One of the best attributes of a good leader is their ability to listen well. What better way to explain this than musical metaphors? In this episode, Dr. Tracey Jones sits down with Stephen Kohler, the founder and CEO of Audira, an experiential CEO coaching and leadership organization that uses musicality and interactiveness to teach leaders the power of true listening. Here, Stephen shares with us the importance of listening for leaders, taking lessons learned from music on balance and staying focused, and applying it to your team. He also talks about the price had to pay for leadership—from loneliness and weariness to abandonment things in between—and how he is overcoming them.
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Leadership Lessons From Music: The Power Of Listening With Stephen Kohler
Our guest is Stephen Kohler. Stephen is the Founder and CEO of Audira, which is an experiential CEO coaching and leadership organization that uses musicality and interactiveness to teach leaders the power of true listening. This is a beautiful interview. You're going to love it. He uses a ton of musical metaphors. I'm excited for you to learn about what it took him to pay the price of leadership.
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I am excited because my guest is Stephen Kohler. Stephen is Audira’s Founder and CEO. He'll tell us about what that means and where he got that name from. He brings passion for people, along with years of extensive corporate experience within organizations ranging from startups to Fortune 100s and across multiple industries. His credentials include an MBA from the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business, a BA in philosophy from Northwestern University. Stephen is also a certified professional coach and a balanced scorecard professional. His passions include spending time with his wife, his two children, and his two dogs. We share a big love of that because I have my own pack. He's a lifelong musician, you're going to learn a lot about that. An avid barbecue enthusiast and loves traveling the world. Stephen, thank you for being here.
Thank you, Tracey. It's a true honor to be here. I'm thrilled to join you for this session.
We're going to jam together. That's what our leaders are here to talk about. My dad wrote a speech called The Price of Leadership and it was the one he spoke the most. He was known as a motivator and enthusiast. He was also pragmatic. I know this is going to be fun. Let's talk about what it's going to entail. He drew a lot of people because he was real about it. In the price of leadership, Stephen, he lists four different things if you want to sit in the leadership sit. You're going to have to be willing to pay that price.
The first one that he talks about is loneliness. We don't like that loneliness word. We've heard that growing up, “It's lonely at the top.” Can you unpack for me, in your years of experience, even in what you're doing now? I know you have started Audira in the last couple of years. You probably had to step out on your own yet again. Could you unpack what loneliness means for you as a leader, how you deal with it, maybe if you've been through it? What would you share with our leaders who are reading that perhaps are in a season of loneliness?
Dr. Jones, I appreciate the question because the topic of loneliness is not one that we, frankly, talk enough about in leadership. When I think about my own journey, in terms of that loneliness question, the first quote I think about is, “It's lonely at the top.” Specifically, what I would reflect on is this idea that many of us, myself included, had spent part of our leadership journey not living in accordance with values. In my own case, when I did not lead in accordance with my values, perhaps I was enrolled that I did not find fulfilling, perhaps I was an organization that did not share my values. For me, the impact was absolute loneliness.
A big part and what all of us can do as leaders are get back to our values, what's meaningful to us, what is our core sense of purpose, what is our why. Once we start to reconnect with that, that's when you start to find a connection. I also think about, particularly for those of us that are doing something entrepreneurially or innovation, there's a lot of loneliness in that, too. In my case, I did what many thought was crazy by leaving a corporate secure corporate job, a comfortable job with a nice income. There was a lot of loneliness in that because everybody thought I was nuts. In many ways, they told me that. In some ways, as leaders, we have to face that loneliness because by doing something bold and something different, you're going to see a lot of people disconnect. We have to maintain that sense of connection to values, purpose and perseverance. I'm thrilled that I was able to do that.
Getting my PhD in leadership, there's this thing and self-efficacy, which what motivates us. I don't care if I'm in this alone as long as I can find my purpose. There's a term called value congruence, which means you have to be in an organization with people that you have shared values. When we’re not there, it's like trying to put on a shoe that's pinchy. When I have felt my loneliness is when I was in organizations where I knew this was not a good fit. Even though I made the most money, had the highest title, had the biggest people around me, I still felt incredibly lonely. I love how you shared that. That was insightful. When you have your values, whatever else you have, you have that. That drives you until you start attracting the rest of the tribe around you.
I love what you're pointing to because a big part of our firm, our mission at Audira, is to do that listening. As an aside, Audira in Latin means to listen. What our organization works on and doing is for all of us to listen to what's important. In my own journey, as I made that transition out of corporate and to becoming a leader of my own organization, I had to listen to what it was that was not congruent. As I listened to what was awake with me, it was about serving others, leveraging a lot of the gifts that I had that quite frankly, for many years, I told myself was a liability. For example, I did some leadership assessments and I had this thing that was off the charts for empathy. The challenge was I was in a role where they told me that was a downside, I was too kind. I had the story in my head. The power that we all have is to listen to those values and think about what we're drawn to do. That will allow us to attract those around us that share those values.
