we don't do well. We might enjoy it but we don't do well.

We have the tendency to offload things. It’s good when you can do what you don’t like, but we probably should be offloading things that we just don't do.

Loneliness, awareness, abandonment, and last of all is vision. I can remember sitting under people like you and everybody else growing up. I'm like, “This is like Nostradamus with these people. They’re visionary.” My dad was like, “No. It's just seeing what needs to be done and doing it.” I'm like, “I'm an operations girl. I can get my head wrapped around this.” Talk to me about what vision means to you, and also, I want to go back to something you said earlier about how you got the calling to write because clearly, that was a vision given to you.

As I said, when I started out being multi-focused, people would call and say, “Do you want to do an online course?” “I can do that.” “Do you want to create this big webinar series?” “I can do that.” “Do you want to do public seminars on publishing around the country?” “Yes, I can do that.” I was so scattered that it was so frustrating.

Once I got focused to say, “It's okay. God called me to do this. What I do well is write in communication coaching, coaching presenters, and things like that, but that's the umbrella.” Even the book writing is under the umbrella of communication because I'm helping other people communicate their vision, their management philosophy, or their idea of life balance. It's still under that umbrella of communication, but focusing tightly on what I do well which is right. That's a skill that God has given me. I feel better about that, and I feel like that is my vision for where my influence is and where I can most impact other people.

I love that you talked about it being under the umbrella because a lot of people scattered singularity, but then there are people that are multi-gifted. They are not going to want to do, “Dianna, you got to be a speaker. You can't write books.” That's not going to happen. I love how you link it all up to the one overarching vision. What's next? Talk to me about after selling your company and what you are doing now with the book camps.

I have a folder that is thick, so I could be writing ideas. I love to help other people get their idea and meet their dream. So many people call and they are so excited. “I have wanted to write this book for fifteen years, and now that I'm retired or I'm in my second career, I want to do that.” I love helping them as well. I have been doing Booher Book Camps. It's a three-day event where people come and they bring their idea. Keep a very small and it's virtual, so there are only six of us at max online.

We can help you outline your book, do your book proposal, and query the whole thing in three days, and that's real exciting. I'm very passionate about that because it's allowing me to deal with writing and publishing in that whole industry and staying up to date. Some people say that they like to work at this and that or the other. I always say, “I'd rather write than eat,” and I love to eat. I do love to eat but I love to write and help people write their books.

I love that at this stage of your life that you got it all back down to your true original love and calling. I love that you did all those other things because I know you love writing, but you still are a phenomenal leader, and other leaders need to learn from you. As a communication expert, if you are not a good communicator, you can forget about being a leader type thing.

How leaders get their job done is to communicate with other people. If they cannot communicate and motivate other people, they can't lead. It's essential.

If they cannot communicate and motivate other people, they can't lead.

Now we covered vision. For our readers out there that I'm sure are hanging on this every word, are there any other leadership tidbits or nuggets that you would like to leave them with?

No, other than empowering your people. I know that's a catchphrase. Everybody is saying that, but in these last few years, I have run into so many organizations who have let people work at home, and now they don't quite trust them because they can't see them. They have usurped power back where they could make a decision, call somebody back, and to give a discount if a customer had a hard time.

I'm seeing leaders not do that so much anymore. The lower-ranking person who may be interacting online with the customer or on the phone does not have that power. As strong leaders, they have to go back to trusting their employees, building trust, and building that connection so that they do feel empowered to take care of the customer.

Leadership Communication: A strong leader goes back to trusting their employees, building that connection, so they feel empowered to take care of the customer.

Thank you for that. It does take a secured and evolved leader for that. Where can people get in touch with you?

On my website. I'm on social media everywhere, but BooherResearch.com. If you want to go directly to the Book Camp, I have also that domain, BooherBookCamp.com.

Dianna, thank you so much. It was so great to connect with you again as a sister. You are my idol. I hope I can grow up and be half as tremendous as you. You've been a dear friend of my family. I go back and look at some old pictures. I had everything digitized, and you are in many of them with my mother and father.

I love them. They are precious people and role models for me. Your dad specifically because we were in a mastermind group, but he was particularly a role model for me.

Thank you, Dianna. For our readers out there, thank you so much for tuning in to the show. If you like what you read, please be sure and hit the subscribe button. Share it with somebody else, and we would be honored if you would give us a five-star review. Until then, I want you to reach out to Dianna. Also, if you have a book inside of you, I want you to reach out to Dianna. Check out her books on Amazon. To our leaders out there, I want to thank you all for continuing to pay the price of leadership. Have a tremendous rest of the day.

 Important Links

• Dianna Booher

• Faster, Fewer, Better Emails

• Communicate Like a Leader

• Creating Personal Presence

• What More Can I Say?

• Communicate With Confidence

• Booher Book Camps

• www.LinkedIn.com/In/DiannaBooher

• Amazon – Dianne Booher Books

About Dianna Booher

Dianna Booher helps organizations communicate clearly and leaders to expand their influence by a strong executive presence—and occasionally by their own published book. She’s the bestselling author of 49 books (Penguin Random House, Simon & Schuster, McGraw-Hill), published in 62 foreign-language editions. Her latest books include Faster, Fewer, Better Emails; Communicate Like a Leader; Creating Personal Presence; What More Can I Say? and Communicate With Confidence. Clients include more than one-third of Fortune 500 companies.

Episode 158 - Bonita Hightower - Leaders On Leadership

If you're looking to take your leadership skills to the next level, you're in the right place. In this episode, Bonita Hightower will share with us what the best leaders do differently and how they can help you become more successful. Other than being a successful businesswoman that opened Bonita’s restaurant, Bonita Hightower is a wife, mother, grandmother, an army veteran, and leader in so many ways. Tune in as we have a fruitful discussion on all things leadership!

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Bonita Hightower - Leaders On Leadership

I am so excited because I have one of our very own Tremendous Leadership fans, the one and only Bonita Hightower. Bonita, thank you for being here.

You're welcome.

We have a couple of other guests on here. I will let Bonita introduce them, but I want to tell you a little bit about this powerhouse of a woman here. Bonita is a mover and a shaker. She's a businesswoman, wife, mother, grandmother, and a respected Army Veteran. I love that. She's a speaker and an encourager. Bonita and her husband, Willie, opened Bonita's Restaurant in Plains, Georgia in 2015. Bonita enjoys preparing down home Southern cooking made from scratch. She has many loyal customers, but famous people have enjoyed her food as well.

President Jimmy Carter and his wife, Rosalynn, love the convenience of Bonita's delicious carryout orders. Adding value to other people's lives is the hallmark of Bonita's life. Serving others in her business and serving others through various ministry endeavors, motivates her thoughts and actions each and every day. Bonita, I'm so excited to talk all things leadership with you.

Thank you, Tracey. You too.

We've emailed, and she has been a loyal customer of ours. When we finally connected, it was like, "Where have you been all my life?" There were many beautiful values things from the military to motivating others to being a new author to being a sister in Christ. I'm excited to unpack the price of leadership. Without further ado, you want to hear from Bonita and her guests. We're going to go ahead and get started. Bonita, could you quickly introduce the two other guests you have?

I'm more than happy to. I have Gwendolyn Rhenwrick who is a divine connection. I met her several years ago. She was the guest of a Georgia Legislator who I was honored in Preston for years of being in service at the capital. She was his honored guest. Everybody was wondering who was John White going to bring to this celebration party, and it was Gwen. We connected right off the bat because of what her call is.

We grew together to understand that swimming is very important. Many people lose their lives because they don't know how to swim and they love the water. That was my call when I heard that the children are drowning because they do not know how to swim. That's another segment of my life, but that's how I met Gwendolyn Rhenwrick.

Leadership: Many people lose their lives because they don't know how to swim and they love the water.

Next is my oldest daughter, Helena Nicole Taylor, a Retired 1st Sergeant, who served 22 years in our United States Army Services. She has gone places that I've never gone to and don't intend to go to. She served in hostile areas. She has lost troops. Her suggestions were not honored by the higher-ups, but in the final analysis, they should have listened. Her 22 years were not easy. As a matter of fact, when she retired, I thought I retired because I was right there every step of the way with her.

Those are the two awesome women in my life. They're very strong and they know what they’ve got to do. My daughter is the MC for my first book signing. She told me what to do, "You need to do this." I said, "Do it. I'll follow. Tell me what to do." I don't have any problems with that, but that's who is on my left and right. That's who is with me.

The Price of Leadership: The Price You Must Pay to Be a Great Leader

Thank you, Bonita, for bringing Helen and Gwendolyn. Ladies, we look forward to unpacking some tidbits here and knowing more about you on the show as well. Let's go ahead and unpack this leadership. My father wrote a speech many years ago called The Price of Leadership. In it, he outlined the four things that you are going to have to be paying as a leader if you are going to be a true leader and not a leader in name only.

Ladies, we have a lot of people that say they're leaders, but they are not paying the price. The first thing he talked about was loneliness. You will experience loneliness as a leader. We've all heard that it's lonely at the top. We know Jesus had to go off into the desert for days on his own if you watched The Chosen. There are times you have to be alone, but could you unpack for us ladies what loneliness looked like for you and your leadership journey and how you dealt with it, and any wisdom or insights that you would give to our audience that may be in a season of loneliness right now?

Do you want me to start?

I'd love to Bonita if you'd start.

Leadership is something that you know you have been called to do. It's not something that you look over and you see somebody else that you might think is leading and you want to be like that. It's not that at all. Bottom line, you have to know that you have been called into that leadership role and then you have to accept that. I can say this freely on this show because Tracey is a Christian base. That knowing comes from deep within.

Leadership: Leadership is something that you have been called to do. It's not something that you look over and you see somebody else that you might think is leading and you want to be like that.

If you don't have it from there, then you're fooling yourself. You're shooting yourself in the foot because to be called to leadership is what it is, loneliness. No doubt about it. Don't kid ourselves. This is part of the package. I've been called to leadership. "I don't know exactly what all I got to do, but I'm going to embrace this that I feel deep within me."

It's part of the package. I was in the military too. Our readers know that. We have all been there. As a leader when you see what needs to be done and you say things, that is a terrible, lonely thing where people are like, "No, we're doing something else." Can you unpack that a little bit for us, Helena? We've all been there.

When I was being in these positions, I had to understand what my role was, and what called me to do the duty. I had to know that in and out. When I was questioned and I was questioned often, I knew that I was filing regulatory guidance. I knew that in the end that regulatory guidance would come to bat for me. Now, that's the secular part.

Biblically, I knew that God was with me. I knew that he would give me the courage to stand in front of that opposition often and state what it is. Do not bat an eye. Do not shutter, but say what it is and move out, and smart. I thought that was very important. As my mother stated, it can get lonely but I'm not alone.

I may not have something tangible in my eyes that I can touch, but He is walking with me. He is moving those mountains that are mountains. They are mountains. Without him, I would not have made it for 22 years, but it's because of that. It's very important to know that your help is more than a tangible person. He's the God. He is the Alpha and Omega. When you know that, you can walk there.

Helena, you said that you may not be able to see it, but you know. We've been in battle. We've been to war and you can't always see your commander-in-chief right there, but you know and trust. I love that you said that. For anybody out there, you can do it the secular way and have to know somebody's there approving of you, but there are going to be times, I don't care if you're the most brilliant leader in the world where you're alone. That's where the Holy Spirit is the greatest co-commander of your life of all. Thank you, Helena. Gwendolyn, how about you? Did you ever have a time when you encountered loneliness?

I'm in the phase of my most loneliness right now in pursuing and bringing the purpose that I was given a number of years by God, or this gift that I was given by God a number of years ago to bring into fruition and where he wants it to be right now and reaching out and changing minds. It's a very difficult task. I call myself a change agent. To change the thoughts and mindset about things in terms of life and saving lives. That's my motto and that's the assignment that I was given to save lives and that's where the swimming comes in.

Right now, I'm at a place where there is not sometimes always the opportunity to have access to like-minded folks that can discuss exactly where I am or what's going on. To be in that area that I'm pursuing and make changes. With Bonita, even though we are in different professions and our work is different, we are still at the same place of working to bring them forth.

Where I am right now is probably my loneliest because my purpose is growing and moving into various areas that I haven't moved into before. It's coming together. I've had to go through many barriers and dynamics, but right now, it's taking shape. That means having to stay put, still, quiet, isolated, and call forth and pray quite a bit and ask God for directions and listen to that voice and those directions. For me, right now, is probably a place where I'm at my loneliest as things grow.

Thank you for your transparency. A lot of people think, "When I find my purpose, I'm going to wake up and it's all going to be different." That's false. The more you dial in your purpose, the more alone you're probably going to feel because you are calling is only your calling and God has to work that out in you. Thank you so much for sharing that because anybody might quit their purpose, and they're like, "Why isn't everybody celebrating it?" I'm like, "This is between you and God." You have to go through this, and if he doesn't give it to you alone, this has nothing to do with anybody else so thank you so much.

We talked about loneliness. The next thing my dad talked about is weariness. Helena, you know this and we all know this, you are going to have to be doing more than what you should be doing because there are people that aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. It's s life. People complain about them, and I'm like, "It's life. We have to deal with it." How do you all stay at your top fighting form in business and ministry as mothers, spouses, and leaders? How do you combat weariness? Bonita, I'll start with you.

When you are divinely called to that role of leadership in every fold has not unfolded yet, but because I was divinely called. My catalyst for keeping going is the word of God. It tells me, "Do not grow weary in my well-doing," and that's it in the nutshell. That's what you said earlier, that's what I'm piggybacking on and I'm going to keep building within the last two because they are all a part of the divine package.

Do not grow weary in my well-doing.

