Not everyone will support you on your journey towards success. Therefore, you should learn how to filter the people within your circles and only work with like-minded people. Exploring this complex topic with Dr. Tracey Jones is author and one of the top 1% attorneys in the nation, Rebecca Zung. They talk about the importance of aligning with the universe, as well as your core values and personal goals, instead of simply agreeing to what others think of you. Rebecca also underlines how you build the image of yourself for other people to see and why you should be responsible for your own reputation.
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Episode 127 - Rebecca Zung - Leaders On Leadership
I am excited because my guest is Rebecca Zung. She is one of the top 1% of attorneys in the nation, having been recognized in the US News & World Report as a Best Lawyer in America. Her journey wasn't always easy. Married at nineteen for the first time, she had three children by the age of 23, and then was a divorced single mom when she decided to go back to law school. She went from being a single mom, college dropout to becoming one of the most powerful lawyers in the country at the helm of a multimillion dollar practice. She is now committed to sharing her secrets and empowering others to live their lives at an optimal level of success personally and professionally. Rebecca, I'm excited to have you on our show.
Thank you so much. I'm excited to talk with you.
For the readers out there, I crossed paths with Rebecca through Mark Victor Hansen. You all know that I interviewed him. We talked a lot about advocates. Mark is one of those guys that he not only asked but he gives and gives. Rebecca and I chatted and like that, we're going to be working on some other things too. Rebecca, I'm excited to talk to you.
Thank you so much. Yes, I agree. Mark is probably one of the biggest givers that I have seriously ever met in my life. Every day, his generosity blows me away. I mentioned that here because what a tremendous inspiration and leader he is in that way.
Talk about the real deal and giving back. He and my dad were dear friends. They shared the stage. Even when I interviewed him, I didn't realize how far back it went and how many gazillions of books they sold together and the rapport. I knew of it, but not that much. My father wrote a speech many years ago. He was all about leadership and it was called The Price of Leadership. For those of us reading, if you go over to our website, we have a free download of this. My father said that leadership is a beautiful thing but it's also a difficult thing. We all have the privilege of leading at something. He clearly carved out four things that you're going to encounter as a leader. He was very pragmatic. Rebecca, I would love to get your insights. You've had quite a storied career and like they say, I’ve never seen a great person with an easy pass. I'd love to hear your perspective on these different topics and how this pertains to you and your leadership journey.
I graduated second in my class from high school. My dad was a physician. He had gone to Columbia. He was from China. He had not had an easy road but he definitely was very much all about success and education. I remember one time when I was young saying, “Maybe I'll be a nurse.” I remember him saying, “Why would you do that if you're smart enough to be a doctor?” In his mind, it was always achieved the highest that you possibly can. My mother is German. She's still alive. I always say that I have no fun genes whatsoever with Chinese and German. Getting married at nineteen and dropping out of college was my version of rebellion.
It was like, “I need to stop the pressure here.” I thought in my nineteen-year-old wisdom, “What a better way than to get married” and have three kids by the time I'm 23. It was at that point that I thought I'm sitting there in this marriage, which was not the greatest. It’s not that he was a bad guy and I'm certainly not bad-mouthing him, but you can't make a life choice at nineteen most of the time. I decided at that point I needed to do something with myself. I finished college with my kids and that was not easy. They were 5, 4 and 2 when I finished my Bachelor's Degree. The marriage wasn't going well. Law school for me was survival.
It was put food on the kids' table and put a roof over our heads. Honestly, that was what I was thinking at the time. I definitely had naysayers. I remember one person said to me, “Why are you going to go to law school? There are way too many lawyers. I know somebody who is bagging groceries. They graduated from law school and they're bagging groceries.” I remember thinking at the time, “Somebody is going to get a job. Everybody's not going to end up bagging groceries. Why wouldn't it be me?” Many times, it's like that crab thing when the crab gets to the top, the other crabs want to pull them back into the pot. They don't want to see you doing better or excelling or getting past where they think they are or where they think they can go. They don't realize that they also have the ability to do whatever they want to do.
