There are a number of elements every leader faces throughout their careers. Such things oftentimes allow us to reach excellence and have a successful outcome at the end of the day. In today’s episode, Dr. Tracey Jones has a very candid yet enlightening conversation with Carol Green about the roadblocks she encountered during her career as a female leader, how she overcame them, the risks she had to take, and more!
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Carol Green - Leaders On Leadership
Today, my guest is Carol green. And because of the risks that Carol Green has taken in her life, she has transformed herself from a shy young girl into an incredibly successful leader and entrepreneur. I look forward to hearing all about that. And before we get started, I want to tell you how I connected with Carol. Eli Marcus, who's a dear friend of mine, he's a C-Suite member, a longtime friend of the family, I was talking to him about a banking venture that I am involved in which Lord willing will come to fruition. And I was just running some things by him. And I needed an advocate or a sounding board, we talk a lot about that about some issues coming up and that I would like to talk to them with an expert. So of course, Eli connected me with Carol. And I immediately called her and she has been just a tremendous mentor and advocate to me on all things. And I am so excited for our listeners to hear Carol's take on the price of leadership. So Carol, welcome.
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. It's good to see you and to have the opportunity to connect with other people who are leaders, and have had significant accomplishments.
So Carol, I know you gave me a really brief bio, you are so humble. But can you tell me for the listeners, just a couple sentences, basically, about your vocational background? Particularly I love the story early on, about when you went in for something from somebody. And because your spouse, you couldn't get it? Could you unpack your professional background for our listeners, so they know the context about all your experiences?
Well, speaking to that I had tried to get credit in my name. And when I went to apply for what was then a Bank of America that preceded visa, I was turned down without my husband's signature. And the same thing repeated itself when I went for a card from Montgomery Ward. And again, when we went for a mortgage, they would not because I was 30 years old and potentially pregnant, which materialized I had a third child after I was 30. They would not count my income while I was running a corporation.
I was making a six figure salary. I had over 400 employees at that time. And I would was not allowed to get credit in my own name. So I ended up buying a call together some women bankers that I knew and started talking to them about a woman's bank. But as far as my own situation, I married very young, I married at 19. I had two and a half years of college at that time. And I was determined to eventually get my degree which I did in economics, I got my degree which was high priority to everything I did was swimming upstream with two children going to school part time, and really trying to I was highly motivated to do certain things. And I just fought the system if you will, and accomplished those things.
Excellent. And can you tell me you talked about the banking industry, but you've also had some major stents and other organizations? Can you share them with our listeners?
I lost 60 pounds and I started lecturing that was a key which you mentioned earlier, I had been very shy and lacked self confidence. And one of my very strong messages is that you can overcome that, that you can overcome that fear of standing in front of a group.
The first time I had to stand in front of the group and speak was an absolute shock. I was co-chairman of a project and the woman who was chairman became ill and I had to get up there and talk about the project. So I was very frightened. I did it. I found out I survived, which was something I wasn't sure was really going to happen. And I became kind of an evangelist for Weight Watchers after I had lost the weight. And in order to train to be a group leader, I was living in a small town in Delaware, I would have to drive 15 miles over a single lane road, in order to go for training.
That was very frightening to me, this was at night driving on a single lane road. And I did it. And I stood up, I went to the training, and I became not only a group leader, a very successful one, where the directors of Weight Watchers in Delaware approached me to become their partner and apply for a franchise in Virginia, I ultimately was able to convince my husband, I always wanted to live out west, that was my dream.
And I convinced my husband that we would go after a Weight Watchers franchise in Colorado. And when I applied it was already taken, I decided to go ahead with the training. And like someone was looking down on me the people who had Colorado change their mind and were to the state of Washington. While I was in training. And I was really blessed. I was able to get that franchise and eventually Wyoming. Other states, wow, was was a radical change. But I did learn as you mentioned that risk is the key to success.
“I went to the training, and I became not only a group leader, a very successful one, where the directors of Weight Watchers in Delaware approached me to become their partner and apply for a franchise in Virginia”.