I thought, growing up, “Bigger is better.” Bigger organizations. Bigger bureaucracies. I found out that this is not good. I could drive it so far and then I kept hitting the wall and I jumped to another big entity. For me, it was twenty years of doing something for somebody else until I finally was like, “I cannot do this anymore.” Twelve of them were even in the military. I love the military, but that's a bureaucratic organization, too. There are probably some readers out there, many of us have already transitioned and we're like, “We get it.” How long did it take you before you finally said, “It's time to make that call?”
Twenty-five years. There were many moments throughout that period where I felt like something wasn't right. I'll be honest. I had a lot of fear. I had a lot of uncertainty about making that big change. Finally, I got to the point where I said, “I cannot do another moment of this.” I'll pass on some wisdom that I have. I have an older brother who's a surgeon. He sees life and death every day. He said something to me that I'll never forget. He said, “Stephen, life is incredibly short. It's up to us to determine how we want to use these few remaining years that we have on this planet. Do you want to live it with joy, passion and purpose or do you want to live with something that doesn't fill your heart up?” I said, “That was enough.”
The Good Book says, “Life is a breath.” Even God knows it's just a breath. One of the things that finally catapulted me to move back was my father's passing. One of the worst experiences of my life and finally, I'm like, “I don't know what else to do. I'm forlorn. I'm going to go home.” It isn’t always a thought-out thing. I can remember being like you and going into work one day and going, “I don't care if you gave me $1 million a day. I can't do this anymore.” It's a beautiful thing and it's a scary thing. It's your inner seed and whatever is about to come out and letting you know it's time, and that's beautiful. I love that it took you 25 years. Let it work its way out of you. You don't have to make it abrupt and transition if you can. It's okay if you're like, “I've already been 25 years,” so what?
There's no right time. The biggest thing is you have to listen to your spirit, your gut, your intuition, your faith, but do that listening. The other thing in reflecting on loneliness, one of the stories that many of us tell ourselves and I told myself that is that I was on my own. I was alone. I couldn't ask for help. I work a lot of musical metaphors into the work that I do as a musician. My invitation to all of us reading would be, remember that you have an ensemble. Think about who you can invite or who you already have in your ensemble. If you're the violin player, who's the percussionist? Who's that keyboard player? Who's that flutist? I promise you, if you think about it, you have others that are either there or that you can invite to support you.
Power Of Listening: As leaders, we have to face that loneliness because by doing something bold and different, you're going to see a lot of people disconnect.
Let's transition that into the second topic, which was weariness. I play the violin and cello. It would be tough trying to be an orchestra of one and playing all the parts by myself. I love that metaphor of the ensemble because together is how we fill the universe with music. I know you hinted at it with that. How do you stay refreshed? It is tough. Leadership is hard. We're mere mortal coils. How do you do it?
It's a question that I've been thinking about particularly every day due to COVID-19 and the context we find ourselves in. The word that I would use from a musical metaphor would be that of sonic balance. If you're thinking about a musical composition, you have different elements. You have the low frequencies. You have the mid and you have the high. You have different instruments. Often, as musicians, we're taught with ear training to notice what might be missing or what might be maybe a little too loud or a little too soft.
Why do I bring that back to our lives as leaders? What all of us need, in different ways, is to find when we're out of that balance. When are we in balance and when are we not in balance? What I've done in my own case is I've identified what I'm thinking in my body in general when I'm at balance and when I'm not. I've identified what I can do to refuel myself or rebalance. I'm a practicer of this mind, body, spirit philosophy that many of your readers are well attuned to. What I create for myself is an intention every day to make sure that I'm at least doing 1 or maybe 2 of those things to keep my body in balance. They’re something physical. I love to exercise. I love to run. Even if it's a walk outside or walk around the neighborhood with my dogs and children, I'll do something physical. I'll do something intellectual to get my mind challenged and recharged. I'll do something where I learn. I love to learn. I'll read a book. I'll take an online class.
Third, I'll do something emotionally or spiritually fulfilling. As a musician, I'll play my guitar. I'll roll around the floor of my kids. Even if each one of those things is maybe 5, 10 minutes, I find that they put me back in balance. That is a beautiful antidote to this weariness. We all get fatigued. We all get drained in our cup. The question is, how will we move past that? I would invite all of us to think about those activities and find what works for you.