For me, it's always been, “I'm going to do it. I'm going to find a way. I'm going to make it happen for myself.” Does that mean that I’ve never had doubts? I have certainly had doubts many times along my path. When I opened my law practice and I signed a lease for an office space and I hired a paralegal, I thought, “I hope I bring enough business in to make all this happen and it's not going to be financial ruin for my family.” I was worried about that. I remember my best friend. She said to me, “Your problem is going to be too many clients, not not enough.” I was like, “I hope she's right.” Of course, I had doubts. I’ve always had naysayers because whenever you're trying to do something that's out there where you have success or you are achieving, there's going to be somebody out there who has something to say about it. “Who does she think she is? She thinks she's better than everybody else,” and whatever. That's their own story. That's them.
Like-Minded People: Whenever you're trying to do something where you have success, there will always be somebody who has something to say about it.
The first thing my dad did say was loneliness. I hear you talking about threads up and everything. I love it when people are like, “Declare what you're going to do,” and so people do. All of a sudden, they're like, “Where are all the accolades?” I'm like, “Accolades are not guaranteed.” My dad would talk about, “It's lonely at the top.” A lot of times, when you're following your vision, it sounds like sometimes your vision is the only thing that you're hearing. Typically, we have 1 or 2 people at least, but it sounds like there were times where you had to be very clear and heeding your own voice because there weren't a lot of supporting voices around.
Yes, that's definitely true. That means that maybe those aren't the right people. One of my favorite saying is, “Stop trying to make not your people, your people.” I remember hearing Will Smith one time. He went on Instagram Live or something and he started talking. He was like, “Are you with people who are fanning your flames are dousing your fire? If they're not fanning your flames, then they are not your people.” Find people who are going to help you and support you. If you ask God, ask the universe, ask whoever it is that you talk do out in the ether to bring it to you, then it will come.
These people will show up, but it does get lonely sometimes, especially as an entrepreneur. If you're a solopreneur and you are the only one who is running your company, your empire or whatever it is that you're running, it can be lonely for sure. There are times that you feel like the world is against you and you're the only one. Sometimes you find yourself having your own little pity party like, “Why is it me? It’s not fair. What did I ever do to them? I’ve always been so nice to them. How come they don't like me?” You go, “How is this serving me? How is this serving others? This isn’t going anywhere.”
I remember having this moment where I was being attacked by a narcissist, which is I talk about negotiating with narcissists. That's what I teach people how to do. The reason why I started doing this is because I had been preyed upon by a narcissist in a business situation. I remember having my a-ha moment. I was on the top of a mountain in Maui. I remember thinking, “If I'm obsessing about and ruminating over this situation, I'm not in creation mode. I'm not doing anything that serves my soul. I'm not doing anything that's helping other people.” You got to be in one or the other. You can't be in both. That's what continued to drive me.
Since then, I’ve created a YouTube channel which I recommend. If anybody wants tips on negotiating with narcissists in any setting business or personal, come check me out there. I started that and my channel went from 0 to 100,000 subscribers and 6 million views in ten months because I was finally in my place serving my soul. Since then, I’ve met incredible people who are like-minded like you, for example, and many others who are my people and it's beautiful. Once you make that decision to not serve the darkness and be in victim mode, it becomes the antithesis of being lonely. I feel like I'm surrounded by incredible people now.
You’re talking about you've had this incredible growth and you've come through a lot of challenges and you're resilient. The next price my father talked about is weariness. Can you speak to that? It is tiring. Sometimes we are the only ones and sometimes even when we have the right people, but there are all different kinds of weariness. Not all are bad, but could you share with us how you stay replenished? How do you deal with weariness?
That's a great question because I didn't do that well for a long time. I had this vision to create the number one family law practice in Southwest Florida. I was so focused on getting there that when I got there, the realization of it was that I had a massive number of employees. I had all these lawyers, paralegals, and people working for me. I had 50-plus cases, all multimillion-dollar clients who were extremely demanding. I was trying to be a mother to my four children, be a wife to my husband. I wasn't doing any of them very well. I had gotten to a point where I was so overwhelmed and tired. I would go to the bathroom at my office and I would walk out, and the paralegals were lined up with their legal pads, waiting for me to get out of the bathroom to ask me a question.