All right, so we're gonna start unpacking that, thank you so much, Carol, for letting our listeners know kind of your background, so they'll understand the context of your comments about leadership. And my father spoke extensively on leadership, that's what he was all about. It was motivation and leadership that really go hand in hand. And you talked about that earlier that there were certain things that really motivated you and that you were going to overcome.
So he had a speech called the price of leadership. And in it, he said, there's four things that if you're really a leader, you're gonna have to be dealing with throughout your entire leadership journey. And the first was loneliness. And we've all heard that it's lonely at the top. But you know, there is a certain element of loneliness that accompanies leadership. So can you unpack what loneliness as a leader means to you, how you deal with it, and perhaps a time in your career, where you went through that season, and how it worked out?
There's two aspects to it. One is I was so busy between three children and running a company that I didn't have too much exposure to loneliness. Where I did experience loneliness is when I started being appointed to boards of directors. There were very few women at that time, and I was often the only woman or one of two in that position. I was on any number of boards. I sat on the greater Denver Chamber of Commerce for the state of Colorado Chamber of Commerce board, and others. I was the vice chairman of the Colorado Small Business Council. Where I found companionship is there is an organization called the International Woman's forum. And it's by invitation and you have to be the top of your profession.
And there, I was 1977 I joined in Colorado, and associated with other women, significant women, not only in Colorado, but as I went to national meetings, I met Christie Hefner, I met Madeleine Albright, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sandra Day O'Connor, so very powerful women. And that changed, but the loneliness of sitting one woman on the board, that was a very important thing. And I want to give an example by meeting, for instance, at the Denver Chamber of Commerce, the discussion of comparative words came up with a very important, very important subject for women at that time, whether they were getting sufficient pay and they wanted it mandated. So I said to them at the Chamber, I want to talk to them because I'm the only woman here today, but the fact is, I don't support it.
I think women should like others be subject to the marketplace in terms of salaries. But because I'm here alone, I want to discuss and tell you what other women think, and support it. And so that was very risky. One of the things when you sit alone as the only woman, which thank goodness is not the case anymore in most situations. When you sit alone, and you say you start to talk about something that's deeply unpopular among the attendees, you're taking a risk even in doing that.
But I felt that it was something that was important that I do that. The very reason I was so knowledgeable on the subject, is the very next night after that meeting, I was a speaker for the National Association of Women Business Awards. And I was in a debate where I was against comparative words against the speaker who was in favor. So I was very knowledgeable, and felt that I had a duty to speak out on the subject.
I love it. Well, and Carol, thank you so much for that. Because a lot of times we think, Oh, deeply unpopular, when we're supposed to be on a board where we're, we may be diverse, but we're united and what we're trying to do. So I've heard people call it sticking my neck out, you know, ending my career, given up my seat. But that courage, that risk. I think a lot of people recognize the risk, but you had the courage. I also love the fact that you were able to articulate the pros and cons of the discussion. And I love it, because it's the false consensus, people assume looking at me that I'm going to think a certain way. And I'm like, if I can't understand both sides equally, well, we can't really have an educated discussion, a unique discussion about the bus response. So I really appreciate the fact that you were able to, what is it? One of my favorite quotes is: “the test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two conflicting ideas in your mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function”.
And I think that's so excellent, because I'm always like, look, I know this may be contentious, we have to look at this. Let's just look at the facts. So thank you for that risk is always around. I think everybody senses it, the fight or flight, but the courage to sit there and say, but I'm going to speak about it. And so thank you for that. You also hit on the whole mentorship or mastermind, which every one of our people have said, you know, you can't there's certain people in the organization you can't go to for support by virtue of the fact you're the leader. But there are other people out there and the same thing. And it is imperative that we blend and bond with them as a resource and as an advocate, to strengthen ourselves and to curtail that loneliness.
I agree. I'm a team player. And I sit on, like I said, different chamber boards. I was the first woman on the Boy Scout executive committee, back when the Boy Scouts were not bad guys or dealing with the kinds of issues that they've been dealing with more recently. So I do believe in networking. And there, especially for women, it's with not just women, but with men, too. They organized a woman's Chamber of Commerce in Denver, and I did not join, I felt if you're not in the game, you're not there at all that you had to be Chamber of Commerce, whatever it might be, you had to be involved with the men because they at that time, particularly held the power.