Bonita, you had hit on it. The word starts in your mind. I don't care if you feel tired, that's your emotions. You start here, the word can then give you the energy, the divine package that you're talking about. I love that you went back to the word. I don't care if you feel tired, feelings mean nothing. We're going right back to the word and we have the mind of Christ.

That's exactly word the I've had hidden in my heart. The spirit knows you are weary. You need to know you are weary, but then when you acknowledge the truth, the truth comes and sends you the lifejacket.

I love that. Helena, how about you? You've been weary. How do you combat weariness?

Yes. When I become weary, it is because I'm not at my work. When I think, "I got this, God. I told you to do this one thing, but I got this one little piece of the task." As soon as I started, I become very weary, very overwhelmed, very anxious, and all of these adjectives. I say, "Helena, stop. What's wrong here? You are not centering the center of gravity on God. You're centering it on you and you're going to mess it up. Get back to the truth."

As soon as I do that, everybody's listening and soldiers are doing what they need to do. My husband's doing what he needs to do. That's how that works, but when I'm far and when I can do it on my own, that's when I don't. I have to quiet myself as Miss Gwendolyn said. "Lord, I must repent. I'm way out in the left field to get me back over there where I'm supposed to be. Please," and he does.

Gwendolyn, how about you? How do you combat weariness?

It's so interesting that we talking about this. I've been the head of the household and been running it where I raised my sons and with family, jobs, college education, and experiences. I recognized these shoulders were carrying too much. Sometimes didn't give me enough time to focus on what I need to be doing with what God said I need to be doing.

Most folks, family, and all of that don't usually understand that. You still have to move forward. What I have done, I started minimalizing and eliminating those things that weren't factors that were not going to move me forward with what God's will was. That meant materially. I had to let go of things and people. I had to get to myself and decide to get rid of the weariness so I could completely start focusing on what it is that I am to accomplish on this earth. I had to start eliminating those factors that were keeping me from that. That's what I've done.

Get rid of the weariness so you can completely start focusing on what you are to accomplish on this earth.

I started what I like to call purging. It's been very scary because I didn't have folks in there to replace them. I stayed patient with what God wanted to wait on him and send those replacements. Once I made room, got rid of those, and made those sacrifices of eliminating those things that were not moving me forward, I started getting more energized, and that's where I am now.

The weariness starts declining and it'll creep up and I'll get angry with myself. I'll get a little lazy when I'm weary. I'll sleep a little bit and take a little time. That's how I work with it for the last few years to eliminate those things and move forward with doing what I'm doing now. Taking another step. Anyway, I hope that helps.

It does. That tease up the third principle that you're going to have to pay, which is abandonment. Abandonment gets a negative thing like, "You were abandoned." When my father talks about leadership and I'm like, "How'd you get so successful?" He would say, "I do more today to contribute to my failure than my success." I'm like, "What?" He was like, "It's abandonment."

That means we need to stop doing what we like and want to do and start doing what we ought and need to do. It was this hyper-focus and you hit on it and Helena being in the military where you got to stay mission-focused. Bonita, with all these beautiful things going on in your life, God calls us to many different things, but how do you stay focused? Gwendolyn hit on it that it's the best and highest use of your time.

Abandonment is very essential. I'm always going to go back to that first thing. I'm divinely called. I have to qualify what I accept and what I don't accept where I go or will I not go? It has to be qualified. We have a knowing as Christian believers who are awake. We don't need to be doing that. It'll talk to you like I'm talking on this show. It's not coming in some scary voice or anything. It's something that you probably don't want to listen to, but you need to. What is this going to do for what I've been called to do? If it doesn't fit, then it's like me trying to wear two left shoes. In other words, qualifying what it is or what I'm being called to and asked to do. Sit still and qualify it. You'll get your answers. The answer will come. The bottom line, you don't have time to waste.

Even though God redeems the time, we want to be good stewards, and the biggest mistake I've ever made, you call it qualifying, is when I didn't vet the person and opportunity. I didn't ask God. "It sounds good. The Holy Spirit brought it." Helena, how about you? Can you talk to us about abandonment and how you stay on point?

I did struggle with this in the military. I would sometimes feel like my commander was abandoning me. I was his counterpart. I had to understand that he had a role and I had a role. Sometimes we're not going to say the same thing, but we're still getting the same end result. This allowed me to hone in on my faith. I had to tighten up my bootstraps and my faith walk because I couldn't see and I didn't understand. I consistently felt abandoned by him.

I would talk to him about, "Where are we at? Are we together? Are we not?" In the end, we were, but the Lord said, "Trust in me. I will work with him and you, but you have to have faith in me. You cannot have faith in him. If you have faith in him, you will feel abandoned. You will consistently fill out your outside of the game. Helena, get back in the game with me," and he will. In order to believe it, you have to have read it. In order to read it, that means that you had it deep within your heart. When going through, "I walk through the valley," not sit there, and eat a hamburger. You have to stay focused and move in faith. You won't be abandoned.

In order to believe it, you have to have read it. In order to read it, that means that you had it deep within your heart.

I even heard that with marriage, you don't grow together as husband and wife. You both grow to God and that's how you get closer to one another. That's not just a marital thing, that's a relationship thing, even with your children. Closer to God yields closer to one another in the relationship. Thank you, Helena. Gwendolyn, how about you with abandonment? You hit on your pruning and stuff like that and that's what abandonment is. It's getting rid of the things that are not the highest use of your time.

It's so important to say that these topics are so very on point for me right now in this walk where I am at this age. I am still struggling, at one time, through lots of prayers, with the abandonment of my adult sons. I had a very good relationship with them as they grew up. They are now, both professionals, and got their own families doing exceptionally well with their families, but the relationship and the connection that we had no longer exist.

I challenged myself and struggled hard with letting them go. My oldest one is 41, so he's good as an adult and a very solid young man and my youngest one is 39. They both have their own families and wonderful relationships. Both of them have been in good marriages for the last several years. They both got married and left to go on their own right in a few months. I didn't have time to adjust to moving from a mother to a mother-in-law. It's been a very difficult thing for me to feel as if sometimes I don't talk with them as well as much anymore because they're full of their lives and their own families.

That's the phase where I feel abandoned but through God and prayer. He said, "Let them go." He allowed me to see that they had done everything I wanted them to do and they are still doing very well. For me, that's very important right now. That's the most important relationship. That's my family. That's one of the areas that I admire with Bonita completely because she seems to be able to juggle her business and her relationships with her family, grandchildren, and daughters. I admire that completely. That's one of the areas that I cherish my relationship with her is because I get a chance to see how it works and she keeps going.

That's the disconnect and the place of abandonment that I am working on both spiritually and relationally. I had some good things happen with that. God opened doors and brought those relationships back to me. I had to stay put stay and quiet, but he's bringing them back that way. That's where I am with abandonment. All of these topics your dad put forth are right now very significant to me in this present place.

Gwendolyn, thanks again for your transparency and your honesty. I'll tell you that also brought up a thing, a twist on abandonment. When God closes a chapter or takes you out of something or puts you in loneliness and you do feel abandoned. When Bonita came out of the military, she felt abandoned because she was not one of the troops anymore, but there are seasons that come and go. Thank you for sharing that. We get a calling too, but you're still departing from something that was once in your life. Given God's glory that your heart is there and congratulations on raising such beautiful young men. The world needs more of that. You too, Bonita.

Loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and the last one we have is vision. My father is a pragmatist, a beautiful incredible motivator, and an eighth-grade dropout. It's not anything mystical. You don't have to have the IQ of Einstein or be Oprah or Mark Zuckerberg. He just said, "Vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it." Bonita, could you unpack the vision for us, and what it means for you? I know what you're going to say, but I never get tired of hearing it.

The words from loneliness, weariness, abandonment then vision, which is the foundation. The Bible simply says, "Without a vision, my people will perish." Without having something that you can physically see. Not only did you see it, but you also embraced it because you heard or read it. I remember the one scripture that the Holy Spirit showed me was Jeremiah 29:11, "For I know the plans I have for you." I remember my reaction. I said, "God, you got a plan? I need to do nothing but learn how to follow."

With that, I didn't see all of the things that he was telling me about how he was going to use me as his ambassador or his spokesperson. He told me, "Go study." General Colin Powell, look at what he did when he went to these different countries. He didn't speak on his own, but he spoke from the presidency. That's where he spoke from. He could only deliver the message that was given to him.

The vision, what he spoke to me is the one that has kept me rock solid in my valley days. Nobody knew what I was going through, but the vision held me steady. The vision taught me how to think. Hearing God's voice telling me, "Do this and that. Don't do this or don't do that." He used the military as a point of reference because he knew I knew how to soldier. He knew I knew how to take raw troops and make them into the lean mean fighting machine because I had that training as a drill sergeant. He would use the military to show me the world how to operate.

I had to learn how to operate in the spirit because the Bible is nothing but a spiritual weapon, but we don't look at it. We bring our colonel mindset and try to work it on our own. Both of these ladies have said is when you try to do it on your own, you are on your own, but when you use the word to guide, lead, and teach you, it's a no-brainer.

You sit back in the world, and even your closest friend or family says, "What are you doing?" "Nothing, because I'm at a place that I don’t have to do.” When you sow the seed, the farmer doesn't go back out there and dig that rascal up. We live around farmers. My children were raised around farmers. Gwendolyn would love to come out there where I live. She says, "You're right. You are this open." I don't see no farmer going out there digging up peanut seeds or cotton seeds when a storm has been posted. They leave that rascal in the ground.

That's what we have to do with our vision. Once we've embraced it, loneliness is coming and I'm holding on. For weariness, I'm holding on. For abandonment, "Don't sit over here. Bye-bye." Holding on steady. I have the freedom on your thing to talk about the word. The word is what got me free from my mental poverty mindset. That's all that had to change because the word is a change maker. Romans 12:1-2 says, transform this thing. "How do you do it?" It's by the word. Joshua 1:8, do this every day in and day out. That's a guarantee you can take to the bank when you don't have anything in the bank. You go, they got your money.

Claim that divine inheritance. I love that I will never look at fields again and I'm in South-Central PA and not think about that. He doesn't go up to the sea and say, "Are you growing? What are you doing?" It just happens. That's where it's supposed to be. I love it. How about you, Helena? What are your thoughts on vision?

Understand everything my mother said. I don't need to say much else. Vision means patience. People forget about that little one thing. It's important. "I saw the vision. I'm trying to walk there in it. Why isn't it taking place?" My ma just said, “It's because it takes time and it's not in your time, but when it comes it's there. Nobody's taking that back. Nobody's able to put that back in the ground. It's there, but it takes time.

During that time, you can't say, "I don't know where it is." No, be patient. That's important in the microwaveable society that we have now, but they want things right away. No, this is not what this is. It takes time. As Ms. Gwen talked about her children. I knew it took a lot of time and now they're doing their thing. You see the fruits of your labor. It takes time. The vision will come.

To your point, don't thwart it. Remember 40 years in the wilderness, it should have taken him a week. Why? Rather than waiting gratefully, they mumbled, grumbled, and they’ve thumbs sucked. When you do that, he will make you learn that lesson. He has more time than us. Wait gratefully upon him. How about you Gwendolyn? What are your thoughts on vision?

When you have a vision you have, that is something that is given to you. I have realized that a lot of people do not have a vision. You are lucky enough to have been given a vision of purpose, a vision of what it is you're supposed to be doing. Some days, I've had to question and I ask God, "Where in the world did I come from? Why did I get this? Why did you give me this?" Some of the visions I've had scared me to death. They were impossible. Some of them are still very much so. I think me as little Gwen thinks they're impossible, but he keeps wrestling with me and says, "This is what I've given you." That is what is.

For me, vision is the ability to be able to see what it is that you are supposed to be doing. It doesn't come with a straight road and we got that. For me to be able to stick with, not try to convince, but go ahead and do the vision that I know has been set for that I am to bring forth. A part of me along with others will be there to do that. The vision is so important for each of us. For me, it's pride and joy to be able to have been given the gift of having a vision. I've seen people that have no purpose and no idea. When you get forth and you see that, you say, "I'm blessed for having been given vision." That's where I am with that.

Vision is the ability to see what it is that you are supposed to be doing.

You think about Martin Luther King. I had a dream and I tell people that, but what is it? We say this like, "It's going to land him." You have to go find it, and it's what you are called to do, not what you want to do, and so you hit on that. That takes soul searching, humility, and patience. I look at Paul, how many times before he was blinded until he started ministry. How many years in the waiting?

The purpose of a vision, I love it because then it gets down into, it's all about God's calling, not the outcome. It gets it off of us and back on who it needs to be on. We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. This is crazy beautiful. Before we wrap up, I want Bonita to share with us about your book that just came out. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Tell us about it and where they can get it.

Believe is on Amazon. It's a very simple book. The Holy Spirit said it doesn't take long to tell the truth. The price is cheap. You spend more than that at Starbucks for something that can be something that you rightly need right now. I can say that without any hesitation or reservation because the spirit knows what's out there, what's needed, and how to get it out there. If he used me to do a simple book, then I'm saying it's out there. Your life jacket is in that simple little book.

Believe

I didn't have time to go into my office and get Tracey your book that I ordered from Tremendous Leadership and it's a little bitty book. Mine is a little bit bigger than that, but it's something that you can put in your car, purse, or wherever you need because he's going to lead you to go get that book. You need answers and I got them written down.

The book is a timely piece. I'm working on the 2nd and 3rd ones, which piggyback off of Believe. Believe is like, "Believe what?" Whatever you're hearing, believe it, and he'll show you how to walk it out. I read the first female president of Liberia and her last name is Sirleaf. She said, "If your dream isn't scaring you, then it's too small.”