I was like, “Space, people. Seriously, I am a human. Let me go to the bathroom.” It was that bad. I finally said to myself, “I can't do this anymore. I cannot continue in this way.” My youngest was fourteen and starting high school. I knew that she was going to be gone in a few years. I made the choice to merge my practice with two other guys. I moved to California and I decided I'm going to give myself space to breathe. I'm never, ever putting myself into that position ever again. Now, I’ve designed a life where I create videos and I have a program that's downloadable and prerecorded. I do a very limited number of one-on-one coaching sessions. I hold a certain number of spaces open on my calendar for that. When they're filled, that's it. They have to go to the next one, whatever it is. I’m very vigilant about that because it was to the point of making myself sick. I had auto-immune issues and all kinds of things. Finding that balance is so critical.
I love that, “Stop doing it to yourself.” I love that you're telling people, “You have to set the healthy boundaries.” When people go, “The boss told me this.” No, they didn't. You can always say, “They have to work on Christmas.” Did they volunteer? I love that you said healthy boundaries because there's nothing more important than taking care of that because then you can't create if you're tired or burned out.
Like-Minded People: If you ask God, the universe, and whoever it is that you talk to out in the ether to bring your goals to you, then it will come.
It's not even fair. Integrity is very important to me. It's something that is one of my core values. For me to not be 100% and show up and give my clients 110%, it felt like that's not good enough. I felt like if I can't do that, then it's not fair to them. I don't want to do that.
You were probably getting tired too because you were deviating from your convictions. I tell people that too. If you're getting emotionally weary, you probably need to dial in your value somewhere because you're starting to get a little scope creep. You need to get back on true North, and then that tends to give you this energy
I'm so much fulfilled now because I'm helping people all over the world. I had to get over my own thing. I remember having this conversation with my business coach who also happens to be one of my best friends. I said, “I feel like the only way I can make money is being a lawyer. I feel like I can't make money in any other way.” She said, “It's the brain remembering.” I thought that was such a powerful thing because she was like, “It's not the law practice that's making the money. It was you. You have the ability to make money in whatever way you decide that you want to make money.”
My dad said something similar. He'd say, “Tracey, the job doesn't make you. You make the job. Wherever you go, you bring your brain with you. You're going to implant that wherever you go.”
It's the ability to tap into whatever source is for people. Some people call it God or others call it the universe. Even if it's tapping into the energy of the world, however you want to put it, it's learning how to tap into and aligning your soul with that.
I love what you said, serve your soul. I love that when you were talking earlier about it, not to ruminate. We did loneliness. We did weariness. The next thing my dad talked about in leadership is abandonment. I know abandonment typically has a negative connotation but his point was we need to stop thinking about what we like and want to think about in favor of what we ought and need to think about. It was more of like this intense hyper-focus because we only have a certain amount of sources and resources in a day. What does abandonment mean to you and how do you stay on point?
I don't know. The only thing I can think of is when I was dealing with a lot of staff and I felt like I have to have this staff because I don't want to have to train somebody else. I don't want to have to be without somebody who can help me on this particular point. I don't want to have to explain to the community why my people left or whatever. Maybe look bad in some way. Maybe in some ways that was a fear of abandonment. What I ended up doing was keeping people who weren't in integrity, who weren't doing their jobs properly, who weren't necessarily responsible. All kinds of things that were out of alignment with myself and my own core values. I look the other way maybe because of that fear of abandonment and it ended up biting me always. If something is out of alignment with yourself, your own core values, and who you are, rip the Band-Aid off. It's not going to get better in the end.
Like-Minded People: The very first step of developing your strategy is creating your vision and goal.
I can't believe you said that. For our readers out there, I will echo what Rebecca said. You can feel it, you know it, and I never thought of it. I inherited a second-generation business and a lot of things. I'm like, “If I change it up or get rid of this, even though it may not be working right, is it going to look like, ‘Tracey's the mean one.’” in the end, it's going to play out. The sooner that you know that we're not aligned, you're not all in, it probably worked before, but I see it new because I'm an outsider. I can't believe you said that. That resonated with me and I know that's going to resonate for a lot of our readers too.