I love the musical metaphor of balance. Lena Horne, a beautiful singer, one of her favorite quotes about weariness that I always go back to, “It's not the load, it's the way we carry it.” Spread it. Get help. Stay in balance. When you're out of balance, you can hear it. That's a brilliant musical metaphor. I love it. We talked about loneliness. We talked about weariness. The next price of leadership my father talks about is abandonment.
A lot of times, we hear about fear of abandonment or there's this negative connotation of abandonment. You're a pet lover, too. You’re a parent. We don't want to abandon things. What he was talking about is this intense, purposeful focus. We need to stop thinking about what we like and want to think about in favor of what we need and ought to think about. Stephen, with all your transitions, all the things and you're growing your business, how do you stay finely tuned on what you need to stay focused on?
I love the question, it’s probably the one where I've spent the most time and reflection. I think about this idea of purpose. If I were to use a musical metaphor again, I might say as composers, you create a musical piece with a designed impact that you want to create on the audience. When I'm feeling perhaps that I'm drifting or abandoning from my core purpose getting back to that, what is that key signature, that melody that keeps me on track? What is the desired impact that I want to have? Coming always back to that purpose is powerful. The other thing that I'm aware of is that all of us humans have these narratives in our heads. You might call them saboteurs. You might call them self-talk. Sometimes, the saboteurs might talk about others around us is abandoning us or that we're feeling abandoned.
What I would invite others to recognize is that often that's a story that we're telling ourselves. We have the opportunity to reflect on, rather than what we don't have, what we do have. Starting from a place of gratitude, starting from a place of possibility, and starting from a place of curiosity and shifting that mindset from feeling one of, perhaps, lack to one of abundance. I'm a big believer in a mindset of abundance. Those two things of staying on purpose, what is that desired impact? Secondly, how can I reconnect with those around me?
I am a leader. I have done this. I do a lot of research on people that are in an organization. Just like love, the first six months you're on a high, your endorphins, your dopamine, even starting a new job. We go through this cycle. We have these highs and lows. I want to unpack that, when we think people are abandoning us. It seems after a certain amount of time, even if you have the Dream Team, you get to a point where you're like, “Something is not dreamy anymore.” Are they going to bolt? Are they going to stay?
I could not agree more when you say, “Focus on what we do have and not what we don't have.” When you have felt this in the past, did you say something to them? It's good to unpack. Fear of abandonment, that's one of my triggers. I'm always going to go to that, “This person is going to bolt.” I got to stay on top of that. When you see this in your team, do you go to them and say, “Are you checking out on me? You were once all in. You were once a key player. You're dropping back to second chair.” How do you handle that?
One of the biggest things that showed up, particularly due to COVID, many of us working virtually is this context of what I would say is, how do we stay connected? It relates to your question so much because I've seen a lot of organizations and a lot of teams struggling with that sense of connection. In many cases, leaders and individuals with intense feeling disconnect and abandoned. I'm a big believer in checking in early and often.
I'll share my thoughts on this. The first thing to do is creating what you might call a co-designed or designed alliance. It can be with a direct report. It can be with a family member. It can be with your team. You set up a series of agreements. What is our mission, vision, and values as a team, as a relationship? What agreements or accountabilities we want to hold one another to? Most importantly, check-in regularly with that because life gets in the way. You're going to have these highs and lows. You're going to get pulled apart. There are going to be some disagreements.
The other thing that often happens is that we humans are what some people call assumption making machines. We as human creatures will make 1,000 assumptions a day. Many of those assumptions serve us but some of them don't, particularly as it relates to relationships with others. Why do I mention this? Checking in on these assumptions that we're carrying around somebody else that we're in a relationship with on a team or whatever is powerful. It's easy. You can say something like, “John or Susan, I've got this story in my head. My story is that you're checked out. You're not motivated. My story is that I'm not serving you as a leader. I want to bounce that off you to see if I'm right at all.” Checking in and clearing those assumptions and then redesigning those agreements is powerful.
The Good Book: A Humanist Bible
COVID stinks. For a lot of us, as entrepreneurs, it hasn't been business as usual. It's been a lot more business as usual for most people because we're entrepreneurs. We have this free form, maybe we show up or maybe we don't. It's still important. Remember, it has pulled us apart. I appreciate you. We want to be able to be all over the world. We can operate anywhere, but yet we still, as teams, have been pulled apart and not working. I love that checking in. I am the worst about jumping to assumptions and filling in the blank. I love that you say to somebody, “My story is this. Is this what I'm hearing?” Give a chance to unpack it and find out where people are. The story is the reality. The sooner you find out what it is, then you can both do something about it. Either reunite or realize, “This chapter has ended. This is the end of this composition and we're going to start doing something else.”