The Earth is the Lord and the fullness thereof. He knows how to use you. I was talking to a lady, she told me to just keep cooking. She told me that back in the '90s. I chuckled and said, "God, I kept cooking and followed the instructions, and look what I stirred up." I stirred up a book. I got a book signing. I got a restaurant in the home of the 39th longest-living president. That's what I stirred up by cooking.

David did even more than that. He got a place on the throne with a slingshot. What do you have? Don't minimize what we already have. You don't need to go get anything. You might need to go get the book, but other than that, because you don't have it. This show is divine. Tracey doesn't know me. I don't know Tracey, but her father left a platform on Earth. As I was doing what I was doing our paths crossed, not her, but her father. I never met her father, but then Tracey is on the scene now because he left something on Earth that needs to be still going and she's going with it.

I got invited because God put me here. He made the connection that we Christian people out here, need to get rid of the negative mind and get into the spiritual mind and stay there because you can live there. He tells you how to live on Earth. The first change is you and me. I'm the change. Once we get that, we can move with that vision. We can embrace all the different areas that we talked about and touched base on. That's part of the package and keep it moving. That's what I have to say in summary.

Leadership: Christian people need to get rid of the colonel mind, get into the spiritual mind, and stay there because we can live there. God tells you how to live on the earth. So we want to change. The first change is you and me. I'm the change.

Tracey, I want to thank you for doing what you're supposed to be doing at such a time as now. I want to thank these two young ladies. I sit back and I look at them, and I'm grateful. To be able to bring them to a bigger table who we know not of is to be commended. Thank you for your openness. You will continue with that legacy. The book changes people's lives. Let's read guys.

As you said, it's not what is the truth, it's who. I hope that's the one thing you leaders figured out. Stop thinking, "What am I supposed to do next?" It's who. Either, you're the truth or you're not the truth. Either God is God or you are. Until you solidify that, then I hope you've heard these leaders at all orients back to that.

Ladies, I can't thank you enough for the richness of this dialogue, what you shared, the blessings you brought me, for being so transparent about what's going on with your life, and for what you've done to make this world a better place. I can't wait to see what happens. Our readers are going to be so blessed. Thank you, Helena, Gwendolyn, and Bonita.

You're welcome, Dr. Tracey.

To our tremendous leaders out there, I know you have thoroughly enjoyed this. If you like what you heard and please do us the honor to hit the subscribe button and leave us a review. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Most importantly, if you were blessed by this, please hit the like and the share button, and share it with somebody else.

Again, to all the tremendous leaders out there, you will be the same person five years from now that you are now, except for two things, the people you meet and the books you read. I know you are a whole different person in this conversation. Be blessed and keep on paying the price of leadership. Have a tremendous day.

Important Links

• Bonita's Restaurant

• Believe

About Bonita Hightower

Bonita is a mover and shaker, businesswoman, Wife, Mother, Grandmother, Army Veteran (141/2) Speaker & Encourager.

Bonita and her husband Willie opened Bonita's Restaurant in Plains, GA in 2015. Bonita enjoys preparing down home. Southern cooking made from scratch.

She has many loyal customers, but famous people have enjoyed her food as well. President Jimmy Carter and his wife, Rosalyn, love the convenience of Bonita's delicious carry-out orders.

Adding value to other people's lives is a hallmark of Bonita's life. Serving others in her business, and. serving others through various ministry endeavors motivates her thoughts and actions each day.

She just released her new book, Believe, which is available on Amazon.

Episode 157 - Dwight Utz - Leaders on Leadershi

You serve two important groups as a leader: your team and your clients. How do you navigate these as well as yourself for positive and successful leadership? Today's guest, Dwight Utz, serves as the Board Vice Chair for his alma mater, Central Penn College. He has an amazing background in leading organizations to their full potential as former President/CEO/Director of Peoples Bank in York, PA, and East Carolina Bank in Engelhard, NC. Join his chat with Dr. Tracey Jones as he expounds on the importance of staying in alignment with your team when it comes to strategy. Dwight also highlights the client experience as another key factor, along with staying informed and educated about what's going on in your industry. His mantra for leadership includes the three E's: energy, enthusiasm, and excitement. Hear more of Dwight's distilled wisdom on leadership by tuning in to this episode.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Dwight Utz - Leaders on Leadership

In this episode, I am so excited because my very special guest is Dwight Utz. I reconnected with Dwight at a Central Penn College fundraiser and was reminded of how tremendous he is. Dwight, thank you so much for being here.

Tracey, thanks so much for having me. It's great.

I got to put in a plug for Central Penn College, located right nearby us and it is the home of the Charlie T. Jones Leadership Library. Dwight, I want to tell you a little bit about him. He is the Board Vice Chair of Central Penn College. He is also a former President, CEO and Director of PeoplesBank in York, PA and also a former President, CEO and Director of East Carolina Bank in Engelhard, North Carolina. I am super excited to talk to Dwight about entrepreneurship, growing businesses, starting different things and education. Dwight, thank you again.

Tracey, this is wonderful. It was great reconnecting as well.

I can't wait to learn from you and we're going to get right into this. My father gave a speech called The Price of Leadership many decades ago and he talked about the four things that leaders are going to have to be paying if they're going to be true leaders. Dwight, the first of those is loneliness. We've all heard that term it's lonely at the top. Can you unpack loneliness for you as a leader may be in different venues, stages and enterprises through your life and share it with our readers? If they're going through a season of loneliness, what you would advise?

The old adage is the buck stops here. When I went to North Carolina as the CEO of East Carolina, it was a bank that was in very rural North Carolina. The CEO had sat in the seat for twenty-plus years and there was no strategic direction. When you talk about loneliness, you go in and the board says to you, “We want to be a $5 billion company in 10 years.” At that, you sit back and say, “Okay.” It was understanding what the bank was, what it did well and what needed to be changed.

It came down to it was a change in leadership, where our corporate headquarters was, raising capital, looking at M&A targets and how can we provide a better client experience. In that, you talk about sitting back and saying, “This is all on me and the team.” There's some loneliness in those kinds of things. It was well worth it. The board was very supportive. In that loneliness, you rely on your team and your board. In the end, what is most important is the client experience because, without a client, you have nothing. That's the loneliness I would describe to. It's exciting being a CEO but there are some very lonely days.

I liked how you talked about it because a lot of our leaders are good at fixing problems and fixers and have probably gone into organizations as you talked about. I got recruited several times to come in and be a fixer. It is lonely because you're trying to get the lay of the land. I love that you put the nuance of loneliness as you're lonely until you understand the context of what you're walking into.

You can identify with the other people that are looking at you as a new person and how you talk about it's because you are an outsider coming in. By default, you're going to be somewhat lonely but the more you understand, identify and then rely on the team, that dissipates. I love that you shared that progression.

A real key factor and most leaders hopefully get this and understand it, is the team that you build. It's not just the team at the top. Everybody keeps focusing on senior leadership and executive leadership. I suggest to you that if you don't focus on the supervisors and the middle managers, I will assure you, if they do not understand your strategy and what you're trying to build, you will not build it. It's that simple. That to me is the real key. Yes, you need key leadership but you need to understand and focus on that frontline leader because that is the key in my opinion.

It's not just your opinion. It's born out in leadership literature, which is what I study. I tell people it's the 80/20. Leadership is 20%. You can have average leadership and great integrators and frontline and be way more successful than fantastic leadership and subpar followership. You're right. They're the ones that make it happen.

It's like me when I was an officer. I hung so tight with my enlisted troops because they were the ones that made it happen. You can be up here with your fellow officers, which is great for camaraderie but whom you need to be tight with is your troops. I love how you put that out there. That's a very sound leadership principle for our leaders out there reading.

When I was in Louisiana, I was with a small community bank that was a startup. When I was hired, they were like, “Dwight, we want to get to $2 billion.” When I went in, it was very clear that the team who needed to execute were not the right leaders. Here's an example of a new guy coming in. I went to the CEO and said, “We've got 20 branch managers and 8 are true leaders.” That's a lot, in my opinion. My job was to drive revenue. Over three years, we made changes. You could see revenue go this way because you had the right team.

As leaders, we need to also see and be very discerning in seeing whom we need to take us to the next level. That's tough making that thing because you can't coach everybody to the level you need them at too. Since we're talking serious and season leadership, if they've been in the position for more than three years and it hasn't happened yet, you got to sit there and say as a leader, “Either you horrendously failed them or it's not going to happen.” We need to be real, call it and say, “If it hasn't happened, it's probably not going to happen.”

Thank you for your insights on loneliness and how to overcome that. That's something that everybody can take away because they're going to experience it, especially if they're brought in. If you're not, you might want to check and make sure you might be able to unself aware or something. Next is weariness.

My father would always tell me, “Tracey, my problem isn't motivating myself. It's keeping other people from demotivating me.” There's that element of, “You are fighting a good fight but there's always going to be an element of the team or people that are not all in.” How do you stay strong? As leaders, we have to stay at the peak of cognitive energy, attitude, professionalism and par excellence. How do you combat weariness?

Part of it is I live by the mantra of the three E’s. This is both in my professional life and also my family life. That is Energy, Enthusiasm and Excitement. Tracey, I hire, promote and mentor with those three elements. If a person does not show me those three attributes, I’ll suggest to you that they are not the right candidate. In some situations, they may not have exactly the talent level that you want but if they show me that, that means to me that they are willing to go that extra step to learn what they have as if you will deficiencies.

I love a challenge. That's what gives me the energy, excitement and enthusiasm to keep motivated and moving forward. I rarely look back. All you're doing is looking in the rearview mirror. It doesn't matter to me. I do love looking into the windshield. I’m a visionary. That's what I’m known for. I look out to the future of the folks that you hire to manage the date now. I try to look out for what we need and where should be going. That's what motivates me and keeps me going.

Look out to the future. The folks that you hire will manage the day to day.

For our readers out there, there's this school of thought that the leaders have to always be pouring into the people. We, as leaders, draw energy, enthusiasm and excitement. Leadership and followership are dyadic relationships. It's two sides of the same coin. If leaders have unmotivated employees, they start getting dragged down. My dad used to tell me, “Tracey, if you want a better leader, be a better follower. If you want a better job, do a better job.” I have found that I need their energy too. That's what gets me excited. I love that you brought that out because that is such a tremendous source.

I think of Churchhill and how beaten down he was. He went down in that tube and talked to the people who said, “We're behind you, come what may.” He drew that energy from the people, his citizens and then said, “We're not negotiating. We're going to go in for the fight.” I think about the speech that he gave. That's the classic example of drawing that energy, enthusiasm and excitement from your followers.

The next topic is something we all struggle with, which is abandonment. Not in a negative sense, like abandoning your duty or an animal but an abandonment of stopping doing the things that you like and want to do in favor of the things that you ought and need to do. In this sense of leadership, I’ve always been told, “The more niche you go, the more you grow.” A lot of times, as leaders, we’re like, “This bank or college is doing this. Let's do it all.” The more specialized and abandoned you become to your true focus, the more successful you are. How do you stay on point?

It's important that you stay focused on what's important. Especially when you’re in an active role, you can get so tied up and be looking at emails all day but if you don't stop, read and engage yourself in conversations with experts or councils, you lose it. My day would always start at 7:00. Between 7:00 and 10:00 in the morning was always my thinking time.

My time to focus on, number one, learning, reading and engaging in conversations with my internal experts on whatever the subject might be. If you don't learn continually learning, it's difficult to understand. I agree with you that you cannot be all things to all people. Particularly in the banking industry, it's accepting deposits, making loans and the client experience.

In every organization that I was with, the clear message was the client experience, whether that meant technology solutions to help with that or how we engage our clients. A lot of banks, whether it's commercial lending, commercial real estate or small business lending, are important but if you don't focus on the experience, you will have none of that because the clients have many choices in the banking industry. I agree with the statement, “You can't be all things to all people.” For me, the key is the client experience will permeate and create the opportunities that you need to grow your company.

Leaders on Leadership: The client experience will permeate and create the opportunities that you need to grow your company. 

I’m in publishing so are one million other publishers. In banking, there are actions that anybody could pay anybody to do but it's where can you do it better than anybody else? How did you know which aspect of the client experience? Maybe in a metropolitan city, it would be more tech or crypto. How did you find out exactly what it was for some of the rural banks? How did you get the business intel, so you knew what portion of the client experience to focus on?

It's all about data. A lot of people think about banks and data. If you look in every industry and you don't understand the data that's in front of you, you don't understand. In the community bank in North Carolina, we had branches from the Southern tip of Virginia to the top of South Carolina. In between, there were metro areas but then there were rural farming and fishing communities. If you think that you're going to deliver in a metro area and a rural farming fishing, in the same way, you're kidding yourselves. What a rural community wants is the touch. In the metro areas, they want technology solutions.

In the rural areas, the best success was us going out, sitting on a combine, talking to them about the moisture in the soil and how much crop they produce per acre. That is what drove them to say, “This is the bank that I want to continue to doing business with.” Conversely, in the metro area, they could care less about who the CEO was. They wanted quick access. In ATMs, they wanted mobile banking. It’s all the things but it's different in every market. You have to understand your clients and markets. That's how we did it. It’s data-driven.

Leadership is highly contextualized. It depends on a million different variables. Business is highly contextualized. You can get the sense but you also have to get what the research says. You can have a hunch but the research will bear it out. Thank you so much for that, Dwight. Lastly, you said that one of the things you like doing is being a visionary.