It ended up biting me in the end. You can't fix it either. People are out of alignment. I even tried to bring in my business coach to work with them. I tried to motivate in different ways. I try giving them what they wanted, and all these things. If they're not there, if they don't have those core values that you have, you can't feed it to them. You can't give it to them. You can't motivate them from within. It doesn't happen.
You said that you can't instill values. You can't feed character. You can nurture it and develop it, but you can't feed values. There's a leadership literature, value congruence. I always tell people, “When you take that job, don't look at the paycheck. Make sure that you're all-in with their culture, their values, and people are all over the space because otherwise, it's not going to be well with your soul, and there’s going to be a rub. You're eventually going to have to leave because it's not your company.”
If it is your company, you are eventually going to have to fire them. A lot of times, you've fed the beast for so long that they're incensed by the fact that you're firing them because they felt entitled.
Thank you for your transparency in saying that because that is what will happen. For you guys that are out there, I'm glad you're reading because you're probably thinking, “She just spoke that word to me.” Trust me, I will echo everything she said and it will not be pretty. The sooner you can address this, the better. Thank you. Loneliness, weariness, abandonment. The last thing my dad talked about was vision. I know vision for me, I was always like, “I'm an operations girl. I'm not a visionary,” but his point was that vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it. There's this very much a creative but also this very pragmatic application side. How do you stay on your vision? How do you amplify your vision and get rid of your vision blockers?
I keep it on the forefront of my mind at all times. I can show you right now that here's my vision for this year. I keep it right in front of me on a little piece of paper. I look at it all day long. I know what my why is. I know what my goals are. I look at my SLAY program about developing strategy, leverage, anticipating, and focusing on you, your case, and your vision. That's what the SLAY methodology is. The very first step of developing your strategy is creating your vision and your goal. Where are you going? Sometimes people get so mired in nowadays fires, whatever they are, “I need to put out this fire or that fire or this. Why is this happening? Why is that happening where I’ve got this emergency on my plate?” They forget to figure out where they want to go. Random driving equals random destination. Put that in the GPS, where you want to go.
We don't want to be the boxcar derby where they wreck cars. We want to be NASCAR where they know where to go. They know when to pull over and they stay on that track because otherwise, it's like a boxcar where you're crashing and driving all over the place.
I don't know if this is like an age analogy these days. Maybe these don't even exist anymore. When I was a kid, they had these bumper cars and invariably, you would end up in the one that was stuck over in the corner. They weren't going anywhere. You didn't know how to steer or where am I going?
Like-Minded People: If other people don't have those core values that you have, you can't feed it to them.
Don't get mired in the fire nowadays. Very well said, Rebecca. I love it. I love that you have the goal. You got to know where you're driving to and you have it right in front of you first and foremost, reading it, thinking it. Anything that comes across your plate, then you can go, “Is this congruent with where I want to go? Yes or no.” I had somebody else tell me, “Park it. Maybe next year. Maybe another quarter.” We're entrepreneurs, so we like to try new things like, “I'd like to try that,” but don't go too far because you have to stay on point.
Having a strong vision and I always say, “Get specific about your vision,” because if you go into a restaurant and you say food to the server, the server is not going to know what it is that you want. You're going to have to go in there and say, “I want the steak and I want it medium-rare. I want a little bit of warm red center. I want this on the side and I want it like that. I want the salad without the croutons.” You got to get specific, otherwise, you don't know where you're going.
We need to be single-minded in our focus. I love it. We covered the four prices of leadership and I thank you for the tremendous insights you gave us and your leadership journey. Anything else you want to share with our audience, with our readers? Any words of wisdom or experiences you'd like to leave them with?
When you were going to negotiate with anyone, whether it's a narcissist or anyone, there are two things that I always say. One is that you and you alone define your value. If you think that the other side is going to do it for you or hand you anything, it isn’t going to work that way because they're out to find value for themselves. You have to provide value in order to get value. You also have to decide what your value is so that they feel like they want to give you something in return. Nobody wants the K-Mart Blue Light Special. Nobody wants the crap that's left on the clearance rack. That's why it's $2.