And are going to be advocates and resources. I have people go especially with my background like yours and predominantly male fields. And they're like, Well, how'd you do it? And I'm like, well, just like with women. For every idiot I encountered, there was 100 great ones. It's life. Even now it's 2022 when it's so equitable. There's still idiots on both sides. It's not gender specific. So I tell people, I just don't listen to the haters and I find the good ones and I'm not going to label somebody because of what one person says that's just that's not healthy. That's not realistic.
Okay, so loneliness. Thank you for unpacking that. Next is weariness. And, you know, my dad was always talking about especially when you're a leader, you're gonna find people that do way more than they're asked to do, and a lot that find that they're not doing the bare minimum of what they're supposed to do. So here you are juggling everything. spouse, wife, mother of two, I never had to put that on my plate. I can't even imagine how people do that. But how do you combat weariness so you can stay in top form for all the people that are looking to you?
Great question. I think I was gifted with a very high level of energy. Because I don't know how I did it. I sat on boards, I was organizing things. I had a fabulous staff, I have to say that and I owe them a great deal in terms of their support. But I, I'm not sure how I had the energy to do all of the things that I did. But I was very focused, I didn't need too much sleep, luckily, and but at that time in my life, and I managed to juggle is the word there were so many my secretary used to say, you change hats with every phone call. So I was juggling a lot of different things. And fortunately, I have the ability to remember detail even to this day. And that helped me a great deal. I could switch my brain like it was segmented. And I could switch from one cycle to the other to be able to function and handle the various things I was doing. Maybe at times I didn't handle it as well as I could have. But I did get a lot of kudos. So I was doing most of it effectively.
I love that you said that initially, because I always said, like my dad. And some of this is just intrinsic coding, or chemicals in the brain. There's a big part of that that goes into your motivation. I tell people like my dad, I think I got like quadruple helping have like dopamine and endorphins. And I thank God for that. Because I'm kind of Teflon I don't worry about stuff like some people process it. And I have to realize that, that I had the blessing. Now God makes me work in other areas. But in one thing, I stay pretty much up and ready for a high level of energy. But let's talk because you like me four years ago, I said, my health is out of control. And I was in my mid 50s. And I like you lost a significant amount of weight. So tell me about when that health change happened, and how that affected you with your physical stamina?
Well, about eight years ago, I started to get very, very tired. And my doctor thought that I had asthma, which it turned out I have asthma, but I didn't know it. And it's a mild case. What was going on was my heart. And one day I had that pain that men describe often. Doesn't always happen to women, women, but the feeling of an elephant on my chest. And this is a lesson I really want to convey. I wasn't smart enough to call an ambulance.
My husband drove me to the emergency room. This to me was very important. When I got there, they asked me if I ever have diabetes? No. Did I ever smoke? No. They looked at me, my body looked healthy. They checked me out and sent me home. Well, three days later, not only did I have this excruciating pain in my chest, I had pain in my left arm. And again, my husband drove me back. So one lesson, Ladies, Gentlemen, call an ambulance. That was kind of stupid on my part, but lucky I got there and the difference is if you call an ambulance, they take you right in, whereas I was sitting in the waiting room.
When I got taken in they then gave me an MRI and the MRI showed I was blocked 50 60 80 and 90%. And they set me up for stent surgery. When I woke up they said I would absolutely needed a bypass. So nothing happened with the stent. I had the bypass, I had a quadruple bypass. I had a tough time recovering. It actually took months but the other lesson is I had a wonderful cardiologist and he said make sure you go to all of the rehab.
The government gives you a put if you have a quadruple bypass 12 weeks of rehab. And I went three times a week my husband drove me over and till I was able to drive myself and I followed the doctor's orders to a tee. By Christmas time I had the surgery August 4, and by Christmas, I felt more like myself, I finished rehab. And I started an exercise program with a trainer. And to this day, I still get up six o'clock in the morning, and I get on the treadmill. And I do other exercise. So I still stick with it. But I do say, make sure you take an ambulance if you're feeling that.