The last price my dad says is, “You're going to have to pay the price with vision.” He would say that vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it. He had a very pragmatic, blue sky but a blueprint perspective on it. I know you do as well because you would not have been as successful. I can tell from our discussion before you get the whole phrase, “This is nice but we got to make it work.” Can you share with us how you hone your vision? How do you get inspired? How do you know maybe when this vision is ready to be tweaked or shelved and onto the next thing?

Part of it is learning and educating yourself on the industry. I was very active in national organizations and state organizations. If you don't see trending and understand what is coming, then you're so far behind. You can't catch up. It's reading. There are things that I have presented to boards of directors that they look at you and say, “Where is this guy coming from?” This is what is coming, crypto. This is not going to be important. That was the board. It became important. Do we have to be experts? No, but we have to know what the impact will be and understand what the economics of our world and our country are and what impact will they have on what we want to do.

Tracey, I always tried to have our board look 3 to 5 out and make sure that they signed off and bought in. It's critical that you also educate your board and as well, make sure that your team understands. Part of why strategic plans fail is because your team does not know what your strategy is. What I did was published and delivered to every single employee a copy of our strategic plan so that when they had their weekly meetings or monthly meetings, they all knew where we stood with our plan. If they don't know, how they execute is my question. They don't.

Part of why strategic plans fail is because your team does not know what your strategy is.

Vision sometimes gets very esoteric. I’m not a Bill Gates or a Mark Zuckerberg. I love that you tie it to vision as the education of the industry, the impact and the economics. First of all, it is out there and it's our job as visionaries to discover the future. People say to create it. I’m like, “In my opinion, there's nothing new under the sun. It's already been created.”

To discover it, we have to look at what is going on and be very good researchers. I love that perspective of education in the industry. I also love that you talk about the board and the team. Everybody has to understand and be all in with the vision. Otherwise, the vision is, “I don't care if the Holy Spirit annoys you,” if everybody is not all in and understands it. Especially for the board to understand their role in making it happen is critical. Excellent insights.

Thank you. I have seen so many companies, particularly community banking. This is not a cut but CEOs have sat in the chair for 40, 30 or 20 years and it was banking as it was. Readers, I encourage you, if you are a leader, to think about your vision. Are you a visionary? Are you a strategist or into the day-to-day minutia? To one person, I encourage you to step away from the day-to-day management and be a true strategic visionary because that is the propellant for your organization to move forward.

Leaders on Leadership: Step away from the day to day management, and be a true strategic visionary because that is the propellant for your organization to move forward.

Be a true strategic visionary. True words were never spoken. Thank you. Dwight, your comments remind me of one of my favorite books, The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber, where we have these three hats. We have our entrepreneurial hat, manager hat and technician hat. The more you grow in the organization, you have to be wearing that E hat a lot more. Everybody is waiting for that. That's the spark that ignites everybody else. I love that you talk about stepping away from it and getting clear on enough with the day-to-day chatter and where we are going next.

I used to bring the team together and everybody wanted to talk about this little issue in branch A. I get all that but that's what the board and I are paying you to handle. Not that I wasn't aware of what was going on. I was aware of what was going on but you have to understand what you get into and what you let others get into. Delegation for me was very easy. It isn't easy for everybody. As leaders, I encourage you to not feel bad about delegating to the team. Stick to what you need to do for the growth of your company.

As leaders, don’t feel bad about delegating to the team and stick to what you need to do for the growth of your company.

Dwight, we have covered loneliness, weariness, abandonment and vision. Anything else that you would like to share with our leaders out there as far as your leadership journey?

Tracey, please cut me off because I could talk forever but it was interesting. When I was in high school, I was not a great student. I was probably a C-minus, D-plus student. A guidance counselor came to me and said, “Dwight, you will never amount to anything if you don't get your crap together.” That was a moving, emotional and motivating experience.

I then went to Central Penn and this is why I still love Central Penn College many years later. It was that experience, guidance and kicked in the butt. Central Penn made me what I am, both as a person and a leader. It's an emotional environment for me when I talked about this because without Central Penn College's leadership many years ago, I may not be sitting here talking to you and your audience but what they gave and taught me still lives. I love it. This college, with our leadership, has done some phenomenal things and I’m excited about it.

Dwight, there were two things I heard in that. Number one, when somebody looked at you in the eye and said, “You better straighten up and fly,” you were teachable. You talked about that when you were talking about weariness energy and enthusiasm. You were willing to accept instruction and say, “Let that be not shut you down or make you angry but do that.” I thank you for that.

The other thing is for our readers. Please check out Central Penn College. Anytime you buy anything from us, Central Penn College is one of the tremendous organizations that we support with the profits from you all. We love them. My father loved them. I’ve got family members that went there. Dwight, you’re doing incredible things. You have such a beautiful niche for students that are oriented towards that particular thing to give them like you because I wasn't the best student either. It’s the efficacy, the discipleship and the training that you can become anything you want to be. I love that for many years plus, you still live and breathe that.

Also, the stories that come out from some of our students. Please don't misunderstand. Other colleges are impactful to their students. Not every day but every week, I talk to former students and current students. It's so nice to hear the impact that this college and other colleges are having on our students. What they take out of that and what they do with their career is amazing.

You can bloom in it because it's a smaller school and you get that one-on-one instruction. South Central PA is so rich with businesses like small businesses, mid-size businesses and government. It's amazing. For the readers out there, not to get introduced to you but also if you have young people in your life or even middle-aged learners like us, check out Central Penn College and everything. Dwight, I want to thank you again so much for sharing your wisdom with me. I have learned so much. It's always an honor to get to hear the distilled wisdom and the applied wisdom from someone like you.

Tracey, thank you so much for having me. To your audience, thank you.

You're welcome. Dwight, how do people get ahold of you? Is it LinkedIn? Do you want them to reach out through the college if maybe they are interested in a tour or connecting with you about follow on discussions with your leadership and things you dealt with?

I am very active on LinkedIn. You can find me by Dwight Utz. They can contact me through the college at DwightUtz@CentralPenn.edu.

Dwight, thank you so much. To our tremendous readers out there, we want to thank you so much for reading. Keep on paying the price of leadership. If you like what you’ve read, please hit the subscribe button. If you would do us the honor of a five-star review, we would be so thankful. Be sure and go over to Tremendous Leadership. If you sign up, you get weeks of free eBooks. We have free online webinars and a host of tremendous books that can change your life. Also, if you want to publish with us, check it out too. Thank you all for being part of the Tremendous Tribe. Continue to pay the price of leadership. Take care everyone.

Important Links

• Central Penn College

• Charlie T. Jones Leadership Library

• DwightUtz@CentralPenn.edu

• A. Dwight Utz - LinkedIn

• The E-Myth Revisited

• Tremendous Leadership

About Dwight Utz

Dwight Utz serves as the Board Vice Chair for Central Penn College located in Summerdale, PA., which is also his alma mater. He is also a former President/CEO/Director of Peoples Bank in York, PA as well as the East Carolina Bank located in Engelhard, NC. Dwight has an amazing background in leading organizations to their full potential.

Episode 156 - Dr. Eric Luster - Leaders on Leadership

We can be so hard on ourselves that we forget how we’ve achieved some of our goals, even with limited resources. Our guest in this episode says that you just need to get over yourself! All that self-doubt is just an excuse. Whatever you want to be, go for it. Don't let what people say stop you from achieving your goal. Because only when you do something you truly love will you find true happiness. Join Dr. Tracey Jones as she talks to the CEO of Movement Interactive, Dr. Eric Luster, about his journey from being in the military to becoming a doctor. He also talks about his new book, Get Over Yourself: How To Move Without The Ball. Learn why you need to find little visions in your life so that you have something to work towards. Start getting over yourself today!

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Dr. Eric Luster - Leaders on Leadership

I am tremendously excited to introduce you to the one and only Dr. Eric Luster. Dr. Luster is the CEO and Founder of Movement Interactive Incorporated, an author, and a portfolio entrepreneur. After several years in senior roles at the Department of Defense as a Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical Specialist, and a Research Scientist and Engineer, he began his work in the design of person-centered healthcare technologies.

Thank you for your service, Eric. I love having other veterans on here, but also, he is the President and Chairman of the Board of Directors of Waymark Gardens Senior Living Community, where he spearheads the renovation and development of a smart facility designed to improve the safety, communication, and experience of valued residents. He is phenomenal. He has innovative technologies. Most of all, he released an incredible book, Get Over Yourself and we're going to hear from that at the end. Eric, thank you so much for honoring our guests with your time and wisdom.

Thank you and thank you so much for your service, Tracey.

It's a pleasure. Let's get right into it. I called you and we connected. I got to work with you on your book and you have the heart of a leader. As my father would say, "You have earned your stripes." One of my father's most renowned speeches was called The Price of Leadership. In that speech, he says that there are four things that you are going to have to be serving up or dealing with in order to truly be called a leader and not a leader in name only.

The first of those is loneliness. We all hear, "It's lonely at the top. Heavy is the head that wears the crown," but can you unpack what loneliness means for you throughout the different stages of your career and maybe some tips or techniques or tools for our readers about how you combated and deal with it?

That story for me starts off early on in my career. I was nineteen when I joined the United States Army. I enlisted as a Nuclear Biological Chemical Specialist and I was excited. I knew nothing about the Army and I arrived at Fort Huachuca in Arizona. I started to learn my job pretty quickly, but I was stationed in a tactical satellite battalion. I became interested in satellite communications.

I rose through the rank. I made Staff Sergeant in a few years. I started to experience that loneliness because I had built connections with other soldiers that were my age. I ranked up and I couldn't hang out with my friends. I was now in charge. That set me up for a lonely situation because now my peers were in their 30s and 40s. I had to dig deep and try to figure out how to overcome this feeling I had inside.

I turned to the community college where I started. I took a class and I wanted to figure out how was I going to lead the soldiers. Growing up early on, I'm a twin. I have a twin brother, Edward Luster, and he was always the twin that was charismatic and everyone wanted to be around him. He was a natural-born leader. When I started to look at leadership theory, I was trying to figure out how was I going to lead all of these soldiers without being a born leader. That led me to get inspired and continue training on how to be an effective leader and it came in handy. I had to get over a lot of self-doubts in order to get there.

In that course, do you remember anything in particular that taught you to ready you for that?

The key to becoming a great leader is to start giving.

It taught me the eight different types of leadership. I was interested in the Great Man Theory.

That's one of my favorites.

I taught everyone, “It's either you were born a leader or you weren't.” I got over the loneliness by looking at the different types of leadership. The key that I found was to start giving. That's what got me through. That's what helped me excel in the military. It transitioned right into my professional career.

I love the fact that when you dealt with this, you went to knowledge to solve the problem. For those of you that have been in the military, you understand what he is talking about. There's a term called fraternization where it's the separation of hierarchy. Sometimes it’s offices enlisted but there’s that distance, even in Corporate America, because you spent many years outside of the military or in the civilian workforce too, you have to watch that space and keep it professional. I think of the one term familiarity breeds contempt. Keep it open and accessible, but clearly defined boundaries. That's fascinating that you saw that at such a young age.

It was a real eye-opening task because a lot of the soldiers were younger, so we would go out on the weekends. I found myself being the person getting the call at 3:00 and 4:00 to pick someone up that got in trouble. Here I am, now a 20-year-old giving a 40-year-old lecture. It prepared me for a bigger role.

Do you deal with loneliness now in this stage of life?

Yes, in particular, going through the doctoral journey. It was almost like the military all over again. I had to learn to say no. That was tough for me because the key to my success was giving. I always say yes, but when you are tackling such a large task, you have to organize your time and make sure that you're working on the right things at the right time. When you start saying no, a lot of people start to turn away from you because they feel like they're not able to get what they need out of you.

Get Over Yourself: Being tasked to lead soldiers without being a born leader can give you the drive to be an effective leader. You need to get through a lot of self-doubts to get there.

You're in a different position, but also sometimes we need to sequester ourselves off. Having been on the doctoral journey, you have to say no to an awful lot and then people are like, "You're gone." I'm like, "I'm gone for a minimum of four years and then I'll reconvene." You have a valid point. I think of Jesus having to go off alone. Whether you meditate or you're mindful, loneliness is not always a bad thing because a lot of times we have to get ourselves alone to be intensely focused or to listen for what's next.

It comes from all angles. You may reference Jesus. His family didn't even accept Him and that's the toughest pill to swallow when you try to sit down with your closest relatives and explain the journey. I'm the first doctor in the family so it was something that we had not experienced before.

You talk about that in your book and we're going to talk about it at the end. I love how you said to explain the journey and not everybody's going to get it. They're not even going to be able to process it. It's going to bring up all kinds of emotions. You would think one would be happy, but everybody is in different spaces. For our leaders reading, even sometimes your closest family and friends don't always get it. That also gives a certain sense of loneliness, but we know what we got to do. Congratulations, Dr. Luster.

No bash on the family because through the Associate's Degree, Bachelor's Degree, and Master's Degree, they all understood that and were supportive, but tackling a doctoral degree was out of the wheelhouse of everyone, including myself. I had to get new mentors that explained to me what the process was like.

I have friends that now are starting up. I'm like, "You need to find other people that have already been through this journey to walk you through it, somebody that was there at that different level." I love new mentors. Eric expresses loneliness as a young enlisted man. You're going to always feel it. I love that you said that you have to pick up Sherpas like if you're hiking, different mountaineers, and experts that are like, "Now you're breathing this level of air so you need to wear these clothes and eat this food. You're on a whole different level."

That's important for a lot of our leaders reading that are in advanced degrees or higher certifications when you said, "Get those people at different levels to support you," because it is lonely. You got to find people that get that. We unpacked loneliness. The next thing that my father talked about was weariness. I always tell people, “Sometimes I go to bed at night. I worked so hard.” I feel like it's one of those nights where I'm like, "I went to bed more tired," but it was good because I knew what we were doing. There are other times when you're weary and it's debilitating.