We are talking about abandonment. I love that with the connectedness and checking in. I love the design alliances. It’s interesting stuff. I read a lot about disengagement in the workplace and it happens. It's important to sit down with people and say, “Where did I lose you? Are you still with me? Is there something I'm doing?” At least get a chance to unpack it. Sometimes, we need to do that even in our relationships. You're married. How many times you have to sit there and say, “Is everything okay? Are we good?” We think at work and it stays good. That's not how it works.
As leaders, we have permission, we have responsibility, quite frankly, to keep checking in and redesigning on that shared vision that we have. If I were to use a musical metaphor, I might say, “We've been playing this particular piece or playing together and it’s starting to feel a little stale.” What do we do to get back to that sense of joint passion? Maybe we change key. Maybe we change instruments to keep it fresh. We change venues. Something to reinvigorate. It's up to us, as leaders, to make that shift.
You are the first leader that I've had on that hit in the abandonment of people in that sense. Thank you for that because that is a real thing for leaders out there. Even if you have found that great life co-partner to get you through it, even those guys, I'm sure there have been times where they looked at each other and said, “Should we even keep doing what we're doing together?” Thank you for your authenticity and your honesty in that. Lastly, my father talked about vision. A lot of people will sit there and say, “I'm not a visionary.” My dad said, “Vision is seeing what needs to be done and then doing it.” You've got this creative side, but then you also have this integration and execution. How do you craft the vision? How do you get clarity on that, Stephen?
I've got a three-letter acronym that I come back to and it's called the three V's. It starts with your values, as we talked about. Reflecting on what's important to you. I'll provide a little case study for my own case. I had values that I reflected about serving others. Truly listening and bringing creativity is a way to help others grow. The reason I mentioned that, from my values, I was then able to create a vision for myself and both individually and as a business. I wanted to transform and take this passion for people my skills, both as a corporate leader but also empathetic and then my creativity and bring those into helping leaders, teams, and organizations amplify their leadership. That was the vision I created off of my values.
The third V that I would encourage people to think about as they're constructing that vision is what I call variables. Variables are those things, the practical things, the trade-offs that we have to take into mind when we're taking that vision forward. One obvious variable might be money. How much money am I going to need to withhold my lifestyle? Family time. How am I going to be able to support myself as a leader at home as well as a leader in my community? Another variable might be culture. What culture either do I want to create for my company or if I'm within an organization?
Think about these variables or trade-offs that are important to you when you create this vision. As a strategist myself, one of the most important questions you can ask yourself is, “What will I not tolerate? What will I say no to?” As you're thinking about this vision, what are those variables that you're going to say no to? These are off-limits. These are boundaries. I will not compromise. Values, vision, and variables are important to think about.
A lot of times, I've even heard with strategic plans and stuff. Tell people, “Here's the no go. Here are the bounded lanes.” Let the CEO say, “I don't want you to wind up in the news. I don't want this. Everything else is free reign.” I thought that gives people the ownership and the creativity rather than saying, “You will do this. You will do that.” You can't anticipate enough of that stuff because there are the variables. One of my favorite books is by Henry Cloud called Boundaries. We get ourselves into bad situations, mission drift or burnout because we don't stay within those boundaries.
The last thing I might offer around vision, and there are a few different ways you can think about this, I'm a big believer in putting yourself in your mind's eye at the end of your journey looking back. That could be at your retirement party. That could be as your transition to the great beyond, whatever your beliefs might be. Looking back and saying, “What would I like to be able to say that moment is like? What will I have created? What's the impact I would have created?” That is a powerful way to cut them back and to say, “This is what my vision looks like.” You can create a course, short, medium, and long-term. You can say, “In three months, this is my vision. In three years, this is my vision. At the end of my journey, this is my vision.” The other thing is I believe it can change and it can evolve. What your vision now can evolve and that's perfectly okay.
We tell people that. As we evolve, as we ascend different peaks, we're going to suit up differently. There's going to be different traveling partners. You may get the call from God or whoever, “Mission accomplished.” I have changed many different things in my life. Because I knew quite frankly, like you, this is done. There's nothing more to be gotten out of this. Ecclesiastes is like that. To everything, there's a season. When people get fixated on something, you got to stay open to whatever the universe is going to bring you. Life is one big journey.
I love your word about seasons because that shows that life is an ongoing journey, things change. It's not necessarily a checklist that you're trying to hit. There's always something more to learn.