You have to define yourself as a person of value and why the other person should be giving you anything in return. That's number one. Number two is people will think what you tell them to think. It's so simple but true and powerful. If you tell them to think that you're afraid or that you're fearful in any way and, “I'm sorry for asking this but maybe you could possibly give me something,” if you come up like that, you're not going to get it because you come off like the K-Mart Blue Light Special. You have to say, “This is who I am.” That's how people will see you. You define how people see you. People will think what you tell them to think.
How do people get in touch with you? Tell them about your books, your podcast, all that good stuff. What's the best way for people to reach out to you?
My website is RebeccaZung.com and I have all kinds of things there. I do have a free Crush My Negotiation prep worksheet for your readers. It's at WinMyNegotiation.com. It's something super easy. If you want to win your negotiation, go to there. It's an eBook. It's fifteen pages it's totally free and I’ve given it away to thousands of people now at this point. Follow me and subscribe to my YouTube channel at YouTube.com/rebeccazung. If you put in Negotiating with A Narcissist in YouTube, you'll see thousands of my videos pop right on up.
I have two books. Negotiate Like You M.A.T.T.E.R. The foreword was written by Robert Shapiro. I have Breaking Free: A Step-By-Step Divorce Guide. Both of those can be found on Amazon or anywhere you buy books, BarnesAndNoble.com and everywhere. I have a podcast Negotiate Your Best Life. I'm on Instagram at @RebeccaZung. I do have a private Facebook group, which if people want to join, they're certainly welcome to join. There are lots and lots of activity there and people supporting each other all day every day. That's Narcissist Negotiators with Rebecca Zung.
For our readers out there, please be sure and reach out to Rebecca. I have listened to many her videos and downloaded the sheet and it's an incredible resource. Go over to her channel and subscribe. Thank you, Rebecca, for being a part of our interview.
Thank you so much for having me.
You're so welcome. To our leaders out there, thank you for paying the price of leadership. Be sure if you like what you heard, hit that subscribe button. If you would do us an honor of a review, we would be so thankful. Go on over to Tremendous Leadership and you can download free two weeks of eBlasts, and get into all of these YouTube videos so you can learn all about leaders on the show. Thank you so much. Have a tremendous rest of the day.
Important Links:
Mark Victor Hansen - Past episode
Narcissist Negotiators with Rebecca Zung - Facebook Group
Rebecca Zung - Website
Rebecca Zung - Facebook
Rebecca Zung - Instagram
Rebecca Zung - Twitter
Rebecca Zung - LinkedIn
About Rebecca Zung
Rebecca Zung is one of the Top 1% of attorneys in the nation, having been recognized by U.S. News & World Report as a "Best Lawyer in America", as "Legal Elite" by Trend Magazine, and recognized by her peers and the judiciary as AV(c), preeminent rated in family law, the highest possible rating for an attorney by Martindale Hubbell.
But her journey wasn’t always easy. Married at 19 the first time, she had 3 children by the age of 23 and then was a divorced single mom when she decided to go back to law school. She went from being a single mom, college dropout, to becoming one the most powerful lawyers in the country at the helm of a multi-million dollar practice. She is now committed to sharing her secrets and empowering others to live their lives at their optimum level of success, professionally and personally.
She is the author of the bestselling books, Negotiate Like You M.A.T.T.E.R.: The Sure Fire Method to Step Up and Win (foreword by Robert Shapiro) and Breaking Free: A Step-by-Step Divorce Guide for Achieving Emotional, Physical, and Spiritual Freedom, and is a sought after major media contributor. Her perspectives are in high demand by television and print outlets, as she has been featured in or on Extra, Forbes, Huffington Post, Newsweek, Time, Dr. Drew, NPR Talk Radio, Good Day New York, and CBS Los Angeles among others.
Now, Rebecca remains a partner in Long, Murphy & Zung, and is based in Los Angeles and Florida. She is continuing to serve through her incredible on-demand programs such as SLAY Your Negotiation™ With a Narcissist, and the Breaking Free™ Divorce Masterclasses. She is also the host of the popular show Negotiate Your Best Life™ which is available on YouTube and as a Top Podcast, and also is a frequent keynote speaker.