My dad would always say, "Tracey, anytime you're leading, you're going to be around some people that do way more than the others and some that don't pull their weight.” It’s the 80/20 principle. How do you stay in top mental, physical, and financial form so you can continue leading all these organizations that you're involved in?

When all you think about is increasing your salary, you won't be able to find happiness.

I stay steadfast in my faith. When we talk about weariness, this was a thing that I had to address as I moved up the corporate ladder. After the military service, I was recruited out of the Army by Northrop Grumman Mission Systems. I got a lot of certifications and moved at the same rate when I got into corporate. In a few years, I was a Senior Systems Engineer for NETCOM, the inner pride of the Army network.

I set small goals to achieve. I thought the goal was to increase my salary because that's what you think about when you're in the military. What does an actual salary look like? There are so many benefits built into the military and you don't think about that. I rose up and made it to $52,000 a year, $87,000 a year, and then $137,000 a year. I thought I made it. I was happy, but I started to realize that I was not happy.

I started to feel this weirdness as I made my next choice because I almost wanted to make the choice that everyone else wanted for me. That was to keep making the most money my family had ever seen, but it was challenging. It wasn't exciting and I wasn't motivated anymore. The money was good. Everyone else affords to do things that they wanted to do, but it was no vision there. It lacked any goal and any ambition. I was stuck.

I love that you talked about weariness and equated that with not being happy. When I look at a lot of people, I'm like, "Is it a physical awareness or a psychological thing? You know that this isn't the best use of yourself." I know when I'm not dialed into that, I almost get fatigued. I'm like, "Something's out of whack. You're not being true to yourself." I worked for Northrop Grumman, too, in the Space Technology Division. I can remember getting job offers and being like, "I've never seen an offer like this before," but then you got to look at it and say, "Is this what gets me excited and vitalized to go to work?

The way you explained weariness came to me through my mentors. I would try to talk this thing through and say, "I'm going to leave this $137,000 on the table and pursue this graduate degree." They felt weary. Their feedback was, "You probably shouldn't do this. People aren't going to respect you the same. They're not going to treat you like you're the hero anymore." They passed that weariness onto me because that was something that they would never do. That made me a little curious. "Let's see if I could turn this around and prove I'm wrong."

I love that you said to pass on the weariness. We hear about that. Somebody would say, "Don't do that. Don't take that risk." They're projecting their risk aversion onto you, but I never thought about it like that. It's almost like they wanted to do it, but they wouldn't do it for whatever reason.

They pass it to you with a warning. "If you do this, you know what's going to happen."

Get Over Yourself: When tackling a large task, you must organize your time. You've got to make sure you're working on the right things at the right time. And that means learning how to say no.

When I got out of the military, like you, I went to high tech and went to Northop, the NSA, and a lot of different places. I had to finally look at it, too, because I would be like you. I'm working but I don't feel alive. Somebody said to me, "You're patting your resume and avoiding doing what you want to do by working in these sexy fields, making more money, but you're not doing what you want to do." I'm hiding behind my resume.

As that person said, "They're not going to respect you as much." I started thinking, "Look at all the things I've done. I've lived all over the world. I'm going to go back and run a small little family-run publishing company. How's that going to equate? We believe these things until we finally say, "Yes, but the discomfort is so much that we have to make the move." Tell me about that when you did that move and told them. Did you go back and discuss that with your wife or did you look at them and say, "Thank you, but I got my mind made up."

My wife has been along for the entire journey. We grew up in a small town in the Midwest. She went to a Catholic school and I went to a public school. I was homecoming king and she was my date. She's seen it all. She's seen the desires. I started to pursue a Doctoral Degree. When I got to Northrop Grumman, I thought I knew everything about the field of nuclear, biological, and chemical.

I got on a teleconference one day and the PhDs from George Mason University came on and let me know that I didn't know anything. That was the fuel to my fire. Those little things that you could feel in your stomach when it comes, I let those drive my decision. That's how I was able to overcome that weariness that others place on me because my fire burns larger than the weariness type of comment.

Loneliness, weariness, and the next thing my father talked about was abandonment. Typically, abandonment has this negative connotation, but in the price of leadership, you alluded to it with the PhD program. “Stop doing the things that are holding you back,” Dad told me one day. I'm like, "How did you get so successful?" He said, "Tracey, I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success." I'm like, "What?" He's like, "Every day you have to die to self.” It's biblical. How do you stay abandoned to all the other things? You are quite eclectic, the homecoming king, multitasked, and you're truly gifted. How do you stay hyper-focused on what's next at this time?

It's a lot of self-realization. One of the comments you made to me was, "I'm excited about your book. I can't believe you set it this real." What I'm going to tell you is something that I had to deal with as far as abandoning. I'm a twin so from day one, I've always had someone to play with and talk to. Fast forward to nineteen years old and getting married. My twin brother felt abandoned and we grew up in a very rough neighborhood and so we developed a code. My mother would always instill in us, "You both leave the house. You both come home."

When we had my oldest son, I had the mentality of, "In this world, it’s me and my twin brother." He was back at home while I was in the Army and he had gotten into some altercation. I was describing to my wife what I was going to do to protect my brother. She looked at me with lonely eyes and said, "What are we going to do when you go and do that?" That's when I came face to face with abandonment.

People are always brought up one way and get locked into that way of living. You have to prepare for change.

I had to bottle that emotion of feeling like I abandoned my brother, but then I had to know that I had to be a father and a husband because I wasn't going to abandon my wife and my son. It's been a lot to deal with emotionally and to understand how it works. We're always brought up one way and we get locked in. What happens when you have to change?

I love that you brought up the emotional component of abandonment because it is tough. In Jim Collins’ Good to Great, sometimes we even have to abandon good things because now we have something great. You have the covenant of marriage and the blessing of a child. It doesn't get much better than that, yet you had the familial bonds and the safety issues. Abandonment in people is so hard. If it were easy, we'd be able to cross these thresholds so much easier, but I love that she said that to you in that simple way. I love it when people ask questions, instead of giving a response. She did that and your response to that was beautiful.

I always have a response, but that day I did not have a response. I was puzzled. I said, "I didn't think that far yet."

I'm so thankful you did and were authentic about that. We covered loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. The last one my dad talked about was a vision. You and I grew up in areas where stuff wasn't handed to us so we had to earn our way through. I consider myself very scrappy and pragmatic, with a blessing of a family and a faith.

When I hear of vision, I always thought, "That's not me. I'm a doer, but I'm not a visionary." My dad was like, "Tracey, vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it." It had this big esoteric thing, but also this practicality. Can you tell me how do you continue to hone your vision? You have lots of beautiful chapters in your life and you're in the 2nd quarter, maybe in the 3rd quarter, or right in between. Tell me how you keep crafting your vision moving forward.

It's always a work in progress. When I reflect, that's when I started to realize I'm a portfolio entrepreneur. I start with a small vision and piece it together. For example, during my freshman year in high school, I made the varsity football team. The marching band that year was scheduled to march at the Citrus Bowl. I saw myself marching at the Citrus Bowl, but I and my twin brother had to show up for football. I became the first player to play varsity football and switch to a uniform at halftime and do the halftime show.

I don't know how I was able to pull that off, but I did. It was through the little visions that I saw myself at the Citrus Bowl. Nothing was going to stop me. These visions turned into goals so I started to accomplish those goals. I can recall when I completed my Master's Degree and as I was sitting there and the workout harder. I said, "What's going on? I completed my Master's Degree. The work was supposed to get easier." I had realized that I stopped looking forward and had no more goals. I had to go back, meditate, and start to develop that vision for those goals would start to fall out.

Get Over Yourself: You need to have little visions in life because these visions will turn into goals. These goals will make you start to take action so you can accomplish them.

I love that you called it little visions. You said, "A vision is progressive." It's like decision-making. You make it, but you may need to tweak it or scrap it. Little visions, how perfect is that? It's not so intimidating as, "What is that BHAG, the Big Hair Audacious Goal?" I love those little visions concept.

I put a lot of thought into those little visions. When I started the doctoral journey, I prayed. I didn't pray that I finish my Doctorate Degree. That was not the vision. My vision was to start this process, keep the process going, and keep my family intact because the people that I surrounded myself with had horror stories. I was able to detect what the actual goal was. The goal was not to walk and ruin it. They say, "Dr. Luster, you can pray for that and will get that. You'll look around and your family's gone." I break those little visions down and tried to execute them. It took me almost eight years to finish that Doctorate Degree because of the journey that I was on, but I stood fast and prayed about it.

You have the most beautiful family to show it. I can't wait until people check out your book and your website. We talked about the price of leadership and you have paid it, and continue to pay it. You can look at it and say, "It was a sacrifice," but you're infinitely richer for it and we are, too. Is there anything else as far as leadership lessons you would like to share with our audience?

Yes. I have a term, "Don't forget your forklift." This was my big moment in the military. Here, I'm in my early twenties and the Operation Enduring Freedom is about to happen. My unit selects me as the Operations Sergeant. I have the honor of working with the Air Force and figuring out a plan to get $20 million worth of equipment and 40 personnel from Southern Arizona to Northern Africa.

I thought of everything and worked all of the hours. I had plans and everything figured out. We were successful. We were able to get to Africa. We took one aircraft, a C-5, which is unbelievable. It was a great experience, but when we got through the desert, we were able to drive the vehicles off the C-5. We had eleven pallets and I did not pack a forklift. Everyone looked at me and this is the most important part, I had to take responsibility right then and there. There was no one else and you couldn't point the finger.

Needless to say, I found an Air Force Airman and he was driving a forklift. He gave me an hour-long class driving a forklift and he said, "Here, you can use it as long as you want." I was able to complete the mission. Stories like that sit with me and it has driven me in leadership as I take on more challenges. I've created a culture within my companies where no one points a finger and everyone takes responsibility. Everything's going to go wrong. You're going to get the forklift, but what happens next? That's the key.

You talked about the military, too, with the learning. Do you go back then and do an after actions or a hotwash and say, "How do we make sure it doesn't happen again?"

Think of your life as a basketball game with the ultimate goal being to get to overtime.

We wanted an after-action review. That's something that I constantly do to this day. We continue to build and learn from experiences.

Don't forget your forklift. That's a good title for your next book. That's a great concept. I'm glad the Air Force was there to help you out.

They were excellent. That gentleman was complaining about them being deployed. I said, "How long have you been here?" He said, "Three months." I said, "You just got here." He said, "No."

Tell me about the technology that you have created. Tell our readers a little bit about that. They'd be fascinated by how you're employing that. I talked a little bit about your position. They'd love to know what you're doing in Phoenix.

As I started transitioning from the government contracting role, I found a problem and it was the burning thing in my stomach again. My oldest son was playing football. I had started to develop a sensor for detecting and reporting concussions. We developed a small compact sensor that detects up to 200 Gs of force.

It uses the same technology that we all use every day and we don't even know it. It's the same algorithm that deploys your Air-Vac. We were able to leverage that existing technology, put it in a small wearable device, and able to identify when someone had a head impact, and let them know the severity of that head impact. We were concerned about concussions and that's what I built a company around.

Get Over Yourself: How To Move Without The Ball

Tell people you are a newly published author. I love this book, Get Over Yourself. Can you tell our readers a little bit about that?

All the stories that I've shared have been sprinkled throughout the book. I developed a construct and I paralleled life with a basketball game. When Tracey mentions getting new mentors and things of that nature, I look at life as if you're the point guard of your basketball team. You have four other players at any given time. You have two coaches and a trainer on the sideline. That describes most people's lives as far as having those four people that they talk to and having some older adults mentor them.

When we look at it this way, I break life down into quarters. From 0 to 20 years old, that's the 1st quarter. From 20 to 40, that's the 2nd quarter, and then we have that half-time. When we get to the 40s, we start wondering if we're up by 20 or if we're down by 12. This is when you need to start taking an assessment and identify whether you're winning because the ultimate goal is to get to overtime.

This is where the next phase of what I've been doing as far as senior living communities. This has given me the most insight because when we go to overtime, we're talking about our 80s. We start to look at things in our 40s that will impact if we make it to overtime or not. For example, we can look at existing data or a ZIP code and I can tell you the median age of death in your ZIP code.

If you have a goal to make it to 80, but in your ZIP code, the average age of death is 65 then we have to make some changes. It's a lot of environmental factors that we're not thinking about. A lot of people are staying where they are because it's home and they have an attachment. Again, that goes to the vision. You have to create that vision. When you get that vision and that goal comes out that says, "I'm going to be comfortable when I'm 80, that's when we start to make better decisions."

Eric takes you through his life journey, but most of all, I love your book because you talk about, "If you don't have the resources, you can still move the ball." A lot of people think, "I don't have the right team, talent, or the ball's deflated or whatever," but you're very much in the book like, "Those are excuses. You can still find a way. You can figure it out." I can't say enough about the book. I love the book and I learned so much from the book. I hope all our readers out there get a copy of the book.

Throughout the journey, the original title of the book was, "How to Move Without the Ball?" I was sharing my journey on how to get there with limited resources and thinking outside of the box. As I went on and started to confront all of these situations, the term, "Get Over Yourself," slowly start to emerge. In one piece in the book, I talk about one of my early mentors. She met me in the fifth grade and had the courage of a tiger. She came in through all-Black very rundown neighborhood. She was my tutor. She was a 6-foot-tall White lady that came into this rough area and would come get us and take us to the university. That was a huge inspiration.