Part of that is how we get through the seasons of drought, the winter, the bountiful harvest, how we prune. It's such a beautiful metaphor for life. These are all seasons as leaders that we go through. Even if this is the final thing you create and you sell it for $50 gazillion, you're still going to keep going through the seasons. It’s like writing a symphony. There are these beautiful different sections, segments, pieces, tempos, and emotions. That's what life is.
Some may even argue with COVID, we are absolutely in a season. I find that as leaders, we can always ask ourselves, “What's the gift? What is the universe trying to teach us or maybe ask of us right now?” The season, so to speak, is a big emblematic aspect of that.
Stephen, thank you for your thoughts on vision and your values, your vision, your variables. It’s brilliant. I know our leaders who are reading are going to be able to take that and apply it. I love tools. You can tell me everything, but I'm like, “What am I supposed to do with this?” I love how you shared your story of how you did that. Is there anything else that we haven't covered on the price of leadership or in your leadership journey that you would love to share with our readers?
Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life
I will simply echo what I believe and what certainly our firm emphasizes that this power of listening that we all have. I believe that we're at a time in our society even before COVID with social media and the 24/7 news cycle, we are overwhelmed with what I would call noise, distraction, and cacophony. What we can do as leaders is truly listen. Level one is where most of us sit. We're stuck in our heads. We're distracted. We're stuck on ourselves. We're focused on our own instrument if you will. We have the option to transcend to level two or level three.
Level two is when we start to open up to other musicians or leaders around us and start to play what we might call a call and response with others and tune into others. That's important. It's not sufficient. Level three is when we open ourselves up to the space, to the environment, to the orchestra hall. What I feel like we all can do as leaders more than ever is getting to that level three. Truly listen to ourselves, to our partners around us, and to our ensemble and recognize what's needed and what will I do? That's the most important thing.
There’s so much noise. Dial-in to what you need to listen to. Back to abandonment, you're going to set healthy boundaries about what noise you're going to let come in because not all noises out there are created equal. To try and take it all in, it's going to create more dysfunction and disharmony. I love getting clear on what you need to be hearing and opening up to. For all the trash out there, there's so much beauty, good, and wisdom. I tell people and I'm like, “Why do you listen to that trash? Trash in, trash out. There are 50 gazillion books, documentaries, peer-review journals, and music. Why do you allow that stuff to go into your head? There are many brilliant, critical thinking, compassionate voices out there. Dial into them and forget everybody else.”
Tune in.
Stephen, how can people find out about you and Audira Labs if they want to work with you? Tell them a little bit about how would they work with you. What would you do with them?
The easiest way to get in touch is you can email me or find me on my website. My email is SKohler@AudiraLabs.com. You can also connect with us directly on our website. We offer two primary ways to amplify leadership. One is through transformative one-on-one executive coaching where we help leaders unpack and become unstuck to the leaders they can be. We also do experiential workshops where we use music as a lens to help teams and organizations expand. We bring in music and instruments and all sorts of fun and creative ways to help leaders grow their leadership. Please feel free to reach out to me via website or email. I look forward to jamming with everybody.
Can people do it even if they can't carry a tune in a bucket or have never played a musical instrument, even a kazoo?
They sure can. In fact, it's primarily designed for non-musicians. We have a lot of fun ways to help leaders unpack that.
For our readers out there, please check out Stephen’s website. I did check out a lot of stuff. I love music so I was fascinated by it. He makes it available to everybody. Thank you, Stephen, for your incredible insights. Thank you for what you're doing to help leaders unlock to become better leaders. We all know, a stronger leader means stronger teams, stronger homes, stronger ministries, stronger pets, stronger everything.
Thank you. I wish everybody an amazing, productive, and melodic future going forward.
If you like what you’ve read, please hit the subscribe button. Do us the honor of a rating. Leave us a note about something about this interview that you like. Please reach out to Stephen, too. Check us out on TremendousLeadership.com. Thank you for being part of our Tremendous Tribe. Thank you for being a positive force in the universe, living tremendously, and listening to all the sweet music out there, and creating it yourselves. Thanks, everybody.
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About Stephen Kohler
Passionate and intuitive certified executive coach, leadership team facilitator and corporate strategist with 25 years of executive-level global business leadership experience within consumer durable, packaged goods and technology industries. Expertise in managing P&Ls, driving innovation and building high performing cross-functional teams. Exceptional leadership skills with a passion for mentoring and bringing diverse global stakeholders together. M.B.A. from University of Chicago Booth School of Business and B.A. from Northwestern University. Certified Professional Coach (PCC, CPCC), Certified Strategic Planning Professional (BSP) and Certified in LEA 360 feedback.
Specialties: leadership development, global brand & product management, strategic planning, product development, digital marketing, cross functional team leadership, communication