I wrote a letter to the president of the hospital in the head of the emergency room. And I said I was felt I was treated differently as a woman. Because you looked at me, and I looked healthy. And I had nothing. I didn't have any of the conditions that generally lead up to a heart attack. You sent me home and I could have died. It was really important. And I didn't hear from the President of the hospital but I heard from the head of the emergency room called me and said no, no, we treat women the same. I said no, no, I think you don't. Because I think it would be unlikely if a man came in with chest pains, that he would have been just getting some superficial questions and sent home. But it all worked out. And so I conveyed that message strongly so that women are advocates for themselves should they get a heart attack.
Well, you said the word advocate and you have to advocate for your health. And the first thing is to you knew when I got through my health change in mind wasn't my heart, although I do have that checked out because of the stress that I deal with. But mine was just exhaustion. My dad had chronic fatigue about mid 50s. And so mine was my, my adrenal gland was shot like 0%. So it's really important. Ladies don't don't just keep pushing through it. There's a kind of weariness where you just feel like you're not focused. But then there's a physical awareness where your body is telling you that something's wrong. So you gotta go in and advocate and thank you for sharing that.
Yes, I can't speak highly enough of or with more emphasis that you do have to advocate for yourself. To me, it was shocking afterwards, that I could have died in those three days. Because I've heard of other people who have been hospitalized and sent home and they have died and I'm lucky it was a tough recovery. I will say that but I am now an example for people I get up I exercise. I watch what I eat. People say oh well you were with Weight Watchers. I said no, I have to eat differently Now. By the way, in my case, my decision I gave up all meat, chicken, any kind of meat. I eat mostly vegetarian, but I do eat. I will eat egg beaters, and cottage cheese and yogurt. But otherwise I eat simply with lots of vegetables and lots of food. And think that that has helped my recovery.
“I can't speak highly enough of or with more emphasis that you do have to advocate for yourself”.
Absolutely. And when you get your heart checked out now the blockages have not come back to your heart?
My cardiologist says I'm the shining pupil.
The body is an unbelievable creation. And when you treat it right, you know, I was talking trash in and trash out. And you know, when you really look at what do we need to be processing? And what did people used to do in the old days and eat? Your body is incredibly resilient if you treat it right and do good, lifelong, healthy and just like you even though that happened four years ago, every day, it's now part of my lifestyle. It's not a thing. It's the way I live now. And I want to finish the race strong.
You eat to live, not live to eat. And if you can change your brain to think that way. I just eat that way. That's all it is. And people say “Oh, you're so disciplined”. Or they suggest I take a break. I have something I said you know, I don't even want it.
That's so far beyond. Yeah, that's like telling an alcoholic well, just a drink. No, no, that's right. I don't want to go back there ever. Well, can you just have a piece of cake for your birthday? Because I've been off sugar for four years and I can actually think and function without sugar. Sugar is the devil to me. And people like we'll just have a cake just just a piece and I'm like, never.
I don't even want it. I don't know why you lose your taste for it. I think yogurt with blueberries is like a gift. It's a treat. My brain as you may know other people may not think that way. Oh, happy camper.
Right, I have no desire but chips. Yeah, now we're talking. Okay care well thank you for that. So the weariness, loneliness weariness. Now the next thing my father talked about was a term called abandonment. And that typically has a very negative connotation, abandoning your responsibility abandoning a pet. But in his case, abandonment means abandoning what you like and want to think about and do in favor of what you ought and need to do. So for him, it was a real hyper focus.
And I remember him telling me as a young girl looking at him going, someday, I just want to grow up and be successful and help people like you. And he would tell me, Tracy, I do more in a day to contribute to my failure than my success. And I'm like, but how can that be? And he's like, because there's still so many things that I do that aren't value added. So he really embedded this hyper focus, this abandonment is pruning, we're in the spring season, and so you got to cut away the dead diseased result dying. As you're putting more on your plate, you got to look at what comes out. Can you talk to me about abandonment? and Carol, I love the fact when you said every phone call you shift hats, and that's almost a form of abandonment. Now I'm in this lane. Now I'm in this lane. Now I'm in this lane. But that requires incredible focus on your part. Can you give us some tips on how we can become incredibly focused like you?