In fact, she attended my high school graduation, my Associate's Degree graduation, Bachelor's Degree, Master's Degree, and ultimately was there for my Doctor's Degree. Going through life, I told myself that Becky had the courage to come meet me where I'm at and that there is no way I don't have the courage to stand up and change careers because I wanted to make an impact. That was very inspirational. You'll get that piece in the book.

You get to see Becky in the book and all that stuff. Some of the dearest words that we can tell ourselves other than self-affirmation is, “Get over yourself.” I love where you landed on that. Eric, I want to thank you so much for sharing your time and wisdom with our readers and your last story about what somebody did for you and how you in life are now serving. I'm sure you have inspired all readers to have the courage and the fortitude to move forward.

Excellent. Thank you so much for this opportunity, Tracey. I appreciate it. Thank you for all the mentorship in the second quarter. Meeting you, I already knew that you were part of the team.

Eric and I met through somebody that I had met a few years ago. It's so beautiful when these networks come together. I got your back, brother. I'm on the tail end of the third quarter. I'll lead you little brother up until the next quarter, but I love what you're doing, Doctor, and you're speaking, teaching, and preaching. You and your family are a real blessing to me and to everybody else. Thank you again.

Thank you and thank you to your readers as well.

You're welcome. To our fans, we are so thankful that you tuned in for this. We hope you got a lot of great insights. Please reach out to Dr. Eric Luster, get a copy of his book, check out his website, and get connected with him. He's an incredible resource and he speaks too. He would be a wonderful asset to any speech that you have coming up. If you like what you read, please be sure and hit the subscribe button and we would be honored if you would give us a five-star review as well, wherever you tune in to this episode, Stitcher, Spotify, YouTube, Anchor, you name it. With that, we encourage you to keep on playing the price of leadership and thank you for being a part of our Tremendous Tribe. Have a beautiful rest of the day.

 Important Links

• Movement Interactive Incorporated

• Get Over Yourself

• Good to Great

• Eric Luster

• Stitcher – Tremendous Leadership Podcast

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• YouTube – Tremendous Leadership Podcast

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About Dr. Eric luster

Dr. Eric luster is the ceo & founder of movement interactive inc. , an author, and a portfolio entrepreneur. After 14 years in senior roles at the department of defense as a nuclear, biological, and chemical specialist and a research scientist and engineer, eric began his work in the design of person-centered healthcare technologies. In 2012, he invented hijiband, a device created to detect and report traumatic brain injury in athletics. His book, get over yourself, is out now.

Eric is the current president & chairman of the board of directors at waymark gardens senior living community where he spearheads the renovation and development of a smart facility designed to improve the safety, communication, and experience of valued residents. He also sits on the community advisory board for the center of innovation in healthy and resilient aging (cihra) at arizona state university, which focuses on advancing ttechnologies that combat disease and providing innovative and technology-driven solutions for seniors.

Erics innovative technology has been selected for showcase in the clinton global initiative for its social impact. In 2020, he was selected by the arizona republic as one of the top 40 entrepreneurs under 40.

Episode 155 - Sylvia K. Kalyebara - Leaders Of Leadership

Even as we’re progressing as a society, there are still societal stigmas that need to be broken. Our guest in this episode took leadership in fighting the stigma attached to people with disability. Sylvia K. Kalyebara is the founder of Stars Ministries Uganda, where she serves alongside families taking care of people with disabilities, especially children. Here, she sits down with Dr. Tracey Jones to share how she found her mission and started her ministry and how she continues to share the word of God to help show love and encouragement. Join Sylvia as she tells us the challenges she faced as a leader and how she deals with them and continues to inspire.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Sylvia K. Kalyebara - Leaders Of Leadership

I cannot be more excited because my guest is very special. This is her first-ever show. She's coming directly from you all the way from Uganda. She’s a beautiful sister in Christ that I met a few years ago because I was a cohort with her husband, Nicholas Kalyebara, at Lancaster Bible College in our doctoral program. They were out for where he got to walk the stage and a few years ago, I got to meet Nicholas's fabulous wife, Sylvia. Sylvia, welcome.

Thank you, Tracey.

Sylvia is a wife, a mother of three, and an unbelievable leader. She's also going to share with you about her Stars Ministry in Uganda, where she takes in and cares for disabled children. You're going to be so blessed by hearing what she has seen in her heart and is doing for that. Sylvia, it's great to see you again.

Thank you, Tracey. It's good to see you too.

Thank you, sister. Let's get right into it. The folks are anxious to learn about your perspective on leadership. My father gave a speech many decades ago called The Price of Leadership. We have it in a little booklet form if you want to check it out on our website, Tremendous Leadership. He said, "If you're going to be a leader, you're going to have to pay a price like anything in life."

The first price he said that you're going to have to encounter and pay as a leader is loneliness. We've all heard that it's lonely at the top. As with all leaders, even Jesus, the ultimate leader, encountered a season of loneliness. Can you unpack for us what loneliness looks like for you as a leader and maybe a time in your life where you encountered it and maybe some words of advisement for our leaders that are reading?

Thank you, Tracey. Loneliness in leadership. I have been serving the Stars for years now. It's a unique ministry. In our Ugandan context, there are no ministries that are for children who have disabilities, especially in the church. That in itself is so lonely because I don't have people that I would share the challenges with that I am finding in the community.

The people that I learned from are from the ministry in America. It's in a different context. The context here has its own challenges. We deal with things like stigma for children or even just the families that have people with disabilities, which causes loneliness. When you need to talk to someone, need to be encouraged, and let out what you are feeling in your heart at that moment, there is no one you can talk to. You feel no one is going to understand what you are going through. That's one of the moments of loneliness I go through as I lead a ministry for children with disabilities.

I love that you brought that up because, for the readers in countries where there are assets and resources, either through the government, church, or nonprofits, to help this, you truly encounter loneliness that is different. Sometimes we feel lonely because we're the only ones with this idea, but you are lonely in carrying out the work God has laid on your heart. I know you come to the states and gather support, but how else do you get through that time of loneliness?

In dealing with loneliness, use opportunities to talk to anyone that comes in contact with you.

I get through that time of loneliness through prayer and talking to my husband. I do talk to my husband quite a lot. I also use opportunities to talk to anyone that comes in contact with me. My staff will tell you that I talk about what I do quite often. My husband, at one time, mentioned, "Sometimes I also have things I need to tell you. You keep telling me about Stars Ministry all the time. I also need to be listened to because I am lonely. I need to hear what other people have to say. I need to hear their advice.” It just comes out. I keep talking about it to get out of it.

I love that you're saying that because for the other readers out there that may be in resource constraints area, this is not a dig or anything, but in Uganda, what it is with what you're doing and how you're the first at this? We think about children with disabilities and that's such a rich area in the United States where there are so many telethons, drives, ministries, and stuff like that. There is so much support. Can you set the context? You've told me about it and even I was like, "I did not realize that you were so alone in that thing for now." Everybody starts out alone, but you are a cutting edge and how you approach the whole care and ministry to disabled children.

I'm going to tell a story of how this ministry journey started. In 2008, I got an opportunity to be with my husband in the States while he was doing school. He was doing his Master's. He got his Billy Graham Scholarship in Wheaton, Illinois. While he was doing his Master’s, I joined a church, the Wheaton College Church. It had a ministry and the ministry is still there. They have a ministry for people with disabilities and that touched my heart.

I saw how we saved them, how we visited their homes, and how we sang and taught them the word of God. That didn’t leave me and it led me to think, “What is the church doing in Uganda? I have never seen children or even people being ministered to in such a way. Does that mean we don’t have people that have disabilities?”

When we came back to Uganda, that was one thing that was on my heart to do, to look out for them. When the time was right, I talked to my pastor. At first, there were some challenges of, “No, we can’t do this. This is very expensive,” but then God moved us to another community where the pastor of the church that we went to allowed me to start a ministry for people with disabilities.

How I started out is shade in the church congregation. In the congregation, we found that two people had children that had disabilities. Due to this stigma and the shame that is attached to having someone with a disability, people don't easily come out to say, "I have a child that needs special care." In our community, it's looked at as you are cursed or someone has bewitched you, or you are a wronged person. That's why you have such a child.

The families carry the shame of having a child with a disability. My goal was to reach out to these families and teach them the word of God. Show love, show encouragement, and get encouragement through the word of God because when I was in Wheaton, as we served the special needs children there, I got to know that having a disability is not a free ticket to heaven. We don't pity them or keep them away but bring them out. Share the word of God with them, and encourage them because the soul in them is there. It doesn't matter whether someone can't talk back to you. Inside of them is a soul that can be nurtured to grow, love God, and accept him.

Disability Ministry: Having a disability is not a free ticket to heaven. Don't pity them nor keep them away. But instead, bring them out and share the word of God with them.

When I came back, that was my desire. That's what I wanted to do. When I started to do it, I realized that the need was bigger than I thought because there are no places and schools that accept them. Most homes have no cars, so accessibility is very hard, especially for the parents that live in the slum areas. They have no access.

You can imagine a child that has cerebral palsy. They can't move, but they are alive. They are human beings. They need to live a life, but because of the need in the community and the shame around having a disabled child, they tend to hide out the children. They lock them in the house or tie them on a chair as other siblings go to school and the parents go to work until the family returns in the evening. That's when the child will have a meal and get cleaned up because they need to ease themselves as they sit there.

All that is the burden God put on my heart as I reached out to share the gospel, but I realized that the need was bigger. I ended up going into physiotherapy and speech therapy and having a place where we can meet and get all the needs met. The challenge is big here in Uganda. At the center where we are at, because we now have a center, we started out with two, but now we have 48 children that we serve, they are flourishing. They are enjoying themselves. Some are learning. Those who can are being taught how to walk. Those who need to learn self-care are being taught self-care. It's been a journey.

You went to the kids that were alone and ministered to their loneliness because they were the outcast. As you said, we're not talking anybody down. You do what you can do with the resources that you have. You saw that they were alone and then you came in. I love the loneliness aspect but the weariness. Here you are on the cutting edge. You're growing. You went from 2 to 48 and went to all these other schools. How do you deal with weariness? How do you stay at your top physical form? You want to help everybody, but we're physical beings.

For weariness, I get a day off. I now have a team of sixteen staff. Those ones help because we have divided the work and given people different assignments. I have an administrative assistant. That helps me to take a break and have time to reflect, pray, think and to rejuvenate. That gives me a time of rest. I also get out of weariness through prayer because sometimes it's overwhelming to see all these needs.

I get to a time of God of, "Why did you choose me to do this?" The need is big. I see the need and there are no resources enough to meet the need and it gets overwhelming. As you said, I get weary. Sometimes I talk to people, but sometimes it becomes a heavy burden on my hands. Still, I take it back to God in prayer and that's where I find refreshment.

I love that you have a Sabbath and a team there to serve you because we can't do it on our own. The next thing my dad talked about was abandonment. That is staying focused. I know when you talked to me, when you started this ministry, all these people started coming to you saying, "Can you do this and that?" How do you stay hyperfocused, Sylvia?

I have gone through moments where people come to me and they're like, "Can you turn this into where you take children and never get to go back to their homes, keep them here, and have a boarding section for the children?" That's not what God has placed on my heart to do. I tell them because we have that as our strategy that children will be taken care of during the day and taken back home in the evenings. We are not wavering from that. Sometimes when I think of ideas from what our vision is, that's when I share them with the board. We have a board and it keeps me in check.

Because of the stigma attached to people with disability, they are afraid to come out.

That's what the board is supposed to do.

The temptation sometimes goes, "So and so has a very good idea. Can we do this so that we meet this need?" They are like, "No, stay focused. This is what we set out to do." The board helps me stay in check.

You've got abandonment. For leaders, people always come when you start being successful. Other people are going to say, "Can you do this and that?" I love it that you said, "We got to stay focused on what God has placed on our heart." Otherwise, good is the enemy of great and the devil loves to see a distracted because then you come off.

The last point my father talked about was vision. My dad came from some difficult situations, but he said, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it.” You epitomize that. You saw the need and then you're doing it. You have your board and your wonderful staff. You have people. God is blessing you, but how do you craft your vision for what's next for Stars?

Still through prayer. I pray. I believe that Stars Ministry is not about me as Sylvia. It's God’s. He is using me as a vessel. When I was starting out, God spoke to me. I was at my kitchen sink washing dishes and I had these thoughts of, "Start Stars Ministry for children with disabilities." All of a sudden, I started weeping and God was putting it on my heart. "You are a vessel." I knew that it was related to serving the Stars.

Over the years, I can testify that I am a vessel that God is using to reach all the children that we are reaching. I always take it back to him because there are times when I have desires. For example, now I would love us to have a place for the Stars of our own. That's the vision that I have that we can have a place that will model children that have disabilities in a community. I don't have the resources, but the Bible tells us he owns the cattle and 1,000 hills. He has the gold and silver that we need. He's the anchor. He is where I run to. I have seen God work.

I love that you tied the vision to being a vessel. That's that servant heart and that servant leadership. If we could do it on our own, then what do we need God for? What a blessing. Tell me a little bit about your vision for where you would like the school to be. Tell the readers what you shared with us, where you are right now, and what your hope, Lord willing, and as he provides, what your vision is for the footprint of the ministry going forward.

We are in Kampala, the capital city of Uganda, in a suburb called Luzira. We are renting premises that can take care of about 50 children. That's where we are at right now. We are renting, but my desire is that we would have a property where we will put structures that will solve the needs, a place where the children are accepted, loved, cared for, and valued so that the community will see these too are people.

Disability Ministry: We have to stay focused on what God has placed in our hearts.

Over the years, I have seen some change and acceptance. As we go on, many are getting to trust the ministry with their children, but also the community looks and says, "That's the place where they accept children that have special needs." My desire is that we would get a place where we will not be kicked out.

That's the thing about owning your space. We deal with that too in the states when you're a renter. I have links to Sylvia's Ministry for the readers, so you can see the beautiful pictures of what she's doing there and how you can be a part of her vision going forward. Sylvia, we covered the loneliness, the weariness, the abandonment, and the vision. You certainly have an incredible perspective on that with your Stars Ministry in Uganda and how the Lord is taking you through this. Anything else for our readers regarding leadership that you would like to share with them?

I would like to encourage the readers to join hands with us to see the work of God move, to serve the Stars with us, and to show the love of Christ to these children. We serve children with disabilities and I can't do it alone, but together we can do this. We can show Christ's love to the community. Maybe we can even multiply to enlarge and meet other needs in other communities. I would like to encourage the people that follow this show to join in. They can encourage us. They can support us financially. We are registered as a C3 nonprofit with Faith and Learning International.

I can attest that your donations go through this, just as it would in the States and you can get all the documentation for that. Sylvia, I so appreciate your perspective on leadership. I appreciate you with the bold ass because that's what we tell leaders. You are out there. You're here with other people, the people that you meet, the books that you read, and that's what you're here.

Thank you for letting people know how they can partner with you as part of this. I'm tremendously excited. I knew Nicholas and what you were doing, but until you came and spent time in my home, I had no idea the difference you were making and how big the challenge was. I look at your website in those pictures and it makes my heart sing. I thank you so much. Don't listen to what's going on in the world. Remember, unbelievable leaders like Sylvia are out there making a difference, looking for other leaders like you to partner with. Sylvia, thank you again for sharing this.

Thank you, Tracey, for the opportunity and the love.

We'll see you soon or you get back over here. Hopefully, we'll be getting back over there. We saw you, but what a blessing. To our readers out there, we want to thank you so much for your support of the show. If you liked what you read, please be sure and hit the subscribe button and share it with somebody else who could read some wonderful, uplifting leadership on what it takes to pay the price of leadership. We're all in this together and we're here to support one another.

Also, if you do us the honor of a five-star rating, we’d appreciate that. Come on over to Tremendous Leadership and sign up for two free weeks of eBooks and get some unbelievable reading material for you to listen to and get connected with Sylvia too, so you can stay informed on her ministry and what's going on. To our Tremendous Leadership tribe out there, we couldn't do it without you. Have a tremendous rest of the day.

 Important Links

• Stars Ministry 

• The Price of Leadership

• https://www.Facebook.com/STARSUg/

About Sylvia K. Kalyebara

Sylvia K. Kalyebara is a wife and mother of three children. She is also the founder of Stars Ministries in Uganda where she serves alongside families taking care of people with disabilities, especially children. She has seen her work blossom from taking care of 2 children to 48 and currently has a staff of 16. She formed this ministry after witnessing the work of Christian men and women at Wheaton College, where her husband was a student. Sylvia is called to help others see how God loves them.

Episode 154 - Allen Joines - Leaders on Leadership

If there is one thing constant in this ever-changing world, it is that nothing is impossible with God. Today’s guest, Allen Joines, is proof of that. Despite life’s obstacles, he reinvented himself from being a dock worker and janitor to a Pastor and successful business owner in the telecommunication industry. All of his success, he owes to God’s grace. He joins Dr. Tracey Jones to share with us his journey and the price of leadership he had to pay. Allen gives insights about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. At the end of the day, he reminds us that no matter how tough being a leader is, our faith in God and our purpose will always be greater. And that God will see us through it all.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Allen Joines - Leaders on Leadership

I am so excited because my very special guest is Allen Joines. Allen has been a lifelong learner and follower of Christ for years. Despite life obstacles, he reinvented himself by God's grace from dock worker and janitor to regional HR Manager of a Fortune 500 company to a Pastor. He relocated a small congregation to a 46-acre campus to a successful business owner in the telecommunication industry. For many years, Allen has been a high-energy communicator sharing his belief that anything is possible with God. He lives in South Central PA with Diane, his wife of 43 years. They enjoy time with their 6 grown children and 11 grandchildren. Allen, it's such an honor to have you here.

Thank you so much, Tracey. It's a pleasure and a joy to be here.

For our readers out there, you've read Allen's background and he's going to unpack the Price of Leadership for us. Allen, you've been in the Jones family for many decades. Could you share a little bit about your interaction with my father?

It goes back a long way. First of all, my love for books brought him into the executive bookstore. I was discipling men at the time, so I was buying books for other men, and we were talking about books. That's how I started. Walking into that bookstore, you didn't walk out with one book. You walked out armfuls. Over the years, Tremendous and I developed a friendship there because of the love for books and reading. That's how it started.

It became my monthly journey to the bookstore to get my shot of enthusiasm and encouragement along the way. That's how my relationship with your dad grew. It was an amazing journey. I loved your father. He made you think. I love the way he phrased things and the way he presented things. You walked out of there encouraged and thinking differently than when you walked in. It was such a blessing to know your dad.

It's wonderful still to have you as a part of the Tremendous Family. We're going to talk a little bit about all the wonderful things God has going on in your life, but first of all, let us unpack the Price of Leadership, a speech my father gave years ago that still continues to be one of his most requested topics because everybody bemoans, "Where are the good leaders?" There's a price to pay. That could be why most people shy away from leadership, but let's unpack that.

The first thing he talks about in the Price of Leadership, he has that little booklet is he talks about loneliness. We've all heard that it's lonely at the top or heavy as the head that wears the crown, but can you talk to me about what loneliness means for you as a leader and perhaps some insights for our readers out there, if they might be in a season of loneliness?

The big thing about loneliness is realizing that you're never alone. You think you are, but you're not.

The big thing about loneliness is realizing that you're never alone. You think you are, but you're not. Our faith and our purpose must be greater than our feelings. With the different work I've done and jobs I've had, our emotions sometimes get in the way. We think we're alone, but we're not. I often asked God to help me. "Give me enough courage to keep moving but not too much to make me proud."

He's good at that. Sometimes we need that sense of downtime or loneliness in our life, so we can quiet ourselves and be in a place where he would want to take us or where he's leading us. The other thing about loneliness was different times in my experience, and it's in my book, whenever he would bring special people into my life to help me during a certain time to remind me, "You're not alone."

Elijah thought he was all by himself and God said, "What are you babying about?" There are 7,000 that had to bow a knee. You're not alone, but he didn't know and realized that. That's the one thing that we need. In our work world or spiritual journey, that is a key lesson to learn and realize that even though we feel lonely, we're not alone. That has helped me on my journey through whatever I've been journeying through.

We are never alone. People say, "Where is God?" No, it's where you are. He's right there. Stop pushing him away. We have the ultimate advocate and the Holy Spirit. Stop thumb sucking, as dad would say.

It's like you're here standing out in the rain getting rained on and the whole time there's an umbrella you can move under. Too many times, we allow our emotions to dictate circumstances.

I love that when you say faith and purpose have to be greater than feeling. “As a man thinketh, the mind of Christ,” Romans 12:2. Feelings follow the mind. Feelings long. Feelings fade. It's like happiness. It's such a weird thing, but joy is real. Thoughts are real. Feelings respond and manifest. I'm glad you said that because a lot of it is mental. You're going to want to thumb suck and feel like you're a little martyr. Nobody gets you.

Charles would say that too, that he'd never say to Gloria anything going wrong because she'd say, "I told you so. Why do you think you can start your own business?" He just suffered in silence. There's an element of truth to that. The other thing he would say is, "You want me to tell me your problems? I'm going to tell you my problems. You opened your big fat mouth." I truly appreciate that. Now, let me ask you this. When did you meet the Lord?

Faith In God: “Don't you know that if the pastor leaves, the problem stays, but if the pastor stays, the problems leave?”

I was fifteen years old through a bus ministry of a church. This is all in my book. My dad was on probation and my grandfather was in the Federal Penitentiary for bootlegging, and my mother was involved in sugar-gathering, the sugar for the alcohol making, and all of that. They got caught and that whole operation got shut down. What happened was my mom remarried. This is amazing. She married a guy twenty years older than her who was a World War II Vet. I was raised by World War II Vet. We talk about Memorial Day happening.

Life wasn't easy. One of the things was working on the farm and you had a choice. You either did a chore Sunday morning or you went to church. I had a problem, a dilemma. I hated going to church and I hated working. Sometimes I ended up being forced to go to church. These religious people around us, I didn't want anything to do with that. Finally, they moved again, and lo and behold, I'm fifteen years old, and a neighbor asked, "Would you guys like to go to Sunday school?" I can't get away from these religious fanatics. They're everywhere.

It was amazing because I had moved from one school district to another. For fifteen years, I went by my stepfather's last name illegally. They never had my name changed. They said, "We're going to call you this." When I went to the new school and they saw my birth certificate, I had to legally get adopted or go by my real name.

For the first fifteen years, I went by completely different names. When I went to the new school at age fifteen, my name changed. They forced me to go by Joines, which was on my birth certificate. It was simply three months later when their life literally changed. It was amazing because my friends from the old school would talk to friends in the new school and they say, "This guy, you'll have fun with him. He likes to party, and this and that."

The people were like, "There's nobody here like that. There's this guy only wants to talk about Jesus," it's completely different. My name and life changed, and all that changed at age fifteen. My changes, by the way, I was not perfect. I was a mess for years. I had to work through so many different things, but God was gracious, and that's how that started.

I asked that because you right away went to it. The numero uno point means you had to have been walking with the Lord for quite some time.

It's amazing. My book came out in my 50th anniversary month. I got saved in March of 1972 and my book came out in March of 2022. It took 50 years to live and a couple of years to write.

Our faith and our purpose must be greater than our feelings.

The next thing after loneliness, he talked about his weariness. There's a good weariness like, "Job well done." There's a weariness that's draining. He would always say, "My problem isn't motivating myself. It's keeping other people from de-motivating me." If you're a leader, you're always going to have some people that aren't pulling their weight. Yet we have to stay at the top. We have to take care of ourselves. How do you deal with weariness? What would you recommend to our readers?

A couple of things over the years with weariness, I learned to pace myself. It's a marathon. It's not a sprint. You've got to pace yourself. I have to say the biggest failure of my biggest weakness has been in trying to rush ahead and do so many things. I could burn myself out, but you have to pace yourself and make sure your pace is good. Take regular breaks. Make sure that you recharge yourself. That's why we've been given the blessing of sleep. Sleep is to recharge your body and mind and all that. Not only with sleep, I think we need time off and vacations. Not a whole life of vacations, but a time to recharge. That helps.

The other thing about weariness, and this is two things, and it goes to my relationship with Charlie, is reading encouraging books because there are other people who have gone before you, and being around encouraging people. Find a handful of people that give you energy and will take energy from you. That type of thing is so important.

One of the biggest lessons I remember about your dad was when I was in the ministry. I went through a very hard time where there were some things that needed to be dealt with in the church, and I dealt with them, then it seemed like everything backfired on me. I went from this huge church, then it shrank. We were looking at buying land. It looked like all was lost. My board was divided. Everybody was telling me, "You shouldn't be a pastor. You need to move on. Forget it."

I contemplated. Maybe I need to give up. It says, "Don't be weary. Keep going because of the rewards at the end." Somehow, that information got leaked to your dad. Somebody told him. I didn't tell him. I remember walking into the store to get some books. He walked right up to me and he had a very firm and stern look on his face. He said, "What's this I hear you're leaving ministry? What's this I hear you're quitting?"

Your dad was a big guy. He grabbed me. He's known for his hugs, but that day, it wasn't a hug. It was a shakeup. He grabbed me by the shoulders and shook me like I was a little kid. I'm a grown man. He shook me like a little kid. He said, "Don't you know if the pastor leaves, the problem stays, but if the pastor stays, the problems leave? What are you doing?"

What your dad did there shook me to the core. When we talk about weariness, every now and then we need a wake-up call. That was my wake-up call and it's your dad. What happened was I didn't quit. I went back. That moment that happened, I was on a little mini-sabbatical trying to figure out what it was going to do. I went back and the church got healed. The land was bought. A new building was built. Now, there's a beautiful church on a 46-acre campus that is making an impact in the community. They designated 20 acres for a community park to outreach to the community, and the vision continues that we started there.

Faith In God: When it comes to weariness, too many of us give up too soon. We give up right before we get to the finish line. We give up right before it's going to happen.

Here's the thing. I almost gave up. It was that encouragement that your dad gave during that moment of weariness that inspired me to keep going, and I did. The rest is history. That's the thing with weariness. The Bible says, "Don't be weary because in due time, you'll reap the reward.” When it comes to weariness, many of us give up too soon. We give up right before we get to the finish line. We give up right before it's going to happen. To me, that was the big thing of weariness. Take moments of rest, but also be around people that can inspire and encourage you. Keep going and don't quit.

That reminds me of Russell Conwell's Acres of Diamonds. You could have gone to find another church, not realizing that the diamonds are right underneath your feet. I've been told that for a leader, the difference between a pat on the back and a kick in the rump is 18 inches. That did that. I would get calls from people. When I first came back and they were like, "Tracey, I came in there and your father grabbed and screamed at me. I started crying." I thought, "Here we go," because I have known that for a long time. They're like, "That was the best thing that ever happened to me," and I'm like, "Okay."

It's so beautiful that you share that because people are going to drag us down. Remember new levels, new devils. The devil is going to hit you hard. This is the other thing he'd say to me every time I'd be like, "This is it. I'm tired of dealing with these betrayers and naysayers. Is it anything worse than what Jesus went through?" He's like, "What is your problem?" You don't get to complain about it until you're the one that suffered. It was maddening, but he lived that. He knew what people would do to the people that tried the hardest. It is a sad thing, but again, look at Jesus. We don't worry about that. We thank God that he's gracious and go right back in there.