Well, part of the focus were my three children and my husband were married a long, long time. We married when we were 19 and 20. So we're a team. And my children, of course, now they're adults. So I but I'm still involved. My one son was on his own successful career and came home when he was 30 with lupus and he's now had it for so many years, and it's really affected him with great difficulty. The good news for people who are diagnosed now is that there are medications that are designed specifically for lupus. And that did not exist when he was diagnosed. The thing in abandonment, I came to focus that tie into the woman's bank, that I looked at the women who marched for the vote, were moving women forward.
And I decided that they laid the foundation. And I was just another step in that battle to gain equality. And so I was very focused on the things that I did always had to do with the advancement of women in a constructive way. I didn't march, I didn't make loud speeches. I worked in fact, extensively with men, I was I had a number of men who became my mentor powerful men, I met to the Boy Scout board and to Chamber of Commerce.
And so I had opportunities that other women didn't have. So as I said, how I handled myself on the board of directors, always constructively, always making sure that I had, that I was sufficiently assertive that if somebody was trying to men typically, and I don't think this may be true anymore, but at that time that was documented, that men interrupted women all the time.
And so what I would do, somehow I developed this, I'd raise my hand if someone interrupted me, you know, kind of putting a stop. And I'd say let me finish nicely. I always spoke with respect. And I was successful. I held my own, but I was not aggressive. And so however you want to interpret that, so I didn't have abandonment in that sense. I had great support from women and for men. So I'm pleased to say that.
I love the fact that you made sure that there was what we call a value congruence. As long as something was moving women forward. You were all in with that. So that could help you be very focused on what you needed to do versus getting pulled to the side to be in somebody else's cause or somebody else's message or somebody else's values. Even somebody else's fight. So I love the fact that you were just very clear on what resonated with you, and what intrinsically brought out the best in you and chose how you would present topics.I love it, Carol.
All great insights, okay, loneliness, weariness abandonment. And the last thing he talked about was vision. And his idea of vision was just seeing what needs to be done and doing it. You know, Carol, there's so many people out there that talk about, oh, the world, the world, this should end it's like, you know, but what are you going to do? What are you going to do? What are you going to make happen, and you can have all the vision in the world. But if you don't do something about it, it's just kind of like a post it note or a dream board. So how do you craft your vision, even now, you're still involved in so many things? How do you continue to identify what needs to be done and set out to make it happen?
Well, this morning the first thing I did was send emails to my two senators, and congressmen about how I felt about what went on in the Valley, and some concrete suggestions as to what I think can move us forward. I still do and don't, you know, hypothesize. But as far as I think one of the strengths I had on boards of directors, in terms of vision, and I always had vision because I was building new things. But one of the things that my particular strengths was, when the discussion was going on, I could envision the impact of a recommendation going forward.
So someone came up with a grandiose idea, I might say, well, if you implement that, the costs are going to escalate. And this is what you might want to do, etcetera, etcetera. So that's what I would often think that on a board of directors, that more than anything was my board, my strength. As far as vision, I often tell other people they have vision more than myself, but I could build on it, that I could, I could take their vision, not steal it. Because as I said, I'm a team player. I would listen to someone's vision, and I supported. And I would get in there and try to build on it and implement it and bring it to action.
“As far as vision, I often tell other people they have vision more than myself, but I could build on it, that I could, I could take their vision, not steal it”.
You know, I've never heard you say, say it like that. It's almost this future aspect. And I think a lot of leaders out there, they're leaders, and they're running their own businesses, because they have this kind of critical thinking skills, we call it your ability to argue against your future self. In other words, whatever contingency or decision you play out in your mind, you argue against, okay, if it goes perfectly well, if it goes catastrophically bad, and somewhere in between. So I love that you said envision the impact of a recommendation going forward. I mean, that's critical for your board. And I like you, I'm not a visionary.
But as an integrator, and as an operations person, I love it that you said you would take somebody's vision and build on that and integrate it. And that's what leaders of all stages really need. Because otherwise, if you don't have your disciples or you don't have your core group, you can't do it on your own. We're not meant to do it on our own. So I love that you called yourself a vision builder.
When I thought of the sense of vision Well, I'm not always the visionary. But I when I see it, like I did with the gun control situation, how it could be implemented. And just trying to look at the steps that can be taken to make something come to fruition.
Because otherwise nothing ever gets done. So I love it. Okay, Carol, so we did talk about loneliness, weariness, abandonment, vision, and then a time with our listeners, is there anything else? While we're talking all things, leadership that we have not touched on that you'd like to share with the group?
If there's anything it was getting my college degree I came, my father was in his 40s when I was born, so in his 60s, when I became a teenager, and would have been in a position to go to college, and he felt that I should just go to work, and not go to college, and that I would get married anyway, and it wouldn't make any difference. And so over the years, when my children were in kindergarten, they were in preschool. When they were in elementary school, I took classes continuously.
And eventually, not only did I graduate. I went across the country, I finished my college in Colorado, and I was invited to be on the Board of Trustees of the college. So sometimes just being strong in your vision, that was a vision for me, a personal vision, I felt I should get a college degree. And my father wanted me to study once I went to college, he thought I should study education, that I could be a teacher. And if I had children, I would be home with my children. But I was, I took one semester of education, I love my own kids. So I'm not against children. But I didn't want to be in a classroom with children, I still remember reading whiteheads Aims of Education, and saying, No way.
For me, economics was always the most interesting. And even to this day, I read the report of The Economist even though it doesn't impact my life, but they are, that is what is of significant interest to me. And so I would say, identify what's important and really focus like your father, focus, so you can move forward and achieve. And even if it's step by step, I tell people, I said, it took me so many years to get a college degree. But when I got it, it meant so much.
Well, I just love that you really keep threading back to your authentic self, your authentic voice, your authentic gifting your authentic interests, and everything along the way, where people said no, or whatever, or it was risky, or whatever you just said, but I gotta be me. You know what I'm saying?. And so I love the fact that you just brought that because oftentimes, somebody just needs that one person to say, You know what, this, but this is what's really good for me, because otherwise, we just, especially as women, sometimes we want to be people pleasers. And, well, I'll take that job, or I'll study that. And I just love that. You did it in such a way of grace and humility, while understanding yourself and look at you. And when you do that, look at the life you live, and the lives you touch and continue to touch, Carol,.
I should add the book that's being written about the founding of the woman's bank and gender. The bank was founded in a unique manner, a woman named Grace Williams, who is a journalist from New Jersey has been writing the book and it should come out probably at the end of this year or the beginning of next year. She has come down here to Florida to interview me and out to Denver to interview other people. That is going to be, I think, a great interest to many people.
When that comes out. We're going to have you back on to talk about it. And Lord willing, I'll have some bank news that we could be talking about, too. So Carol, just thank you so much. What is the best way for people to connect with you?
Probably my email. I don't have a website anymore. cbgreen100@aol.com
We'll put that in the show notes too. And Carol, just thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure and honor getting to know you. Thank you for taking the time to share with our listeners about what it takes to pay the price of leadership. I know I'm gonna get a lot of comments on this one because you really gave us some wonderful, wonderful wisdom.
Thank you so much. It's a joy to work with you and enjoy the opportunity.
Absolutely. And to our listeners out there. Thank you so much for tuning in to the leaders on leadership podcast. Be sure if you like what you heard to hit the subscribe button. Give us the honor of a five star review and share and comment. We answer all of our comments. Get in touch with Carol. Be sure and tune in for our next great episode. And keep on paying the price of leadership we're so thankful for you. Have a tremendous rest of the day.
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ABOUT CAROL GREEN:
Because of the risks Carol Green has taken in her life, she transformed herself from a shy, insecure woman into an inspirational leader.