Along with that weariness, the other thing I have to give credit to is my stepfather, who I did not get along with. For 15 or 16 years of my life, it was nothing but a head-butting, struggles and all that, but the one thing I learned from my stepdad was this. Sometimes you've got to do things, whether you feel like it or not. You've got to have a bulldog tenacity.

As a young child, he made me do things work ethic-wise that I hated doing, but he forced me to do them. Looking back, it was the best character-developing thing that he could have done for me because what I went through in the work world and church world, all deals with that tenacity, not giving up and doing things whether you feel like it or not. Successful people will do things where they feel like it or not. Successful people go with the flow, but that's an important part there too.

A new common denominator of success. Between failure and success is that success has made a habit. Your habits have nothing to do with your feelings. Habits are, whether you feel it or not, you go do it. I'm glad that we can learn from people. Tenacity and grit, I watched Charles do that, and you too. You'll at least get an A on your report card if you don't quit. I'm like, "I'll take an A. That's fine." I totally appreciate your take on the weariness and what that took. I love that. Pastors leaves, problem stays. Pastor stays, problem leaves. That is a leader for anything.

That's a quote from your dad.

Take moments of rest, but also be around people that can inspire and encourage you. Keep going, and don't quit. 

I never heard him say that and I love it. That's beautiful. We talked about loneliness and weariness. Next, let's talk about abandonment. A lot of people think that abandonment is a negative thing, but in the context of leadership and for my father, that was focus. That was pruning away what you want and like to think about, like quitting, the thumb sucking, and how to mean everybody is to you in favor of what you want and need to think about. Can you talk to me about how you get all the distractions, all the enemies have created a way, and stay focused on what's next?

Here's the thing. When it comes to abandonment, we all have to be abandoned to something. We can't do everything. Sometimes the world tries to sell it. "You can have it all." If you try to have it all, it's going to kill you because you can't possibly do it. You've got to decide what you're going to be abandoned to. To me, that was a thing of abandonment. When I was working up in the work world, I was abandoned to a certain job, or in the ministry, I was abandoned to ministry. This one was what my focus going to be. In fact, when you look at scripture, as the Apostle Paul was abandoned to Christ and he said, "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain," that was his focus.

I'll be honest with you in this day and age, we have too many focuses. We try to do too much. I'm guilty of that. You ask my wife and my children, they will you. We have to determine what's the main thing. What do we abandon to, is it really our time and our energy? When we're young and we go through the young stage where we're thinking about money, making money, surviving, and all that, and as we get older, we shift from wanting to make money to wanting to make an impact. Making an impact is so much more powerful than making the dollar.

Your dad was an example of that too. He impacted a lot of people. I thought about my interaction with him. Like the books, it was not about the money or the book sales. It was always about impacting people. Knowing that if he gave them a book or encouraged them, their life would be changed forever. This whole thing about abandonment is what we abandon or what we are doing and making this decision.

Here's the hard thing. I've reinvented myself three times now. Reinventing myself from a janitor work, in HR, in a corporate Fortune 500 company, then you go from that to a twenty-year ministry, then to a business owner in telecommunication, it's completely different fields altogether. The thing that I learned was that it was a stress point because I had to come to a point where I had to realize I had to give up one thing to gain another thing, that I could not keep both.

Too many times, we try to do that. We try to keep both things going and we end up stretching ourselves and getting to the point where we're going to stop, but we have to be willing to give up one thing to gain another. Even Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters." You're going to love one and hate the other. You're going to hold one and despise the other. That's the same way with our life purpose and things in our life. This might sound counterintuitive, but we can't have it all. We got to decide what we want and be abandoned to that. That's when the blessings will flow.

That is a lie that the world tells us. It is counter-cultural and it will burn you out. It will be disappointingly satisfying like sin. It’s like after they ate the apple, “This isn't so good anymore.” The other thing is we're all collectively all different parts of the body. When the nose tries to do what the stomach or the toe does, it's a no. Stay in your lane of anointing.

Faith In God: God gives us grace in the transition, but then it gets to the point where that transition now must happen.

Focus is not meant to be plural. You said, focus. Focus, one. There should be no such word as foci. I love that you talked about that too many focuses. We do have to be abandoned to something. That's what Good to Great, Jim Collins is all about. You can be good at a lot of things, but what is the one thing, that one thing.

I have five different careers like you. Charles would always say to me, "Tracey, you're leaving that," and I'm like, "Yes, dad. The calling is different.” Whenever I was in, I was all-in, but that made it clear, unlike dad, who built on what he did, he had a major life career change when he left Mutual New York and other insurances agency. He had three pivots. For some people, God has you only doing three layovers before you get to your final destination. For other people like us, it's 4, 5, or 6. We're just getting going.

Anybody out there reading, I like to encourage them. If you're restless in your spirit and you're struggling with what you're doing now, it's not a momentary thing but an ongoing thing. It could very well be you're being called in a completely different direction. When I made my transition from the corporate world to the ministry world, one thing I had done was, when I took over the church, I was part-time for a few years. God gave me grace for that time, but guess what happened at the end was that grace was removed. I had to make a decision.

I'm not going to kill myself trying to do a couple of things or am I going to let go of one or the other? That's what happens. God gives us grace in the transition, but then it gets to the point where that transition now must happen. It seems like he removes his hands. It makes it hard. You're in a corner. You now have to make a choice. You can't keep struggling with that.

I like that you called that out because I'm calling from and calling to. You'll always have a calling. God will call your heart to one thing that's different than quitting. It's important for the readers to know that quitting because you're irritated or having a spirit of discontent is a beautiful thing. It’s like loneliness, weariness, and abandonment. There's good and bad.

There's quitting because you're mad, but then there's also God will say, "You're done here and move on." You got to be discerning with the Holy Spirit. That's what I would tell my dad, "I'm not quitting this job, dad. It's very clear that this is the calling and it's over and it's time to move on to something else." As long as you know that and you're not quitting because you're mad or you're running away.

I appreciate you clarifying that because that is what we do. Sometimes people around you will misunderstand that.

If you see a problem, that means you must be the solution.

Only you know in your heart and God, and be honest with it. It may appear, but you’ve got to do what you’ve got and that's what leaders do. They listen to the calling. Loneliness, weirdness, abandonment, and the last of all is vision. I would hear all of these wonderful people growing up talking about vision. It always intimidated me because that's not my gig. That's not my gift. Dad explained vision as seeing what needs to be done and then doing it. It's so pragmatic. Many people say, "That needs to be done," and you're talking. It's a Post-It note. It's visual. Can you share with me what vision means to you and how you get clarity on your calling or anointing?

First of all, as a pastor, I'd have people come up to me all the time and say, "Pastor, you'll be doing this in the church. You need to do it." "No, I don't want to do it, but I know what needs to get done." If you see it, then that means God's calling you to do it.

You could've saved me a lot of heartaches, but that's okay. If you see it, that means God is calling you to do it.

Some people can see all kinds of problems, "God must have called you to do that." If you see a problem, that means you must be the solution. Too many people want to pass that solution off to somebody else. Here's the thing, faith and fear are exactly the same things. People often miss this. Fear is false evidence appearing real. You're thinking of a negative outcome. You're thinking of something bad happening. Where faith is fully anticipated, it will happen. They're both the same thing.

It's your response to it.

It's amazing, 365 times in the Bible, it says, "Fear not." One for each day of the year. Also, faith is believing. This is in the book. When I was eight years old, we lived on the farm and I was given the job of hoeing field corn. I was not using a tractor. “Here's a hoe. I'm going to work when I come that come home. I expect this field to be hoed.” While I'm out there in the hot sun hoeing this field corn, I started to dream.

I still remember it as if it was yesterday when I dreamed it. I dreamed that someday I would be in an air-conditioned corner office. I would be a personnel manager hiring and firing people. I'm eight years old and I had this vision. I'll be talking to people. Another vision I had was out of the woods. I stood there and I read about Abraham Lincoln and how he worked out in the woods and all that. Imagine talking to people and encouraging them.

Discovering the Good Father: How God's Love and Grace Transformed a Broken Life

Here's the thing. I was eight years old when I had that vision. When I was 30 years old, I was promoted to a personnel training supervisor in the trucking company where I was involved in all those things. It grew from there, but it started as a seed. God puts the seed in each of our hearts when we're young of something that he wants to fulfill in us. We have to believe it. Dream it and believe it, and hang on to that, and now there were a lot of curves and changes.

One pastor that mentored me said, "The Mississippi River runs north a lot of places. If you look at it, it runs north someplace. It doesn't all flow south. Sometimes you might think you're going in the wrong direction, but you might be flowing in the right direction because of everything you're learning and developing." All the different experiences I had all consummated into those different opportunities I was given in life. That happens to us too. Faith and fear are the same things. It's our response to the circumstance.

Even if you're going, you may be flowing. There are going to be some backtracks at times that life, even with the vision. Just stay on target.

You might think you're going in the wrong direction, but you might be floating in the right direction.

You should pay to read this. There's so much wisdom. We talked about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, and vision. Anything else while we have our readers that you would like to share about leadership that we have not touched on yet?

Here's a living token and this was a note of encouragement that your dad had sent me in one season of life. I'll never forget that. I'll never forget the friendship I had with him and the impact he made on my life. It still does. This is so true. This is a famous quote. I think you all know that. You're the same person today as you were yesterday, except for two things. The books you read and the people you meet. That is so true.

When I look back, I am where I am now of the full investment of thousands of people into my life. None of us are self-made. All of us have been invested in by different people. It'll start with our mom and our dad changing our diapers. It goes from there to reading and writing. It goes from there learning different skills. The value of relationships, you can even learn from people and situations that you don't like because there's something there to be learned.

Each of us is a combination of all the influences that come into our life.

Learning from all of those becomes like a funnel into our life. Each of us is a combination of all the influences that come into our life. Along with that are also the books that we read. I had an aunt who had the old encyclopedia, the Britannica. We'd go to visit her and I was always fascinated by all these books that she had. I made it my goal that I was going to read through the pretend Britannica encyclopedia set. Every time I went there, I started with A and then with B. I don't know how far I got, but every time I get it, I go through that.

Later when I came to faith, I started building a library and started reading books. I realized people from previous generations were impacting me. They were helping me think differently. I was one of the things that made your dad so unique. He knew that. That's why he promoted books so much. That's why he did book publishing and selling and all that because he knew the impact of that. I've literally read thousands of thousands over the years, but also the people that I met that made that. To me, when it comes to leadership, those two things can help take you to another whole level if you're going to apply them.

You're living proof of that. It's so interesting that you were like a little sponge, even early on. Clearly, God has his hand on you. He has it on all of us. You let him work his way. You haven’t talked a lot about your book. Can we talk a little bit about that? Where can people pick up your book?

They can pick that up at Amazon. Go to Amazon and type my name or type in Discovering the Good Father, and you can get a copy of that there. It's a combination of a little bit of my bio, but also some life lessons from business and my spiritual walk, and all that, and all the different things I've learned on that journey. I originally wrote it for my children and my grandchildren because I wanted to leave a legacy. I didn't want them to lose all my stories of the amazing things that the good father has done for me.

Why it's called Discovering the Good Father is I was raised by three fathers. Robert Kiyosaki has Rich Dad, Poor Dad. While I have a good father, I was raised by my stepfather. I was abandoned in my younger years by my biological father, but I had a Heavenly Father who was there the whole time. It took me a while to discover all that, but now that I've walked for years. I look back like, "It's amazing."

We're never alone. We might think we are, but we're never alone. He said, "I'll never leave you nor forsake you," but there are times when you feel like you're alone because it's a test of faith. Do you believe it? The thing is, we're never alone and we need to work through that. I gave the synopsis of the book.

What's the best way for people to get in touch with you?

They can be in touch with me in a couple of different ways. I have LifeMessages.net. You can email me at Allen@LifeMessages.net or AllenJoines.org or DiscoveringTheGoodFather.org. Any of those will get you to me. I'd love to hear from people. If I can be an encouragement to you or your group, I'd love to do that. I've been communicating for years and I would do seminars and conferences and stuff like that. Also, many years of being a pastor. If I could be of any service encouragement, please let me know. The book came out a couple of months ago, and I'm already getting amazing reports of people who are encouraged and impacted. That blesses my heart.

To our readers out there, please make sure and connect with Allen. Get his book and give him a review on Amazon. We love that. Let him know how that's changing your life. Allen, it has been such a joy chatting with you, learning from you, sharing with you, getting caught up. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with our readers.

Thank you so much, Tracey, for this opportunity, and hope you have a blessed day.

To our readers out there, thank you so much for being a part of the show. If you like what you read, please be sure to hit the subscribe button. Sign up at Tremendous Leadership. We've got a few weeks of free eBooks, and you can pick up a copy of the Price of Leadership. Also, we'd love the honor of a five-star review. Drop us a note or share it with somebody that you think may be encouraged with paying the Price of Leadership. Thank you so much. Keep up the tremendous work and have a tremendous rest of the day.

 Important Links

• Allen Joines

• Price of Leadership

• Acres of Diamonds

• Good to Great

• Discovering the Good Father

• Rich Dad, Poor Dad

• LifeMessages.net

• Allen@LifeMessages.net

• DiscoveringTheGoodFather.org

About Allen Joines

Allen Joines has been a lifelong learner and follower of Christ for fifty years. Despite life obstacles, he reinvented himself by God's grace from dockworker and janitor to regional HR manager of a Fortune 500 company, to a pastor who relocated a small congregation to a forty-six-acre campus, to a successful business owner in the telecommunication industry.